Round 6: City V Newcastle Plane @ "Lucky you're with AAMI" park 7pm

[n i k o]

3 minutes ago, moops said:

I'm not saying that, but he hasn't been the same after his injury and if he has become lazy or set in his ways I couldn't care less if he is dropped. 

As someone else said, no player should be bigger than the club.

Really? How so? 

[moops]

Just now, n i k o said:

Really? How so? 

How do you know it's the opposite?

We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, maybe he is being the voice of reason and standing up to Joyce about how he wants the team to play, none of us know.

I just think jumping to conclusions over Bruno is a bit much, I have no problems with it.

What I have problems with is the the style of football Joyce wants us to play, it belongs in the 1980's lower leagues.

[belaguttman]

The problem is that :

Joyce has not tailored tactics to suit Bruno's strengths, this has decreased his effectiveness

We have reduced selection flexibility as we have no other real striking options that will increase our chances of winning the title.

It's good that Wales scored, however, this is his first ever goal in the HAL, our season chances rest on him.

Having no other recognised striker also reduces pressure on Bruno

[n i k o]

6 minutes ago, moops said:

How do you know it's the opposite?

We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, maybe he is being the voice of reason and standing up to Joyce about how he wants the team to play, none of us know.

I just think jumping to conclusions over Bruno is a bit much, I have no problems with it.

What I have problems with is the the style of football Joyce wants us to play, it belongs in the 1980's lower leagues.

If it was isolated I'd agree with you more. But, how many issues can one coach have with players and coaches?

Kilkenny

Brattan

Caceras

Bruno

Timmy

Valkanis

Montemurro

[moops]

1 minute ago, belaguttman said:

The problem is that :

Joyce has not tailored tactics to suit Bruno's strengths, this has decreased his effectiveness

We have reduced selection flexibility as we have no other real striking options that will increase our chances of winning the title.

It's good that Wales scored, however, this is his first ever goal in the HAL, our season chances rest on him.

Having no other recognised striker also reduces pressure on Bruno

I thought Wales did well as a shoehorn, I think he could do quite well, I am growing to like the lad.

'Having no other recognised striker also reduces pressure on Bruno' and that there folks is the caveat.

[xXCiTyZeNXx]

Not gonna lie but. I hate whats happening at city atm but we dominated Jets last night. Its probably because Jets has 0 people at attack what so ever and that Glen Moss is a shit keeper but they could hardly get through us. I just wanna see how we go against Perth as they have a much better team then Jets.

 

So pretty much im saying Jets are shit and we should have beaten them and Perth are the big test next week

[Dylan]

Also seems to me that Joyce can’t get out of his head that this issnt England. You can’t just fuck off players and bring in better or equal quality. A salary cap requires a manager to use what he has got and to bring the players along with him.

this bloke seems like you ask him a question and he banishes you until the next window 

1 minute ago, xXCiTyZeNXx said:

Not gonna lie but. I hate whats happening at city atm but we dominated Jets last night. Its probably because Jets has 0 people at attack what so ever and that Glen Moss is a shit keeper but they could hardly get through us. I just wanna see how we go against Perth as they have a much better team then Jets.

 

So pretty much im saying Jets are shit and we should have beaten them and Perth are the big test next week

In no way we were dominant 

[moops]

2 minutes ago, n i k o said:

If it was isolated I'd agree with you more. But, how many issues can one coach have with players and coaches?

Kilkenny

Brattan

Caceras

Bruno

Timmy

Valkanis

Montemurro

Kilkenny - Strange

Brattan - I think he has been good for Brattan, he couldn't get a game in one of the poor championship teams, maybe he needs a kick up the ass every now and then. I have complained about Brattan, all of us have. We see his potential and he is just surfing the proverbial wave and not getting there, last night he was immense.

Caceras - Cue?

Bruno - Who know's.

Timmy - Really?

Valkanis - Yes because he wants to play a different brand of football.

Montemurro - Yes he wants to play a different brand of football, I wouldn't mind him being head coach next year, he is doing amazing things at Arsenal.

