The JvS thread

[cadete]

 

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Heffernan and Colosimo being the first cabs off that rank?

 

Michael Beauchamp was another early one who was unable to work with JVS... and was lampooned as therefore a poor player by the JVS faithful only to put in a decent season at SFC and then a very solid season as WSW's inaugural captain.

 

I also thought that last season's end had seen the pattern of Williams playing poorer football under JVS... but this year the pattern has seemed to have reemerged. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by cadete

[NewConvert]

 

 

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Heffernan and Colosimo being the first cabs off that rank?

 

Michael Beauchamp was another early one who was unable to work with JVS... and was lampooned as therefore a poor player by the JVS faithful only to put in a decent season at SFC and then a very solid season as WSW's inaugural captain.

 

I also thought that last season's end had seen the pattern of Williams playing poorer football under JVS... but this year the pattern has seemed to have reemerged. 

 

And in WSW's second season the captain was relegated to the NYL from which he never returned.

[bt50]

 

 

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Heffernan and Colosimo being the first cabs off that rank?

 

Michael Beauchamp was another early one who was unable to work with JVS... and was lampooned as therefore a poor player by the JVS faithful only to put in a decent season at SFC and then a very solid season as WSW's inaugural captain.

 

I also thought that last season's end had seen the pattern of Williams playing poorer football under JVS... but this year the pattern has seemed to have reemerged. 

 

Harsh. He's played 90 minutes over two matches, one off the bench.

You may well end up being right, but effectively one appearance and two gilt edged chances is a pretty small sample size to call that.

[cadete]

 

 

 

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Heffernan and Colosimo being the first cabs off that rank?

 

Michael Beauchamp was another early one who was unable to work with JVS... and was lampooned as therefore a poor player by the JVS faithful only to put in a decent season at SFC and then a very solid season as WSW's inaugural captain.

 

I also thought that last season's end had seen the pattern of Williams playing poorer football under JVS... but this year the pattern has seemed to have reemerged. 

 

And in WSW's second season the captain was relegated to the NYL from which he never returned.

 

Hardly relevant considering he played played two strong seasons in between then and Heart - Who all the way back then he signed for as a seasoned defender.

 

 

 

 

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Heffernan and Colosimo being the first cabs off that rank?

 

Michael Beauchamp was another early one who was unable to work with JVS... and was lampooned as therefore a poor player by the JVS faithful only to put in a decent season at SFC and then a very solid season as WSW's inaugural captain.

 

I also thought that last season's end had seen the pattern of Williams playing poorer football under JVS... but this year the pattern has seemed to have reemerged. 

 

Harsh. He's played 90 minutes over two matches, one off the bench.

You may well end up being right, but effectively one appearance and two gilt edged chances is a pretty small sample size to call that.

 

My point was JVS is not giving him a chance... similar to Williams first season at MHFC.

[bt50]

You think there's more to it than just injury?

[heart_fan10]

 

the whole football department will be changed. Munn, Didulica, JVS are only temporary and will be gone with CFG bringing in their own people. From a very good source.

 

Interesting. I'm skeptical (nothing against you, I'm just naturally skeptical of ITK claims), but I'll take the bait. Did your source have a time-frame?

 

 

no time frame, just said that CFG are currently concentrating on training facilities, turf etc... first and once all those basic things are finalised then the staff changes will be made. Apparently not happy with Munn at all and they think he's the reason why the club is where it is.

[HEARTinator]

the whole football department will be changed. Munn, Didulica, JVS are only temporary and will be gone with CFG bringing in their own people. From a very good source.

 

Interesting. I'm skeptical (nothing against you, I'm just naturally skeptical of ITK claims), but I'll take the bait. Did your source have a time-frame?

 

no time frame, just said that CFG are currently concentrating on training facilities, turf etc... first and once all those basic things are finalised then the staff changes will be made. Apparently not happy with Munn at all and they think he's the reason why the club is where it is.

But but but, JVS has a contract till end of 2016-2017 season! Yep he can be pensioned off with a golden handshake but seems odd to have given someone a 3 yr contract then show them the door not long after???

However I'm inclined to #believe that the football department will be reviewed midway through this season to gauge results against CFG KPIs - around January time during the AFC Asian Cup. I expect JD and Munn and probably JVS will have to go into the review on bended knees and ask for forgiveness from our overlords.

