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  1. I will lock this thread after this post. Thank you all for your kind thoughts and words at this difficult time. It means a lot to me. On Sunday afternoon my son and I are hosting a small afternoon tea at home for close friends of my wife - this was her wish instead of a funeral - and so I will not be at the match. I know that we are supposed to remain anonymous on here, but I should be at all the remaining home matches this season, so if anyone would like to come around to Section 19 behind the southern goal to say hello, I'm at the end of row DD next to Section 20. I will close by saying that I received every sympathy from the club when I wrote to the membership team concerning my wife, and I don't think we know, and therefore we can't appreciate, how hard Ryan and his team are working to bring the club closer to its fans, and perhaps we can remember that into the future. Thank you all once again. JW
    30 points
  2. welcome we have a few rules here and some people you should know. 1: there are no rules (except when you get banned) 2: @cadete is the resident sex machine/essay-ist and general sick cunt (contact him if there's any poon that needs slaying/if you need a wingman). also goes by "det", "the cad" or "red scooter hooter" 3: @kingofhearts is det's arch nemesis -- it is unclear why. Only one shall emerge as the alpha 4: @Tesla is the resident mogul. it is unclear how he goes on random trips across the world. it is apparent he bets for a living 5: @Baka1 does steroids, claims natty 6: @malloy is usually gonna be the first person to argue that you are wrong. he will also be the first to argue that he is right 7: @Tony999 next 8: @bt50 is literally a fucking car 9: @tomby and @Hackett are probably dating 10: @jw1739 will be the first mod to ban you for anything remotely right wing 11: @BeardedHeart is like big foot. we all know he's alive but nobody really sees him on the forum 12: @n i k o and @thisphantomfortress and @KSK_47 are ok, don't think anyone has wished death on them yet the rest of us are pretty nice guys and (some) girls. i'll be in active, say hi i'll grab you a beer! nobody has found me yet, I have a scorpion tattoo on my neck and a half-sleeve. Cheers!
    29 points
  3. Just getting in early.
    26 points
  4. Confirmed probs should have added I didn't make this, found it on ze twitter
    26 points
  5. Be fair. Give him 6 seaaons before we make any judgments
    26 points
  6. HI all I havent posted since just after the takeover as I didnt want to seem like being part of this 'wave' of UK city fans imposing on your forum... however..Ive gotten up early as often as I could and supported City (sometimes to be bemusement of the wife), and I read this forum on a daily basis. As a Man City sesaon ticket holder, and a Melbourne City Fan, congratulations - enjoy it and I hope there is many more to come.
    25 points
  7. ========================= Time for some detective work: ========================= 1. His last location was "Ristorante La Nepitella". 17 hours ago 2. This is at Lago di Bracciano, about 45mins from Rome International Airport 3. From the attendant in the red hat on his tv, I assume that's Emirates. 4. He posted that story 40 minutes ago, although it looks like it wasn't taken directly on Instagram (not sure how Instagram works) 5. Let's assume, that he did take the image and posted it immediately. I also assume that he posted this while boarding, not in the air. 6. Therefore, what Emirates flights took off from Rome international airport between 3pm and 4pm CEST. 7. At 3:25pm CEST, Emirates EK 98 departed for Dubai. If he was flying elsewhere in Europe he wouldn't be going through Dubai 8. That flight arrives in Dubai around 11:30pm Dubai time. 9. Since Dubai is the flight hub for Emirates, I doubt he would be changing carriers (ie. Etihad), hence now we look for Emirates flights from Dubai. 10. A further Assumption is that the average transfer time is between 2-4 hours. So what Emirates flights take off (there will be heaps) during between 2am and 4am Dubai time. 11. Flights of interest are, EK408 Melbourne - 02:40am and EK420 Perth - 02:45. ...... I really have no life. But my conclusion is that if he is indeed coming to us, the announcment will be Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday morning.
