The JvS thread

[jw1739]

Just now, KSK_47 said:

Fuck knows what the hell they are thinking tbh. Even if we do end up winning by some distance we all know it will have nothing to do with JVS

Probably closer to the truth than any other suggestion so far... Don't we all love the off-season?

[bt50]

Look I don’t want to come across a JVS apologist here because believe me, I think his time is up and he’s not the answer for us moving forward, but you have to look at his strengths and weaknesses as a whole when saying he’s useless.

From the outside in, and as much as many of us seem to think you have him all figured out (myself included), it appears that his glaring weaknesses are his man-management skills and his ability to inspire/get the team up. That may not be the case, really only those internally can really make any sort of authoritative assessment on that.

His strengths, again from the outside looking in, appear to be his ability to adapt the team and its flexibility to suit the tactics required, and his record in backing and developing youth. The youth thing was particularly more evident in the Heart days when that was a major focus for the club.

Personally I don’t think he’s useless, he has some significant strengths,  but I also don’t think he’s the man to take us forward.

Edited May 5, 2016 by bt50

[KSK_47]

I can't be arsed going through it all again but i think you are wrong on all accounts

*apart from his inability to motivate and that his time is up

Edited May 5, 2016 by KSK_47

[n i k o]

9 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Look I don’t want to come across a JVS apologist here because believe me, I think his time is up and he’s not the answer for us moving forward, but you have to look at his strengths and weaknesses as a whole when saying he’s useless.

From the outside in, and as much as many of us seem to think you have him all figured out (myself included), it appears that he’s glaring weaknesses are his man-management skills and his ability to inspire/get the team up. That may not be the case, really only those internally can really make any sort of authoritative assessment on that.

His strengths, again from the outside looking in, appear to be his ability to adapt the team and its flexibility to suit the tactics required, and his record in backing and developing youth. The youth thing was particularly more evident in the Heart days when that was a major focus for the club.

Personally I don’t think he’s useless, he has some significant strengths,  but I also don’t think he’s the man to take us forward.

Merely as an observation it seems to me that Dutch managers at times lack that warm, empathic, passionate side to them. That ability to really make a bond to their players. Take Van Gaal as another perfect example. There's that same feeling that the players don't really connect with them, that willingness to play for the manager. They come across as being cold and unconnected to the players. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by n i k o

[KSK_47]

11 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Merely as an observation it seems to me that Dutch managers at times lack that warm, empathic, passionate side to them. That ability to really make a bond to their players. Take Van Gaal as another perfect example. There's that same feeling that the players don't really connect with them, that willingness to play for the manager. They come across as being cold and unconnected to the players. 

Pim is a great example too. I remember hearing somewhere that statistically he is actually one of our better national managers but everyone- players and supporters couldn't wait to see him gone.

But that aside, these apparent strengths that JVS do not have a lot of credibility imo

Edited May 5, 2016 by KSK_47

[Jovan]

14 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Merely as an observation it seems to me that Dutch managers at times lack that warm, empathic, passionate side to them. That ability to really make a bond to their players. Take Van Gaal as another perfect example. There's that same feeling that the players don't really connect with them, that willingness to play for the manager. They come across as being cold and unconnected to the players. 

I raise you a Hiddink.

I don't think being dutch has much to do with it. 

[n i k o]

Just now, Jovan said:

I raise you a Hiddink.

I don't think being dutch has much to do with it. 

Agree with Hiddink being a better communicator, not sure you would call him warm or empathic though. Assuming he is though, the point is for every Hiddink there are 5 Vant Schips. Because generally speaking, my observations lead me to beleive that Dutch managers lack those qualities. Just to mention a few, Vant Schip, Van Gaal, Pimm, Gullit, each one with reported man management issues. 

[Tesla]

If the payout is really the problem, why not move him into a Head of Youth Development role on the same money? Maybe he'll take some convincing but it's obviously an area he is both good and passionate about . I don't think CFG would be going wrong even giving him some sort of youth development role higher up the CFG food chain if that's what it took to get him to leave the manager role here. 

[rass]

43 minutes ago, Tesla said:

If the payout is really the problem, why not move him into a Head of Youth Development role on the same money? Maybe he'll take some convincing but it's obviously an area he is both good and passionate about . I don't think CFG would be going wrong even giving him some sort of youth development role higher up the CFG food chain if that's what it took to get him to leave the manager role here. 

