City tactics 2016-17

[jw1739]

What's interesting to me is that at the beginning of the season and up until we won the FFA Cup we seemed, to my uneducated eyes, to play the football required for the task on hand. Since then however, our football has been the same monotonous possession recipe, irrespective of any other factor, our forward movement just getting slower and slower until the last home match (against WSW) when the second half was the most boring half of football I have seen in my entire life. To me it's beyond comprehension that we are conceding goals repeatedly on the quick counter-attack, and yet persist with the same tactics. IMO there must be other issues at play within the club that we don't know about.

[playmaker]

6 hours ago, jw1739 said:

IMO there must be other issues at play within the club that we don't know about.

 

For any manager not to have drilled a professional team with at least 3 strategies and structures to counter various opponent's styles of play is just plain dumb. 

Doesn't matter which way you look at it, the CFG strategy of 'total/ beautiful football ' is just dumb.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by playmaker

[playmaker]

In the Pep interview:

'Guardiola watched City dominate possession on Merseyside but concede four from the six shots they faced.

Only five teams have a lower haul than their four clean sheets in the league. BBC Radio 5 live pundit Robbie Savage said City "cannot defend" and questioned if Guardiola would now change his style.

City are the only team in the Premier League to have over 50% of possession in every game this season but they have now conceded from the first shot they have faced in four of their last seven games.

"In the bad moments we have to be close. It's awful for my players. We created chances but don't score and when they have a chance, they punish us."'

Sounds like a post match MelbCityFC / JVS report.. you've got to laugh.

[jw1739]

5 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Sounds like a post match MelbCityFC / JVS report.. you've got to laugh.

Except that it's no longer funny. I prefer your previous ending - it's just dumb.

[belaguttman]

Well we are certainly faithfully following the CFG template then, overcommitted going forward with little ability to solve the problem of clinical rapid counter-attacks. This is a part of the normal football cycle between styles that control space and styles that control use of the ball, we are unfortunately coming in as the use of the ball philosophy is reaching a nadir. It'll change again.... eventually.

 

I think that the CFG model controls the ball but slows down the game too much, this plays to the strength of the gegenpress style whilst emphasising the vulnerability that comes from pushing so many players forward.

Edited January 16, 2017 by belaguttman

[kingofhearts]

4 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Well we are certainly faithfully following the CFG template then, overcommitted going forward with little ability to solve the problem of clinical rapid counter-attacks. This is a part of the normal football cycle between styles that control space and styles that control use of the ball, we are unfortunately coming in as the use of the ball philosophy is reaching a nadir. It'll change again.... eventually.

 

I think that the CFG model controls the ball but slows down the game too much, this plays to the strength of the gegenpress style whilst emphasising the vulnerability that comes from pushing so many players forward.

Can you and @playmaker take over as coaches?

Thank you.

[belaguttman]

Just now, kingofhearts said:

Can you and @playmaker take over as coaches?

Thank you.

Sack Bela

Sack @playmaker

[haz]

Just now, kingofhearts said:

Can you and @playmaker take over as coaches?

Thank you.

You'll have to resurrect @belaguttman first 

[belaguttman]

1 minute ago, haz said:

You'll have to resurrect @belaguttman first 

I dunno, my mouldering corpse would be a fairly good imitation of JVS during a game 

I have lost my tan after all those years underground so that probably disqualifies me

Edited January 16, 2017 by belaguttman

[Jovan]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

I dunno, my mouldering corpse would be a fairly good imitation of JVS during a game 

I have lost my tan after all those years underground so that probably disqualifies me

Most games are at night. I don't see the problem. 

[playmaker]

2 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

Can you and @playmaker take over as coaches?

Thank you.

I think every supporter on this forum is that traumatised by the defensive effort of the last few seasons that anyone here would play an 9 0 1 formation with 9 (6 foot 5) CBs not leaving our penalty area ever.