    24 points
  8. lol, the pissants who were responsible for the flare are anything but what you've described there. More like self-interested little pricks who have been around 5 minutes, turn up whenever they like and are more concerned about their own reputation and image above the atmosphere of active or the enjoyment of others. Whether you like flares or not doesn't matter, the fact is they're illegal and terraces are being punished heavily for the use of them, a great example of that tonight was when the real hard working supporters who put effort into the leadership and maintenance of the terrace had most of their equipment removed because some little shit in the front two rows wanted his 30 seconds of fun dancing around around in the smoke. Times have changed, the governing bodies are coming down harder on these actions, again, whether people agree with that or not is immaterial, it's simply the reality of the matter. The fact is that these fans have two options; understand that these restrictions are there and that breaking them will only lead to punishment for their team and fellow fans and make the decision to cease the behaviour OR selfishly continue the behaviour and let everyone else wear the negative outcomes of an Active Area without flags, megaphones or capo stands...but hey, at least they get to rip their flares right?
    23 points
  9. Yeah I noticed. I really don't get the criticism of him on here at all. The guy is clearly a fantastic leader, he scores goals including big goals in big games, he does an incredible job promoting the club and the league and tonight he got us the win just like he has several times this season. What more do people want from him? He's genuinely doing exactly what he's being paid to do. If you were expecting him to come out here, run his nuts off for 90 minutes up and down the park and be a creative midfielder you've clearly never watched him play for any of his previous clubs or the national team. At the end of the day Cahill has made a name for himself by being one of the best poachers going around. He knows where to be and when to be there, he scores headers and tap ins and then the occasional belter. He's not a Kilkenny type player with a massive engine who runs and moves the ball all day. He's a finisher and a bloody good one at that. I also couldn't give a flying fuck what we're paying him and neither should anyone. At the end of the day he's basically a bonus marquee completely outside the salary cap being paid for by one of the richest men in the world on our behalf. It's not like our memberships are what's paying him like the Heart marquees of old. At the end of the day he's not the reason we're playing worse than last season as so many people on here want to believe. The reason we aren't as good as last year can be summed up in two words: Aaron Mooy. You don't lose the best and most influential player in the history of the league and expect to be as good the next season. It was never going to happen. We are currently third on the table and we've been in the top three for pretty much the whole year. We have a caretaker coach replacing an almost entirely unsuccessful coach and we've already won silverwear this season. We also won tonight in case nobody noticed? I get that people are frustrated but fuck me just a couple of years ago we wouldn't have even been able to dream of a season as good as this one currently is. Lighten the fuck up everyone and lay off the bloke who won us three points tonight. /rant.
    23 points
  10. @jeffplz @strider @n i k o @Jovan @thisphantomfortress @haz @KSK_47 @Tesla I am back bitches xx miss u guys
    23 points
  11. Reckon I teared up a little bit watching the highlights package this morning. I was at the damn thing and watched the replay yesterday but it only really hit me this morning just watching the scenes after the final whistle. I’m a grown ass man tearing up at a highlights package. But who the fuck cares…I’ve been watching this club battle and battle and battle since 2010. I’ve watched us put out honest triers for years, knowing we’d never get trophies, all the while watching Victory and then Sydney dominate. It was beyond frustrating. Then CFG changed everything, some things for the worse but most things for the better. For a moment there it all seemed too much. Well now we’ve won a title, with a whole bunch of academy products (including a kid who is a lifelong fan) and it feels fucking glorious. It’s only a game. A stupid game in a league derided as a bit of a joke. But it’s also one of the best moments of my life. And I’m happy for the club, thrilled for everyone who did it, but I’m even happier for us guys (and ladies) who live and breathe the club, show up midweek at dead rubber matches, and post on a tiny forum with an active community of 50 posters. I hope it brought and brings you all as much happiness as it has for me.
