Round 27: Melbourne vs Adelaide

[n i k o]

5 minutes ago, HeartOfCity said:

If we all dont sign up for memberships for next season we should all get phone calls asking us why we havnt signed up yet, straight we should ask if JVS is still the coach and then say well i wont be signing up then! (If he still coach bu then that is)

All those questions as to why they brought out next season membership so early have been answered. 

[belaguttman]

20 minutes ago, HeartOfCity said:

If we all dont sign up for memberships for next season we should all get phone calls asking us why we havnt signed up yet, straight we should ask if JVS is still the coach and then say well i wont be signing up then! (If he still coach bu then that is)

Its what I'll be doing as well as telling them that they have to earn my season ticket commitment 

[HeartOfCity]

16 minutes ago, haz said:

Never read something so true!

 

My old man was telling me that the commentators on the telecast, said during the halftime break JVS was silent sitting down, while Amor was still drilling his players.

Can anyone confirm that who watched the coverage? ^

Surely cant have just been sitting down, more like sitting down with his head in his hands muttering to himself "I'm Fucked!! Well at least they have to pay my contract out, might take a year off and get a tan on a beach somewhere" then stands up to guys and says "where is a nice spot to get a tan this time of year" 

[n i k o]

23 minutes ago, haz said:

Never read something so true!

 

My old man was telling me that the commentators on the telecast, said during the halftime break JVS was silent sitting down, while Amor was still drilling his players.

Can anyone confirm that who watched the coverage? ^

On what telecast? 

[Shahanga]

Can't be fucked talking about the game itself, but i found the bench and subs "interesting".  Now someone had a go at JVS for having kids on the bench, well of the long list of things you can legitimately slag him for that isn't one.  We had kids on the bench because that's all we have and that's all we have mostly due to the salary cap.

Half time - well after Sorensen had done his level best to gift what was a tough game to Adelaide we clearly had to do something.  Bringing on Marino to play in midfield was a pretty weird choice though and it didn't do a lot either.  A formation change might have been better and probably sub Novillo, as even though he's a match winner, he seemed absent for the 2nd week in a row.  if you were going to sub a midfielder Caceres surely had to come on.

60 min.  Chapman for Clisby.  Were we trying to protect our 0-2 loss?  Jack Clisby was never going to win the game for us.  How about finding a way to get Marino further forward.

70min.  Wilkinson for Caceres.  So angry by now my eyes were hazing over.  Not sure what this was about, but at least it seemed like an attacking option.  Can't say I'd sub Wilko though.

[wombegongal]

We changed shape at half time we came back out in a flat 4-4-2 with Mooy and Afron ninja in the middle. It did dick all.

[haz]

20 minutes ago, n i k o said:

On what telecast? 

SBS halftime

[HeartOfCity]

4 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Can't be fucked talking about the game itself, but i found the bench and subs "interesting".  Now someone had a go at JVS for having kids on the bench, well of the long list of things you can legitimately slag him for that isn't one.  We had kids on the bench because that's all we have and that's all we have mostly due to the salary cap.

Half time - well after Sorensen had done his level best to gift what was a tough game to Adelaide we clearly had to do something.  Bringing on Marino to play in midfield was a pretty weird choice though and it didn't do a lot either.  A formation change might have been better and probably sub Novillo, as even though he's a match winner, he seemed absent for the 2nd week in a row.  if you were going to sub a midfielder Caceres surely had to come on.

60 min.  Chapman for Clisby.  Were we trying to protect our 0-2 loss?  Jack Clisby was never going to win the game for us.  How about finding a way to get Marino further forward.

70min.  Wilkinson for Caceres.  So angry by now my eyes were hazing over.  Not sure what this was about, but at least it seemed like an attacking option.  Can't say I'd sub Wilko though.

This and last weeks decision to play kisnorbo forward WTF leave the CB's alone! You have 8 guys infront of them to play around with.

[TheGaffer]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

Out of play is defined by the officials, not by the act of the ball crossing the line. In this case the referee had not indicated that the ball was out of play. Therefore it was still in play, therefore a penalty.

Reference: See Finkler et. al.

I think you are confusing the rules with the other football codes.

Once the whole ball has crossed the line its out. Whether they have seen it is a totally separate argument. I'm telling you what the Laws states...

Nothing in the Laws Of The Game state that its up to the discretion of the Referee when the ball is out...

 

[haz]

5 minutes ago, TheGaffer said:

I think you are confusing the rules with the other football codes.

