Round 14: CCM vs City 4th Jan KO: 5:00pm

[Imperial Pints]

I would seriously consider stripping Kisnorbo of the captaincy. The guy shouldn't be undroppable.

Koren, Duff or Paartalu to wear the armband.

Thoughts?

[Dylan]

2-0 down and down to 10 men.... take our best attacking player off and park the bus. Vintage Melbourne Heart.

 

and with the colours too 

[Pete Heartspur]

 

 

We lost to a team who hadn't won a game in 83 days....83 DAYS

It was important to lose so that our losing  record wasn't threatened

 

 

wouldn't want to give up that record

 

Aren't the Wanderers giving it a good crack?

 

Edit: Sorry, forgot we're playing them next round in Sydney.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Pete Heartspur

[interstatefan]

We lost to a team who hadn't won a game in 83 days....83 DAYS

It was important to lose so that our losing record wasn't threatened

wouldn't want to give up that record

Aren't the Wanderers giving it a good crack?

Edit: Sorry, forgot we're playing them next round in Sydney.

Isn't it at home?

[Murfy1]

Disappointing match, no question about it.

 

The team was flat in the 1st half, and that pretty much cost us the game. Central Coast had 2 shots on goal in the 1st half, and got 2 goals. 

 

Why was the team so flat in the 1st half? There's no really clear single-factor answer IMO. but the absence of Melling and Chapman was maybe the main explanation. Both provide good intensity and sharpness, and the team looked lacking without those 2 young players.

 

Also Archibald had a scrappy debut in the centre of defence. He looked too raw and a bit nervy.

 

But the more experienced defenders really didn't help matters. Kisnorbo IMO is significantly below his form last season, and given that he's the captain, and given his CV, his performances lately have been rather disappointing. Wielaert looked flakey defensively, and below what's expected of his CV, and the fact that he takes up a Visa spot. And Velaphi let the team down by getting sent off around the 60th minute.

 

Our midfielders defending in the 1st half was far from ideal, and again this perhaps somewhat explained by the absence of Melling. But simply Mooy, Koren and Paartalu should have defended significantly better, and especially with the Central Coast's 1st goal there was very little pressure and defending from our midfielders in the lead up to that goal.

 

We need more goal threat from the team. Granted, the Central Coast keeper Reddy make at least 3 impressive saves, but we still need more attacking players that can regularly get good shots on goal. Koren and Mooy easily had the best shots on goal in this match, and that's telling of how little goal-threat our so-called 'strikers' provide. Our top goal-scorers this season are: Koren 3, Mooy 3, Paartalu 3. And then Williams and Dugandzic only have 2 goals each, the same as David Villa who left in October.

 

Central Coast should be acknowledged to a degree at well. They say the noose concentrates the mind, and the Mariners team played like they were fighting to avoid big problems for their team, and probably big problems for their club as well. 

 

 

I think what's clear now is that the shortcomings that exist within the team didn't fully go away with our good run of 3 wins over 4 games. The team:

 

- Needs a significantly improved defence. We need a fit Chapman, and probably multiple new defenders as well. And neither keeper is doing themselves any favours, and both at this rate IMO will be lucky to be at the club next season

- Needs more goal-threat. Hopefully Kennedy largely solves this problem

- Needs more depth. Disappointing that the likes of Retre can even make the bench

 

 

The team now has a few weeks to go away and sort itself out, and get back to good form. We need a fully fit Chapman and Koren (who BTW were managed appropriately IMO. Earlier this week people were saying that our recently recovered players shouldn't be risked, so their limited game time was correctly managed IMO). The team's defence needs to be strengthened this month if the team is to finish the season strongly. And Kennedy needs to become fully fit, join the team and start firing. So a displeasing downturn from the team's good form of recent weeks, and it's clear now that the team has a few things to sort out before the February 1 match.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Murfy1

[HEARTinator]

I would seriously consider stripping Kisnorbo of the captaincy. The guy shouldn't be undroppable.

Koren, Duff or Paartalu to wear the armband.

Thoughts?

I've said it before but Kisnorbo should be relieved of the captaincy and the armband given to our most consistent player Mooy - a fair reward for his effort this season. Today wasn't Mooy's best game but he was OK but Kisnorbo's bad days can cost us goals/games.

[kingofhearts]

Notes on the game today:

 

- Our defence is absolutely shocking. Germano should've started at RB instead, we had to watch CCM attack Weilarts wing every single time they went forward. I thought the gooch was alright, but when the hoff comes back we can put him in RB, then put germano on the left, pushing the gooch up the pitch. Also, every CB except Chapman has to go. Our CB's are either past it (Weilart,Kisnorbo) or have NFI what their doing their in the first place (Archibald)

 

-Mate Dugandic wow how the mighty have fallen. I've always been a pretty big Mate fan but he was shocking today, dare i say, ramsy-esq. Everytime we went forward today we always went through Duffs wing, i reckon i could count on one hand the amount of times we went to Mates wing. His spot should go to Brown and he should be seldom used off the bench for the rest of the season.

 

-The Koren sub was interesting when we got the red, i get a feeling that he was going to be subbed off soon anyway due to the fact this is his second start this season, so people saying he was subbed off because we were 'phoning it in' are wrong IMO.

 

We really need to sign 2-3 players in the transfer window if we have any chance of pushing higher up the ladder.

[Imperial Pints]

I would seriously consider stripping Kisnorbo of the captaincy. The guy shouldn't be undroppable.

Koren, Duff or Paartalu to wear the armband.

