Brisbane Roar vs Melbourne City 10 Feb 2024 KO 6.00 pm

[NewConvert]

I had a prior engagement so completely missed the match but I thought that I would stream it today. Got home, checked the scores, jaw hits the ground, go to bed. Then I checked the forum today and I figure that I could do other things.

As has been stated for several weeks, the backline is old and slow, the midfield, Arslan aside, is not effective, and JMac needs better support. Lopane is an enigma only as far as to why he keeps getting selected. Vidmar is proving inflexible and unimaginative. And list management, which cannot be placed at the feet of the coaches, has been poor.

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, NewConvert said:

As has been stated for several weeks, the backline is old and slow, the midfield, Arslan aside, is not effective, and JMac needs better support. Lopane is an enigma only as far as to why he keeps getting selected. Vidmar is proving inflexible and unimaginative. And list management, which cannot be placed at the feet of the coaches, has been poor.

Excellent summary, fully aligned mostly.

The only thing I can’t find myself in is that we keep saying JMAC needs more support; also last night he got his opportunities he just doesn’t put them away. I know he can’t do anything wrong for many but have our marquee expectations dropped so low we only want him to walk the ball into the goal? He’s is just out of form, this is costly for the team if you can’t contribute in open play much.

Edited February 11 by Mr MO

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

We can't keep using that excuse. What does he mean by "training well?"

who knows what he means but I can't imagine that he is demanding that the team plays like that! I'm not defending Vidmar, only suggesting that the main issue is not being addressed within the playing group

[jw1739]

20 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

who knows what he means but I can't imagine that he is demanding that the team plays like that! I'm not defending Vidmar, only suggesting that the main issue is not being addressed within the playing group

What we've been saying ever since the GF defeat last season.

47 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Excellent summary, fully aligned mostly.

The only I can’t find myself in is that we keep saying JMAC needs more support; also last night he got his opportunities he just doesn’t put them away. I know he can’t do anything wrong for many but have our marquee expectations dropped so low we only want him to walk the ball into the goal? He’s is just out of form, this is costly for the team if you can’t contribute in open play much.

On this, what does Caputo have to do to get more than 10 minutes? He'll just leave if he doesn't get match time.

Edited February 11 by jw1739

[fensaddler]

1 hour ago, Mr MO said:

Comments on last night match below. Vidmar concluded that the team wasn’t competitive! 

https://sportoclock.co.uk/melbourne-city/star-striker-goal-drought-least-of-melbourne-city-fans-concerns/?fbclid=IwAR1fS7DLg7-N7k0VLznn5aw1tMUgfmSiFWywG9ooml8nFUecsAvt-MIcPQA_aem_AT-ZHADJNBZTluh2IMZGzLN6VfFXv_kmeFnYKAXHy0Y8QJ04CMbks8fdAdl_2OmGKQI

That's a bloody awful website. Infested with pop ups.

[Mr MO]

4 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

That's a bloody awful website. Infested with pop ups.

That suits us.

[Mr MO]

57 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

What we've been saying ever since the GF defeat last season.

On this, what does Caputo have to do to get more than 10 minutes? He'll just leave if he doesn't get match time.

In the glimpses we’ve seen he looks more comfortable on the ball, bigger frame to hold up play and good in the air. Not a finished product of course but it’s something we miss up front when the space isn’t there at times.

It’s an annoying and complex situation, your aging marquee captain not standing up when needed most and then out of contract.

We do have history of not taking JMAC despite being on one leg.

Edited February 11 by Mr MO

[MCMLIII]

I know John Didulica. He told me years ago when he was still at the club that they could get anything they wanted from the parent company. As long as they could justify the request it was approved. So how does a club with access to so much end up performing so poorly?

[Mr MO]

3 hours ago, MCMLIII said:

I know John Didulica. He told me years ago when he was still at the club that they could get anything they wanted from the parent company. As long as they could justify the request it was approved. So how does a club with access to so much end up performing so poorly?