...and that's it. Surely wouldnt be too hard to move him into another role, fuk just create a new role especially for him. Make him useful and keep him away from the manager position.

They may actually think he's doing a good job... but internally i know they're not happy at all with how he failed to get the team up for the last two weeks of the season..

Anyway, I'm not going to stress myself over it now

[bt50]

1 minute ago, rass said:

...and that's it. Surely wouldnt be too hard to move him into another role, fuk just create a new role especially for him. Make him useful and keep him away from the manager position.

They may actually think he's doing a good job... but internally i know they're not happy at all with how he failed to get the team up for the last two weeks of the season..

Anyway, I'm not going to stress myself over it now

 

50 minutes ago, Tesla said:

If the payout is really the problem, why not move him into a Head of Youth Development role on the same money? Maybe he'll take some convincing but it's obviously an area he is both good and passionate about . I don't think CFG would be going wrong even giving him some sort of youth development role higher up the CFG food chain if that's what it took to get him to leave the manager role here. 

Agree that would be an ideal outcome, but I imagine he'd have to agree with it no? Otherwise its breaking the contract and they have to pay him out regardless.

[belaguttman]

2 hours ago, n i k o said:

Maybe they feel the team having the biggest turn around of players of any club in the league affected him greatly. Taking into consideration we were only a few wins off top spot perhaps they feel with a more settled team we will be strong enough to win the league. 

If that is the case why are they likely to turn half the list over again this off-season?

[Tesla]

29 minutes ago, bt50 said:

 

Agree that would be an ideal outcome, but I imagine he'd have to agree with it no? Otherwise its breaking the contract and they have to pay him out regardless.

I assume he does have to agree but I'm sure he can be convinced. 

[rass]

41 minutes ago, bt50 said:

 

Agree that would be an ideal outcome, but I imagine he'd have to agree with it no? Otherwise its breaking the contract and they have to pay him out regardless.

It will keep employed and still under the CFG umbrella without the constant scrutiny and outside pressures. Would be ideal you'd think.   

[Jovan]

How many sacked coaches from CFG been moved into new positions?

[KSK_47]

4 minutes ago, Jovan said:

How many sacked coaches from CFG been moved into new positions?

True. If they really wanted him gone he would be gone. Im sure they could manage to find some money if a payout is the issue

[Jovan]

It looks to me JVS situation will mirror Pelligrinis, that is they will see out there contracts. This new assistant from UK rumors is very intriguing but possibly they rate JVS much more than this forum and that it is just an assistant.

 

I love the offseason.

[n i k o]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

If that is the case why are they likely to turn half the list over again this off-season?

By turn around I mean not only the players that have come in and out of the squad but also the injured players that have been in and out. Right now in this moment it's ok to bring players in and move players on. The important step to get right is having the squad playing together consistently over the course of the season. 

22 minutes ago, Jovan said:

It looks to me JVS situation will mirror Pelligrinis, that is they will see out there contracts. This new assistant from UK rumors is very intriguing but possibly they rate JVS much more than this forum and that it is just an assistant.

 

I love the offseason.

What's dissapointing about that is Pellegrini has earned the right to see out his contract what with winning the league. Vant Schip though...

[hakz7]

I think we should question why they even gave JVS a 3-year contract in the first place.

He must have a really good agent. Even since his first stint with Heart; being the highest paid manager in the league with no prior success...

[NewConvert]

Let me pose a serious question: How many players we can honestly say that they improved under JVS, remain the same under JVS and went backwards under JVS?

This is a tough question because some players did not get enough game time due to better players being available or injury. The only player I can honestly think that did improve was Mooy. A few went backwards (Redmayne for example). It would be interesting to see what people come up with.

[jw1739]

1 minute ago, hakz7 said:

I think we should question why they even gave JVS a 3-year contract in the first place.

He must have a really good agent. Even since his first stint with Heart; being the highest paid manager in the league with no prior success...

Yes, and I expect that CFG is now asking itself that question. CFG doesn't necessarily have all the answers to questions on how to run a football club.