Edited January 16, 2017 by playmaker

[johnno cpfc]

Can you wonder at it when you see what happens so so often in our games specially near the end of the game we are high pressing and have nobody staying back to cover our end of the pitch, for goodness sake someone HAS to stay back but no this not in our style of play that's why we are all so fed up with the so called beautiful football that is being peddled to us.

 

[3 Points]

Caceres identifies the key issues City needs to fix. From what I understand from it, not much will change in regards to tactics. 

http://outside90.com/anthony-caceres-identifies-the-key-issue-stuttering-melbourne-city-have-to-fix-350/

[haz]

8 minutes ago, 3 Points said:

Caceres identifies the key issues City needs to fix. From what I understand from it, not much will change in regards to tactics. 

http://outside90.com/anthony-caceres-identifies-the-key-issue-stuttering-melbourne-city-have-to-fix-350/

What annoys me the most is that even if the players can identify this, how come no one fixes it?? It's like they enjoy losing

[kingofhearts]

Possibly the most generic interview in history.

[3 Points]

9 minutes ago, haz said:

What annoys me the most is that even if the players can identify this, how come no one fixes it?? It's like they enjoy losing

I've hearing from other players the same rhetoric as Caceras. I dont think they can fix it because opposition won't allow them to fix it. They've been worked out. The sad side is that it shows there is no plan B at the club. 7 weeks of the same, looks like another 12 to come 

[haz]

6 minutes ago, 3 Points said:

I've hearing from other players the same rhetoric as Caceras. I dont think they can fix it because opposition won't allow them to fix it. They've been worked out. The sad side is that it shows there is no plan B at the club. 7 weeks of the same, looks like another 12 to come 

That's what I mean. We will never change our style of play because Sheikh Mansour (Or whoever decides on it) won't allow it.

[Torn Asunder]

Players have also lost confidence in the CFG way. We need a massive circuit breaker to turn it around. 

[belaguttman]

2 hours ago, 3 Points said:

Caceres identifies the key issues City needs to fix. From what I understand from it, not much will change in regards to tactics. 

http://outside90.com/anthony-caceres-identifies-the-key-issue-stuttering-melbourne-city-have-to-fix-350/

Quote

“I’m confident we’re heading down the right path and we’ll lift when it’s time to lift.”

surely that time was just after the Brisbane game 6 weeks ago

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, haz said:

That's what I mean. We will never change our style of play because Sheikh Mansour (Or whoever decides on it) won't allow it.

It's not Mansour. Everything I've heard is that he is very hands-off. I also don't believe that it's a CFG-mandated style of play, because that just doesn't make sense (I know that I'm repeating myself). IMO we playing this way because of the inadequacies of our previous coach - which were well-known long before CFG came on the scene - and unfortunately so far our interim coach is just repeating the mistakes of his predecessor. IMO CFG are guilty of one thing -buggering up the best striker the A-League has ever seen (Bruno) by agreeing to sign and play Cahill (in order to gain concessions from the A-League) - but I don't believe (just cannot bring myself to believe) that they are mandating a strategy and match-day tactics that they know are likely to cause City to lose.

I know that I'm repeating myself again, but IMO there's nothing wrong with a strategy based on possession and a high-press - the statistics that we've scored first in 12 league matches out of 15 show that - but there's nothing in such a strategy that says you can't and shouldn't defend properly when using it. That's what our dumb coaching team, and to some extent our players who are being caught too high up the pitch, haven't understood.

This is a local problem and needs a local fix.

[n i k o]

I don't know about that Jw. Trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together isn't easy but the more I see us play the more I'm led to believe we are being given a blueprint to follow from CFG. One that clearly isn't being executed as planned however. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by n i k o

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, n i k o said:

I don't know about that Jw. Trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together isn't easy but the more I see us play the more I'm led to believe we are being given a blueprint to follow from CFG. One that clearly isn't being executed as planned however. 

