The Paddy Kisnorbo thread

[Mr MO]

54 minutes ago, MHFC-FAN said:

I assume the top post you are referring to the Puccareli debacle? That's a big head scratcher and is nothing but a failure of scouting/coaching and waste of visa spot. 

I could see the Sydney syndrome becoming an issue if we were to keep persisting with the likes of Jamieson, Griffiths although he is bench etc. We are not quite in Sydneys position just yet. 

Yes fully agree, however by the time you acknowledge that situation it’s too way late. I have very little faith considering the “stick to process, just worker hard and it worked last season” approach.

Would most of the fans still be so content if Shaun Evans acted like a normal referee?

Edited May 30, 2022 by Mr MO

[Tangerine]

I think most would agree that Erick Mombaerts left the club in a very healthy position: strong player list, good style, mentality and results. We finished second that year and lost a grand final. The next year under PK we went one better but arguably the league and Sydney were not as strong (so difficult to judge if we actually improved).

My question (particularly for those who think PK is doing a good job) is what are the things that have improved under PK, from where Mombaerts left us? Can you point to anything tangible in player list, style, tactics, decision making, individual performance, game managment? 

[MHFC-FAN]

6 minutes ago, Tangerine said:

Can you point to anything tangible in player list, style, tactics, decision making, individual performance, game managment? 

The trophy cabinet? 

[n i k o]

22 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I don't mind at all if it is directed at me. This is as far as possible an open Forum, and I actually think that this season, and changes to the squad during the off-season ahead should be discussed and debated at quite some length.

I guess all clubs have plans based on their resources. IMO though, all plans have to include a Plan B, otherwise you find yourself in a "First Day of the Somme" situation, relentlessly following a plan even though it is manifestly failing (and on the Somme dreadful and inconceivable loss of life).

Just focussing on the game plan for the moment, our game plan delivered a Premiership, and with it ACL football again next time around. Very good. It didn't deliver in the FFA Cup, the Group stage in Thailand, and now the Finals Series back here at home. All these were, if you like, short forms of competition. In such competitions there's basically no second chance - you don't play a weak team the next week and get three points that way.

I think that this season we have been very inflexible in our starting line-ups, and apparently unwilling to make substitutions and positional changes when that line-up doesn't deliver. At the 60-minute mark yesterday we were 2-0 down, and not looking like scoring. I cannot see any logical reason why we didn't, say, move Leckie to the centre, bring on Cola on the right wing, Tilio on the left, Bos as a left wing-back, and try and win the game. One goal and the pro-City crowd would have lifted and maybe we could have brought City home on the day. Why not go for it? It didn't matter if it didn't work, because we'd already lost the match as it stood. And there was no second leg, no catch-up match next week, no second chance.

There's nothing wrong with having a game plan, but you have to be prepared to be flexible when it's not delivering. And Kisnorbo is not sufficiently flexible.

Plan B certainly comes down to the coach I believe. The overall playing style or philosophy doesn’t change but the tactics, selections, surrounding the philosophy can be the plan b.

 

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, Tangerine said:

I think most would agree that Erick Mombaerts left the club in a very healthy position: strong player list, good style, mentality and results. We finished second that year and lost a grand final. The next year under PK we went one better but arguably the league and Sydney were not as strong (so difficult to judge if we actually improved).

My question (particularly for those who think PK is doing a good job) is what are the things that have improved under PK, from where Mombaerts left us? Can you point to anything tangible in player list, style, tactics, decision making, individual performance, game managment? 

 

2 hours ago, MHFC-FAN said:

The trophy cabinet? 

IMO a better question would be what are the things that have improved in the second season of PK's tenure?

That asked, I think we all know that it is extremely unlikely that PK will be moved on. It would not be the "City way" - and that is not a sarcastic comment. It is just not the way that CFG operates.