[belaguttman]

I thought that we took our chances (as good teams do) but we were fortunate not to concede, it wasn't all down to good defending

[moops]

1 minute ago, belaguttman said:

I thought that we took our chances (as good teams do) but we were fortunate not to concede, it wasn't all down to good defending

And that is down to his coaching and brand of football he wants us to play, nothing to do with Bruno.

[n i k o]

6 minutes ago, moops said:

Kilkenny - Strange

Brattan - I think he has been good for Brattan, he couldn't get a game in one of the poor championship teams, maybe he needs a kick up the ass every now and then. I have complained about Brattan, all of us have. We see his potential and he is just surfing the proverbial wave and not getting there, last night he was immense.

Caceras - Cue?

Bruno - Who know's.

Timmy - Really?

Valkanis - Yes because he wants to play a different brand of football.

Montemurro - Yes he wants to play a different brand of football, I wouldn't mind him being head coach next year, he is doing amazing things at Arsenal.

So of that list, 2 players have had unanswered fallings out, 2 players that Joyce originally liked now can't operate as expected under him, 1 player with a fantastic club record had a falling out and  2 coaches that had opposing views to Joyce had fallings out. Whilst each has a slightly different story there's a common theme here. No ones left on happy terms. Everyone has had an issue with Joyce in some capacity. 

It seems as plain as day to me that he is the problem here. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by n i k o

[moops]

2 minutes ago, n i k o said:

So of that list, 2 players have had unanswered fallings out, 2 players that Joyce originally liked now can't operate as expected under him, 1 player with a fanatic club record had a falling out and  2 coaches that opposing views to Joyce had fallings out. Whilst each has a slightly different story there's a common theme here. No ones left on happy terms. Everyone has had an issue with Joyce in some capacity. 

It seems as plain as day to me that he is the problem here. 

Yes I agree.

But I wouldn't call 2 falling's out as problematic, sometimes people don't get along or click.

It's his coaching that's problematic.

Edited December 3, 2018 by moops

[jw1739]

3 minutes ago, n i k o said:

So of that list, 2 players have had unanswered fallings out, 2 players that Joyce originally liked now can't operate as expected under him, 1 player with a fanatic club record had a falling out and  2 coaches that opposing views to Joyce had fallings out. Whilst each has a slightly different story there's a common theme here. No ones left on happy terms. Everyone has had an issue with Joyce in some capacity. 

It seems as plain as day to me that he is the problem here. 

He's the common factor that we can see, but that's because he's the boss; he's not necessarily the root cause. He was brought here specifically to harden the club up, not necessarily to be nice to people. I'm in no way saying that he's right, but if you're going to harden the club up then you really do have to have everyone right behind you. That's why sergeants-major are hard bastards.

[rass]

33 minutes ago, moops said:

How do you know it's the opposite?

We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, maybe he is being the voice of reason and standing up to Joyce about how he wants the team to play, none of us know.

I just think jumping to conclusions over Bruno is a bit much, I have no problems with it. 

What I have problems with is the the style of football Joyce wants us to play, it belongs in the 1980's lower leagues.

I agree with the behind the scenes stuff: no one really has a clue, we can only speculate.

In regards to the style, I don't think it's that bad. For mine, the issue is that we're trying to play a style that's probably mandated by CFG. Sure, that works for Man City. They play some beautiful football.

.... But we're not Man City and we have to operate in a salary capped league, so we just don't have the cattle to play that patient game where any player on the pitch has the ability to produce that one piece of magic to unlock defences.

So unfortunately, it just won't work for us. Sure we can string a few passes together and last night there were a couple of lovely examples later in the game where it happened. But eventually, we will lose control and then we're vulnerable.

[playmaker]

Don't know what people like about Wales tbh.

He did nothing all game, stuffed up many forward plays and managed to score only because Newcastle were pressing high chasing a 2-0 deficit and their goalkeeper is rubbish.

Any view that he is even close to Bruno is just crap. No one should even be vaguely implying such a thing.