    22 points
  12. How to support Melbourne City, a calendar guide: OCTOBER: "Wow we've started the season really well. The way we played in the first game was really impressive, and we won the derby! This really feels like our year." NOVEMBER: "Things are still looking up! Yeah we've dropped a few points against teams we should have beaten, but the squad looks like it's beginning to gel nicely. Once we get *insert visa player here* back from injury we'll be unstoppable!" DECEMBER: "Gee we're starting to look shaky here. The club need to spend big in January. Hopefully we can bring in some injury replacements for *insert visa player here* and *insert squaddie here*. We're falling a bit off the pace now, and the Christmas derby will probably be the defining moment of our season. If we win it we'll get some momentum for the second half of the season!" JANUARY: "I can't believe we haven't brought in any injury replacements for *insert visa player here* and *instert squaddie here*. If CFG are serious about us getting anything from this season they need to start investing in the squad. I was pretty disappointed to see *insert promising youth player on the fringe of the squad* get sold. He looked like he had potential. Ah well we still have plenty of depth to cover him." FEBRUARY: "Oh for fucks sake! I can't believe *insert visa player here* is still out for a Germano! We really needed to get an injury replacement in January. And now that *insert decent Aussie player here* and *insert squaddie here* are out we're going to be absolutely screwed at *insert key position here*. If only we'd never sold *insert promising youth player on the fringe of the squad* we wouldn't have to rely on playing kids there! We haven't won a game in ages and it's disgraceful that *insert any player here* said he thinks we're doing okay! We're a joke and *insert terrible manager* is doing nothing to fix it." MARCH: "THAT IS IT! THAT IS THE FINAL FUCKING STRAW! I have given my heart and soul for this club! And after all those long years of supporting a franchise I still can't believe CFG have taken over and turned my belived franchise into nothing but a plastic franchise! If *insert visa player here* hasn't recovered from his calf strain within the next few weeks this season is over. I am so sick of this shit. Bring on the offseason." APRIL: "Well there it is. Another summer of my life down the fucking tube watching this group of no-hopers walk around not caring about the fans and accepting mediocrity. I'm out. Officially out. I know I said that last year but I've finally hit my limit. I can't do this any more. I can't believe we've lost another semi-final. Now we have to watch *insert club with annoying supporters* lift another bloody trophy. Why can't CFG make us more like that? The unwavering passion of us desicated fans should be enough reason for them to invest millions and millions of dollars into a little club at the arse end of the world. On that note did I mention I wont be renewing my membership next year?" MAY: "Well it's about time the club finally got rid of *insert squaddie here*. It's a shame that *insert visa player here* still has another 17 years left on his contract. Why do we always sign players over the age of 30? Next season I hope CFG invest in a good young batch of visa players at their prime. I want us to pry a young tallented kid away from his future of earning millions playing in the best leagues in Europe and bring him over here to play in front of us dedicated 5000 fans in the heat of the Australian summer for a small enough wage to fit into the salary cap. Somebody who could be our Thomas Broich except much better. Also I'm expecting an announcement about our new manager any day now." JUNE: "What are CFG thinking?! Why on earth have they re-signed *insert shit manager here* for another two seasons?? Can't they see he's useless. This club shows no ambition. I'm out. Not getting a new membership." JULY: "Why on earth have we signed *decent ALeague player on minimum wage*?!? We should be targeting payers like Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo for our bench! This club is so happy with mediocraty it's disgusting. I AM OUT" AUGUST: "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS SHIT! Have you seen the prices for memberships this year?!? How can they justify an increase in price after how terrible last season was?!? I remember when this club used to care about the fans and listen to our input. This really is the final straw for me. I am out for good." SEPTEMBER: "Our squad is coming together really nicely on paper. This is probably the best squad we've ever had. Surely even *insert shit manager here* has to win the league with this team. After going to the FFA Cup game last week and seeing us demolish *insert state league 2 team here* has really made me excited for the new season. I've bitten the bullet and bought a membership, come on City!" repeat until death
    22 points
  13. is "knock" pommy slang for "the team"
    22 points
  14. In other news I went to see Melbourne Storm for something different today. 16 thousand in the stands. Dead and dull atmosphere. Made me proud of what we do with 8g in the stands. What needs to be done to grow support for the club? Its going to be very slow - probably generational. You chose City for a reason, if you feel those reasons are justified to stick with City, then stick to City, promote City, be present and be part of the foundations that (I Hope) are going to last for many generations to come. About culture: do not trivialise it. Culture grows, it is not manufactured. It will only grow if we feed it right. We live in a Victory dominant city. We are the lesser team. But not Forever. Keep the hope alive, keep supporting and project this passion another 5, 25 and 50 years into the future. Thats right son, I was there to see the Aaron Mooy. I witnessed the clubs greatest striker, Bruno Fornaroli. I was there when we won our first FFA cup. I was there when we won our first A League championship. I was there when we won in Asia. I was there... History is being written lads. We are part of it. Be proud.