[wombegongal]

Whilst we aren't inspiring from open play I'm going to go with the positive here and say JVS has to be our set piece guy cos fuck me we are on fire from them atm.

[heart_fan10]

You have to remember paying out JVS' 3 year contract is nothing to these guys. They could find the money to pay out the whole football department in their back pocket.

In regards to giving him a 3 year deal, I'd say that was the bargaining from JVS' end. Pellegrini was signed on a 3 year deal at Manchester city, he could have been gone after the first year if he hadn't won anything. The reality is these owners just want success, and they'd sack someone a day into their contract if they didn't feel they were the right person for the job. However, It seems as if there's still a bit of finalising to do in other areas to make sure everything is up to scratch.

[Tesla]

You have to remember paying out JVS' 3 year contract is nothing to these guys. They could find the money to pay out the whole football department in their back pocket.

Enough of this crap. There is still a budget, and it wouldn't be anywhere near what people think. CFG is nothing compared to big companies like Apple or Google, do you think they work with no budgets and unlimited money? Shit, Apple has more cash on it's hands, which it doesn't actually know what to do with, than the sheik will see in his lifetime, they still have budgets and control their costs.

I'm not saying they can't afford to fire him, but the daily posts which state things like "that money is nothing for our owners / the sheik / CFG" are really starting to annoy me. CFG is a business, whose aim is to make a profit, Melbourne City would still have a relatively small budget by world football standard, and I doubt it's significantly higher than the other big clubs in this league.

The only situation I can see the owners spending extravagantly is when it comes to tangible assets (eg facilities), and maybe if there is a really high profile player we can get they might tip in a bit more money.

Anyway, back to the topic. Surely there are clauses in a lot of managers' contracts limiting compensation to like 6-12 months wage, so I'm not convinced JVS will get a massive payout if he is sacked.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Tesla

[silva10]

Tesla I think you will find out that the Sheik's family can match Apple in wealth and probably surpass them.

 

However, you are correct in saying they are not just going to throw money away. In saying that the payout for JVS would be very small I imagine. Also, you can be sure that if they did find a player where they had to spend a bit more, then they would.

 

They bought Robhino for £32m on deadline day in 2008 as a gift after just taking us over.

 

Of course they have learned not to be so extravagant these days, but the money is there if they need to spend.

[Tesla]

Tesla I think you will find out that the Sheik's family can match Apple in wealth and probably surpass them.

Apple has a $650bn market capitalisation, and his family's wealth is irrelevant anyway. But I think we agree on everything else. Like I said, for the right player I'm sure they'd put in some more $, and for investments like facilities, but everything else would most likely be run to a budget and it wouldn't be a lot higher than other teams in this league because there is no reason for them to be putting in ridiculous amounts.

Anyway, not that relevant to this thread as, like you say, JVS' payout won't be that substantial. Just the daily posts where people think we operate to an unlimited budget have been starting to annoy me.

[silva10]

Well you can't run an unlimited budget in a salary capped league

 

All you can do is pay big money for the Marquee players that are outside of the salary cap

 

What I do hope is that in the future the salary cap can be raised so as to bring in or keep better players in the league

[Tesla]

Well you can't run an unlimited budget in a salary capped league

Sure you can, both the marquees can have an unlimited salary, and player salaries aren't the only thing to spend money on. Regardless, even without a salary cap, they'd be a budget. Probably a higher one, as I'm sure CFG would like to see us with the Asian Champions League, but it's not like we would have the budget of Man City.

[silva10]

Tesla I made the point about the Marquees

 

Of course every team has a budget, however in the EPL you don't have a salary cap so you can adjust the budget if required

 

In a salary cap league you have a budget that restricts your spending apart from the Marquees

 

As you say there is no cap on spending on infrastructure

 

What I don't know though, is there a cap on the NYL squad?

[markn]

Question -

 

Would we still be talking about sacking JVS if:

 

1) Williams scored within the first 20 minutes right in front of goal in the first half v Newcastle? - Instead he blasted it over the bar

 

2 ) Williams scored the cut back from Villa v Adelaide? - Instead he blasted it over the bar.

 

That would bring us to 7 points. 2W    1D    1L

 

I think i see now why we need a striker.

 

A coach can only lead the team to goal - the player must finish the move.  In this case Williams failed.

