Transfer Talk, Rumours and Speculation

[Harrison]

39 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

I agree your your explanation of their roles. My concern with Berenguer (that I don't have of Luna) is that when he has had clear scoring opportunities, he has not converted a single one. I'm sure why Le Parton is playing him deeper for this reason. he's a squad player, I can't see anything to justify marquee wages. He needs to be an HAL-level KDB, like Ninkovic is, in order to justify a marquee position

The marquee thing has been done to death so I won’t go over it again. But I agree that he doesn’t score enough. Even though he didn’t score much before coming over, I expected him to score a few goals here and there. I just don’t buy into the whole ‘Berenguer is shit’ argument because he isn’t. If you go by goals and assists then he doesn’t do anywhere near enough, but I look at all aspects of a player’s performance and their role and he’s adequate (again, not for marquee wages). 

It’s probably academic now anyway with Metcalfe and Genreau coming back because he’ll be relegated to the bench.  

[belaguttman]

49 minutes ago, Harrison said:

The marquee thing has been done to death so I won’t go over it again. But I agree that he doesn’t score enough. Even though he didn’t score much before coming over, I expected him to score a few goals here and there. I just don’t buy into the whole ‘Berenguer is shit’ argument because he isn’t. If you go by goals and assists then he doesn’t do anywhere near enough, but I look at all aspects of a player’s performance and their role and he’s adequate (again, not for marquee wages). 

It’s probably academic now anyway with Metcalfe and Genreau coming back because he’ll be relegated to the bench.  

...and I wouldn't mind him not scoring, if he was an assist king. I agree that he's likely to be back on the bench, Genreau offers more

[Mr MO]

2 hours ago, Harrison said:

Glad you brought this up. You are wrong. We do not play with two attacking midfielders, they’re both box to box CMs and both did a huge amount of work against Perth. The heatmaps show this. Both were near the top for us in terms of duels, Berenguer had two interceptions and both had two tackles. With more possession they don’t drop as deep but that doesn’t change their role.

The only difference between them is that Luna regularly presses as a striker next to Maclaren in a 4-4-2, so he ‘rests’ further forward and is in a more advanced position if/when we win the ball. So it’s a bit disingenuous to criticise one for not being as offensive as the other when the system pushes one much further forward when we counter press.

And De Bruyne and Silva are mainly CMs who do their fair share of defensive work, notwithstanding the more recent changes to City’s system where KDB played as a deep lying playmaker. But I won’t really go much further into this comparison because we’re talking about the best midfielder in the world who can do anything from anywhere. 

Then let’s agree to disagree. In my opinion also being a Man City supporter we are attempting to replicate the system. Inverted fullbacks and 3 man midfield in descending triangle, one DM and two Midfielders in front of Brillante. Now we can be pedantic about calling Luna and Florin AM or CM, they have the same role on both sides of the pitch.

[Harrison]

2 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Then let’s agree to disagree. In my opinion also being a Man City supporter we are attempting to replicate the system. Inverted fullbacks and 3 man midfield in descending triangle, one DM and two Midfielders in front of Brillante. Now we can be pedantic about calling Luna and Florin AM or CM, they have the same role on both sides of the pitch.

Obviously we’re replicating their system. I did a very long post about that exact thing before the season began. But like I said, they don’t have the same roles in defensive transition, which changes our approach in the attacking phases. Don’t think it’s pedantic to correct you though, they’re two distinct positions and the roles they entail are quite different. 

[Mr MO]

16 minutes ago, Harrison said:

Obviously we’re replicating their system. I did a very long post about that exact thing before the season began. But like I said, they don’t have the same roles in defensive transition, which changes our approach in the attacking phases. Don’t think it’s pedantic to correct you though, they’re two distinct positions and the roles they entail are quite different. 

Perhaps you believe they are different because Florin hasn’t been able to execute the role?

Why do we see Luna more tracking back, pressing and making forward runs and What’s Florins role then? No drive forward and backward.