If Bruno goes, the season is over. Any thoughts of a top 4, silverware or Asia is just a fantasy which means Joyce fails.

 

[moops]

1 minute ago, rass said:

 

In regards to the style, I don't think it's that bad. For mine, the issue is that we're trying to play a style that's probably mandated by CFG. Sure, that works for Man City. They play some beautiful football.

 

But that's it, we aren't playing the City way, the victards play the city way more than we do ffs.

[n i k o]

3 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

He's the common factor that we can see, but that's because he's the boss; he's not necessarily the root cause. He was brought here specifically to harden the club up, not necessarily to be nice to people. I'm in no way saying that he's right, but if you're going to harden the club up then you really do have to have everyone right behind you. That's why sergeants-major are hard bastards.

I know what you're saying. And I don't think being nice is necessary at all. I prefer to look at it based on whether he has been able to get the most out of people (including our more talented players and coaches). Most of the players on that list he couldn't work with but have shown great commitment to their clubs in the past. All of a sudden they're problems at our club. Something doesn't add up.

4 minutes ago, rass said:

I agree with the behind the scenes stuff: no one really has a clue, we can only speculate.

In regards to the style, I don't think it's that bad. For mine, the issue is that we're trying to play a style that's probably mandated by CFG. Sure, that works for Man City. They play some beautiful football.

.... But we're not Man City and we have to operate in a salary capped league, so we just don't have the cattle to play that patient game where any player on the pitch has the ability to produce that one piece of magic to unlock defences.

So unfortunately, it just won't work for us. Sure we can string a few passes together and last night there were a couple of lovely examples later in the game where it happened. But eventually, we will lose control and then we're vulnerable.

I agree with that. The question then is how could we recruit so poorly given we have to play a certain way. These players aren't anywhere near up for a possession based high pressing game. 

[moops]

8 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Don't know what people like about Wales tbh.

He did nothing all game, stuffed up many forward plays and managed to score only because Newcastle were pressing high chasing a 2-0 deficit and their goalkeeper is rubbish.

Any view that he is even close to Bruno is just crap. No one should even be vaguely implying such a thing.

If Bruno goes, the season is over. Any thoughts of a top 4, silverware or Asia is just a fantasy which means Joyce fails.

 

He did allright, if he get's more game time there he could flourish.

He is a totally different kind of striker to what Bruno is, you can't expect the same.

[playmaker]

1 minute ago, moops said:

He did allright, if he get's more game time there he could flourish.

He is a totally different kind of striker to what Bruno is, you can't expect the same.

Rubbish, he can't receive a pass and has no vision. He would not be a striker for any other team in the A-league.

 

[cadete]

I have noticed people keep posting lists of blokes that have had differences with Joyce , if you made such for Ferguson right from when he started at Aberdeen all the way through his United years you would have a Short Novella.

And there are a lot bigger names on that list than Bruno, all players can have a shelf life and often some the best can expire the most quickly.

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by cadete

[moops]

Just now, playmaker said:

Rubbish, he can't receive a pass and has no vision. He would not be a striker for any other team in the A-league.

 

I liked what he did last night, it's fine if you disagree, but he is not the kind of player to hold up the ball, he is a poacher like Maclaren, the question is can Joyce come up with a game plan.

[moops]

9 minutes ago, cadete said:

I have noticed people keep posting lists of blokes that have had differences with Joyce , if you made such for Ferguson right from when he started at Aberdeen all the way through his United years you would have a Short Novella.

And there are a lot bigger names on that list than Bruno, all players can have a shelf life and often some the best can expire the most quickly.

 

Agree

[Mr MO]

11 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Rubbish, he can't receive a pass and has no vision. He would not be a striker for any other team in the A-league.

 

Wales had his best game for us against Wellington, on the left flank and able to cut in to his right. He did well there and as a reward Joyce never put him back there. 

[n i k o]

13 minutes ago, cadete said:

I have noticed people keep posting lists of blokes that have had differences with Joyce , if you made such for Ferguson right from when he started at Aberdeen all the way through his United years you would have a Short Novella.

