The JvS thread

[rass]

When the team finally gets to full strength, we'll start winning. No doubt.

....but it will be too late for this clown. More than at any point, we needed him to guide this young team through these rocky first few weeks and he just hasn't done it. We're actually going backwards.

Whilst the players themselves should shoulder a lot of responsibility for their own efforts, the fact that he cannot galvanize this team means he must go asap. No excuses now.

[hakz7]

#MoyesIn

[Luke]

12 minutes ago, rass said:

When the team finally gets to full strength, we'll start winning. No doubt.

....but it will be too late for this clown. More than at any point, we needed him to guide this young team through these rocky first few weeks and he just hasn't done it. We're actually going backwards.

Whilst the players themselves should shoulder a lot of responsibility for their own efforts, the fact that he cannot galvanize this team means he must go asap. No excuses now.

Football isn't about waiting for the rain to stop its about learning to dance in the rain and make the best of what you have 

[Puertoboca]

Agree with  Rasa, 

JVS didn't have full strength squad but if he was any good should have galvanised the youth. Regardless of not having the first 11 to play with JVS has enough resources to make us l a winning team however he is incapable of playing a team of players to its strength and would rather wait until his first 11 are fit. Maybe we have all looked at this the wrong way. Perhaps the marquee players know pretty quickly how poor JVS Is and feign injury rather than front up to a dissapointing and getting more frustrated home crowd!!!!

[Murfy1]

JVS has been failing with the man management this season. He said numerous times in pre-season that the team was striving towards consistency this season. Well, judging JVS by his own goal that he set pre-season, he and the team has failed abysmally over the first 6 rounds to achieve consistency.

 

The squad has significant imperfections that are now becoming clearer and clearer. But still JVS built the squad so the blame for the squad weaknesses must be laid on him. To specify the key squad weaknesses:

- The team signed several players who were injured at the time of signing (like Franjic, Zullo, Gameiro, Novillo), and those players were expected to be 1st choice starters

- The team stuffed up with its trump cards, the marquee signings. Despite our club's vast resources and backing we had 0 marquees playing against WSW, 6 rounds into the season (Mooy was always bound to miss multiple games this season due to Socceroos call-ups, Koren is an unmitigated dud, and for some reason the guest player stint is still unused)

- We signed 3 EPL has-beens and aren't getting value for money with our Visa spots. Fornaroli and Novillo have shown what good Visa players can do, and Victory are just about carried by their Visa players, with 1 quality defender, 1 quality midfielder and 3 quality forwards. 2 out of 5 Visa players (and it's been 1.5 over the first 6 games with Novillo not being fully fit) is simply not good enough, and again just like with the marquee spots we are needlessly handicapping our team because of flawed recruitment

- The team is stacked with young players. I don't think this would be so much a problem if we had another good Visa player or two, and maybe another marquee or two. But with our squad the team is dependent on a lot of kids (Garuccio, Clisby, Chapman, Retre, Melling, Mauk, Kuzmanovski) playing leading roles in an A-League team, and the kids are really struggling

 

If JVS' man management was better, and I have little doubt that other coaches could have gotten significantly more out of our squad despite it's shortcomings, then the squad's weaknesses could perhaps have been glossed over. But JVS hasn't shown any fire and the players haven't looked very fired up under him this season. We haven't seen outstanding 90 minute performances from Melbourne City players where you have to give the players lots of praise for their pure effort. And the lack of fight and old fashion hard-work reflects very poorly on the coach.

 

 

It's now at the point where a good new coach being appointed could potentially outweigh any upheaval there might be from a mid-season coaching change. So CFG should be very open to drastic decisions to rally Melbourne City's season and get the team back on course to contending for top honours, as I believe we still can this season. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by Murfy1

[Cityamatic]

10 minutes ago, Murfy1 said:

JVS has been failing with the man management this season. He said numerous times in pre-season that the team was striving towards consistency this season. Well, judging JVS by his own goal that he set pre-season, he and the team has failed abysmally over the first 6 rounds to achieve consistency.