Perhaps this is related to facilities etc…

For  players I understand that we run on a strict budge as you say anything more might not be justified. We are not always being the top spender in the competition as we have an internal cap on marquee players. Often we don’t even know who our marquee players are as they are all of similar quality as the capped designated players.

On the justification part, with a little more quality we could have easily earned some of the money back by progressing in the ACL.

Edited February 11 by Mr MO

[NewConvert]

3 hours ago, Mr MO said:

Perhaps this is related to facilities etc…

For  players I understand that we run on a strict budge as you say anything more might not be justified. We are not always being the top spender in the competition as we have an internal cap on marquee players. Often we don’t even know who our marquee players are as they are all of similar quality as the capped designated players.

On the justification part, with a little more quality we could have easily earned some of the money back by progressing in the ACL.

For me the question is how did we end up with such an old backline? City has to honour the contract hence we have three players across the back whose contract comes to an end simultaneously. If none are renewed this means that entire backline has be put together. The mid-field someone thought that Ugarcovic was the answer. That is stupid.

[jw1739]

3 hours ago, NewConvert said:

For me the question is how did we end up with such an old backline? City has to honour the contract hence we have three players across the back whose contract comes to an end simultaneously. If none are renewed this means that entire backline has be put together. The mid-field someone thought that Ugarcovic was the answer. That is stupid.

It's the same up front. Only Mazzeo goes beyond this season.

Dreadful recruiting/contract management by Petrillo all over the park.

[Mr MO]

6 hours ago, NewConvert said:

For me the question is how did we end up with such an old backline? City has to honour the contract hence we have three players across the back whose contract comes to an end simultaneously. If none are renewed this means that entire backline has be put together. The mid-field someone thought that Ugarcovic was the answer. That is stupid.

On the backline, nobody forced us to sign Young, Behich and Soup. Talbot has gone backwards. Perhaps committing to Reis was one season too many. This is just complacency and under estimating the speed and strength of this league.

[jw1739]

18 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

On the backline, nobody forced us to sign Young, Behich and Soup. Talbot has gone backwards. Perhaps committing to Reis was one season too many. This is just complacency and under estimating the speed and strength of this league.

Can understand Aziz, but only for one year. Young and Souprayen simply getting in the way of younger players.

No question in my mind that the present situation is the result of Petrillo's mis-management. We can't keep players, we can't keep coaches, and we're signing players at the end of their careers for too long.

Edited February 12 by jw1739

[neio]

On the Young recruitment, I can actually understand it. We thought we were still very much a contender and we needed a good keeper, preferably Australian. There wasn't too many options, the only keepers that moved teams in the offseason was Hewerd-Belle, Sail, Jack Duncan and Ryan Scott. None of them really excite me, so we would have had to go down the find a keeper to mutually terminate their contract, bring an Aussie home where I don't think there are that many at the age or level to come back or get a visa keeper.

Jamie Young was sort of just the one that fitted for what we needed for 12 months. I would be concerned if he is still out keeper next year as there seem to be some better Aussie keepers available if we still don't judge that Beach is ready for number 1.

[jw1739]

Well, I don't know. We go to the trouble of stealing the highly-rated Beach from Central Coast and give him a three-year contract, and then he hasn't played a minute.

[belaguttman]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Well, I don't know. We go to the trouble of stealing the highly-rated Beach from Central Coast and give him a three-year contract, and then he hasn't played a minute.

Hopefully, Beach is the plan for next season. I can't imagine CCM would have played him over Vukovic anyway

[mattyh001]

19 hours ago, MCMLIII said:

I know John Didulica. He told me years ago when he was still at the club that they could get anything they wanted from the parent company. As long as they could justify the request it was approved. So how does a club with access to so much end up performing so poorly?

starting with the keeping spot, others have covered it well.  Young has always been signed as a short term option where there was probably not much better on offer (particularly from a domestic signing perspective).

on top of that we lost Bos (21) and Lam (30) last season and Atkinson (24) in December 2021.  replacing quality (particularly youngsters in the form of Bos and Atkinson) from the youth academy is never easy.  even signing them from another team's youth academy is no guarantee either - just look at Talbot (22).  he is so inconsistent.  plus the likes of Bos and Atkinson would have been cheap from a salary cap perspective, so it's not like our club can just throw money at it.