16 minutes ago, Harrison said:

Obviously we’re replicating their system. I did a very long post about that exact thing before the season began. But like I said, they don’t have the same roles in defensive transition, which changes our approach in the attacking phases. Don’t think it’s pedantic to correct you though, they’re two distinct positions and the roles they entail are quite d

Edited January 27, 2020 by Mr MO

[Missing_Moy]

Either way florin doesn’t go in hard enough on defence and doesn’t create enough going forward he is ok at both 

[Harrison]

10 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Perhaps you believe they are different because Florin hasn’t been able to execute the role?

Why do we see Luna more tracking back, pressing and making forward runs and What’s Florins role then? No drive forward and backward.

Not really. I don’t rate the guy that highly you know, I just don’t agree that he’s quite as bad as you make him out to be, a bit like me and Jack Hendry 😁

I see him as having certain qualities, and my point about his role in our system is that he must do things beyond just creating and I appreciate that. His defensive work goes pretty much unnoticed.

He’s definitely not as effective as Luna going forward, agree with that. And I think Luna has a bigger engine now, so he’s able to track back more and lead the press. Also, usually one CM will sit a bit deeper if the other makes a forward run, that’s quite common. It seems like our system requires Luna to do that more often (as he is often further forward anyway) and Berenguer tends to sit deeper and combines with the RB and RW in the half spaces.

Either way, we probably agree that both can’t wait till Berenguer goes, so we don’t have to argue about him anymore! 

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, Harrison said:

Not really. I don’t rate the guy that highly you know, I just don’t agree that he’s quite as bad as you make him out to be, a bit like me and Jack Hendry 😁

I see him as having certain qualities, and my point about his role in our system is that he must do things beyond just creating and I appreciate that. His defensive work goes pretty much unnoticed.

He’s definitely not as effective as Luna going forward, agree with that. And I think Luna has a bigger engine now, so he’s able to track back more and lead the press. Also, usually one CM will sit a bit deeper if the other makes a forward run, that’s quite common. It seems like our system requires Luna to do that more often (as he is often further forward anyway) and Berenguer tends to sit deeper and combines with the RB and RW in the half spaces.

Either way, we probably agree that both can’t wait till Berenguer goes, so we don’t have to argue about him anymore! 

We aren’t arguing, I just don’t like the use our system to defend why Berenguer plays how he plays. Let’s say Luna and Florin have different tasks on their side of the pitch. How come we see more drive forward, when Brillante takes on that Florin role? My point was, it’s the player not the system.

[belaguttman]

35 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

My point was, it’s the player not the system.

He was in Ligue 2, not Ligue 1

[Harrison]

1 hour ago, Mr MO said:

We aren’t arguing, I just don’t like the use our system to defend why Berenguer plays how he plays. Let’s say Luna and Florin have different tasks on their side of the pitch. How come we see more drive forward, when Brillante takes on that Florin role? My point was, it’s the player not the system.

Because Brillante is a better player?

And of the roughly six or so times Brillante has played there, Luna has been the other CM only once, and Brillante was actually further forward in that match. I don’t think Luna had the same role IIRC. Our current midfield system is the set-up we’ve gone with for the last month and when those three have all started, we haven’t lost yet. 

And we could obviously replace Berenguer with say Genreau and still be as effective, but it’s worth noting that our current midfield three is performing quite well.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Harrison

[Mr MO]

5 hours ago, Harrison said:

It’s probably academic now anyway with Metcalfe and Genreau coming back because he’ll be relegated to the bench.  

All talks aside. I’m not so sure if Berenguer will get dropped anytime soon. I have a feeling our coach is spending a lot of time on him to make it work.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Mr MO

[JMSTEP123]

18 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

All talks aside. I’m not so sure if Berenguer will get dropped anytime soon. I have a feeling our coach is spending a lot time on him to make it work.

Trying to avoid another Budzinski.