 

The squad has significant imperfections that are now becoming clearer and clearer. But still JVS built the squad so the blame for the squad weaknesses must be laid on him. To specify the key squad weaknesses:

- The team signed several players who were injured at the time of signing (like Franjic, Zullo, Gameiro, Novillo), and those players were expected to be 1st choice starters

- The team stuffed up with its trump cards, the marquee signings. Despite our club's vast resources and backing we had 0 marquees playing against WSW, 6 rounds into the season (Mooy was always bound to miss multiple games this season due to Socceroos call-ups, Koren is an unmitigated dud, and for some reason the guest player stint is still unused)

- We signed 3 EPL has-beens and aren't getting value for money with our Visa spots. Fornaroli and Novillo have shown what good Visa players can do, and Victory are just about carried by their Visa players, with 1 quality defender, 1 quality midfielder and 3 quality forwards. 2 out of 5 Visa players (and it's been 1.5 over the first 6 games with Novillo not being fully fit) is simply not good enough, and again just like with the marquee spots we are needlessly handicapping our team because of flawed recruitment

- The team is stacked with young players. I don't think this would be so much a problem if we had another good Visa player or two, and maybe another marquee or two. But with our squad the team is dependent on a lot of kids (Garuccio, Clisby, Chapman, Retre, Melling, Mauk, Kuzmanovski) playing leading roles in an A-League team, and the kids are really struggling

 

If JVS' man management was better, and I have little doubt that other coaches could have gotten significantly more out of our squad despite it's shortcomings, then the squad's weaknesses could perhaps have been glossed over. But JVS hasn't shown any fire and the players haven't looked very fired up under him this season. We haven't seen outstanding 90 minute performances from Melbourne City players where you have to give the players lots of praise for their pure effort. And the lack of fight and old fashion hard-work reflects very poorly on the coach.

 

 

It's now at the point where a good new coach being appointed could potentially outweigh any upheaval there might be from a mid-season coaching change. So CFG should be very open to drastic decisions to rally Melbourne City's season and get the team back on course to contending for top honours, as I believe we still can this season. 

Spot on, while I hate comparing ourselves with that other mob you hit the nail on the head - they have done really well in their selection of Visa players, they carry the team (I mean seriously, would Leigh Broxham get a start anywhere else??) and they are almost never injured. As far as I can tell , we have completely buggered this aspect up this season, especially given the overall reliance on youth you raise.

[Nate]

sacking him seems like a bit of a let-off at this point, I'm down for a public execution tomorrow if everyone's free

[Bannon]

acceping any type of money to kill this cunt...... bid starting at 25 cents

[Tesla]

As always, there are people saying the players deserve the blame too, they were crap, individuals being called out, etc.

but I think this game was the perfect example that it all comes down to the manager. The players didn't have a hope tonight, they couldn't get near the ball and when they did they couldnt even string together a couple of passes. Completely out coached, I don't think I've ever seen such a clear cut case of a team being blown away tactically. Popovic made JVS his bitch tonight.

You could see it on the players faces ffs, the frustration was through the roof because they just couldn't do anything no matter how they tried, they couldn't get into the game at all. I don't think the tactics could have been any worse tonight. This game was lost before kickoff.

Now is the time, if JVS has any pride, to hand in his resignation letter. Supposedly comes from the greatest coaching academy in the world, and gets schooled on football by some Australian bloke. 

[NewConvert]

I always approach my work with the idea what are the alternatives and can they be better. Up until last night, I always felt that replacing JVS would be a good move but a new coach will still have the same injured squad, unfit squad, un-pre-seasoned squad, young but promising squad. This morning I am firmly in the camp of keeping JVS is the worst alternative that there is. I don't care whether Triani takes over for the rest of the season, or even Magilton or Moss or Stubbins or Crook or Tesla or Stryder  takes over for the rest of the season.

[HeartOfCity]

I know we where lacking senior midfielders last night and a gun like mooy is irreplaceable, I like Mauk and Melling and think they will be good in a year or 2, so where was trifiro? Senior player CHECK looks capable when he plays CHECK he was there in the warm up CHECK so why didn't he play? I thought he would've played considering the players we had out. To reliant on young players is JVS 

[Dylan]

Can we move this thread to city voice?

[rass]

1 hour ago, HeartOfCity said:

I know we where lacking senior midfielders last night and a gun like mooy is irreplaceable, I like Mauk and Melling and think they will be good in a year or 2, so where was trifiro? Senior player CHECK looks capable when he plays CHECK he was there in the warm up CHECK so why didn't he play? I thought he would've played considering the players we had out. To reliant on young players is JVS 

Yep, this is what i posted at half time last night; need to bring Trifiro on.

Of course though JVS has the excuse the subs were forced. Same old bullshit, this club needs to move past the convenient excuses to mask shit coaching.

[Tommykins]

Triffiro is a serviceable midfielder, expecting him to come on and turn a game is a seriously overrating of his ability.

[NewConvert]

7 minutes ago, Tommykins said:

Triffiro is a serviceable midfielder, expecting him to come on and turn a game is a seriously overrating of his ability.

not necessarily expecting him to overturn the game but given that Mauk had completely disappeared in the second half (well at least between the 45 to 70 minute mark) I thought that he should have been on. Alternatively, if not last night then when would you play him? Why is he there at all?