I'm no better a judge than anyone of course. But I think you've got it absolutely spot on with your concluding sentence, which is the important point.

[playmaker]

22 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

I'm no better a judge than anyone of course. But I think you've got it absolutely spot on with your concluding sentence, which is the important point.

It can't even be executed correctly by Man City with Pep as coach because it is flawed. And it is the last type of game plan you would be using for a lower skilled league like the A league.. bring on Michel's 4 4 2 counter attacking game asap.

[Jestr]

There is nothing beautiful about loosing football games no matter what style you use. 

To just persist with this tactic is just shear lunacy

[n i k o]

On 14 January 2017 at 9:38 PM, jw1739 said:

Fan Representative Group - FRG.

The reason you'd forgotten it's name is because it hasn't met for the whole of this season, and IIRC since last season. City obviously want it to die.

From Chris on City Voice....

"The Fan Representative Group still meet regularly - the last meeting was on 14th December. Is there anything you'd like me to ask those in charge of the FRG meetings?" 

[belaguttman]

from fourFourTwo

Quote

City have won just one of their seven A-League matches since they lifted the Westfield FFA Cup in November and have scored just three second-half goals during that period.

In fact, City have scored just four goals in the final half hour of matches this season - the least in the A-League - and only Perth Glory (12) and Western Sydney Wanderers (11) have conceded more in the same period than the Bundoora-based club (10)

Last season City scored at a rate of 2.28 goals per game and conceded 1.66 goals per game.

In 2016/17, they have tightened up their defence to concede 1.33 goals per game but their attacking output has also dropped to 1.6 goals per game - simply put Valkanis' side doesn't have much room for error.

 

[moops]

TBH I think Brattan needs time on the bench, he is underperforming, while his ego is still in overdrive. I would rather see Malik taking his place, at least he can defend.

[johnno cpfc]

On 1/19/2017 at 1:36 AM, n i k o said:

From Chris on City Voice....

"The Fan Representative Group still meet regularly - the last meeting was on 14th December. Is there anything you'd like me to ask those in charge of the FRG meetings?" 

How about letting us the actual fans know the results of said meetings ???

[Embee]

On 1/16/2017 at 9:52 AM, jw1739 said:

What's interesting to me is that at the beginning of the season and up until we won the FFA Cup we seemed, to my uneducated eyes, to play the football required for the task on hand. Since then however, our football has been the same monotonous possession recipe, irrespective of any other factor, our forward movement just getting slower and slower until the last home match (against WSW) when the second half was the most boring half of football I have seen in my entire life. To me it's beyond comprehension that we are conceding goals repeatedly on the quick counter-attack, and yet persist with the same tactics. IMO there must be other issues at play within the club that we don't know about.

Nothing really changed and that's the crux of the issue.

Team's weren't prepared for us and our approach at the start of the season which lead to some of those brilliant results in the early period during the league and Cup. As time went on our system was worked out and weaknesses were pinpointed and counter-strategies honed. As with just about every season of the JVS tenure, once we were found out we were completely unwilling to adapt or compromise the style we wanted to play and therefore continue to play into the hands of just about every team in the league.

If John had of stayed he would have made a slight tweak to our tactics in about 2-3 games time which would have lead to one of those trademarked mini-runs until were again found out and out form petered out, likely in time for a semi-final exit.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Embee

[haz]

Interesting watch

[Deeming]

The Simpsons predict the future again: Melbourne City's tactics

[johnno cpfc]

Do we actualy have TACTICS, i don't recall seeing any for quite a time.

 

[HEARTinator]

12 minutes ago, johnno cpfc said:

Do we actualy have TACTICS, i don't recall seeing any for quite a time.

 

Try looking into a bowl of spaghetti - you'll see endless loops of pasta crashing into each other. That's us 

[belaguttman]

9 hours ago, johnno cpfc said:

Do we actualy have TACTICS, i don't recall seeing any for quite a time.