Lam is a rather frustrating one for me since he left so late into the post season.  no issues with his reasons for leaving, just the timing.  our club has tended to find some absolute gems (ie Arslan, Sahki) when they have the chance to do their due diligence.  finding a like for like player with such a short turn around for ACL duties (where we had to sign within the registration deadline) was always going to be risky - hence the signing of Souprayen.  

i'm not trying to justify how poor we've been; rather there's probably been a few mitigating events.

Edited February 12 by mattyh001

[Mr MO]

24 minutes ago, mattyh001 said:

starting with the keeping spot, others have covered it well.  Young has always been signed as a short term option where there was probably not much better on offer (particularly from a domestic signing perspective).

on top of that we lost Bos (21) and Lam (30) last season and Atkinson (24) in December 2021.  replacing quality (particularly youngsters in the form of Bos and Atkinson) from the youth academy is never easy.  even signing them from another team's youth academy is no guarantee either - just look at Talbot (22).  he is so inconsistent.  plus the likes of Bos and Atkinson would have been cheap from a salary cap perspective, so it's not like our club can just throw money at it.

Lam is a rather frustrating one for me since he left so late into the post season.  no issues with his reasons for leaving, just the timing.  our club has tended to find some absolute gems (ie Arslan, Sahki) when they have the chance to do their due diligence.  finding a like for like player with such a short turn around for ACL duties (where we had to sign within the registration deadline) was always going to be risky - hence the signing of Souprayen.  

i'm not trying to justify how poor we've been; rather there's probably been a few mitigating events.

Lam departure was publicized straight after the GF, almost in the same articles as VdV. Are you saying the CFG didn’t have time and then signed Soups? I don’t have the calendars in front of me but it seemed there was plenty of time there.

Atkinson and Bos didn’t leave around the same time also they play on opposite wings, I’m failing to see the mitigation factor in the clubs favour here. However the signing of Behich was excellent I have no issues there.

[mattyh001]

5 hours ago, Mr MO said:

Lam departure was publicized straight after the GF, almost in the same articles as VdV. Are you saying the CFG didn’t have time and then signed Soups? I don’t have the calendars in front of me but it seemed there was plenty of time there.

Atkinson and Bos didn’t leave around the same time also they play on opposite wings, I’m failing to see the mitigation factor in the clubs favour here. However the signing of Behich was excellent I have no issues there.

thought the Lam departure was later, happy to be wrong here.

in terms of the other two, my point is that having young players come through takes time to get them into shape consistency wise.  take a look at Talbot; he's has essentially been the player to replace Atkinson.  blokes played over 40 aleague games for us (which doesnt even include cup or champions league games) and yet the guy is so inconsistent.  throw in the fact young players come cheap when they sign, you cant just throw money at the situation when Bos or Atkinson leave since their low wage helps offset the bigger wages we spend elsewhere in a salary cap

and frankly, Talbot is by far the best young defender we have seen come through recently outside of Atkinson and Bos.  in a way, i kinda see a perfect storm

again, not trying to give a free pass to the recruitment team or players; just dont think we can put this down to one simple solution.

[NewConvert]

7 hours ago, mattyh001 said:

thought the Lam departure was later, happy to be wrong here.

in terms of the other two, my point is that having young players come through takes time to get them into shape consistency wise.  take a look at Talbot; he's has essentially been the player to replace Atkinson.  blokes played over 40 aleague games for us (which doesnt even include cup or champions league games) and yet the guy is so inconsistent.  throw in the fact young players come cheap when they sign, you cant just throw money at the situation when Bos or Atkinson leave since their low wage helps offset the bigger wages we spend elsewhere in a salary cap

and frankly, Talbot is by far the best young defender we have seen come through recently outside of Atkinson and Bos.  in a way, i kinda see a perfect storm

again, not trying to give a free pass to the recruitment team or players; just dont think we can put this down to one simple solution.