In terms of what he has to do to improve, I'd say most of us agree that he has to be more flexible on match-day. He has to learn that it's not just the way he wants us to play that counts, but he has to take account of how that works on the day and be prepared to change tack when it blatantly isn't. When @bt50 makes that comment about the GF, and he is a better student of the game than I am, then I'm happy to go along with his opinion. And, please tell me what is more important for the senior coach to do than get it right on match-day? It's no use being wonderful on the training track if you can't handle match-day.

I also hold the view that "freezing out" players is not an adult approach to squad management, and I think that this needs to be resolved inside the club.

Finally I just want to comment about the ACL. We were actually in one of the weaker groups and I don't think it was an "achievement" to have been unbeaten. As for missing out because of some "bullshit rule," we knew about the rule beforehand, or should have done, and it was applied to every Eastern Zone group except the one from which the club withdrew. As it was, we missed out primarily because of Glover's howler; the GK situation was present the whole season and wasn't addressed. 

[heart1011]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

 

IMO a better question would be what are the things that have improved in the second season of PK's tenure?

That asked, I think we all know that it is extremely unlikely that PK will be moved on. It would not be the "City way" - and that is not a sarcastic comment. It is just not the way that CFG operates.

In terms of what he has to do to improve, I'd say most of us agree that he has to be more flexible on match-day. He has to learn that it's not just the way he wants us to play that counts, but he has to take account of how that works on the day and be prepared to change tack when it blatantly isn't. When @bt50 makes that comment about the GF, and he is a better student of the game than I am, then I'm happy to go along with his opinion. And, please tell me what is more important for the senior coach to do than get it right on match-day? It's no use being wonderful on the training track if you can't handle match-day.

I also hold the view that "freezing out" players is not an adult approach to squad management, and I think that this needs to be resolved inside the club.

Finally I just want to comment about the ACL. We were actually in one of the weaker groups and I don't think it was an "achievement" to have been unbeaten. As for missing out because of some "bullshit rule," we knew about the rule beforehand, or should have done, and it was applied to every Eastern Zone group except the one from which the club withdrew. As it was, we missed out primarily because of Glover's howler; the GK situation was present the whole season and wasn't addressed. 

110% agree with what you are saying and in particular in regards to Glover. They gave Sutton a crack and he was just as bad if not worse in my opinion. No idea what has happened to Glover of late. It's quite dissaapointing considering the way he played in that 2020 GF.. I thought it was a sign of things to come but since then he has drastically dropped off. He had patches of brilliance last season but honestly how many games did he cost us this season unfortunately.

[HughJass]

14 minutes ago, heart1011 said:

No idea what has happened to Glover of late.

Change of goalkeeper coach may had a influence, Redmayne at Sydney turned into a decent keeper and as soon as that coach left back to his old ways this season

[Torn Asunder]

If you look at this year compared to last in terms of tactics and use of subs its chalk and cheese.  

I think we really missed Des Buckingham.  I actually think he was the brains for the team last year, with Paddy being the one to fire the boys up.

I've mentioned it before, but the assistant coaches seemed to have very little say or influence this year.  I saw some disharmony on the sidelines when the tried to get PKs attention about subs, to the point where they looked to have cracked it.  I also noticed that this year, our LB / RB didn't come inside as much, and we were always reluctant to attack through the middle.  I remember many times when we had the ball in transition, and looked good for an attack, only to pass it sideways, often twice, which 99/100 killed any attacking momentum.

Personally, I just don't think he has it in him ... he has regressed, and when it came to the crunch, on pretty much every occasion he failed. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Torn Asunder

[MHFC-FAN]

3 minutes ago, Torn Asunder said:

If you look at this year compared to last in terms of tactics and use of subs its chalk and cheese.  

I think we really missed Des Buckingham.  I actually think he was the brains for the team last year, with Paddy being the one to fire the boys up.