 

Yes we do, they appear to be:

Maintain possession as much as possible. This means being cautious with forward passes if there's a risk that we might lose position. Circulate the ball (too slowly) to try and draw opponents out of position.

Attack using the width of the pitch. Now that we don't have a real number 10, certainly not one of Mooy's quality, attack through the Bfs or wingers and cross the ball to the first defender. Either the wingers attack quickly and are trapped into the corner as there are no forward players to pass to or the ball is crossed when the opposition has 2 deep laying lines of 4 with little space in the box if the ball even gets past the first defender

Defend with a high line to compress the space and combine this with an often uncoordinated but manic press for 70 minutes

[jw1739]

Seems it's not unique to City. Here's a snippet of a report on Liverpool's shock FA Cup exit last night (my highlighting):

"Liverpool have now won just one game in eight in January, with the Reds reliving recent mistakes as they failed to break down an organised team while also showing crippling defensive frailty.

Their weakness at the back was exposed inside the first minute, the hosts conceding a free-kick on right for the left-footed Costa to swing in a dangerous cross, with Origi and Georginio Wijnaldum failing to pick up Stearman, who easily headed in at the back post.

The other symptom of Liverpool's January blues was also apparent as they dominated territory and possession but could not unpick a well-drilled Wolves defence, the previously free-scoring Reds having managed only six goals in those eight games."

[Shahanga]

7 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Seems it's not unique to City. Here's a snippet of a report on Liverpool's shock FA Cup exit last night (my highlighting):

"Liverpool have now won just one game in eight in January, with the Reds reliving recent mistakes as they failed to break down an organised team while also showing crippling defensive frailty.

Their weakness at the back was exposed inside the first minute, the hosts conceding a free-kick on right for the left-footed Costa to swing in a dangerous cross, with Origi and Georginio Wijnaldum failing to pick up Stearman, who easily headed in at the back post.

The other symptom of Liverpool's January blues was also apparent as they dominated territory and possession but could not unpick a well-drilled Wolves defence, the previously free-scoring Reds having managed only six goals in those eight games."

Thanks for reminding me. 

[moops]

On 24/01/2017 at 8:15 PM, haz said:

Interesting watch

Pretty much, I would like the Hynckes 442, but we lack a couple of players. I posted this on 442, it would work with these tactics in mind, the only problem being Brandan rarely defends or does it with any conviction.

My 2c

442
Fornaroli can drop deep like he does, whilst Cahill can stay central, which suits him better.
Without the creativity in the middle, we have to find that out wide, while the central midfielders need to be the workmen. So I would probably have Malik and Kilkenny central, Brandan and Colazo out wide, left and right respectively.
Muscat LB (I don't really like Rose as a defender), Franjic on the other side, whilst Jacobsen and Tongyik central.
Sorensen GK.
We have Fitzy, Kamau or even Caceras who can come on to wide areas.
Brattan central, and if Cahill comes off for Caceras we can swap to a 4213.
We are very light on in defenders, if we still had Chapman, I would consider experimenting as starting him at LB for a bit, he is capable of carrying the ball forward and was not terrible at RB early on in the season.
But another option would be to play Colazo at LB, wich was the position he was signed on to play and have Fitzy or Caceras playing up front instead. 

[Torn Asunder]

Just watching Real Betis vs Barcelona. Even Messi & Co struggle to break down a compact, well organised counter attacking team with two banks of four defending. Leicester last season has changed the game and City Group needs to adapt and change its tactics (there can still be an attacking philosophy) otherwise there will be no success for its teams for a long time. If Barcelona can't make these tactics work, what chance do we have.

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Torn Asunder

[GreenSeater]

32 minutes ago, Torn Asunder said:

Just watching Real Betis vs Barcelona. Even Messi & Co struggle to break down a compact, well organised counter attacking team with two banks of four defending. Leicester last season has changed the game and City Group needs to adapt and change its tactics (there can still be an attacking philosophy) otherwise there will be no success for its teams for a long time. If Barcelona can't make these tactics work, what chance do we have.