Once the whole ball has crossed the line its out. Whether they have seen it is a totally separate argument. I'm telling you what the Laws states...

Nothing in the Laws Of The Game state that its up to the discretion of the Referee when the ball is out...

 

Ie. Hazard when he kicked the ball boy against Swansea. He was sent off

[belaguttman]

31 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

60 min.  Chapman for Clisby.  Were we trying to protect our 0-2 loss?  Jack Clisby was never going to win the game for us.  How about finding a way to get Marino further forward.

 

The problem arose when he weirdly decided to start with Chapman, a player returning from long-term injury lay off and was never going to last 90 minutes. Apart from the fact that Chapman is never a fullback, certainly not an attacking one required playing a midfield diamond, it would have made more sense to start Clisby there and then replace him with Chapman (not that this would make sense anyway). Just routine poor choices from JVS.

I agree with you Marino should have come on for Novillo, Joey Nepotism could have then helped Novillo pack his bags

[Murfy1]

Agree with lots of what's been said. A truly depressing night of football. Arguably this club's first ever final (a chance to finish with silverware by the end of the round), against a team we'd beaten twice in our two earlier encounters this season (and away as well), and it was a chance the club blew spectacularly. No silverlinings. And sadly if you supported this club for more than a few seasons (and definitely for this club's 6 seasons), then there was nothing surprising about last night's performance either.

 

The team had effectively all of its best players available as well, so there were no excuses on that front. Chapman as LB? Has Chapman ever played LB? A signature JVS mistake, doing screwy things with the LB position. Starting Clisby or even Garuccio (who at least offers something going forward) would have been preferable.

 

The midfield 4 of Malik, Melling, Fizgerald, Mooy didn't work. Melling misfit and misfired as the left-sided midfielder. And the whole midfield was too static. It would have been preferable playing 4-3-3, giving Mooy and the other 2 midfielders more room to work in and playing 3 up front to pin back the Adelaide defence. Playing a very defensive 4-4-2 at home (with a CB at LB), when we had no crucial absentees, against a team we'd beaten twice in 2 games was a big mistake. JVS pulled the wrong formation out of the hat this week (BTW FWIW I reckon if the players all played their best their maybe could have got a result, despite the tactics. But IMO the tactics really didn't help).

 

The substitutions were mindless as well. A striker for a left sided midfielder, while there's still half the game to play?? Why not replace the defensive midfielder Melling with the attacking midfielder Caceres? Clisby for Chapman was a completely sideways move as well, that didn't improve the team. Why not sub off a defender then and chuck on a striker (Marino) and play a back 3? The Tinkerman's innovations all misfired last night.

 

JW is spot on with the players' attitudes last night as well. You'd never know they were a chance to obtain the club's first ever trophy with a win last night. Dare I say it, but CFG with its oil money needs to make sure it signs up professional players who are motivated to play for the club, because the club's at risk of just signing up a bunch of mercenaries when it spends on players. I won't name names, but it looked like there were some self-interested mercenaries out there last night, that were just waiting for their paychecks, and weren't playing for the shirt.

 

 

This club has some learning and work to do to start next season off on the right foot. It can't write-off the first several week, as this club did with a handful of players unavailable for the first several weeks due to long term injuries (including players the club knowingly signed which had long term injuries). The next game at AAMI Park, whether an FFA Cup game or a season, has gotta be much better for supporters than what was served up last night.

[KSK_47]

I am still too angry to post anything that isnt written in venom so i wont go on about what has already been said.

But one thing i did notice when i took my seat was the difference in warm up routines. Our players all stood in a line while they took turns taking power shots. While this was going on i looked over to the other end of the pitch and saw Adelaide practicing stringing a series of 4 to 5 passes together while clearly discussing movement and positioning to cope with pressure.

At the time i figured that i am no coach so perhaps it was just that i didnt see the bigger picture but about 10 minutes into the game it became very obvious the difference between the mentality. They played as a unit. Used their brain and knew exactly what to do when pressured and also where to look when they needed to pass- often having two or three different options to chose from.

And we all know how well we played as a unit.

Edited April 9, 2016 by KSK_47

[NewConvert]

OK I am now becoming curious. First, the players for two weeks in a row are having attitude issues; secondly Mauk seems to rile the team in a way no other player does. Does this mean that something has happened behind closed doors? Have they been told that JVS is going nowhere and therefore no longer give a shit? Food for thought...