[HeartOfCity]

2 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

not necessarily expecting him to overturn the game but given that Mauk had completely disappeared in the second half (well at least between the 45 to 70 minute mark) I thought that he should have been on. Alternatively, if not last night then when would you play him? Why is he there at all?

Agree and also to add a senior head in the midfield 

[Torn Asunder]

In a salary capped league, regardless of missing players (through injury / international call-ups, etc) there should NEVER be an occasion where we are simply not competitive AT HOME, even if we lose or draw. JVS is simply incapable of adapting to the requirements of being a competent and competitive manager in this league, and it seems he doesn't really care that he is being out coached by other clubs with the smarts to adjust tactics based on opponent.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Torn Asunder

[Shahanga]

36 minutes ago, Tommykins said:

Triffiro is a serviceable midfielder, expecting him to come on and turn a game is a seriously overrating of his ability.

Don't dispute that. Still at half time it was obvious we were losing the midfield battle and needed another player in there ie 442 with a narrow diamond. Now Hughes being injured made that hard, but what really frustrates me is that is exactly what JVS would have done in his first stint, but now he seems reluctant to change something that isn't working.

[playmaker]

12 hours ago, AntiScum said:

You`re off your head. You can join JVS on the way out just dont let the door hit you on the way out. 

12 hours ago, Tesla said:

Please more comments about the squad not being good enough.

Now that the end is near for JVS, finally time for the greatest green line of all time, when we destroy the league with the same squad and a new manager.

I've been waiting for this green line before green lines were a thing.

Nah I love the club, Agreed that JVS needs to go, BUT the players showed nothing. Sure on paper they have the ability but the effort was disgusting, where is the pride?

All I saw last night was a lack of effort to contest the ball, lack of vision to provide opportunities because players were just stuffing around doing fancy shit instead of feeding other players. Even basic 1-2s were getting stuffed up.

I was sitting behind JVS and watching him and he was trying to direct players and most of the time was telling players to man up or position, increase intensity etc. Who is he talking to kids?  FFS these are professional footballers that obviously have the skill but where is the effort, the grit, the c#nt.

The thing that pissed me off the most was that when the 2nd goal went through and the players got pissed off, they played amazingly for 5 minutes; first to the ball, tackling hard, running hard and looking for opportunities because they wanted a goal so bad, they put everything on the line in that 5 minutes, ssssooooo how about the rest of the game. That shit should be happening for the whole fkn game and it is everything to do effort not skill. If we play the whole game like that 5 minutes, I would be so proud of my club and players regardless of the outcome.

Last night the way we played was unacceptable, regardless of the bullshit excuses for the lost like JVS, players injured, Mooy out; sure we may not have won but where is the grit to want the ball, to get first in.......... No excuse, none, you get more effort on sundays at under 12s,

Conclusion

Get rid of JVS and put an ultimatum on the players to show HEART on the field or piss them off.

There is no excuse for professional to play like that as effort, hunger and grit is an individual thing, it is a choice the players make regardless of the coach, its just something they should be doing week in week out because they are professionals.

 

[hakz7]

Sacked yet?

[jw1739]

4 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Nah I love the club, Agreed that JVS needs to go, BUT the players showed nothing. Sure on paper they have the ability but the effort was disgusting, where is the pride?

All I saw last night was a lack of effort to contest the ball, lack of vision to provide opportunities because players were just stuffing around doing fancy shit instead of feeding other players. Even basic 1-2s were getting stuffed up.

I was sitting behind JVS and watching him and he was trying to direct players and most of the time was telling players to man up or position, increase intensity etc. Who is he talking to kids?  FFS these are professional footballers that obviously have the skill but where is the effort, the grit, the c#nt.

The thing that pissed me off the most was that when the 2nd goal went through and the players got pissed off, they played amazingly for 5 minutes; first to the ball, tackling hard, running hard and looking for opportunities because they wanted a goal so bad, they put everything on the line in that 5 minutes, ssssooooo how about the rest of the game. That shit should be happening for the whole fkn game and it is everything to do effort not skill. If we play the whole game like that 5 minutes, I would be so proud of my club and players regardless of the outcome.

Last night the way we played was unacceptable, regardless of the bullshit excuses for the lost like JVS, players injured, Mooy out; sure we may not have won but where is the grit to want the ball, to get first in.......... No excuse, none, you get more effort on sundays at under 12s,

Conclusion

Get rid of JVS and put an ultimatum on the players to show HEART on the field or piss them off.