Honestly I have seen him play a role well. Its not something others dont offer. It is something he can only reach on occasion (generally V lesser opponenents). Often, he looks devoid of confidence. From where I was sitting on Sat, I watched him as he was largely unaware of his surroundings and opponents pressing in. He is clumsy and prone to turn over the ball in such situations. He was also rarely proactive in asking for the ball in the final 3rd of the pitch, not seeking the ball but rather playing it if it fell to him. Granted, this may be his role - but it also takes someone with drive and creativity to make things happen that are beyond the role assigned. I have seen his potential, but he only achieves this every 3 or 4 games. 

[jw1739]

It's pretty easy to see that this club has won only one trophy in nine seasons when its on-line forum keeps making excuses for a player such as Berenguer.

FFS we've got a dozen youth team players who offer far more than this bloke has.

[Harrison]

5 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

It's pretty easy to see that this club has won only one trophy in nine seasons when its on-line forum keeps making excuses for a player such as Berenguer.

FFS we've got a dozen youth team players who offer far more than this bloke has.

True. Our lack of silverware is on me guys. Apologies. 

[HeartFc]

Don't think its about blame rather a reflection of how we settle for mediocrity as fan base and club in general. Our marquee player should be a star player, banging in goals, bringing in crowds and be head and shoulders above the rest of the team. 

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, Harrison said:

True. Our lack of silverware is on me guys. Apologies. 

You know what I meant. We all do it, not just you. The acceptance of mediocrity is palpable, going to the match, during the match, and on the train going home. The acceptance that we're not going to win the matches that really matter. The acceptance that a 0-0 draw at home against the team just below us on the table was a good result. The acceptance that a marquee player has done fuck all for the club in one and a half seasons. These attitudes personify Melbourne City.

These are some of the reasons our attendances are poor. So far this season our attendances are averaging a mere 1000 above Heart's average for its first season. We've lost almost all the growth that was taking place. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by jw1739

[Originalmeme]

5 hours ago, jw1739 said:

You know what I meant. We all do it, not just you. The acceptance of mediocrity is palpable, going to the match, during the match, and on the train going home. The acceptance that we're not going to win the matches that really matter. The acceptance that a 0-0 draw at home against the team just below us on the table was a good result. The acceptance that a marquee player has done fuck all for the club in one and a half seasons. These attitudes personify Melbourne City.

These are some of the reasons our attendances are poor. So far this season our attendances are averaging a mere 1000 above Heart's average for its first season. We've lost almost all the growth that was taking place. 

well said

[n i k o]

12 hours ago, jw1739 said:

You know what I meant. We all do it, not just you. The acceptance of mediocrity is palpable, going to the match, during the match, and on the train going home. The acceptance that we're not going to win the matches that really matter. The acceptance that a 0-0 draw at home against the team just below us on the table was a good result. The acceptance that a marquee player has done fuck all for the club in one and a half seasons. These attitudes personify Melbourne City.

These are some of the reasons our attendances are poor. So far this season our attendances are averaging a mere 1000 above Heart's average for its first season. We've lost almost all the growth that was taking place. 

The forum is susceptible to negativity. Granted some people feel obligated to diffuse this. But probably worse is when things are sugar coated to be better than what they are. 

Some think the result and performance was good, plenty of positives, which i agree there were some. Really depends on what scale everyone measures it on. Past history suggests a positive result. On a title winning scale it'd appear as a poor result. 

However to me it seemed to be a game where both teams were fortunate the other didn't show up. I was dumbfounded by the number of basic errors made by both teams. 

[Imtellingyou]

Game reflections go through the prism of individual circumstances. 

[rass]

11 minutes ago, Imtellingyou said:

Game reflections go through the prism of individual circumstances. 

Given that most of the people on here are about 12 years old, this is just way too deep. 

[Harrison]

Just purely speculation on my part, I’m wondering if one of our players might be leaving the Club. Might explain why Colakovski was added to the senior squad. Could be someone looking for more game time? Window closes on the 31st. 

[haz]

8 minutes ago, Harrison said:

Just purely speculation on my part, I’m wondering if one of our players might be leaving the Club. Might explain why Colakovski was added to the senior squad. Could be someone looking for more game time? Window closes on the 31st. 

@jw1739what is the squad size currently?