[Dylan]

JVS has been gone since the semi of the FFA cup. The only thing that would have saved him was silverware and he blew that out of the water over the past fortnight

[jeffplz]

 

1 hour ago, NewConvert said:

OK I am now becoming curious. First, the players for two weeks in a row are having attitude issues; secondly Mauk seems to rile the team in a way no other player does. Does this mean that something has happened behind closed doors? Have they been told that JVS is going nowhere and therefore no longer give a shit? Food for thought...

What are you trying to imply?

[n i k o]

Mauks comments post game touched on how the players at Adelaide all play for each other as a team. While he was saying this both Kossie and Peacock had wry smiles on their face and asked him if this was a dig at his time at City. He denied it completely but I don't beleive him because ite clear as a day we don't play for each other. 

It's incredible the great head space we were in only two weeks ago compared to now. After all the great things this club has achieved this season through records being broken and hitting top spot only weeks ago it's amazing that this is probably the lowest point since CFG took over. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by n i k o

[jeffplz]

The only thing keeping me positive is the idea that our boys have been trying to sabotage JVS' position by fucking up the premiership expectation.

[Jestr]

1 hour ago, jeffplz said:

The only thing keeping me positive is the idea that our boys have been trying to sabotage JVS' position by fucking up the premiership expectation.

Don't you think it's a totally wrong attitude to have as a professional football player??

premiership, championship or whatever you want call is what you play for. 

You never sabotage a chance to win it. 

If you do you are as much garbage as the coach. 

[Jovan]

What I can't get my head around is the personal pride. Regardless of tactics or formations or how the coach operates as a player ultimately it's up to you to play.

Last 2 weeks especially but many times when we have lost, the team as a whole look like they can't be fucked. Of course there are exceptions but generally they appear not willing to work when things get tough. 

A couple games they have (the second derby) for instance when we probably should have lost but they fought hard and scrapped a draw. So they have shown they are capable of scrapping and busting a gut. But these last 2 games have been totally unacceptable and several players need to follow the coaches out the door.

[belaguttman]

9 minutes ago, Jovan said:

What I can't get my head around is the personal pride. Regardless of tactics or formations or how the coach operates as a player ultimately it's up to you to play.

Last 2 weeks especially but many times when we have lost, the team as a whole look like they can't be fucked. Of course there are exceptions but generally they appear not willing to work when things get tough. 

A couple games they have (the second derby) for instance when we probably should have lost but they fought hard and scrapped a draw. So they have shown they are capable of scrapping and busting a gut. But these last 2 games have been totally unacceptable and several players need to follow the coaches out the door.

This is the group anxiety I've been going on about for seasons, group cohesion breaks down, players look for a leader to save them rather than fight for the result themselves and they freeze - can't think. It's a group phenomenon, it's not about the individuals but about what happens when they work (or don't work) together. It's triggered in specific situations that involve meeting specific goals or milestones etc. It has been amazingly resilient although more likely the franchise managements have done nothing to specifically address it so, surprise surprise, it hasn't gone away.

[jw1739]

It's quite possible, of course, that those players not being retained have already been notified of the same, or have guessed it because no-one from the club has spoken to them about staying on. Some may already know where they're going.

We look at things from the perspective of fans, many of us perhaps playing at a low level, some not at all, and I'll guess nearly all (perhaps all) paying for the privilege of doing so. I'd say our perspective on loyalty, playing for the shirt, etc. is quite different from professionals.

Isn't it the same for us in our lines of work? When you've got yourself your next job you probably will probably maintain one or two friendships with your former colleagues, but I doubt you'll care too much about your previous employer. Especially if they're a competitor.

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by jw1739

[belaguttman]

Well if any of them are being moved on they haven't done their future employment prospects any good in the last two weeks.

[playmaker]

1 minute ago, belaguttman said:

This is the group anxiety I've been going on about for seasons, group cohesion breaks down, players look for a leader to save them rather than fight for the result themselves and they freeze - can't think. It's a group phenomenon, it's not about the individuals but about what happens when they work (or don't work) together. It's triggered in specific situations that involve meeting specific goals or milestones etc. It has been amazingly resilient although more likely the franchise managements have done nothing to specifically address it so, surprise surprise, it hasn't gone away.

Is this the JVS character analysis thread?

If so very accurate analysis which basically shows why he is no good.

[belaguttman]

Just now, playmaker said:

Is this the JVS character analysis thread?

If so very accurate analysis which basically shows why he is no good.

When I'm not dead and buried in Vienna cemetery, I'm a group psychotherapist!

It's not solely JVS that is responsible for this, it's a group phenomena but he's responsible for fixing it or organising for someone to fix it and he hasn't or can't.