There is no excuse for professional to play like that as effort, hunger and grit is an individual thing, it is a choice the players make regardless of the coach, its just something they should be doing week in week out because they are professionals.

I agree with you. We saw precisely the same thing against Newcastle. Last night was even worse, because basically for the whole match we were completely outplayed. As well as the attitude issue that you raise, I'd like to raise the issue of fitness. Many of our players look to me to be unable to run out a match - they simply don't have the stamina. I think the style we play also contributes to this. WSW could transition from defence to a goal-scoring opportunity in as few as three passes, whereas I'll swear we take at least double that in double the time to progress half the distance. Against Adelaide the Novillo-Fornaroli combination was simple, quick and accurate; we opened up the the Adelaide defence like a can of sardines and two goals resulted. We were very congested last night. Simple passes were ignored and we could not open up the play.

[Jimmy]

I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't put on notice. Will be gone before Christmas Imo. 

[Murfy1]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I agree with you. We saw precisely the same thing against Newcastle. Last night was even worse, because basically for the whole match we were completely outplayed. As well as the attitude issue that you raise, I'd like to raise the issue of fitness. Many of our players look to me to be unable to run out a match - they simply don't have the stamina. I think the style we play also contributes to this. WSW could transition from defence to a goal-scoring opportunity in as few as three passes, whereas I'll swear we take at least double that in double the time to progress half the distance. Against Adelaide the Novillo-Fornaroli combination was simple, quick and accurate; we opened up the the Adelaide defence like a can of sardines and two goals resulted. We were very congested last night. Simple passes were ignored and we could not open up the play.

Agree.

 

All 3 subs were seemingly forced by injuries/lack of fitness. First Hughes, then Kuzmanovski, then Gameiro. My conclusion is that this is a self-inflicted outcome, because the club stacked its playing list with new players who were injured when signed, and kids like Kuzmanovski who have never played 90 minutes of senior football.

 

I also agree about the playing style. For an attacking pressing style of football to work the team has to have a lot of possession, so the players aren't running for most of the game and tiring themselves out. The team should be having 55% to 60% of possession each game for the City's attacking style to be effective. Last night, playing at home, Melbourne City had 44.8% possession and WSW had 55.2% possession. The team was pathetic with the ball and couldn't string 3 passes together, players made lots of selfish dribbles and our young disjointed midfield was dominated by WSW's veteran midfield.

 

That there were/are problems with the style of football, and not just issues with the performance, reflects very poorly on the club and its staff.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Murfy1

[benderz]

Here is an interesting article based on stats regarding sacking a manager:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23724517

Tldr:"Changing a manager during a crisis in the season does improve the results in the short term," he says. "But this is a misleading statistic because not changing the manager would have had the same result."

I think some people overestimate how much difference Jvs actually makes.

[Herman Cain]

14 minutes ago, benderz said:

Here is an interesting article based on stats regarding sacking a manager:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23724517

Tldr:"Changing a manager during a crisis in the season does improve the results in the short term," he says. "But this is a misleading statistic because not changing the manager would have had the same result."

I think some people overestimate how much difference Jvs actually makes.

Except that this is not a crisis or a dip in performance.  It's a consistent run of terrible football paired with terrible results across 6 years.

[Dylan]

I said at the start of the year that JVS wouldnt last till xmas and I think his comments and demeanour in the post match presser is a big change to what he usually spits out which is interesting. 

[benderz]

Totally agree Herman, but I think it runs deeper than just the coach. 

We sacked Aloisi, and even though its a bit early, he seems to be doing well at the Raw. Why? Probably because they dont have the team issues already discussed, or at least have them to a lesser extent.

Edited November 14, 2015 by benderz

[KSK_47]

31 minutes ago, benderz said:

Here is an interesting article based on stats regarding sacking a manager:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23724517

Tldr:"Changing a manager during a crisis in the season does improve the results in the short term," he says. "But this is a misleading statistic because not changing the manager would have had the same result."

I think some people overestimate how much difference Jvs actually makes.

Heres an interesting statistic about our manager 

"If he sees out the season the Dutchman will become the fourth most experienced coach in A-League history. He currently has a win ratio of 32%, the lowest of any manager with more than 100 appearances on the competition’s touchlines"

 

[KSK_47]

3 minutes ago, benderz said:

Totally agree Herman, but I think it runs deeper than just the coach. 

We sacked Aloisi, and even though its a bit early, he seems to be doing well at the Raw. Why? Probably because they dont have the team issues already discussed, or at least have them to a lesser extent.