I've mentioned it before, but the assistant coaches seemed to have very little say or influence this year.  I saw some disharmony on the sidelines when the tried to get PKs attention about subs, to the point where they looked to have cracked it.  I also noticed that this year, our LB / RB didn't come inside as much, and we were always reluctant to attack through the middle.  I remember many times when we had the ball in transition, and looked good for an attack, only to pass it sideways, often twice, which 99/100 killed any attacking momentum.

Personally, I just don't think he has it in him ... he has regressed, and when it came to the crunch, on pretty much every occasion he failed. 

This next coming season will be make or break for PK, he will likely have the squad capable of taking all accolades again and I don't see at this stage in time many excuses not to have a successful 3rd season...

[jw1739]

Just now, MHFC-FAN said:

This next coming season will be make or break for PK, he will likely have the squad capable of taking all accolades again and I don't see at this stage in time many excuses not to have a successful 3rd season...

I'd wait a bit if I were you. We don't know who's leaving yet, or who's coming in. Go though the list of those already contracted for next season and give your opinion on whether this season they played to, or above, your expectation (assuming that they were even given the chance to do so).

[K-aram92]

I think we can all agree that PK has had a poor season as manager. Lack of game management/use of subs, lack of squad rotation, lack of ability to recognise when momentum is against us and adjust accordingly etc. 

However he has given us our first premiership and championship as a club, so regardless of how poor he performed this season, he deserves another chance to rectify his flaws. 

I agree with those saying that next season will tell us a lot about where PK is in regards to coaching ability. He needs to sign new recruits well, show that he can utilise the full squad, use subs effectively and consistently, and show that he has a plan B. 

If he insists on this 'trust the process' nonsense, then we will have an even poorer season next season and then i think it'll be justified that we call for PK's sacking 

[jw1739]

6 minutes ago, K-aram92 said:

I think we can all agree that PK has had a poor season as manager. Lack of game management/use of subs, lack of squad rotation, lack of ability to recognise when momentum is against us and adjust accordingly etc. 

However he has given us our first premiership and championship as a club, so regardless of how poor he performed this season, he deserves another chance to rectify his flaws. 

I agree with those saying that next season will tell us a lot about where PK is in regards to coaching ability. He needs to sign new recruits well, show that he can utilise the full squad, use subs effectively and consistently, and show that he has a plan B. 

If he insists on this 'trust the process' nonsense, then we will have an even poorer season next season and then i think it'll be justified that we call for PK's sacking 

The only cautionary note I would sound is that I'm not sure what influence he actually has over recruitment. Petrillo's role includes "talent management" and likely visa players are sought by James Poole of CFG. It's Petrillo who normally appears when there's a signing photograph and a write-up about the new player. I'm not saying that PK is not involved or consulted in the process, but I'm not confident that he has the final say. But management of the squad is very much his responsibility. His job is to get the best out of the cattle that he has.

AFAIK PK is not in the same position as, say, JvS or Warren Joyce, who both had contacts in the management pool in Europe and could bring players to City's attention outside the CFG channels - and did.

[mjake1234]

16 hours ago, K-aram92 said:

I don't agree that "he has given us our first premiership and championship". I see it as the team winning despite PK rather than because of him. The momentum of the team has carried him through but now, after two years, the lack of any dynamic progression is starting to show.

 

[Le Hack]

I understand it was Joyce who actually recommended we get Jenkinson to come here, so you have a point about PK not having a pool of overseas contacts.

In regard to players who have improved this year, you would say Flo, maybe O'Neill because he missed so much last year, Gomulka because he played more games, and Tilio, again he played more games. Raphael could be classed the same. Nabbout borderline. All the others from last year have regressed in my opinion.

From the new crop, Leckie was a hit although early on he wasn't, Bos is a hit, Hall not bad for little time he had ( hope he stays as I think has upside), Jenkinson a hit but not like for like with Atkinson who we missed in the second half of the season. Pucci a miss, Endoh a miss, but both these guys we have no real idea. Same with Lesiotis what happened with him this season 

I think we definitely missed both Luna and Noone's drive this year, as much as we go on about having three Socceroos up front they weren't much better than last year's attack but that's probably due to JMacs's output being worse.