[n i k o]

JVS looked like a deer in head lights last night post match. Genuine fear in his eyes, no leadership, totally lost for answers. 

[playmaker]

3 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

When I'm not dead and buried in Vienna cemetery, I'm a group psychotherapist!

 

Well u are very good at what u do because you have described JVS to a tee

[playmaker]

Just got a tweet from MCFC congratulating Adelaide for top spot.

Rub it in why don't you. As if your loyal supporters are not hurting enough and then you need to send us that shit.

As for Adelaide; Fk the cnts.

[HEARTinator]

33 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

This is the group anxiety I've been going on about for seasons, group cohesion breaks down, players look for a leader to save them rather than fight for the result themselves and they freeze - can't think. It's a group phenomenon, it's not about the individuals but about what happens when they work (or don't work) together. It's triggered in specific situations that involve meeting specific goals or milestones etc. It has been amazingly resilient although more likely the franchise managements have done nothing to specifically address it so, surprise surprise, it hasn't gone away.

The idea behind training is to go through lots of scenarios and build game plans to handle them so that nothing is left to chance on game day. If you practice well enough and you develop trust in the coaching method and your team mates, then there should be a high probability that you'll all understand exactly what your role is and how to execute. Clearly, after many years of trying, JVS has failed to develop a resilient team culture and must be shown the door ASAP.

[belaguttman]

19 minutes ago, HEARTinator said:

The idea behind training is to go through lots of scenarios and build game plans to handle them so that nothing is left to chance on game day. If you practice well enough and you develop trust in the coaching method and your team mates, then there should be a high probability that you'll all understand exactly what your role is and how to execute. Clearly, after many years of trying, JVS has failed to develop a resilient team culture and must be shown the door ASAP.

True, but the problem with the stress response is that it stops players thinking, routines and movements that have been practised and learnt are quickly forgotten. People either are predominantly influenced then by their right brain and 'run on emotion' and don't think (Harry), or left brain and are emotionally numb

[n i k o]

I'll put a scenario to you @belaguttman. Two weeks in a row JVS has mentioned that winning is the only goal and two weeks in a row the team not only has failed to win but failed to perform. How much could this have affected the teams mentality over the last two matches? My opinion, being a coach myself, the focus is always on the process which incorporates tactics, effort, mental toughness etc. I would never mention, and have never ever mentioned to my players, winning as the priority because it takes the focus away from the performance required to get the desired result. 

The players very well know that winning is a priority in order to win the premiers plate, obviously. It is a huge error as a coach to put winning then as the priority... ("the thing we have to do is win"...JVS). This comment from JVS was prior to the Adelaide game. After the Perth game things like team effort, attitude etc, should have been the priority leading into the game last night. With that the team performance would be markedly better. To me his comment shows he simply doesn't have a winning mentality or a winning formula and his comments are indicative of a lack of experience coaching a team in position to win silver wear. It's more hope that the win will just come rather than focus on those things that are most important to get over the line. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by n i k o

[hakz7]

5 hours ago, n i k o said:

JVS looked like a deer in head lights last night post match. Genuine fear in his eyes, no leadership, totally lost for answers. 

So, like every other day?

[belaguttman]

10 hours ago, n i k o said:

I'll put a scenario to you @belaguttman. Two weeks in a row JVS has mentioned that winning is the only goal and two weeks in a row the team not only has failed to win but failed to perform. How much could this have affected the teams mentality over the last two matches? My opinion, being a coach myself, the focus is always on the process which incorporates tactics, effort, mental toughness etc. I would never mention, and have never ever mentioned to my players, winning as the priority because it takes the focus away from the performance required to get the desired result. 

The players very well know that winning is a priority in order to win the premiers plate, obviously. It is a huge error as a coach to put winning then as the priority... ("the thing we have to do is win"...JVS). This comment from JVS was prior to the Adelaide game. After the Perth game things like team effort, attitude etc, should have been the priority leading into the game last night. With that the team performance would be markedly better. To me his comment shows he simply doesn't have a winning mentality or a winning formula and his comments are indicative of a lack of experience coaching a team in position to win silver wear. It's more hope that the win will just come rather than focus on those things that are most important to get over the line. 

I think that you have to know your team and the individuals in the team and tailor your message and methods appropriately. If you had a bunch of really goal directed players then focussing on the goal as a motivational tool may be OK. If you have a team that is frightened of expectations then you really need to address that even more than tactics etc because when the stress kicks in people stop being able to think and all the cognitive tools you've given them are unavailable to them.