    20 points
  15. I just want to say it's been a pleasure being a member of this forum. We have collectively suffered for years through the pain of mediocrity and unfilled potential. This is the single greatest moment since that 1-0 loss against CCM. Enjoy lads!!! (PS FUCK OFF SYDNEY)
    19 points
  16. The club can't win in the medias' eyes and are quite an easy target. Top of the league - Media Reaction: Where are the crowds? Sign Australia's Melbourne-born first-choice number 9 - Media Reaction: Not a big enough name. Plays experienced players - Media Reaction: Need more Youth. Plays the Youth - Media Reaction: Just a Youth Farm for CFG. Signs proven A-League players - Media Reaction: Recycled hacks. Signs overseas player - Media Reaction: Who? Sign Zlatan. Wears Sky Blue - Media Reaction: Should have kept Red and White. Wears Red and White - Media Reaction: No crowd there to see it anyway. Beat Western United - Media Reaction: Meh WU beat Victory - Media Reaction: A new Derby is born! The only way to shut everyone up is the win the toilet seat.
    19 points
  17. Remember the photo blog website The History of Melbourne Heart? I credit them for getting into sport photography myself and have taken the initiative to collaborate with Matt Mcindoe from Talking City, to develop a new digital library platform for the current era of Melbourne City. I will be amongst City Terrace with a film camera (and at times, at pre-game meet ups) while Matt will be working along the wing to capture the action and the terrace itself. Hope you will all enjoy the work throughout this season and remember to bookmark it! https://behindthelensmcfc.blogspot.com/
    18 points
  18. FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!! FUCK YOU ANDY HARPER!!!
    18 points
  19. FWIW, I reckon Joyce is going ok. Yeah there may have been some things he could have done differently, but all in all, the team is good shape. I think he can only choose who he sees is training the hardest, is suitable for the job that week and with caution to changing a winning side. I also think he won't buckle down to TC's pressure and will continue doing things his way. On some of the matters of concern here on the forum, I can confirm Brandan, Ross and Timmy all trained today. The only missing were Bruno (doing work inside) and Carrusca. Brandan looks ok, but in game scenarios it is obvious he is very rusty and judging by some of the sprints, he's still a way to go before being fit. But he's probably not that far off breaking into the game day squad - won't happen this week however imo. I reckon we'll see some interesting changes this week that should please a few of us on here. Scratch that - most of us on here are happier thinking the world would end, so no doubt would find issue in anything we do, unless we win 14-0 every week. Oh and Budzinski is getting fitter week by week and running much better than what he did when i watched him train before Round 1.
    18 points
  20. Friends, we have been blessed with two instant cult heroes, legends before they even put on a Melbourne City kit, but who is the greater of the two? Brandan - honestly just read his thread. He has kept us thoroughly entertained from the first time we got a glimpse at him. But on the field he delivers also, wether it's his funny waddle that turns into an olympic sprint when he get sight of the ball (or some shard), beefing with defenders twice his size, beating up advertising board, or just walking through opposition defences like they arent even there. Putting all that fun aside, he has also been pretty much our best player so far this season. Brattan - possibly the greatest troll to ever step onto a football pitch. Where do I begin? The haircuts? Or the fact he is honestly just taking the piss 90% of the time with his passes? Doing little 360 spins and still flicking the ball perfectly to a team mate, because passing it normally is just too easy for him. Or maybe it's that he walks over to raging Visitards multiple times during a derby and just smirks at them for a good 30 seconds to make their little heads explode? I don't know, but he is fucking great. Again, all fun and games put aside, he is the only other player up there with Brandan as a contender for our best player so far this season. So what is it, are you trolling and getting shit hair cuts with Team Brattan, or are you hitting the crack dens with the Brandan Gang?
    18 points
  21. I am currently in Uruguay, had a kid ask where I was from and when I said melbourne he went nuts and asked me if I knew Bruno. They all seem to know him here and love that I know him. They're all also surprised how well he's doing in Aus.
    18 points
  22. Give me my money cunt.
    17 points
  23. The A League should do a lot of things. But being the bunch of inept fuck nuggets they are you have a better chance of winning tatts.