[stewmac]

Question -

 

Would we still be talking about sacking JVS if:

 

1) Williams scored within the first 20 minutes right in front of goal in the first half v Newcastle? - Instead he blasted it over the bar

 

2 ) Williams scored the cut back from Villa v Adelaide? - Instead he blasted it over the bar.

 

That would bring us to 7 points. 2W    1D    1L

 

I think i see now why we need a striker.

 

A coach can only lead the team to goal - the player must finish the move.  In this case Williams failed.

Williams isnt really a striker ,we dont have a striker until January when kennedy arrives ,if he does arrive & if he is fit , so its down to JVS for putting club in this position !

[markn]

 

 

Anyway, back to the topic. Surely there are clauses in a lot of managers' contracts limiting compensation to like 6-12 months wage, so I'm not convinced JVS will get a massive payout if he is sacked.

 

 

Compensation works like this:

 

If Coach (eg JVS) is signed for 3 years on $1 million per year,

 

if sacked in the second or third year - the club will pay the difference between his current earning (since being sacked) and his contract had he still been employed with the club as coach.

 

eg. if JVS is sacked and takes up a coaching job elsewhere in season 2 - and his new role earns him $750,000 per year, then City will pay the difference to equate to $1 million.

 

City does not pay him $1 million per year and then JVS takes up other paid employment elsewhere. 

 

JVS would have to be compensated for lost earnings.

 

However City are not stupid. Performance based contracts are the norm. If you perform and meet certain clauses - your term of the contract is honoured.

 

Remember Moyes signed on as United coach for 5 years, was sacked after 1, but never received the full yearly wage from the remaining 4 years. 

[KSK_47]

Question -

 

Would we still be talking about sacking JVS if:

 

1) Williams scored within the first 20 minutes right in front of goal in the first half v Newcastle? - Instead he blasted it over the bar

 

2 ) Williams scored the cut back from Villa v Adelaide? - Instead he blasted it over the bar.

 

That would bring us to 7 points. 2W    1D    1L

 

I think i see now why we need a striker.

 

A coach can only lead the team to goal - the player must finish the move.  In this case Williams failed.

 

Yes. Well I would be anyway. I have been talking about it since well before he left us high and dry for money the first time around.

 

The fact is, we do and always have played boring football under JVS, he has a long track record of failure and is showing no signs of improving this. He is an imported manager and is taking the job of a local, so therefore no concessions should be made.

 

Either get the results or leave.

[CityHeart]

exactly - what gets me is the length of failure we have to go through! JVS is a proven failure, regardless of squad it seems.

 

How long have we been in the comp? How successful have we been? How many coaches have we had? We have no 'striker' on the list - who is responsible for this? Ditto left back etc

 

There are clearly ingrained issues at the club, and need to be weeded before we can move forward. 

[markn]

exactly - what gets me is the length of failure we have to go through! JVS is a proven failure, regardless of squad it seems.

 

How long have we been in the comp? How successful have we been? How many coaches have we had? We have no 'striker' on the list - who is responsible for this? Ditto left back etc

 

There are clearly ingrained issues at the club, and need to be weeded before we can move forward. 

 

Lets not forget the role Diduluca plays here!

 

How this guys has kept his job is beyond belief.

[Tonyboozeadams]

Tesla I think you will find out that the Sheik's family can match Apple in wealth and probably surpass them.

However, you are correct in saying they are not just going to throw money away. In saying that the payout for JVS would be very small I imagine. Also, you can be sure that if they did find a player where they had to spend a bit more, then they would.

They bought Robhino for £32m on deadline day in 2008 as a gift after just taking us over.

Of course they have learned not to be so extravagant these days, but the money is there if they need to spend.

Yep, fucking loaded. There is family wealth, his wealth and the companies wealth.

He paid out the remainder of man city's debt from his personal stock.

/

[Tesla]

Anyway, back to the topic. Surely there are clauses in a lot of managers' contracts limiting compensation to like 6-12 months wage, so I'm not convinced JVS will get a massive payout if he is sacked.

 

Compensation works like this:

 

If Coach (eg JVS) is signed for 3 years on $1 million per year,

 

if sacked in the second or third year - the club will pay the difference between his current earning (since being sacked) and his contract had he still been employed with the club as coach.

 

eg. if JVS is sacked and takes up a coaching job elsewhere in season 2 - and his new role earns him $750,000 per year, then City will pay the difference to equate to $1 million.

 

City does not pay him $1 million per year and then JVS takes up other paid employment elsewhere. 