So let me get this straight. For years people have been banging on about how JVS built the philosophy and culture of this club and how great it is because he is such an amazing football mastermind. 

But now people are arguing that JVS isnt to blame because the problems are caused by the philosophy and culture of the club, and thats not the coaches fault.

I've heard it all now. Absolutely amazing.

 

[Luke]

Clisby hopeless at CB but JVS sticks with it doggedly, we desperately needed 90 mins from hughes last night 

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, benderz said:

Here is an interesting article based on stats regarding sacking a manager:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23724517

Tldr:"Changing a manager during a crisis in the season does improve the results in the short term," he says. "But this is a misleading statistic because not changing the manager would have had the same result."

I think some people overestimate how much difference Jvs actually makes.

I've thought about this claim and even said the same thing myself. The claim comes from stats in EPL and European Leaguesn where the situation is different: they aren't salary capped and team performance os often determined by recruitment. Being a weakest link game, the coach may be poor but isn't the weakest link so removing him has little tangible benefit. Here we have recruited reasonably well, certainly well enough to be very competitive and the weakest link over 4 seasons and certainly this one is the one area where we could gain a competitive advantage over the other teams as there is no salary cap on the coach. I think that a good coach (not the same as a change of coach) would make a very big difference

[hakz7]

Won't be surprised if he's still in charge by the next derby.

[Yants]

2 hours ago, Murfy1 said:

Agree.

 

All 3 subs were seemingly forced by injuries/lack of fitness. First Hughes, then Kuzmanovski, then Gameiro. My conclusion is that this is a self-inflicted outcome, because the club stacked its playing list with new players who were injured when signed, and kids like Kuzmanovski who have never played 90 minutes of senior football.

 

I also agree about the playing style. For an attacking pressing style of football to work the team has to have a lot of possession, so the players aren't running for most of the game and tiring themselves out. The team should be having 55% to 60% of possession each game for the City's attacking style to be effective. Last night, playing at home, Melbourne City had 44.8% possession and WSW had 55.2% possession. The team was pathetic with the ball and couldn't string 3 passes together, players made lots of selfish dribbles and our young disjointed midfield was dominated by WSW's veteran midfield.

 

That there were/are problems with the style of football, and not just issues with the performance, reflects very poorly on the club and its staff.

Yep spot on dude.

 

Was at the game last night & it seemed like boys against men. Then JVS does the early double sub again, compared to Popa who times his 3 subs perfectly to bring in bursts of energy to keep us on the ropes.

 

I was glad to see Trifiro to come in for Mooy but fucked if I can understand why he didn’t get a gig. Even if at ½ time JVS shoulda realised we are getting shit on & lucky to be 0-0 so should chock up the defence & play out a draw.

[NewConvert]

During the pre-season I was surprised and disappointed that neither McClaren nor Jamieson having been released from their contracts with PG wanted to come to Melbourne City. I think that I am beginning to understand their reasoning - JVS is the coach and they knew that they were going to go nowhere if they came to the club. McClaren chose Aloisi ahead of JVS and a club that is in financial strife ahead of a club that has solid backing, and that says a lot. Upon reflection this forum has always concentrated on what the CFG group can offer to prospective players but we have neglected a couple of aspects: the coaching and success.

[SHERLOCK]

On 10/13/2015 7:54:27, SHERLOCK said:

JVS is shit

JVS is still shit.

[playmaker]

Bruno and Novillo were screaming for the ball, JVS was screaming at his players to pass, position and release but players were too fkn selfish to do it.

JVS was screaming at the players to position, man up and defend and they just stood around with dumb looks on their faces.

This is basic stuff the professional footballers should do without a thought. This is just a lack of hunger and effort to the ball. Yesterday was just a weak effort all round.

JVS out, and players on notice or we have another 5 year of hurt coming our way.

I am taking another Valium.

Edited November 14, 2015 by jw1739
White space removed.

[Jestr]

Weak, gutless etc etc

just shows you money can't buy you soul

[Dylan]

Id love to hear from @silva10 and @Falastur about when they think the trigger will be pulled, given they have had a few managers under CFG 

[M13]

1 hour ago, Dylan said:

Id love to hear from @silva10 and @Falastur about when they think the trigger will be pulled, given they have had a few managers under CFG 

I´ll give you my opinion.. That if it wasn´t for CFG having to shake up NYCFC first he would already be gone.
I gave him two games to save his job, One was an unconvincing win, the other an horrendous loss with the players hardly willing to put a shift in which tells me that they want him out.
If you have lost the players you are de facto gone..

[Tesla]

Pls Monday be the day.