The Derby - Elimination Final Sunday 5PM 5/4/24

[SF33]

What a double-whammy: losing in that way, against that opposition. As bad as it gets.

Others on here know so much more about the game and tactics than me, I'd love for someone to explain to me why the hell you'd sub off almost every player whom you'd have a bit of confidence in to put away a penalty.

Like, to me, there's two types of penalty takers: the class finishers, where they can pretty much put it away and it doesn't matter what the GK does; and everyone else, who basically picks a direction, concentrates on hitting it hard and on target and hopes the keeper picks wrong.

With Izzo playing an incredible game, a shoot-out wasn't looking particularly attractive scenario and with so many of our class finishers subbed off, it looked like Mt Everest. Sure enough, that's how it went. Izzo was very good again in the shoot-out, but they were fairly tame shots that he stopped. And I'd argue that it wasn't the shooters' fault: the likes of Antonis and Talbot probably should have been stepping up for us after the first five.

We can talk about what a terrible season it's been - really no denying that - but we were a few minutes away from still having a better season than Victory, for the fifth consecutive year. I can't believe we pissed it away. What a waste.

Edited May 5 by SF33

[HughJass]

37 minutes ago, neio said:

Talbot and Jeggo were just thrown into penalties

Talbot I agree but Jeggo being 32 and played in Europe I'd assume he put his hand up....

[jw1739]

I thought that the list of of order of penalty takers had to be nominated before the match started, and players who were not on the pitch at the end of the match proper were struck off but the nominated order had to be followed?

[neio]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

I thought that the list of of order of penalty takers had to be nominated before the match started, and players who were not on the pitch at the end of the match proper were struck off but the nominated order had to be followed?

That's incorrect, according to IFAB teams don't even have to tell the referee the order if they don't want.

Before the shootout on the telecast you can see Popovic with his notepad with Miranda next to him and he is writing and the pointing to a player and telling him what number taker he is. They were definitely working it out and communicating it with his players 2 minutes before the shootout 

[D.B. Cooper]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

I thought that the list of of order of penalty takers had to be nominated before the match started, and players who were not on the pitch at the end of the match proper were struck off but the nominated order had to be followed?

I understood they were decided at the time.

I’m not surprised Talbot took a pen he had relatively fresh legs and is now an experienced player.  
I was a little surprised Leckie was subbed but he was out on his feet by then I thought and dead legs aren’t great for pens in any case.
 

[belaguttman]

Oh dear, where to start?

Positives:

Our first half was a testament to our potential: we were aggressive and proactive and executed our tactical plan. It was only a standout performance from Paul Izzo that kept the visit0rs in the game.

 

Negatives:

The visit0rs came out energised in the second half, we looked flat

The visit0rs bench energised their team and created problems for us that we didn't solve

Our bench subs added nothing, and the players that were removed detracted from our cohesion and style of play (in contrast to the visit0rs). The last few seasons, we had a bench that could and did change the outcome of games; not this season.

We were tactically poor in extra time: we couldn't capitalise on our extra man, we were reactive. We didn't move the visit0rs around to create space.

Our subs removed all the trusted penalty-takers from the field.

 

All of these negatives were the role of the coaching bench to solve, not to create; it was a self-inflicted defeat.

Edited May 6 by belaguttman

[n i k o]

Talbot is fucking shit. Failed to track the run of their player when they scored and missed the penalty. He's shit. If they give him priority to be in the starting eleven next season they've got rocks in their heads. 

[MHFC-FAN]

40 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Talbot is fucking shit. Failed to track the run of their player when they scored and missed the penalty. He's shit. If they give him priority to be in the starting eleven next season they've got rocks in their heads. 

Yep with you there! I think he's had more than enough time to prove he's not getting any better and really doesn't add anything to the team. Atkinson was the best RB we've had and Talbot is miles off his talent! 

 

[Le Hack]

Wtf would you go in with no recognised CB on the bench as well. Looks like there was no intention to play Galloway so with Reis injured why would you not put Hall on the bench.

[xXCiTyZeNXx]

To sum up the game, 1 minute of watching City feels longer than a 1 minute plank

[n i k o]

Word is many staff inside the club were scratching their heads at the subs made last night wondering what the hell Vidmar was doing. Don't think the people from Man City that were at the game last night were impressed either. 

[Mr MO]

6 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Word is many staff inside the club were scratching their heads at the subs made last night wondering what the hell Vidmar was doing. Don't think the people from Man City that were at the game last night were impressed either. 

Even Archie Thompson openly questioned the substitutions, that says something.

