A-league expansion

[Geo400]

5 minutes ago, ecguymer said:

....I wonder how many of the other old NSL clubs in Melbourne are currently throwing together there own submissions to counter South Melbourne's.....that or formal objections full of butthurt.....

None, they don't have suitable stadiums to begin with, would be impossible to sell to investors. I always though Heidelberg had potential with its stadium but it literally hasn't been touched for 25 years, knights own their stadium but the ground is in the middle of nowhere with no transport options in sight..facilities are crap as well. The rest basically play in local parks lol. They aren't really in any position to bid.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Geo400

[Jovan]

All these bids or jockyeying by the stronger NPL clubs will more than likely end up with a genuine 2nd division or B League. 

The FFA should seriously look at the feasibility of running a B League and after a 5 year period look at relegation promotion. 

But obviously that won't happen. 

[jw1739]

2 minutes ago, Jovan said:

All these bids or jockyeying by the stronger NPL clubs will more than likely end up with a genuine 2nd division or B League. 

The FFA should seriously look at the feasibility of running a B League and after a 5 year period look at relegation promotion. 

But obviously that won't happen. 

In a country with the physical size and population that we have, and with football occupying the position it does in the sporting pecking order, we already have an appropriate B League - it's the National Premier Leagues. In this case I think FFA has got it right in organising the second tier on a regional basis. I just don't believe a nationwide B-League could be financially sustainable. And IMO FFA has rightly dismissed the idea of promotion/relegation on a results basis, at least for the foreseeable future - most of the current A-League clubs would disintegrate if they were relegated out.

[Geo400]

4 hours ago, Jovan said:

All these bids or jockyeying by the stronger NPL clubs will more than likely end up with a genuine 2nd division or B League. 

The FFA should seriously look at the feasibility of running a B League and after a 5 year period look at relegation promotion. 

But obviously that won't happen. 

To be honest i think the bulk of these bids are perfect candidates for a less risk based 2nd division, throw them all in, the ones that thrive on and off the field can be looked at as serious expanion options..sorta like what they do in america.. as opposed to now where they are pretty much gonna pick 2 teams at random and hope for the best..which could be a complete disaster like the first time.

The ffa have been asleep at the wheel and therefore i cant see us having a nationwide 2nd tier for potentially decades.

 

[RedAndWhitePride]

Three Victorian bids now happening... South Melbourne, Geelong and now South-East Melbourne (a joint bid backed by Dandenong Thunder, Dandenong City, Springvale White Eagles etc). 

 

All bids have a lot of merit imo, and hopefully the FFA are looking to expand beyond two extra teams soon because obviously the likes of Tasmania, Wollongong, Brisbane Strikers etc are making good inroads too with their bids. 

 

Interesting times ahead, and surely we'll have at least one more derby soon enough, whomever it may be.

Edited November 17, 2016 by RedAndWhitePride

[Young Polak]

20 minutes ago, RedAndWhitePride said:

South-East Melbourne (a joint bid backed by Dandenong Thunder, Dandenong City, Springvale White Eagles etc). 

 

 

Link????

[RedAndWhitePride]

53 minutes ago, Young Polak said:

Link????

Sorry mate, it's on the Herald Sun site but you need you a subscription to view it: 

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/index.html?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a&mode=premium&dest=http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/football/a-league/caseydandenong-soccer-clubs-ready-to-unite-behind-local-push-for-an-aleague-license/news-story/91400c4396bba2fe4b13349a401c34a8&memtype=anonymous

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by RedAndWhitePride

[Dylan]

good thing about these bids comming out is that they could form the basis of a B league

[strider]

1 hour ago, Dylan said:

good thing about these bids comming out is that they could form the basis of a B league

ethnic league

[Jovan]

30 minutes ago, strider said:

ethnic league

E League.👍👍👍👍or a MW League  (mens wog).

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jovan

[fensaddler]

14-16 team league would work logistically, since that's 26-30 matches per season.  Any more and realistically we're going to need one of a. a longer season b. another league or c. regular midweek fixtures.

[Geo400]

Casey/Dandenong would be roughly 4-5 years away from being ready, not having a stadium out that way pretty much rules it out of the current phase of expansion. Although 4-5 is definately possibly, assuming this is legitimate of course.

lol @ bleiberg calling out the roar for being ethnic.

[Jovan]

Dandenong city and Sprinvale white eagles merging to form some sort of super club of the south east.

Zero chance. 

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, fensaddler said:

14-16 team league would work logistically, since that's 26-30 matches per season.  Any more and realistically we're going to need one of a. a longer season b. another league or c. regular midweek fixtures.