CFG was formed in 2008 in the lead-up to the takeover of Manchester City. Although New York City was the second club under the CFG umbrella, it is often forgotten in our discussions that it was actually Melbourne Heart that was the second club in the Group that was actually on the field and playing and with its complements of players, coaches and administrators. NYC was the third to actually trot on to the field under CFG ownership. The minority share in Yokohama was announced after the takeover of Heart, and it's not clear what degree of control CFG exercises over that club with its reported 20% ownership.

Given that each league differs in the local rules etc. that govern it, CFG is still learning how to conduct itself outside the EPL environment, and I'm not surprised that CFG appears to be taking its time over any changes to the top levels of local management here in Melbourne. And I think that includes JvS, and I don't resile from the view that despite the blots on his 2015/16 copybook (i.e. the FFA Cup team to Perth and the failure on the vinegar stroke when the Premiership was ours for the taking) he did just enough to hold on.

I wish it were different, but IMO that's the situation.

[thisphantomfortress]

6 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

Let me pose a serious question: How many players we can honestly say that they improved under JVS, remain the same under JVS and went backwards under JVS?

This is a tough question because some players did not get enough game time due to better players being available or injury. The only player I can honestly think that did improve was Mooy. A few went backwards (Redmayne for example). It would be interesting to see what people come up with.

TBH I hate JVS as much as the next bloke but Clisby has improved IMO, Bruno has gone from being a no name to scoring a bag of goals and my biggest improver has been Melling, gone from pure hatchet man to being able to pick a pass.

[Deviant]

So as not to post in the wrong section, BUT, going on from the transfer talk topic and following this article: http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/2016/05/05/14/30/van-t-schip-talks-city-ins-outs

 

 

Could he be our version of Arsen Wenger?

[thisphantomfortress]

JVS to see out the final year of his contract - same source as the Kisnorbo taking a job at the club. Decisions been made lock it in.

[GreenSeater]

7 minutes ago, Deviant said:

So as not to post in the wrong section, BUT, going on from the transfer talk topic and following this article: http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/2016/05/05/14/30/van-t-schip-talks-city-ins-outs

 

 

Could he be our version of Arsen Wenger?

He's staying kids. This 100% confirms it. Well, lets hope he can pull something out of his arse this season...

[Kiro Kompiro]

I for one- and despite being put on Bullshit Watch- still believe he will get 8 weeks, or 56 days if you're in that part of the world.  If we look like crap, he won't see out his contract.  If we are top 4 or better at that stage, he will be kept for the season.

[hakz7]

1 minute ago, Kiro Kompiro said:

I for one- and despite being put on Bullshit Watch- still believe he will get 8 weeks, or 56 days if you're in that part of the world.  If we look like crap, he won't see out his contract.  If we are top 4 or better at that stage, he will be kept for the season.

Inb4 we win the first 8 games, they extend his contract then we lose the remaining 19 games.

[KSK_47]

21 minutes ago, Deviant said:

So as not to post in the wrong section, BUT, going on from the transfer talk topic and following this article: http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/2016/05/05/14/30/van-t-schip-talks-city-ins-outs

 

 

Could he be our version of Arsen Wenger?

Wenger has silverware

[Thrillhouse]

way too similar to liverpool, dud manager should of been sacked, instead given another off season to fuck up transfers before being shit again the next season and replaced during the season without much to play for

[bt50]

4 minutes ago, Thrillhouse said:

way too similar to liverpool, dud manager should of been sacked, instead given another off season to fuck up transfers before being shit again the next season and replaced during the season without much to play for

Lol, I remember when the Scouser hoards were proclaiming Brendan Rodgers as the next Fergie.

[Falastur]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Yes, and I expect that CFG is now asking itself that question. CFG doesn't necessarily have all the answers to questions on how to run a football club.

CFG was formed in 2008 in the lead-up to the takeover of Manchester City. Although New York City was the second club under the CFG umbrella, it is often forgotten in our discussions that it was actually Melbourne Heart that was the second club in the Group that was actually on the field and playing and with its complements of players, coaches and administrators. NYC was the third to actually trot on to the field under CFG ownership. The minority share in Yokohama was announced after the takeover of Heart, and it's not clear what degree of control CFG exercises over that club with its reported 20% ownership.