And there are a lot bigger names on that list than Bruno, all players can have a shelf life and often some the best can expire the most quickly.

 

Ok so what's your point specifically with this scenario regarding Joyce? That all those players are done with their careers? 

Edited December 3, 2018 by n i k o

[cadete]

Just now, n i k o said:

Ok so what's your point specifically with this scenario regarding Joyce? 

I did not even watch the game so basically I have an really outsider perspective on the whole thing (Like one you had following EPL in the early-mid 90's) and read it was that Joyce tells players too do the work or fuck off to the extent that he has said to the side's star striker and does not pick him.

The consequence is that in Black and White this result vindicated Joyce, he did only win 3-0 but two of three strikers he chose to play scored goals. In the Back End of the Herald Sun in 1995 if I see that result in the tiny font - I would logically think "Well clearly things worked out for him there".

[Tony999]

1 hour ago, n i k o said:

If it was isolated I'd agree with you more. But, how many issues can one coach have with players and coaches?

Kilkenny

Brattan

Caceras

Bruno

Timmy

Valkanis

Montemurro

Agreed that Joyce makes enemies quite quickly and for no obvious reason but I'd cull half of that list myself as well.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Tony999

[cadete]

The point is every Football Manager has a list of players who blame them for hindering their career when they stopped getting picked for the team... if a Manager cant put himself on the line with such decisions his in the wrong business cos these calls always have to be made at every club.

Almost all the greatest players have been edged aside ESP forwards... the same thing happened more than once to Baggio let alone Bruno.

[n i k o]

38 minutes ago, cadete said:

I did not even watch the game so basically I have an really outsider perspective on the whole thing (Like one you had following EPL in the early-mid 90's) and read it was that Joyce tells players too do the work or fuck off to the extent that he has said to the side's star striker and does not pick him.

The consequence is that in Black and White this result vindicated Joyce, he did only win 3-0 but two of three strikers he chose to play scored goals. In the Back End of the Herald Sun in 1995 if I see that result in the tiny font - I would logically think "Well clearly things worked out for him there".

I didn't follow the EPL in the 90s at all. 

If that's your point then the game last week also worked against Joyce. 

Cadete my point here is not only regarding the decisions and choices Joyce has made but to also be consistent in what I say. Too many people change opinions at the drop of a hat depending on the last game we played. The angle I'm coming from is yes we did play well against a poor Jets but the issues that 99% of his forum had problems with prior to last night still exist today. 

[jw1739]

IIRC:

- People on here were pretty upset by some public remarks Kilkenny made in an interview after one game;
- Cahill challenged the club and manager in public - had to go. You can't do that, whoever you work for.
- Caceres has been repeatedly bagged on here.
- The thought of Valkanis actually getting the gig on a permanent basis after JvS left sent people on here into apoplexy.

There's some short memories on here.

[haz]

1 minute ago, jw1739 said:

IIRC:

- People on here were pretty upset by some public remarks Kilkenny made in an interview after one game;
- Cahill challenged the club and manager in public - had to go. You can't do that, whoever you work for.
- Caceres has been repeatedly bagged on here.
- The thought of Valkanis actually getting the gig on a permanent basis after JvS left sent people on here into apoplexy.

There's some short memories on here.

Remember how Bruno was a waste of space and shouldn't be at the club?

[n i k o]

1 minute ago, jw1739 said:

IIRC:

- People on here were pretty upset by some public remarks Kilkenny made in an interview after one game;
- Cahill challenged the club and manager in public - had to go. You can't do that, whoever you work for.
- Caceres has been repeatedly bagged on here.
- The thought of Valkanis actually getting the gig on a permanent basis after JvS left sent people on here into apoplexy.

There's some short memories on here.

I completety agree with you. I backed every one of those decisions at the time. There's one big difference now compared to then. All those players situations were looked at in isolation. The Bruno decision now makes me wonder what this all means as a collective. So many players and managers gone under one man. How is that possible? 