Absolutely. These points - and others - never seem to get any consideration at all.

At the moment we're like more passengers wanting to get on to the bus but the driver doesn't know where he's going or how to get there.

[Tony999]

So an Albanian backed team and a Serbian backed team for a joint bid? Yeah right. These bids are beginning to be a joke now..

[Geo400]

I think they may just be throwing out articles now to see which ones gain the most traction, it started with south melb, then Geelong the following day, and then Dandenong, next week I'm sure it will be some other part of town, perhaps the northern suburbs that will get a throwaway article.

dandy city, white eagles, dandy thunder are clubs that would simply never work together.

how many of these bids are actually legitimate?

[cadete]

39 minutes ago, Geo400 said:

I think they may just be throwing out articles now to see which ones gain the most traction, it started with south melb, then Geelong the following day, and then Dandenong, next week I'm sure it will be some other part of town, perhaps the northern suburbs that will get a throwaway article.

dandy city, white eagles, dandy thunder are clubs that would simply never work together.

how many of these bids are actually legitimate?

Well there is an "Elected Official" in the North/West who is most likely desperate to create a New Terrace...

[ecguymer]

chances are any biased Melbourne bid (other than South Melbourne) would be looking at AAMI for actual matches rather that using/building their own

[cadete]

22 minutes ago, ecguymer said:

chances are any biased Melbourne bid (other than South Melbourne) would be looking at AAMI for actual matches rather that using/building their own

Surely the Metro Melbourne is too crowded already to be considered, its not like MV and us are bringing in the greatest numbers...

The wise move IMO as Geelong AFL Supporter and Urban Planner would have to be Geelong in terms of New Team that would have both its own Separate Feeling of Place and with the current and planned growth to come in that Region shortly. 

[ecguymer]

24 minutes ago, cadete said:

Surely the Metro Melbourne is too crowded already to be considered, its not like MV and us are bringing in the greatest numbers...

The wise move IMO as Geelong AFL Supporter and Urban Planner would have to be Geelong in terms of New Team that would have both its own Separate Feeling of Place and with the current and planned growth to come in that Region shortly. 

I can't see another Melbourne team actually happening until/if a promotion/relegation system is introduced; but if one was to happen, they'd most likely be wanting to use AAMI

[Jovan]

Time for Preston to put its hand up. Maybe a merger with Heidelberg and Northcote City. 

What could go wrong.

[cadete]

3 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Time for Preston to put its hand up. Maybe a merger with Heidelberg and Northcote City. 

What could go wrong.

Northcote City are just South Melbourne fans who cant be bothered leaving Northcote (Why would you when there is Northcote Plaza)... so they may as well just all throw their hat in with the South Melbourne bid.

Edited November 18, 2016 by cadete

[fensaddler]

1 hour ago, cadete said:

Surely the Metro Melbourne is too crowded already to be considered, its not like MV and us are bringing in the greatest numbers...

The wise move IMO as Geelong AFL Supporter and Urban Planner would have to be Geelong in terms of New Team that would have both its own Separate Feeling of Place and with the current and planned growth to come in that Region shortly. 

Absolutely.  For those reasons alone Geelong looks a strong bid, with a ready made stadium.  Will also be dead easy for me to watch City away, and will give me a ready made second team to watch when City are interstate... 

[Geo400]

Geelong strikes me as a pro victory area for anyone who follows it down there, the stadium is also enormous, didn't they close off parts of it even when victory played there? Small population as well what is it a little over 200,000 in afl heartland? its good for 1-2 a league games a season and the odd club friendly with a touring team but an actual pro team is a different ball game. I hope they do put a bid together will be interesting to see if they can secure the backing..you would assume the afl club would be calling the shots though as they are basically royalty there.

the south east idea is better, but nobody is building a stadium out that way so they would be playing at AAMI park and that will cause more harm than good.

[NewConvert]

On the issue of stadiums, it seems to me that since the days of Kennet, the idea of suburban Melbourne stadiums for professional sports has just about disappeared. The pre-AFL stadiums are now either history, or been used by the second tier clubs. It appears to me that the state government (of both persuasions) would rather sink money into putting the sports precinct around Melbourne CBD with the only "outliers" being the Flemington and Caulfield racecourses - and lets face it they are not that far from the CBD. 

So unless a new bid, comes in with a lot of money to upgrade/build a new stadium in the suburbs AND they get state government approval AND local council approval, I cannot see any new Melbourne bid playing anywhere else but AAMI.

Geelong, of course, would need to be located at Kardinia park. 