[Harrison]

Just now, haz said:

@jw1739what is the squad size currently?

I can answer that. With Colakovski added we’re at 21 plus Hendry who I think doesn’t count toward the squad because he’s a Replacement Player. We’ve had 20 all season, so I’m guessing that maybe someone is leaving and Stef was added to get us to the minimum 20. Of course, we can have up to 23, but with the cap it’s more a matter of money. 

[CityBoyz]

29 minutes ago, Harrison said:

I can answer that. With Colakovski added we’re at 21 plus Hendry who I think doesn’t count toward the squad because he’s a Replacement Player. We’ve had 20 all season, so I’m guessing that maybe someone is leaving and Stef was added to get us to the minimum 20. Of course, we can have up to 23, but with the cap it’s more a matter of money. 

He is a Homegrown players so he sit outside the cap along with Najjarine, Genereau,Metcalfe, Atkinson and now Colakovski are not included in the cap. 

[Mr MO]

1 minute ago, CityBoyz said:

He is a Homegrown players so he sit outside the cap along with Najjarine, Genereau,Metcalfe, Atkinson and now Colakovski are not included in the cap. 

Are you sure they are outside the cap?

[CityBoyz]

7 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Are you sure they are outside the cap?

Yep heard it on the Foxfootball podcast with the CEO. 
 

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/fox-football-podcast/id726594291?i=1000463302933

7:00

Edited January 27, 2020 by CityBoyz

[Le Hack]

Wouldn't be surprised if this is to thwart any interest from Macarthur  for next year. Didn't they try it on with Atkinson?

[Harrison]

9 minutes ago, CityBoyz said:

He is a Homegrown players so he sit outside the cap along with Najjarine, Genereau,Metcalfe, Atkinson and now Colakovski are not included in the cap. 

Najjarine isn’t because he played for WSW. The others yes. But that would’ve been factored in when we structured the salaries for the other signings, so we might’ve been at the cap ceiling anyway. 

[jw1739]

44 minutes ago, haz said:

@jw1739what is the squad size currently?

 

41 minutes ago, Harrison said:

I can answer that. With Colakovski added we’re at 21 plus Hendry who I think doesn’t count toward the squad because he’s a Replacement Player. We’ve had 20 all season, so I’m guessing that maybe someone is leaving and Stef was added to get us to the minimum 20. Of course, we can have up to 23, but with the cap it’s more a matter of money. 

[CityBoyz]

Need to Re-sign Denis Genreau ASAP 

Edited January 28, 2020 by CityBoyz

[Mr MO]

Interesting that those players are outside the cap. We are also barely meeting the minimum squad requirements in terms of numbers. With Jmac and Berenguer also out of the cap that means remaining 8 to 11 players are completing a cap, I think players like Galloway, Griffiths and Jamieson aren’t cheap either.

[n i k o]

2 hours ago, Imtellingyou said:

Game reflections go through the prism of individual circumstances. 

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. 

[Embee]

17 hours ago, jw1739 said:

You know what I meant. We all do it, not just you. The acceptance of mediocrity is palpable, going to the match, during the match, and on the train going home. The acceptance that we're not going to win the matches that really matter. The acceptance that a 0-0 draw at home against the team just below us on the table was a good result. The acceptance that a marquee player has done fuck all for the club in one and a half seasons. These attitudes personify Melbourne City.

These are some of the reasons our attendances are poor. So far this season our attendances are averaging a mere 1000 above Heart's average for its first season. We've lost almost all the growth that was taking place. 

I think suggesting there's an acceptance of mediocrity in the fan-base, then claiming the poor performances are the main driving factor for a low attendance are directly in opposition to each other.

Something it's also necessary to remember is that this forum is a very small representation of fans who take an active interest in the club, and as such it only taps into a smaller element of the fanbase. A simple scouring of any social media account linked to Melbourne City demonstrates a considerably more negative mindset than you often see on here, again though, how representative of the overall fanbase are those individuals?