[moops]

I think we definitely missed Luna, Florin has been good this season, but doesn't do what Luna did, they are different players. I think Metcalf could have filled that roll, but was usually played to deep. There was a real difference when Metcalf played higher up the pitch, rather than being the holding midfielder.

Overall I think our biggest problem was movement, it seems to plague this team other than when we had Fornaroli and Mooy, the movement and transition was pretty good back then. But we relied heavily on those two during that time.

Did anyone watch the U23's play Kuwait? Trevor Morgan had them playing some pretty nice football and would probably beat the current Socceroos under Arnie. The point is the movement, press and passing was a joy to watch and created a lot of chances. Sure it's U23's and Kuwait, but the difference between the two national teams are massive.

Paddy has us playing closer to the Arnie book of playing than Trevor Morgans and I think that's the difference, a bit to predictable and restrictive.

[n i k o]

9 hours ago, moops said:

I think we definitely missed Luna, Florin has been good this season, but doesn't do what Luna did, they are different players. I think Metcalf could have filled that roll, but was usually played to deep. There was a real difference when Metcalf played higher up the pitch, rather than being the holding midfielder.

Overall I think our biggest problem was movement, it seems to plague this team other than when we had Fornaroli and Mooy, the movement and transition was pretty good back then. But we relied heavily on those two during that time.

Did anyone watch the U23's play Kuwait? Trevor Morgan had them playing some pretty nice football and would probably beat the current Socceroos under Arnie. The point is the movement, press and passing was a joy to watch and created a lot of chances. Sure it's U23's and Kuwait, but the difference between the two national teams are massive.

Paddy has us playing closer to the Arnie book of playing than Trevor Morgans and I think that's the difference, a bit to predictable and restrictive.

Makes me shudder at the thought of our play being from the book of play based off Arnie. I'd have to disagree with you there. However, completely agree about the transition in moving forward. I dont think we move the ball quick enough forward, I dont think our wingers are attacking with the ball this season like last season (would love to see the stats on 'take ons' for our wingers). And when watching our games I don't get the feeling when we move the ball forward that we will score, unlike last season. Nor do I feel like when we lose the ball we close down and win it back with the same intensity. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by n i k o

[fensaddler]

1 hour ago, n i k o said:

Makes me shudder at the thought of our play being from the book of play based off Arnie. I'd have to disagree with you there. However, completely agree about the transition in moving forward. I dont think we move the ball quick enough forward, I dont think our wingers are attacking with the ball this season like last season (would love to see the stats on 'take ons' for our wingers). And when watching our games I don't get the feeling when we move the ball forward that we will score, unlike last season. Nor do I feel like when we lose the ball we close down and win it back with the same intensity. 

There was a period in the middle of the season, when Florin and Leckie were both in form, when we did look like the real deal, and attacked with real intent. But I suspect we're also all remembering the rather flat finish to the season, as injuries and exhaustion and Malaysian weather all took their toll. We did struggle from the final derby onwards to look like a cohesive and genuinely threatening team, but there are reasons for that. Not defending everything, but with some tweaks to the squad and a more reasonable timetable, I don't think we're quite as bad as we think. We just limped over the line at the end of the season.

[MHFC-FAN]

4 hours ago, fensaddler said:

Malaysian weather all took their toll.

I don't think we're quite as bad as we think. We just limped over the line at the end of the season.

Thailand* is where the ACL was played, however the climates are pretty much identical. 

Yes we made the end of the season much more stressful than it needed to be. Could have probably wrapped it up similar time frame as last season. Dropping points from winning positions didn't help us out... 