 

JVS would have to be compensated for lost earnings.

 

However City are not stupid. Performance based contracts are the norm. If you perform and meet certain clauses - your term of the contract is honoured.

 

Remember Moyes signed on as United coach for 5 years, was sacked after 1, but never received the full yearly wage from the remaining 4 years.

I've heard what you're saying happen a couple of times before with some big European managers, forgot who exactly, but it's still possible there is a clause in the contract limiting termination fees further.

[markn]

I've heard what you're saying happen a couple of times before with some big European managers, forgot who exactly, but it's still possible there is a clause in the contract limiting termination fees further.

 

 

I agree. You wouldn't sign a coach for 3 years then realise after 1 he is not good - without having a contingency clause.

 

No different to early termination within the first 3 months of ones employment here in Australia.

[Kiro Kompiro]

Question -

 

Would we still be talking about sacking JVS if:

 

1) Williams scored within the first 20 minutes right in front of goal in the first half v Newcastle? - Instead he blasted it over the bar

 

2 ) Williams scored the cut back from Villa v Adelaide? - Instead he blasted it over the bar.

 

That would bring us to 7 points. 2W    1D    1L

 

I think i see now why we need a striker.

 

A coach can only lead the team to goal - the player must finish the move.  In this case Williams failed.

 

Y'know, you make a strong argument there.

 

One could make an even stronger argument for Aloisi, as he had Duga (who already has one open goal mis to his name this season), and Missfud.

 

As always the truth is in the middle: the coach can set them up to play, the players have to kick the ball.

 

We have more than our fair share of coach killers.

[jw1739]

Unfortunately we have/had both players who are coach killers and coaches who are player killers.

[rass]

I haven't been too critical of jvs yet, but the squad named tonight really concerns me.

 

So i have an idea...

 

There have been many good suggestions on this forum around squad and formation. So why not pay him out and hire one of us for a week to coach, for say ~$15K.

If we win, the new coach stays on at the same rate. If not, just pluck another dude from the forum and continue on until we win.

With 20 odd rounds to go, that would only cost $300k or so - way unders to what jvs is getting... and let's face it, we wouldn't do any worse.

 

Really enjoying this Golden Ale at the moment....

[Thrillhouse]

I haven't been too critical of jvs yet, but the squad named tonight really concerns me.

 

So i have an idea...

 

There have been many good suggestions on this forum around squad and formation. So why not pay him out and hire one of us for a week to coach, for say ~$15K.

If we win, the new coach stays on at the same rate. If not, just pluck another dude from the forum and continue on until we win.

With 20 odd rounds to go, that would only cost $300k or so - way unders to what jvs is getting... and let's face it, we wouldn't do any worse.

 

Really enjoying this Golden Ale at the moment....

i like it

whoever gets to manage the derby would be a club legend for dropping muscunt

[n i k o]

I'll coach the team, I'll give the people what they want.

[Thrillhouse]

very lucky we ended up winning that or it wouldn't of looked good for him

[NewConvert]

I thought that the subs were well timed and the fact that they are young gives me hope for a better future. Did OK tonight. And any loss does not look good for any coach.

[stewmac]

Just been given a 2 year extension based on today's win !!!! Next win probably mid February 2015 :-(

[silva10]

I think it's obvious that the team he selected concerned everyone.

 

I am just wondering if it was good tactics or luck that won us the game

 

The two early goals gave us the breathing space we needed and the subs he made did definitely make a difference.

 

However, the selection of Retre puzzles me as he didn't show anything to prove he was better than Melling or Garuccio

 

The positioning of Paartalu also worries me, and I think JVS needs to talk to him about how he wants him to play

 

I did think switching Kisnorbo and Wielhart worked and both played better than I have seen from them this season. They looked more comfortable.

 

So I think I would give JVS 7 out of 10 today.

 

Hopefully he will look upon the impact of Melling and Marino and see he can have confidence in the young players.

[Thrillhouse]

I think it's obvious that the team he selected concerned everyone.

 

I am just wondering if it was good tactics or luck that won us the game

 

The two early goals gave us the breathing space we needed and the subs he made did definitely make a difference.

 

However, the selection of Retre puzzles me as he didn't show anything to prove he was better than Melling or Garuccio

 

The positioning of Paartalu also worries me, and I think JVS needs to talk to him about how he wants him to play

 

I did think switching Kisnorbo and Wielhart worked and both played better than I have seen from them this season. They looked more comfortable.