[moops]

3 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I completety agree with you. I backed every one of those decisions at the time. There's one big difference now compared to then. All those players situations were looked at in isolation. The Bruno decision now makes me wonder what this all means as a collective. So many players and managers gone under one man. How is that possible? 

So players before club in your view?

 

[cadete]

3 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I completety agree with you. I backed every one of those decisions at the time. There's one big difference now compared to then. All those players situations were looked at in isolation. The Bruno decision now makes me wonder what this all means as a collective. So many players and managers gone under one man. How is that possible? 

Because since the day MCFC was born the team has always needed to improve its performances in this period, its not like these decisions are being made to a side that has looked a Title Winner or even performed well enough for the expectations of it's fans.

Personally, I would like to see a Manager making changes than doing nothing considering the above.

[jw1739]

1 minute ago, n i k o said:

I completety agree with you. I backed every one of those decisions at the time. There's one big difference now compared to then. All those players situations were looked at in isolation. The Bruno decision now makes me wonder what this all means as a collective. So many players and managers gone under one man. How is that possible? 

He's the guy who's come in to wield the axe. 

Further thoughts, too.
Montemurro was moved aside from being women's coach some weeks into the second season after we won the GF for the first time. Fishlock had something oblique to say about it - can't remember the specifics.
Assistant Coaches didn't last too long under JvS either - Gerard Nus, Trani, Jolic, and others I can't remember.

[moops]

5 minutes ago, cadete said:

Because since the day MCFC was born the team has always needed to improve its performances in this period, its not like these decisions are being made to a side that has looked a Title Winner or even performed well enough for the expectations of it's fans.

Personally, I would like to see a Manager making changes than doing nothing considering the above.

Agree.

[Jovan]

You know what really bites my crank is that this just a full replay on last season. 

He has had a good 3 months to assess and develop his squad. Then for all differing reasons come January 3 or 4 senior players get moved on. And its happening again. WTF would you move on Bruno Brattan and Caceres in January. Okay this is all complete speculation but if it eventuates and they are replaced by Djite Baccus and who knows no one in their right mind would consider this as a positive. 

I'm still pissed about Kilkenny and Brandan getting axed and if Bruno and Brattan follow will really get me wound up. 

 

[AXIOM]

1 minute ago, cadete said:

Because since the day MCFC was born the team has always needed to improve its performances in this period, its not like these decisions are being made to a side that has looked a Title Winner or even performed well enough for the expectations of it's fans.

Personally, I would like to see a Manager making changes than doing nothing considering the above.

Lets not forget that WJ has put this team together and will be judged accordingly. So if there was to be changes made then why not make them as the start of the pre-season...he did have a chance to do so. 

I agree with Niko too many player fall outs in a short period of time....questions need to be asked as to why? El Tuna is a gun and should not be let go.

[Mr MO]

19 minutes ago, haz said:

Remember how Bruno was a waste of space and shouldn't be at the club?

Said nobody ever! There only has only criticism on him regarding his form, diving antics, adaptability, marquee value etc. That's not the same as wishing him gone without an adequate replacement in line, not being Wales.

Unless you are wording Warren's mind with that line.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Mr MO

[moops]

3 minutes ago, Jovan said:

You know what really bites my crank is that this just a full replay on last season. 

He has had a good 3 months to assess and develop his squad. Then for all differing reasons come January 3 or 4 senior players get moved on. And its happening again. WTF would you move on Bruno Brattan and Caceres in January. Okay this is all complete speculation but if it eventuates and they are replaced by Djite Baccus and who knows no one in their right mind would consider this as a positive. 

I'm still pissed about Kilkenny and Brandan getting axed and if Bruno and Brattan follow will really get me wound up. 

 

Calm down mate, in the global football realm they are nobodies, that's where we are on the global stage, I couldn't care less for them, other than we have upgraded.

[Jovan]

1 minute ago, moops said:

Calm down mate, in the global football realm they are nobodies, that's where we are on the global stage, I couldn't care less for them, other than we have upgraded.

Have we upgraded? 

I would take Kilkenny and Brandan over any existing like positioned players we have now.

And Bruno and Brattan won't be upgraded.