 

I'm watching too. I guess we do play the "Barcelona way" because right now they're playing like shite

[playmaker]

Interesting article

INTRODUCTION

Much controversy exists around playing styles and their effect on team success. Considerable statistical research has been carried out especially over the last 20 years to discover if the way a team plays will effect it's chance of winning. Is a direct style of play better than a slow possession type game ? It has been reasoned that the style of play certainly affects the probability of a goal being scored. The theory of success related to playing style has been discussed in great detail. Researchers such as C. Hughes (former technical Director of the English FA), R. Bate (formerly of Notts County FC), Dr M. Hughes (Cardiff Institute), E. Olsen (ex-manager of Norway) and Reep & Benjamin (statisticians) have all contributed to the debate. This article aims to compile the results and conclusions from such studies and offer a different insight into the game of soccer.

ANALYSIS OF THE DIRECT (LONG BALL) GAME

In the 1960 World Cup a technical study showed that successful attacks depended on a rapid change from attack to defence indicating the use of long fast passes. An analysis of Liverpool FC during the 1986-87 season demonstrated that a greater number of passes were attempted when losing. Reep and Benjamin came to the conclusion that goals and passes have a negative binomial distribution simply meaning that long sequences of passes are unnecessary. This conclusion was based on data collected from 3,213 matches which showed that 80% of goals resulted from 3 passes or less. Carling compared playing styles between top level Italian and English teams. Importantly, the study follows the same trend in that a far greater percentage of shots were produced (for both countries) from 5 or less passes, shown in Fig 1 below. This indicates that direct play is more effective in producing goal scoring chances. C. Hughes in his book dedicated to what he calls "The Winning Formula" outlined in great depth the argument for direct football. In all 109 elite matches (World Cup, European Championship and Liverpool FC) were analysed and the results showed that 87% of goals arose from attacks consisting of 5 or less passes. An example to support Hughes being the victorious Brazilian side of the 1970 World Cup against Italy (4-1). During this game, four goals were scored from five or less passes showing how even teams renowned for slow build-up play still rely on a short number of actions to score. Hughes summed up by stating that a goal is seven time more likely to come from a move of five consecutive passes or less. Olsen put the recent rise of Norway as a top footballing nation down to the use of direct playing methods. His analysis shows that playing a possession game through the middle of the pitch held no advantages for the team and that overall in 44 international matches, Norway created nearly twice as many chances as its opponents using a direct style game. Recently, the 1998 World Cup was analysed and showed that most goals were scored from movements containing less than four passes and lasting between 6 and 15 seconds. Fig 2 below graphically recreates the final goal scored by France through direct play (1 run and 2 passes). Bate mentioned that 48% of goals come from movements involving 0 or 1 passes. He mentions that to increase the number of times a team reaches the last attacking third of the pitch (where goals are scored): 1/ Teams should play the ball forward as often as possible 2/ Reduce to a minimum square or backward passes 3/ Increase the number of long forward passes 4/ Play the ball into space behind defenders as quickly as possible. Studies have shown that teams playing possession like football often lost the ball in their defending third of the pitch indicating the use of a long quick pass out of defence. Overall, it seems that teams playing a possession game lose the ball more often. Even though long passes may have an air of predictability about them, the habitual use of short passes seems to result in more lost possessions. Long passes can be exciting for spectators and place defenders in difficult situations, especially when the ball is played into the penalty are as this results in high unpredictability for the defence. By moving the ball forward quickly and by-passing defenders, a position of high attacking potential can be achieved. It has been suggested as well that in many situations it is inadvisable to run with the ball due to the player in possession not having enough skill to beat an opponent. Finally, evidence shows that direct football leads to more free-kicks being won than a possession type game. In seven England matches 130 set-plays were won from 3 or less passes and only 30 from 4 or more passes.