[belaguttman]

14 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Don't think the people from Man City that were at the game last night were impressed either. 

Hopefully, that means that he had an unsuccessful audition for the permanent position.

[Colombo]

We have the best coach in the league 

we have the best players in the league

we have the best admin in the league

we have the best penalty takers in the league 

we have the best crowds in the league 

we have the best training facilities in the league 

we have the best of everything 

Thank you city group for supplying the best of everything it is all evident in our season we had 

[MHFC-FAN]

26 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Word is many staff inside the club were scratching their heads at the subs made last night wondering what the hell Vidmar was doing. Don't think the people from Man City that were at the game last night were impressed either. 

The club would be absolutely mad to extend his tenure given how disappointing this season has been! Encapsulated by last night's performance...I don't think I've ever seen a team go from such an advantageous position to looking a losing position in that manner 😡

[Baka1]

43 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Word is many staff inside the club were scratching their heads at the subs made last night wondering what the hell Vidmar was doing. Don't think the people from Man City that were at the game last night were impressed either. 

Borderline match fixing subs… 

[fensaddler]

I suspect like a lot of us I'm still processing this. Some random observations.

- In the first half, and for much of the second, we were mostly the good version of City. We created huge numbers of good chances and played the sort of attacking football we all want to see. Our failing was not being good enough to put more than one in the net.

- Rolling around holding your face and faking injury is not good enough. Especially when that player is already on a yellow and risks getting booked for simulation. Said it before re Jakolis trying the same thing early in the season, but I don't want players like that at the club. And I know Fornaroli and Arzani were diving everywhere.

- It was great to have a bigger active, including trumpet. For once I was in the middle of it and it took me back about 40 years... The oldest of our crew is in his mid seventies and has just had his knee replaced. He had a ball and was waving his crutch in the air a number of times. I suspect it made him feel about 60 years younger.

- We've got a hell of a job rebuilding this squad. It's already off the pace and we're losing more key parts with the end of this season. It's not going to be fixed by one off season however effective. I suspect we've got several years rebuilding ahead of us. And we need to learn a lot about both squad building and style of play from those at the head of the pack right now. If we were as effective with our resources as CCM are with theirs, it's frightening how good we might be.

[Le Hack]

I get that we don't like the rolling around, but the fact that Macach actually put the boot into the head of Natel, agreed with minimal force and that he is now suspended for two weeks suggests APL also sees that sort of behaviour as not on

[belaguttman]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:32 AM, SF33 said:

We can talk about what a terrible season it's been - really no denying that - but we were a few minutes away from still having a better season than Victory, for the fifth consecutive year. I can't believe we pissed it away. What a waste.

We did finish 6th in our worst season for 10 years compared to the visit0rs...

Our football, as others have said, is very predictable; that, in itself isn't a problem if we play it better than any other team in the League. We don't, and then aren't able to solve the problems set for us by the opposition. This is partly recruitment:

our CBs are good, but slow. This either prevents us playing compactly or leaves us very vulnerable to a counter-attack

our DM isn't good enough for our style of play

our wingers aren't good enough with their final ball

Our striker had a poor season, in part because our style of play didn't suit his strengths

Our bench this season was weak, with no game-changers apart from Antonis.

Our coaching has been poor: poor in group management in creating a cohesive team; poor in instilling belief, poor subs management; poor tactical adjustment during games.

[fensaddler]

2 hours ago, Le Hack said:

I get that we don't like the rolling around, but the fact that Macach actually put the boot into the head of Natel, agreed with minimal force and that he is now suspended for two weeks suggests APL also sees that sort of behaviour as not on

I understood that contact was to the chest rather than the head? If it was the head his response was justified. Certainly no intent to justify or downplay what Machach did, or the penalty applied.

[moops]

52 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

We did finish 6th in our worst season for 10 years compared to the visit0rs...

Our football, as others have said, is very predictable; that, in itself isn't a problem if we play it better than any other team in the League. We don't, and then aren't able to solve the problems set for us by the opposition. This is partly recruitment:

our CBs are good, but slow. This either prevents us playing compactly or leaves us very vulnerable to a counter-attack

our DM isn't good enough for our style of play

our wingers aren't good enough with their final ball

Our striker had a poor season, in part because our style of play didn't suit his strengths

Our bench this season was weak, with no game-changers apart from Antonis.

Our coaching has been poor: poor in group management in creating a cohesive team; poor in instilling belief, poor subs management; poor tactical adjustment during games.