I don't think our supporters are largely accepting of mediocrity at all. To be honest, after the last season we endured the progress we've made on the field should indeed be viewed as a positive, even if we're still not where we need to be. Joyce basically took this club back to where we were BEFORE winning the FFA Cup when it seemed like we were ready to hit another gear following our first piece of silverware. We've done it to death on here, but you can't exaggerate just how damaging his tenure at the club was. Disastrous, dour football, insufficient on-field results and multiple fan favourites forced out the door when Joyce was unable to get along with them.  "We've lost almost all the growth that was taking place" Agree, and I feel the majority of that falls on Warren's management tenure.

A draw with Perth on the weekend wasn't a disastrous result, and saying so isn't accepting mediocre results, it's being realistic. Regardless of their current position on the table, Perth are an excellent team and have caused us problems almost every time we've played them recently. We managed to nullify their much heralded strike force and created a couple of chances that we really should have scored (JMac's early chance in particular). The desired result? No. Progress against what we've typically done recently? Yes, in my opinion anyway.

EDIT: Realized I didn't address your Florin comments. Florin's shit, he's not good enough to be a marquee. The club got cute with that and it blew up in their face. However giving Susaeta a short term deal (before hopefully offering a marquee deal if he works out), could demonstrate that they've learned an important lesson there regarding backended marquee deals.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Embee

[haz]

1 hour ago, Embee said:

Realized I didn't address your Florin comments. Florin's shit, he's not good enough to be a marquee. The club got cute with that and it blew up in their face. However giving Susaeta a short term deal (before hopefully offering a marquee deal if he works out), could demonstrate that they've learned an important lesson there regarding backended marquee deals.

Here's a question for the forum,

Would we rather see the strategy of the club as signing potential marquees to long term (2-3 year) back-loaded contracts or signing potential marquees to 'regular' 6-12 month contracts with the view to move them onto a marquee contract the following season.

Pretty much, would we rather see the club take a risk and lock-in a player or play it safe with an initial short term contract and hope they sign a longer contract?

 

Examples for each case:

 

Back-Load

Negative: Stuck with a player like Florian

Positive: Could have hung onto Bart

 

Short Term

Negative: Lose Susaeta if he turns out to be a gun.

Positive: Could have got rid of Florian after his first season.

Edited January 28, 2020 by haz

[Mr MO]

2 hours ago, haz said:

Here's a question for the forum,

Would we rather see the strategy of the club as signing potential marquees to long term (2-3 year) back-loaded contracts or signing potential marquees to 'regular' 6-12 month contracts with the view to move them onto a marquee contract the following season.

Pretty much, would we rather see the club take a risk and lock-in a player or play it safe with an initial short term contract and hope they sign a longer contract?

 

Examples for each case:

 

Back-Load

Negative: Stuck with a player like Florian

Positive: Could have hung onto Bart

 

Short Term

Negative: Lose Susaeta if he turns out to be a gun.

Positive: Could have got rid of Florian after his first season.

I think you are forgetting a third option and they just need to cut all the bullshit, get a real proper marquee player (raise the bar). That means Susaeta level or higher. No backload and a normal two year deal.

All these potentials aren’t going to work.

But if I must chose, it will be short term. It needs to be clear to these players that a longer decent contract is up for grabs if all parties are happy.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Mr MO

[haz]

28 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

I think you are forgetting a third option and they just need to cut all the bullshit, get a real proper marquee player (raise the bar). That means Susaeta level or higher. No backload and two year deal.

All these potentials aren’t going to work.

But if I must chose, it will be short term. It’s needs to be clear to these players that a longer decent contract is up for grabs if all parties are happy.

Either way you still fall into the two traps with a big name marquee.

[jw1739]

57 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

I think you are forgetting a third option and they just need to cut all the bullshit, get a real proper marquee player (raise the bar). That means Susaeta level or higher. No backload and two year deal.

All these potentials aren’t going to work.

But if I must chose, it will be short term. It’s needs to be clear to these players that a longer decent contract is up for grabs if all parties are happy.

I think that this is my position too.

[Jovan]

3 hours ago, Embee said:

I think suggesting there's an acceptance of mediocrity in the fan-base, then claiming the poor performances are the main driving factor for a low attendance are directly in opposition to each other.