[jw1739]

5 hours ago, fensaddler said:

There was a period in the middle of the season, when Florin and Leckie were both in form, when we did look like the real deal, and attacked with real intent. But I suspect we're also all remembering the rather flat finish to the season, as injuries and exhaustion and Malaysian weather all took their toll. We did struggle from the final derby onwards to look like a cohesive and genuinely threatening team, but there are reasons for that. Not defending everything, but with some tweaks to the squad and a more reasonable timetable, I don't think we're quite as bad as we think. We just limped over the line at the end of the season.

Yes. Another point is that once you do the double one season, expectation of the club rises and stays that way, just as it did when we lifted the FFA Cup. This is the same the world over and is a natural fan reaction. It will be the same next season - in particular, "just missing out" in the ACL won't be good enough next time.

[fensaddler]

1 hour ago, MHFC-FAN said:

Thailand* is where the ACL was played, however the climates are pretty much identical. 

Yes we made the end of the season much more stressful than it needed to be. Could have probably wrapped it up similar time frame as last season. Dropping points from winning positions didn't help us out... 

Yes there was a small voice nagging me that Malaysia was wrong...

[Mr MO]

When gone please? I want this club to progress not stagnate and go backwards.

[Mr MO]

This team needs another 2 or 3 quality players added (Preferably in all lines).

Will our front 3 suddenly gel and click? Those 3 seemed visibly frustrated on the park.

Otherwise PK will guaranteed take us another step back just like end of last season. 2nd full season in charge for PK in a full strength competition. Our ambition should be to dominate.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Mr MO

[HughJass]

How long before the fraud is sacked? Knowing City will see out the year.....

[Zanty]

49 minutes ago, HughJass said:

How long before the fraud is sacked? Knowing City will see out the year.....

depends where we are in the league, if we get to half way and we are not in the 6 or not even top 4 then he should be fired but lets wait and see

[Jovan]

Okay ive been pretty staunch with PK, but after last nights shitshow with our best players available and we put out that. 

He needs to be replaced. 

Won't happen before Christmas. 

[GreenSeater]

It’s frustrating knowing that this is an inevitability but also knowing that it isn’t going to happen any time soon. Paddy has the runs on the board in terms of trophies, despite the obvious issues, so sacking a coach who’s won two straight premierships and a championship is not exactly going to be an easy thing for the club to do

[MHFC-FAN]

12 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Okay ive been pretty staunch with PK, but after last nights shitshow with our best players available and we put out that. 

He needs to be replaced. 

Won't happen before Christmas. 

I suspect either this will be his last season regardless of how competitive we are this season. 

Don't see a 4th season healthy for the team and surely PK will want to try and have a go overseas. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by MHFC-FAN

[jw1739]

1 minute ago, GreenSeater said:

It’s frustrating knowing that this is an inevitability but also knowing that it isn’t going to happen any time soon. Paddy has the runs on the board in terms of trophies, despite the obvious issues, so sacking a coach who’s won two straight premierships and a championship is not exactly going to be an easy thing for the club to do

Appointing a coach is a lot easier than sacking one. Always. But you're dumb if you don't read the signs, and the signs have been there for quite some time now.

[Mr MO]

5 hours ago, GreenSeater said:

It’s frustrating knowing that this is an inevitability but also knowing that it isn’t going to happen any time soon. Paddy has the runs on the board in terms of trophies, despite the obvious issues, so sacking a coach who’s won two straight premierships and a championship is not exactly going to be an easy thing for the club to do

Looking at the body language of the senior players, the confusion and frustration on their faces - which is similar as last season means that the dressing room is long gone. This isn’t a team playing for their coach.

PK has set a downward path where the most successful season wasn’t done on his own merit. The falling out with players, rumoured support staff unwilling to work with him. Incompetence to read games and adjust strategy.

I can see plenty of arguments for an early separation in the world of football.