I think regarding tactics we are in the same trap as Sydney found itself in, Arnie was successful with it, so it got passed on. Different players and coaches come and go and it stops working. Ulfie has done a brilliant job revitalising them.

CB has caused a lot of our problems as you point out.

I have been a bit disappointed with Jeggo as well, especially when compared to O'Neil, he doesn't even fit the brief of what's needed. As I have said, I would have preferred Lopane or Antonis who did well there instead.

Agree our wingers were very hot and cold and that's generous.

Agree.

Our recruitment and identifying academy talent was pretty bad this season, Aslan and Souprayen were the only bright spots, the latter also contributing to our slow problems though.

I do wonder how much leeway the staff had, Vidmar came across that he had very little wiggle room or say. Is it him taking jabs at the management above him, or was it excuses?

But it's pretty poor there was no cohesion until very late and there was only brief signs of it.

 

[fensaddler]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

We did finish 6th in our worst season for 10 years compared to the visit0rs...

Our football, as others have said, is very predictable; that, in itself isn't a problem if we play it better than any other team in the League. We don't, and then aren't able to solve the problems set for us by the opposition. This is partly recruitment:

our CBs are good, but slow. This either prevents us playing compactly or leaves us very vulnerable to a counter-attack

our DM isn't good enough for our style of play

our wingers aren't good enough with their final ball

Our striker had a poor season, in part because our style of play didn't suit his strengths

Our bench this season was weak, with no game-changers apart from Antonis.

Our coaching has been poor: poor in group management in creating a cohesive team; poor in instilling belief, poor subs management; poor tactical adjustment during games.

Mostly agree. I don't think our use of subs has been as poor as in previous years. We've been more willing to use those subs earlier, they have sometimes changed the game (particularly Antonis, but sometimes others) or have at least shored up tiring legs.

Another factor this season has been injuries (but see also ageing squad). We've so often been without key players including the better game changers to come off the bench. Look at who was missing for the game on Sunday, and wonder what a fit Tilio, Mazzeo, Nabbout, Reis or Sulemani might have contributed.

Finally, player departures or impending departures. Curtis Good was the consummate professional to the last, but we can only wonder where Maclaren's head was. And Hamza Sakhi's departure was a real loss, just when he'd settled in and found form.

But having said that, yes, a grim season leavened with the occasional outstanding performance. Too often and a familiar story, we've not turned periods of dominance into goals. Albeit three more points would have put us ahead of Victory and if we believe the breathless commentariat, they are a wonderful side who have had a decent season. Only two really good sides this year, both well clear of the pack on top, and we deservedly beat one of them in the run in... The elephant in the room has been our woeful and often inexplicable inconsistency.

[Le Hack]

Agree with the above and you can also include the following:

Behich leaving less than half way through leading to signing Fernandez who whilst I don't mind did cause two penalties

Talbot's drop off in form this year compared yo last year when he was half decent

Galloway injured so couldn't be that replacement on either full back position. He's also pretty good for 2-3 goals a season which I can't recall we got any from the FBs

[belaguttman]

4 hours ago, fensaddler said:

Mostly agree. I don't think our use of subs has been as poor as in previous years. We've been more willing to use those subs earlier, they have sometimes changed the game (particularly Antonis, but sometimes others) or have at least shored up tiring legs.

I don't think that our bench has been as strong; this gives the coach fewer options, and, of course, they have less impact. We've probably had fewer injuries overall, but all have been to key players, and they've missed many games. It wasn't until the third last round that we were able to field our first-choice eleven

[kingofhearts]

25 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

I don't think that our bench has been as strong; this gives the coach fewer options, and, of course, they have less impact. We've probably had fewer injuries overall, but all have been to key players, and they've missed many games. It wasn't until the third last round that we were able to field our first-choice eleven

The biggest impact of our season was leckie being injured for the majority of it.

It's no coincidence that when he was healthy, the team started rolling again.

[NewConvert]

39 minutes ago, kingofhearts said:

The biggest impact of our season was leckie being injured for the majority of it.

It's no coincidence that when he was healthy, the team started rolling again.

One man team?

[jw1739]

45 minutes ago, kingofhearts said:

The biggest impact of our season was leckie being injured for the majority of it.

It's no coincidence that when he was healthy, the team started rolling again.

IMO that's an excuse and not a reason. If it was indeed the overwhelming reason, then the club is in an even worse state than we thought.

[NewConvert]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

IMO that's an excuse and not a reason. If it was indeed the overwhelming reason, then the club is in an even worse state than we thought.