Given that each league differs in the local rules etc. that govern it, CFG is still learning how to conduct itself outside the EPL environment, and I'm not surprised that CFG appears to be taking its time over any changes to the top levels of local management here in Melbourne. And I think that includes JvS, and I don't resile from the view that despite the blots on his 2015/16 copybook (i.e. the FFA Cup team to Perth and the failure on the vinegar stroke when the Premiership was ours for the taking) he did just enough to hold on.

I wish it were different, but IMO that's the situation.

I think you're right that CFG still has a lot to learn. For the record, though, CFG has only existed since just before Heart were bought. You're thinking of ADUG. The only person who has been at Manchester City since they were bought is the Chairman Khaldoon al-Mubarak, Mansour's right-hand man (and Soriano's boss) but he's very hands-off and leaves the decision-making to Soriano and co. Soriano has only been in Manchester since 2012. At this point, the main guys pulling the strings are still more used to running Barcelona than a series of smaller-budget clubs, and I think that the choices they make reflect their growing pains getting to grips with that fact. Note, for example, that during his time at Barcelona the only manager he ever saw replaced was Rijkaard, which was a more contentious issue and anyway was a move initiated by a President who Soriano ended up voting off the board less than 12 months later anyway.

The guys running CFG know their football, but I think they definitely still have things to learn about running clubs which aren't Barcelona. 

[NewConvert]

2 hours ago, thisphantomfortress said:

TBH I hate JVS as much as the next bloke but Clisby has improved IMO, Bruno has gone from being a no name to scoring a bag of goals and my biggest improver has been Melling, gone from pure hatchet man to being able to pick a pass.

Agree with Bruno and Melling. Not sure about Clisby, I always felt that when he was at PG he wasn't far off from being a starting XI player but I do accept that it has been this season that he has really improved. I would also add Mauk and Chapman.

Players that are standing still are Garruccio and Retre. Also Kuzi, Marino and Dekker. I hope that the latter two get some opportunities elsewhere.

[The Aardvark]

4 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

Agree with Bruno and Melling. Not sure about Clisby, I always felt that when he was at PG he wasn't far off from being a starting XI player but I do accept that it has been this season that he has really improved. I would also add Mauk and Chapman.

Players that are standing still are Garruccio and Retre. Also Kuzi, Marino and Dekker. I hope that the latter two get some opportunities elsewhere.

Retre has improved. When JVS got the job proper the second time Retre was a cringeworthy mid who looked out of his depth. he is no star now, but he is also a capable squad player who can contribute in a few roles.

The other players I would argue have improved to various degrees under JVS are Velaphi, Mooy, Melling, Fitzgerald and Mauk, and JVS probably gets some credit for Fornaroli and Novillo (although obviously the different quality of the league helps significantly). It's not a great list but it's not all bad.

[Tonyboozeadams]

On 30 April 2016 at 6:49 PM, Dylan said:

Its still quite possible that they havent told him yet. But we have had three people ( who could have the same source inside the club for all I know) @AntiScum @Heart of Melbourne and @kingofhearts whom have all posted that they have had it confirmed to them that JVS is gone

@Info@VW

[AntiScum]

breaking news coming very shortly

[KSK_47]

3 minutes ago, AntiScum said:

breaking news coming very shortly

Will you seriously stop it! Even though I dont believe you, it still gets my hopes up slightly for a split second

[Jovan]

17 minutes ago, AntiScum said:

breaking news coming very shortly

10pm perhaps 

 

2019

[thisphantomfortress]

29 minutes ago, KSK_47 said:

Will you seriously stop it! Even though I dont believe you, it still gets my hopes up slightly for a split second

He's seeing out his contract, I don't like it but it's what I've been told.

[Shahanga]

9 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

He's seeing out his contract, I don't like it but it's what I've been told.

What frustrates me about that is the sacking of his assistants. So they are responsible for everything that went wrong, not their boss? WTF

[thisphantomfortress]

3 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

What frustrates me about that is the sacking of his assistants. So they are responsible for everything that went wrong, not their boss? WTF

Not as certain about the assistants but I think the rumour about cfg typers coming in is true

[KSK_47]

1 minute ago, Shahanga said:

What frustrates me about that is the sacking of his assistants. So they are responsible for everything that went wrong, not their boss? WTF

Yeah it certainly doesn't fit into CFGs reputation for apparent ruthlessness in their unwavering search for success.