    17 points
  24. I had to read that four times and I still got no idea wtf you are on about.
    17 points
  25. Is that where you get the full service, then leave and hope the Germans will foot the bill?
    17 points
  26. I have read this 3 times already and still have no idea what you mean.
    17 points
  27. about as good as Australian left backs get at this level, and a massive improvement over Rose. very happy
    17 points
  28. So. all these so called rusted on fans are disappearing all of a sudden. The rusted on coat must have fallen of to reveal the true fair weather fan, honestly some of you people really need a reality check. This is NOT the premier league or the SreieA or the La Liga for goodness sake get behind your club and the new manager , give them all the true support they need and if things do not change then i am sure that CFG will do something about it, so stop all this doom and gloom .
    17 points
  29. I find this hard to believe - a) ange seems to run a pretty tight ship; and b ) most of them play in Europe and China
    17 points
  30. Probably nodding and saying "@thisphantomfortess knows what a girls wants"
    17 points
  31. His problem is everyone's problem. Our team is shit and we know it and the inevitability of dissapointment is so real that it's best to just remove ones self from intellectual discussions about the intricacies of us improving and better to focus on talking shit and stirring the fuck out of other forum members for the entertainment because while we are tired of the results we can't leave the forum as it fills the empty hole in us that we can't find outside of here and we're simply masochistic cunts that keep coming back for more and more pain and don't think I'm putting a full stop at the end of this sentence now that I've got this far
    17 points
  32. TBH I think we should all back off now. van 't Schip senior is in palliative care, and anyone with any experience with having someone close to them in such care will know that is a very difficult situation for everyone. We don't know what JvS' father is suffering from, but some of these diseases where the body just shuts down and takes seemingly an age to do so are evil in the extreme. I would not wish my worst enemy to go through what these people and their families have to go though. JvS has not been a successful coach for us, but IMO we can be respectful at this time whilst also looking for a better future for City in due course. Just my two-penn'orth.
    17 points
  33. For all the shit we give CFG and what seemed to be the complete disregard for our history. This is the single greatest thing they have done for the real fans of this club, the ones who have been here for 10 years
    16 points
  34. After the match against Wanderers I'd like to see Jako stay with us. Our back line of Atkinson, Jako, Schenkeveld and Jamieson is pretty good. Let them stay together for at least another season.
    16 points
  35. FWIW I don't buy the "lack of playing time" argument for one moment tbh. I think there is more going on here. Round 1 vs Brisbane. 0 minutes as he was away with the Roos. Round 2 vs Victory. 10 or so minutes off the bench after playing 120 for the roos mid-week. Round 3 vs Wellington. 8 or so minutes off the bench. Team won the week before, no need to shuffle things around too much. Round 4 vs Adelaide. 20 minutss off the bench. Our starting striker scored two goals and he still got 20 minutes. Round 5 vs Sydney. Started and got injured. Withdrawn after 25 minutes. Round 6 vs Wanderers. 0 minutes as unavailable with the Socceroos. Round 7 vs Brisbane. 0 minutes, club listed him as unavailable due to ongoing ankle injury from Sydney game. Round 8 vs Perth. 25 minutes off the bench. Return from injury. Round 9 vs Newcastle. 15 minutes off the bench. This is a striker who has yet to score a goal for us this season. Our other striker is second in the league's golden boot standings. As you can see, he hasn't exactly been fully available, and when he has been he hasn't exactly been doing a lot for us on the park. He even mentioned in his statement yesterday that he is still carrying the ankle injury from the Sydney FC game. The worst part is that the last game he played before his game-time comments he actually started. The playing time argument he makes is bullshit imo and there are reasons behind the scenes that he's leaving. According to his autobiography, Timmy sees himself as a real leader at every club he plays for, and likes to be heavily involved in helping the coaches make decisions. He speaks about how both he and Thierry Henry basically coached New York Red Bulls whilst their manager was just there for looks essentially. There was also a rumour coming out of the City camp last season that JVS had lost the squad and that Cahill was doing basically most of the coaching himself. Now I don't know about you, but Warren Joyce doesn't exactly strike me as the kind of bloke who would want to let a player do most of the decision making for him. He seems like the kind of bloke who would not want his authority questioned. If you ask me, Valkanis got the sack by Marwood and so did Timmy.