I disagree. A lot of teams have one key player that makes the difference when competing against other top clubs. If you were to name a player from Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City that was critical to their success against other top clubs you would most likely come up with one name. For Melb City it is Leckie. We need another Leckie in the back six.

[Le Hack]

11 hours ago, NewConvert said:

I disagree. A lot of teams have one key player that makes the difference when competing against other top clubs. If you were to name a player from Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City that was critical to their success against other top clubs you would most likely come up with one name. For Melb City it is Leckie. We need another Leckie in the back six.

Actually think we were too top heavy with old blokes. Not enough in the 23-29 bracket. We were mostly too slow to play our usual game. Although our three best for the season Arslan, Souprayen and Young are outside that parameter. The only quick guy was Jakolis really

[belaguttman]

7 hours ago, Le Hack said:

Actually think we were too top heavy with old blokes. Not enough in the 23-29 bracket. We were mostly too slow to play our usual game. Although our three best for the season Arslan, Souprayen and Young are outside that parameter. The only quick guy was Jakolis really

I agree, but I think this happens with all successful teams. It's compounded in our League with a short season, a relatively small list, and few alternative competitions for younger players. Key players are important but also a point of weakness, as we've seen this season with Matt Leslie's prolonged absences and their impact on the team. PK put more emphasis on systems of play, and whilst that was implemented rather inflexibly, it did lessen the impact of specific player absences.

[NewConvert]

7 hours ago, Le Hack said:

Actually think we were too top heavy with old blokes. Not enough in the 23-29 bracket. We were mostly too slow to play our usual game. Although our three best for the season Arslan, Souprayen and Young are outside that parameter. The only quick guy was Jakolis really

 

6 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

I agree, but I think this happens with all successful teams. It's compounded in our League with a short season, a relatively small list, and few alternative competitions for younger players. Key players are important but also a point of weakness, as we've seen this season with Matt Leslie's prolonged absences and their impact on the team. PK put more emphasis on systems of play, and whilst that was implemented rather inflexibly, it did lessen the impact of specific player absences.

For what is worth, the AFL clubs also face the same dilemma - when to "retire" a player and who to replace them with. Theoretically, A-League clubs have a much larger talent pool to choose being a world sport but this is constrained by the salary and list cap. Also, about the scouting network. I think that CCM and AU have hit a sweet spot in that they have been able to spot local talent, nurture and develop them with enough frequency to not be disastrous. SFC have done well this season with their young players as well, but it would be interesting to see what happens if most depart for overseas.

Game plan works well until you players slow down drastically due to age or injury. Nuno Reis is a classic example. Excellent first season but this season he definitely was too slow. His pace (and Goods) just fell off the cliff.

[MHFC-FAN]

12 hours ago, belaguttman said:

I agree, but I think this happens with all successful teams. It's compounded in our League with a short season, a relatively small list, and few alternative competitions for younger players. Key players are important but also a point of weakness, as we've seen this season with Matt Leslie's prolonged absences and their impact on the team. PK put more emphasis on systems of play, and whilst that was implemented rather inflexibly, it did lessen the impact of specific player absences.

Who is Matt Leslie? I didn't recall signing them...😆

[belaguttman]

6 hours ago, MHFC-FAN said:

Who is Matt Leslie? I didn't recall signing them...😆

He was signed by Autocorrect

[Torn Asunder]

Its taken me a while to get to the forum to post after this game ... but for context I attended every home game this season, and also watched every minute of all our away games (and was at this final).  I also watched all of Vidmar's pressers.

We got the result our season deserved.  Not only that, the icing on the cake was the we provided the Tards with arguably their most famous Victory.

My summation of the season is simple.  Too many changes pre season, squad issues during the season (injuries and departures), and IMO probably the worst coach we've had.  Vidmar is horribly negative and boring and brings nothing fresh to our club, and no doubt this negative style then influences the entire fabric of the club.

I think we need some fresh blood in terms of recruitment, and we need the best coach in the league (whoever that is, I don't know, but for the love of all things sane, it should not be Vidmar or PK).

Bring on 2025

[belaguttman]

38 minutes ago, Torn Asunder said:

Vidmar is horribly negative and boring and brings nothing fresh to our club, and no doubt this negative style then influences the entire fabric of the club.

 

I hear that the ACCC is insisting that we stop misrepresenting our team as having any resemblance to Manchester City, and so we are changing our jersey colour next season to beige.

[jw1739]

26 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

I hear that the ACCC is insisting that we stop misrepresenting our team as having any resemblance to Manchester City, and so we are changing our jersey colour next season to beige.

I thought it was the opposite - that we remove any and all references to Melbourne...?