[Tesla]

I agree with all the above posters, Geelong SC to the A-League.

I have already submitted a proposal to the FFA, underpinned by Ethnic Soccer Food Economics, and have travelled the state speaking to Macedonian pensioners drinking coffee in suburban shopping centres as potential investors.

I even got the guy who knocked down that historic hotel in Carlton on board to build a new stadium as a goodwill gesture to the state government.

So far it's looking good.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Tesla

[ecguymer]

So, apparently people from the south-east don't follow the A-league yet.......also, something something biting the hand that feeds you

http://www.mfootball.com.au/papastergiadis-npl-basically-a-graveyard-for-football/

[Bannon]

lakeside aint exactly south-east either and i wonder where he gets his stats from saying that the south east has not been tapped yet. and going to dandenong for potential a league games seem really really off putting.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Bannon

[Geo400]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

lakeside aint exactly south-east either and i wonder where he gets his stats from saying that the south east has not been tapped yet. and going to dandenong for potential a league games seem really really off putting.

You gotta work the geographic angle these days, nobody is going to Dandenong for a game lol

[Thrillhouse]

“We get 7,000 people to an NPL game"
Don't these cunts struggle to get 2k?

[Geo400]

4 hours ago, Thrillhouse said:

“We get 7,000 people to an NPL game"
Don't these cunts struggle to get 2k?

It was the grand final, the headline was made to be controversial.

[Baka1]

13 hours ago, Thrillhouse said:

“We get 7,000 people to an NPL game"
Don't these cunts struggle to get 2k?

Yeah lol

[jw1739]

13 hours ago, Geo400 said:

It was the grand final, the headline was made to be controversial.

And misleading. On that basis City could claim to get 25,000 to an A-League match.

[Geo400]

4 hours ago, jw1739 said:

And misleading. On that basis City could claim to get 25,000 to an A-League match.

Yep.

But i will say previous npl grand finals were attracting about 1000-1500..at least the ones i attended at aami park did..so this was a pretty big jump.

[ecguymer]

http://www.fourfourtwo.com.au/news/prorel-drops-off-a-league-agenda-441999

Quick summary: at this point, all a second tier league with P/R would do is sent teams to the wall financially; so we aren't looking at doing that any time soon (not till football as a whole is in a stronger position). We want to expand were we'll get new fans and impress sponsors/broadcasters

Quote

“If you try and boil it down simply it’s about somewhere that can be sustainable in its own location and in its own financial position but importantly also we’ve got to look for franchises that will grow the overall pie.

"That means being attractive to broadcasters and our national sponsors and making sure that that we are not slicing up the same pie more ways.”

 

[Geo400]

We will never have a 2nd tier nor promotion/relegation in this country.

the A league will expand to a total of 14 teams and that will mark the permanent shutting up shop of the game, doesn't matter if you are npl, an NSL stalwart or a geographic location, if you miss the boat in the next 2 expansion phases you are done for good.

the ffa cup will continue on and will bascailly be scraps off the floor for the rest.

anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, it's barely possible to have a mature discussion about south Melbourne (the least ethnic of the ethnic clubs) let alone the prospects of tiered football with teams going up and down, if that's your thing get on board your local state leagues or follow European football, because it's never happening at the highest levels in this country.

[Tesla]

Honestly I dont know why people write off the idea of a national second division. It really wouldn't take much to do it. Yes the revenue won't be as high but neither would the costs. Could see it happening like so:

1. New TV deal finally makes A-League clubs financially stable

2. Salary cap is removed

3. Use the negotiating power of getting rid of the salary cap to convince the PFA to agree to reducing the minimum salary to $40k

4. Allow transfer fees as an equalising measure to help smaller clubs now that the salary cap is gone.

5. Create a 2nd division, the prospect of being able to get promoted to the big money A-League will draw investment into the second division, salaries will be fairly low and probably only cost $1m on average per club, transfer fees will help bring some money down from A-League, smaller attendances just mean smaller stadiums need to be rented which are cheaper, still probably get decent crowds and sponsors since its still a professional national league, would still attract some TV interest.

I can see there being enough money around to support a second division given the costs would be significantly lower.

[NewConvert]

5 hours ago, Tesla said:

Honestly I dont know why people write off the idea of a national second division. It really wouldn't take much to do it. Yes the revenue won't be as high but neither would the costs. Could see it happening like so:

1. New TV deal finally makes A-League clubs financially stable

The AFL has had the biggest financial broadcast deals for well over 20 years yet 10 clubs recorded a loss. I can't see the new broadcast deal naking the A-League clubs financially stable, at least not within the lifespan of the TV deal.