 

So I think I would give JVS 7 out of 10 today.

 

Hopefully he will look upon the impact of Melling and Marino and see he can have confidence in the young players.

we do tend to play well against brisbane

[mus-28]

Extend contract. Keys to the city, etc

[NewConvert]

I think it's obvious that the team he selected concerned everyone.

 

I am just wondering if it was good tactics or luck that won us the game

 

The two early goals gave us the breathing space we needed and the subs he made did definitely make a difference.

 

However, the selection of Retre puzzles me as he didn't show anything to prove he was better than Melling or Garuccio

 

The positioning of Paartalu also worries me, and I think JVS needs to talk to him about how he wants him to play

 

I did think switching Kisnorbo and Wielhart worked and both played better than I have seen from them this season. They looked more comfortable.

 

So I think I would give JVS 7 out of 10 today.

 

Hopefully he will look upon the impact of Melling and Marino and see he can have confidence in the young players.

 

Retre, being a young player was handed an opportunity. He did not take it. Melling and Marino, did. We shall see over the coming weeks whether Retre is able to work his way back on to the bench or not. Similarly with Garuccio who was dropped altogether. The way that these players develop for the rest of the season will answer to me whether Melb City is good enough to develop young, raw talent - something which up till now, has not been the case.

Luck? well you make your own luck - Williams was in the right spot, well positioned and with enough time and space to score. Last week, against Adelaide, he was moving in the wrong direction when the ball accidentally landed at his feet and he shanked the kick (got his whole foot under the ball). Mate D. received a fantastic pass from Paartalau and he had acres of space and time - this was plain old tactics, and the lcuk came from Brisbane having a crap goal keeper. The third goal was much the same. James Brown is now on the way to redeeming himself from the stupid penalty he gave away against Victory.

Next week Melb City play the Mariners, a team that is also struggling but whose style of play is to park the bus. For some reason I always tend to think that Heart conceded through penalties against them. Then there is Sydney - another big test for JVS.

[Kiro Kompiro]

I think luck is an accurate way to describe how we play.  We always have and always will create chances.  Depending on which way the tea leaves drop, Willo and Dugandzic either miss the target from 6 yards, or as they did last night beat the keeper at the near post or score with nothing more than a balls width space between two defenders and the keeper.

 

If these two and Missfud took their chances, JA might still be the coach.

 

Season is still young.  They may yet kill JVS's career.

[KSK_47]

 

I am just wondering if it was good tactics or luck that won us the game

 

 

I hear what you are saying. Our first two goals certainly came from their poor defense which changed the game a lot and personally I think Brisbane controlled the majority of the game far better than us. Had they defended better early and taken their chances later on it may have been a very different game. But much like when we dont take our chances or lament about what could have been, theres no point because thats not what happened. They were sloppy, we pounced. They didnt convert their chances, we did. Thats why we got all 3 points.

 

In terms of how we won, I am not convinced it was as great of a performance as a lot of other people seem to. For me it was just more a case of our weaknesses were not exploited (and the weaknesses were still very much there) so it flattered us a little. Had the pressure been on us more at the start I dont think we would have been any where near as composed. Having said that, three points is three points and I will happily take it and hopefully the win will get the team a bit more confidence going forward and we can keep up the momentum. 

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

 

I am just wondering if it was good tactics or luck that won us the game

 

 

I hear what you are saying. Our first two goals certainly came from their poor defense which changed the game a lot and personally I think Brisbane controlled the majority of the game far better than us. Had they defended better early and taken their chances later on it may have been a very different game. But much like when we dont take our chances or lament about what could have been, theres no point because thats not what happened. They were sloppy, we pounced. They didnt convert their chances, we did. Thats why we got all 3 points.

 

In terms of how we won, I am not convinced it was as great of a performance as a lot of other people seem to. For me it was just more a case of our weaknesses were not exploited (and the weaknesses were still very much there) so it flattered us a little. Had the pressure been on us more at the start I dont think we would have been any where near as composed. Having said that, three points is three points and I will happily take it and hopefully the win will get the team a bit more confidence going forward and we can keep up the momentum. 

 

 

 

Who thinks this was a good performance?

[belaguttman]

The subs were good subs and helped to win us the game but of you look at the bench we had no alternatives, no defenders apart from Archibald. had the game gone differently we may not have had the flexibility on the bench to have got the same outcome