But yeah the CFG for Melbourne doesn’t have the reputation to act.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mr MO

[Le Hack]

You know what really annoys me with Paddy is his incessant snuffling and sniffing through his nose at press conferences. Combined with him talking bollocks in them it becomes particularly difficult to take him as a serious student of the game

[MHFC-FAN]

1 hour ago, Le Hack said:

You know what really annoys me with Paddy is his incessant snuffling and sniffing through his nose at press conferences. Combined with him talking bollocks in them it becomes particularly difficult to take him as a serious student of the game

Years of coke abuse will do that to you...

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, Le Hack said:

You know what really annoys me with Paddy is his incessant snuffling and sniffing through his nose at press conferences. Combined with him talking bollocks in them it becomes particularly difficult to take him as a serious student of the game

It is annoying, but I don't think we should be focussing on it. What's important here is that he's our head coach and the squad is not progressing under his leadership. What we did two seasons ago, and and last season, is irrelevant now. The first serious test of the present season was two days ago, and we failed the test. And it wasn't just a pre-season game - I don't buy that crap - it was a Cup competition that gets the winner into an AFC competition, which is what we should be aiming for every season.

[Le Hack]

Yeah and what's particularly gruelling is that that Cup game was pretty much a repeat of what happened in the Grand Final, if you can't learn from that than god help us with another season of no plan B. That's why I'm an advocate of getting a tall CF who can hold up the ball and also be targetted with long balls if required as something of a difference

[HughJass]

3 hours ago, Le Hack said:

That's why I'm an advocate of getting a tall CF who can hold up the ball and also be targetted with long balls if required as something of a difference

I agree but would he even get on the field or just sit on the bench for the whole season......

[Mr MO]

5 minutes ago, HughJass said:

I agree but would he even get on the field or just sit on the bench for the whole season......

Any forward who can actually control a ball and set up play would give a new dynamic to a forward line in congested play. For example JMAC got played in several times in the last two cup games, more often than not resulting in poor layoffs or turn overs.

But yeah would he play under PK, who knows.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Mr MO

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, Mr MO said:

Any forward who can actually control a ball and set up play would give a new dynamic to a forward line in congested play. For example JMAC got played in several times in the last two cup games, more often than not resulting in poor layoffs or turn overs.

But yeah would he play under PK, who knows.

There's a whole lot of things that have to change. Passing the ball backwards all the time, often firing it straight back at the player who had the ball in the first place is the first one that gets me. Telegraphing the pass by running towards the player who will receive the ball is the second. I just long for a forward who can control the ball, turn his man and pass the ball forwards. And wingers who can actually cross the ball accurately.

[Mr MO]

On 19/8/2022 at 9:13 AM, jw1739 said:

 I just long for a forward who can control the ball, turn his man and pass…..

It’s no coincidence that Bruno did well with us, he’s exactly that type of player.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mr MO

[haz]

Awfully quiet here.... 

Does anyone have the stats on our best ever start to the season after 3, 5, or even 10 games? 

[haz]

7 minutes ago, haz said:

Awfully quiet here.... 

Does anyone have the stats on our best ever start to the season after 3, 5, or even 10 games? 

Answering my own question

Data: https://www.transfermarkt.com/a-league/saisonstarts/wettbewerb/AUS1

 

After 3 Games:

22/23 Season: 3-0-0, 6 Goals, 1 Against. (5th best in A League history) 

17/18 Season: 3-0-0, 5 Goals, 1 Against. 

 

After 4 Games:

17/18 Season: 4-0-0, 7 Goals, 1 Against.

 

After 5 Games:

19/20 Season: 4-1-0, 10 Goals, 5 Against.

So we're actually off to our best start ever and the 5th best ever in the league after 3 games! 

[Torn Asunder]

I'm pleased to see that he is coaching better this season.

Seems like we are better at managing games, and also it's good we are seeing subs

PK also seems slightly calmer on the sidelines and even his pressers have improved 

Glover is also playing better ...

Seems like there was some genuine introspection after last year's GF loss and improvements have been made

Also seems like we finally have a full contingent of quality foreign players ... this helps heaps.

Leckie also is looking great

This is what should be expected as a minimum every season