2. Salary cap is removed

This will make the financially powerful clubs perpetual winners (with the odd interloper). Given the nature of sports in Oz, I can see a diminishing market share if the salary cap is removed.

3. Use the negotiating power of getting rid of the salary cap to convince the PFA to agree to reducing the minimum salary to $40k

Maybe. The AFLPA chose to negotiate a better deal for rookies, injury cover and retirement options. Personally, I can't see this happening because $40k is not a living wage so younger players won't be able to spend so much time training. Look across to the Women's league and you can see the deleterious effects of low salary. And certainly I would not negotiate a reduction.

4. Allow transfer fees as an equalising measure to help smaller clubs now that the salary cap is gone.

Transfer fees or bartering should definitely be on the list of things to do even with the salary cap remaining.

5. Create a 2nd division, the prospect of being able to get promoted to the big money A-League will draw investment into the second division, salaries will be fairly low and probably only cost $1m on average per club, transfer fees will help bring some money down from A-League, smaller attendances just mean smaller stadiums need to be rented which are cheaper, still probably get decent crowds and sponsors since its still a professional national league, would still attract some TV interest.

A national second division will still cost money in travel and insurance. I note that the VFL has difficulties attracting investment and that is why there are only a couple of stand alone clubs. The Bendigo Bombers returned their license once Essendon pulled out as they could not fund it. Secondly, and this is another important factor, with the smaller clubs is the financial/corporate know how. I know a small local club for whom my brother played when they were in the fifth division. By coincidence a number of people joined who worked in corporate management - the club is now on the third tier and looking at getting promoted. Our local club two season ago turfed out the old management (in a respectful way) and the new mob is more corporate savvy.

I can see there being enough money around to support a second division given the costs would be significantly lower.

 

[Jovan]

5 hours ago, Tesla said:

Honestly I dont know why people write off the idea of a national second division. It really wouldn't take much to do it. Yes the revenue won't be as high but neither would the costs. Could see it happening like so:

1. New TV deal finally makes A-League clubs financially stable

2. Salary cap is removed

3. Use the negotiating power of getting rid of the salary cap to convince the PFA to agree to reducing the minimum salary to $40k

4. Allow transfer fees as an equalising measure to help smaller clubs now that the salary cap is gone.

5. Create a 2nd division, the prospect of being able to get promoted to the big money A-League will draw investment into the second division, salaries will be fairly low and probably only cost $1m on average per club, transfer fees will help bring some money down from A-League, smaller attendances just mean smaller stadiums need to be rented which are cheaper, still probably get decent crowds and sponsors since its still a professional national league, would still attract some TV interest.

I can see there being enough money around to support a second division given the costs would be significantly lower.

Problem is they (FFA ) wont change or remove salary cap. This basic element in their mind is preventing the collapse of the League which in fact is actually the opposite. Secondly the transfer fee ban also is a massive roadblock. 

You remove these 2 core features you then open the opportunity for smaller clubs to an additional income stream and the smarter/better ones can make some decent money.

Travel is also a big cost. But if the tv rights deal included the B League over time the B League could become almost self sufficient. 

I have  zero confidence in the FFA changing their fundamental stance. So the best we can hope for is an expanded A League to maybe 14 teams and a proper FFA Cup  (none of this seeded stuff and guaranteed semi final spots) and the winner gaining an Asian Champions spot.

[jw1739]

10 hours ago, Tesla said:

Honestly I dont know why people write off the idea of a national second division. It really wouldn't take much to do it. Yes the revenue won't be as high but neither would the costs. Could see it happening like so:

1. New TV deal finally makes A-League clubs financially stable

2. Salary cap is removed

3. Use the negotiating power of getting rid of the salary cap to convince the PFA to agree to reducing the minimum salary to $40k

4. Allow transfer fees as an equalising measure to help smaller clubs now that the salary cap is gone.

5. Create a 2nd division, the prospect of being able to get promoted to the big money A-League will draw investment into the second division, salaries will be fairly low and probably only cost $1m on average per club, transfer fees will help bring some money down from A-League, smaller attendances just mean smaller stadiums need to be rented which are cheaper, still probably get decent crowds and sponsors since its still a professional national league, would still attract some TV interest.

I can see there being enough money around to support a second division given the costs would be significantly lower.

The first thing that causes me to look very, very cautiously and sceptically at a National Second Division is that the AFL doesn't have one. That sets my warning bells ringing every time people start to discuss the Second Division, promotion and relegation, expansion into rural and regional areas, etc. etc.