Something it's also necessary to remember is that this forum is a very small representation of fans who take an active interest in the club, and as such it only taps into a smaller element of the fanbase. A simple scouring of any social media account linked to Melbourne City demonstrates a considerably more negative mindset than you often see on here, again though, how representative of the overall fanbase are those individuals?

I don't think our supporters are largely accepting of mediocrity at all. To be honest, after the last season we endured the progress we've made on the field should indeed be viewed as a positive, even if we're still not where we need to be. Joyce basically took this club back to where we were BEFORE winning the FFA Cup when it seemed like we were ready to hit another gear following our first piece of silverware. We've done it to death on here, but you can't exaggerate just how damaging his tenure at the club was. Disastrous, dour football, insufficient on-field results and multiple fan favourites forced out the door when Joyce was unable to get along with them.  "We've lost almost all the growth that was taking place" Agree, and I feel the majority of that falls on Warren's management tenure.

A draw with Perth on the weekend wasn't a disastrous result, and saying so isn't accepting mediocre results, it's being realistic. Regardless of their current position on the table, Perth are an excellent team and have caused us problems almost every time we've played them recently. We managed to nullify their much heralded strike force and created a couple of chances that we really should have scored (JMac's early chance in particular). The desired result? No. Progress against what we've typically done recently? Yes, in my opinion anyway.

EDIT: Realized I didn't address your Florin comments. Florin's shit, he's not good enough to be a marquee. The club got cute with that and it blew up in their face. However giving Susaeta a short term deal (before hopefully offering a marquee deal if he works out), could demonstrate that they've learned an important lesson there regarding backended marquee deals.

From my perspective the Perth game could be the pivotal moment under Mombarets and to an extension the club over the next few years. 

The bloke came in and obviously had a clear intention on how we would play and to a point achieved that but also became fully aware of the teams fundamental flaws. And in the Newcastle game and more so the Perth game has adjusted.  We probably won't be as free flowing and open but also tighter in the back.

So the Perth result IMO should be veiwed in relation to the previous games (mostly the losses) and the resetting of the mindset and not veiwed as mediocre 0:0.

Obviously time will tell, but I'm pretty confident with the players returning, the introduction of Susaeta and Hendry the battle for the keeping position we will see a steady improvement for the second half of the season. The bonus is we are now doing this from a very strong ladder position. 

I know historically we have collapsed every time we have reached this point but I genuinely think this time is vastly different. Our next 3, Adelaide Victory and the Nix will truly define exactly where we are at.  

[belaguttman]

17 hours ago, Jovan said:

From my perspective the Perth game could be the pivotal moment under Mombarets and to an extension the club over the next few years. 

The bloke came in and obviously had a clear intention on how we would play and to a point achieved that but also became fully aware of the teams fundamental flaws. And in the Newcastle game and more so the Perth game has adjusted.  We probably won't be as free flowing and open but also tighter in the back.

So the Perth result IMO should be veiwed in relation to the previous games (mostly the losses) and the resetting of the mindset and not veiwed as mediocre 0:0.

Obviously time will tell, but I'm pretty confident with the players returning, the introduction of Susaeta and Hendry the battle for the keeping position we will see a steady improvement for the second half of the season. The bonus is we are now doing this from a very strong ladder position. 

I know historically we have collapsed every time we have reached this point but I genuinely think this time is vastly different. Our next 3, Adelaide Victory and the Nix will truly define exactly where we are at.  

I agree, I think that he's doing a good job, not too surprising now that we have a good coach. We're undeniably playing better as a team than we have in previous seasons. There's a noticeable consistent structure reflecting a style of play, players know their role in the system (of course some can perform it better than others), Le Patron has correctly identified weakness, recruited within the cap to correct them, and is talking about our performance anxiety

Edited January 28, 2020 by belaguttman

[MHFC-FAN]

10 hours ago, Imtellingyou said:

Game reflections go through the prism of individual circumstances. 

Did you paste this straight from Google?