You are right regarding one simple solution and injuries to Leckie and Nabbout helped cause a perfect storm. The drop in speed and form for Reis was also unexpected. As far as youth are concerned there are many playing at under 15s, then as they get older some lack the drive, others plateau. If you recall Najjarine and Najar had fans in this forum - the latter now plays in Iraq and the former is on his third club. The only talent I am missing is Cola who continues to progress but like Caputo he won't get a look in whilst JMac is here; and maybe Rafa. As far as backline talent CCM has Jacob Farrell and WP have two.

And this is where list management comes in. Also, thinking about young players coming to City because of the CFG connection, I don't think that applies anymore. AU & CCM players have got great contracts overseas; Bos, Tilio, Glover did not go to CFG clubs either.

[jw1739]

Gauci?

Anyway, it doesn't matter in a way. What's done is done. What we need to do as a club is to learn from any lessons that this season can teach us. After a period of sustained success this is not easy for anyone.

Edited February 12 by jw1739

[Torn Asunder]

All this is compounded by Vidmar's negative style  ... he clearly got the gig as he's mates with our recruiting manager.

I just think a coach who is more positive naturally, but still aggressive in their approach, would suit us better ... someone a little more adventurous and with something to prove.  Look at what RZ has done with Brisbane in 2 weeks!  

Someone with some courage to look at a system that better suits JMAC, someone who encourages the team and focuses on the positives, not berates the players for not trying ... 

Also, our club culturally needs to do better when we go behind.  That's a time for knuckling down and not conceding a 2nd, and building back into the game. We just have this approach of trying too hard to score too quickly which opens us up to conceding a 2nd, and then we fall apart ... we dont know how to re tempo a game ... When we dont have the ball, we are not comfortable as a team.  Other teams park the pass and look fine for 90.  We need that in our game as well, so after copping a goal, we can regroup without conceding 

[jw1739]

46 minutes ago, Torn Asunder said:

All this is compounded by Vidmar's negative style  ... he clearly got the gig as he's mates with our recruiting manager.

I just think a coach who is more positive naturally, but still aggressive in their approach, would suit us better ... someone a little more adventurous and with something to prove.  Look at what RZ has done with Brisbane in 2 weeks!  

Someone with some courage to look at a system that better suits JMAC, someone who encourages the team and focuses on the positives, not berates the players for not trying ... 

Also, our club culturally needs to do better when we go behind.  That's a time for knuckling down and not conceding a 2nd, and building back into the game. We just have this approach of trying too hard to score too quickly which opens us up to conceding a 2nd, and then we fall apart ... we dont know how to re tempo a game ... When we dont have the ball, we are not comfortable as a team.  Other teams park the pass and look fine for 90.  We need that in our game as well, so after copping a goal, we can regroup without conceding 

Whilst I completely agree with you, the "park the bus" style does not fit the "high press" theory of the "city way."
The "high press" style of play is very vulnerable to the quick counter-attack. There's a good discussion here. https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/counter-pressing-gegenpressing-football-tactics-explained-klopp-guardiola-bielsa-hasenhuttl/

[Torn Asunder]

yeah JW, I get it, I am only talking about straight after we concede ... its like we're punch drunk or something.  Team needs a better plan for those occasions 

 

[jw1739]

11 minutes ago, Torn Asunder said:

yeah JW, I get it, I am only talking about straight after we concede ... its like we're punch drunk or something.  Team needs a better plan for those occasions 

It does. It's compounded by having a slow defence. As and when we concede, and time permits, we need to revert to a medium press at least, and possibly even the "park the bus" for a few minutes. 

IMO it's a mistake to have a CF as captain. You need a captain in defence or DM to be marshalling the defensive lines in these situations.

The "high press" is a good strategy. What we are not doing is adjusting our tactics within that strategy to suit the presenting situation.

Edited February 13 by jw1739

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, Torn Asunder said:

Someone with some courage to look at a system that better suits JMAC

How do you see building a system around one player? 

1 hour ago, Torn Asunder said:

All this is compounded by Vidmar's negative style  ... he clearly got the gig as he's mates with our recruiting manager.