    16 points
  36. And then post match he talks about focusing on the big derby at the weekend. Whether he plays or not, or for how long, he's an asset to have in the dressing room.
    16 points
  37. Hey all, I'm back from China for several weeks. For multiple reasons, it was much harder to follow the team from over there then expected. But anyway now I look forward to seeing the team up close, and watching every minute of every match! I've seen some of pre-season, but overall I've got a lot of catching up to do. In particular, I'm very keen to see how some new elements--new coach in Joyce, new players in marquees like Budzinski and McCormack (rep. for Fornaroli, I know), and a pretty new defence--impact the team. Also, I gather the league has tightened this season, with seemingly strong recruiting from every club. So this season looks very interesting from the outset Look forward to being at our truly top class stadium AAMI Park later to see the action!
    16 points
  38. We know more about what's happening at Biggiesmalls than we do at Bundoora.
    16 points
  39. ITT: Hellenic Hero enjoys beating a possible child abuse victim at the only thing that allows him to connect with his father.
    16 points
  40. "Improve our defense" *defense is improved* Moaning ensues "Engage with the fans more" *club engages on social media* Moaning ensues. Honestly, some of you are so impossible to please that its fucking hilarious. We've brought in two tough, solid additons to our back four and rather than praising the positives people will grasp onto whatever negative they can find and beat the club with it. As far as the announcement, it was a bit of fun on social media, should the club go back to being silent so you can all cry about that again? I look forward to the day we win the Championship, not for the celebrations but so that I can come on here and read the mental gymnastics people will undertake to somehow spin it into a negative.
    16 points
  41. Wouldnt be the first time the Greeks have been bad with numbers and economics...
    16 points
  42. Alrighty here are my thoughts: BOUZANIS: Played pretty well tonight. Made me so nervous early on with his botched clearances but did the important stuff and came up with some important stops. MUSCAT: 10/10 performance. Solid as a rock at the back, creative going forward. Definitely an underrated signing, big big fan. JACOBSEN: Hard as nails, stopped absolutely everything, made Berisha look like a bitch and tore him a new one backing up Bouzanis. What a man. ROSE: Quite a good game for him tonight. Maybe he just likes playing Victory? Was very solid at the back and moved the ball quite well. Didn't set the world on fire but was still very impressive. KILKENNY: They say that 71% of the Earth is covered by water, the rest is covered by Neil Kilkenny. Nothing got past him and he moved the ball very well out of defence. Very impressive tonight. BRATTAN: Mooy who? His passing is just out of this world, his touch is phenomenal and his workrate is immense. And how about that cracker of a goal?! Johnny Warren medal please. CACERES: Played really well tonight. Pulled the strings in midfield with Brattan and seemed to be involved with everything. Well played. CAHILL: This guy is a genuine cunt. I absolutely love it. In Berisha's face every time he was near him, dominating everyone when he was on the ball, going in hard to every challenge, and never taking a backwards step. This guy is fantastic. FITZGERALD: Played really well tonight. Was creative and fast going forward, some of his touches were unreal. Linked up very well with Brattan and we scored our second through him and Bruno not giving up. BRANDAN: What an absolute nutcase. So fast, so skillful, so passionate. I love this guy so much already. Knows exactly where to be at the right time. Legend. FORNAROLI: The captain was at his usual brilliant best tonight. Very unlucky not to have bagged a goal of his own, but was always a huge threat and drew a double-team everytime he touched the ball, meaning somebody was always free. Worked his arse off for the second goal, and his passion towards the end and love for Melburnians was so awesome to see. What a beautiful human. RETRE: Played well when he came on, helped solidify us. CHAPMAN: Quite impessive when he came on, was very solid defending and actually looked dangerous going forward. Hope to see more of him soon. FRANJIC: Wasn't on long enough to make an impact but so so happy to see him back playing. What a trooper. Brilliant performance, lets see the same thing Friday night!
    16 points
  43. Now 3 posts! (not totally true as I posted on the old forum and red & white unite). I want to keep my posts to likes ratio so I better take it easy. Next post in 2019 (when we are ACL champions) Before I go, I thought I'd share this from Year 1 - the frame is probably worth more than the shirt
    16 points
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