I just think a coach who is more positive naturally, but still aggressive in their approach, would suit us better ... someone a little more adventurous and with something to prove.  Look at what RZ has done with Brisbane in 2 weeks!  

Someone with some courage to look at a system that better suits JMAC, someone who encourages the team and focuses on the positives, not berates the players for not trying ... 

Also, our club culturally needs to do better when we go behind.  That's a time for knuckling down and not conceding a 2nd, and building back into the game. We just have this approach of trying too hard to score too quickly which opens us up to conceding a 2nd, and then we fall apart ... we dont know how to re tempo a game ... When we dont have the ball, we are not comfortable as a team.  Other teams park the pass and look fine for 90.  We need that in our game as well, so after copping a goal, we can regroup without conceding 

Also screams that we missing good leadership on the field, perhaps with Jamo he was talking and coordination more infield.

[belaguttman]

4 hours ago, jw1739 said:

The "high press" is a good strategy. What we are not doing is adjusting our tactics within that strategy to suit the presenting situation.

What we aren't doing is a team-coordinated high press, and our movement off the ball after the press leaves few options other than a back pass if we do regain possession

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

What we aren't doing is a team-coordinated high press, and our movement off the ball after the press leaves few options other than a back pass if we do regain possession

That’s the onfield leadership we are talking about: being vocal and time the presses accordingly.

[Torn Asunder]

On 13/02/2024 at 1:22 PM, Mr MO said:

How do you see building a system around one player? 

442, with JMac next to Caputo, or Leckie

[Mr MO]

4 hours ago, Torn Asunder said:

442, with JMac next to Caputo, or Leckie

By bringing an attacking player in the midfield could certainly help with tidying up our midfield.

[KSK_47]

On 11/02/2024 at 11:58 AM, Mr MO said:

Comments on last night match below. Vidmar concluded that the team wasn’t competitive! 

https://sportoclock.co.uk/melbourne-city/star-striker-goal-drought-least-of-melbourne-city-fans-concerns/?fbclid=IwAR1fS7DLg7-N7k0VLznn5aw1tMUgfmSiFWywG9ooml8nFUecsAvt-MIcPQA_aem_AT-ZHADJNBZTluh2IMZGzLN6VfFXv_kmeFnYKAXHy0Y8QJ04CMbks8fdAdl_2OmGKQI

Better than "unlucky" I suppose 

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, KSK_47 said:

Better than "unlucky" I suppose 

We're unlucky that we aren't competitive

[moops]

On 14/02/2024 at 3:13 PM, Torn Asunder said:

442, with JMac next to Caputo, or Leckie

Yes, I have been saying this for a while, we need more options than just JMac who seems out of form, Caputo or Leckie playing deeper who can control the ball whilst making late runs would present more options and be less predictable. Also playing on the counter when able would be more beneficial for JMac, as we saw in one game when we did exactly that, CCM I think it was.

I've just seen the game, as I was on a holiday.

We may have recruited some good players like Jeggo etc, but it's round pegs in square holes, Jeggo is more a Jedinak than an O'Neil type player for example. The whole system needs adjusting to suite the players more, we are trying to play like we have in the past with less technical players.

The persistence of Lopane as an attacking player is frustrating, he is limited technically and has no vision, or more precise peripheral vision, many times he looks to just have tunnel vision. He would probably be ok as holding or FB where he has the whole field in front of him. He is a coaches player though, can do everything reasonably, but nothing well.

Defensively it's a shitshow, that 2nd goal was weird, it's like Hall was given a call to leave it, as he had it covered, but just stopped in his tracks and let it go past him. Age is either catching up with Good, or he doesn't care, he has been terrible this season. And as Bela say's, our press is a mess, especially because we commit players forward with a slow defence and don't offer any cover.

Politidis might be the one bright spot, he looks ok going forward, he needs to defend crosses better, but it was the same with Atkinson and Bos, he's one of the young players I have hopes for, as Caputo doesn't seem to get enough game time to show us anything.

Either Vidmar needs to be able to adjust the system and is told to be playing this way restricting what he can do, or he is not the coach to take this club forward.