Thoughts?

I've said it before but Kisnorbo should be relieved of the captaincy and the armband given to our most consistent player Mooy - a fair reward for his effort this season. Today wasn't Mooy's best game but he was OK but Kisnorbo's bad days can cost us goals/games.

No way would I give the armband to Mooy, the guy is a gun but as far as I can see he's not demonstrative enough to be a leader. As you say he's our most consistant player but the captaincy may become a burden and if it does-we're fucked.

Still shocked that Archibald got a start ahead of Germano btw, and can't see anything about Brown that suggests he's of a league standard. Anything.

[NewConvert]

Did not get to watch the game but did manage to tune to ABC just when Duke scored the second goal and I knew that the game and season were over. Interestingly reading the comments; it does seem to me that the reason why the team went on a winning/non-losing streak was the introduction of Melling and Chapman. It also seems that the question marks regarding Retre and Archibald have been answered as well - given another opportunity they did not rise to the occasion nor do they seem to have arrived at the ground.

The obvious problem regarding the lack of depth at the rear has been evident from the pre-season and this month will be the only opportunity the club will have to fix it. BTW there seems to have been some talk that the full list was available for selection but given that Mauk, Marino, Hoffman, etc are still out injured I am getting really annoyed at the amount of information provided by the club regarding injury status.

Finally, regarding Kirsnorbo, I will point out that Popovic dropped the WSW's captain - Beauchamp - for the whole season without stripping him of the captaincy and at seasons end he was released. 

[SF33]

Notes on the game today:

 

- Our defence is absolutely shocking. Germano should've started at RB instead, we had to watch CCM attack Weilarts wing every single time they went forward. I thought the gooch was alright, but when the hoff comes back we can put him in RB, then put germano on the left, pushing the gooch up the pitch. Also, every CB except Chapman has to go. Our CB's are either past it (Weilart,Kisnorbo) or have NFI what their doing their in the first place (Archibald)

 

-Mate Dugandic wow how the mighty have fallen. I've always been a pretty big Mate fan but he was shocking today, dare i say, ramsy-esq. Everytime we went forward today we always went through Duffs wing, i reckon i could count on one hand the amount of times we went to Mates wing. His spot should go to Brown and he should be seldom used off the bench for the rest of the season.

 

-The Koren sub was interesting when we got the red, i get a feeling that he was going to be subbed off soon anyway due to the fact this is his second start this season, so people saying he was subbed off because we were 'phoning it in' are wrong IMO.

 

We really need to sign 2-3 players in the transfer window if we have any chance of pushing higher up the ladder.

 

On the bolded: I bloody hope so. If a manager is seriously throwing in the towel 60 minutes in and down two goals, I don't care if the team is playing against Bayern Munich, it's time for him to walk away from football and never return.

 

It's a mental thing with this team. The good sides wouldn't go to Gosford after a few good results and put up that rubbish. It's absolutely atrocious. And people can talk about missing Chapman and Melling, the guys that aren't there, but where is the bloody leadership from other players to say 'Ok, we've got a couple of boys that might struggle out here today, I'm going to have to be right on from start to finish in this one'?

 

Back to square one...sigh...

[Tesla]

@hedaik - dont bother with a man of the match voting thread.

Would vote Tando

Changed the game with that play, we would have lost otherwise.

[Tesla]

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

[KSK_47]

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in

[Tesla]

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in

We were down 2-0 and playing shit, the odds of us even getting a draw were small, I'd say under 5%. Chance of winning it, not even 1%.

Honestly it was more likely Koren would get a season ending injury than us winning that game.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Tesla

[Thrillhouse]

1 win in our history against ccm...

[KSK_47]

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes inWe were down 2-0 and playing shit, the odds of us even getting a draw were small, I'd say under 5%. Chance of winning it, not even 1%.

Had it not been for two incredible saves we would have gone into the break 2 all (had it not been for our ridiculous defense it would have been nill all). We were down but by no means out. When Tan do got sent off it was always going to be tough but we could at least go down swinging. Drag off one of the many many duds to choose from. Keep Koren on for another 10 or so and at least try to get something out of it. If he scores it's a totally different game. Another 10-15 minutes wouldn't have killed him. Shouldn't anyway.

[MHTIDALIVE]

At least we were in form, otherwise the end result could have been much, much worse

[KSK_47]

At least we were in form, otherwise the end result could have been much, much worse

Haha. In form?! You know you follow a club with exceptionally low standards when you watch that game and think we were in form

[MHTIDALIVE]

 

At least we were in form, otherwise the end result could have been much, much worse

Haha. In form?! You know you follow a club with exceptionally low standards when you watch that game and think we were in form

 

I am quite realistic about it. I would say that at best we are top 10 team in the A-League

[hakz7]

At least we were in form, otherwise the end result could have been much, much worse

Haha. In form?! You know you follow a club with exceptionally low standards when you watch that game and think we were in formFor us, having won one game feels like having gone invincible for the season.

[SF33]

 

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in

 

 

It's simple for me. If Koren was due to come off anyway in the next 5-10 minutes, fair enough. If it was strictly because JVS had given up on the game, it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

You can be down 2-0 and not look like firing a shot, then sneak one in with five minutes to go and it's game on. Which, let's not forget, is pretty much what happened the last time these two teams met.

[SF33]

 

 

 

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in We were down 2-0 and playing shit, the odds of us even getting a draw were small, I'd say under 5%. Chance of winning it, not even 1%.

Had it not been for two incredible saves we would have gone into the break 2 all (had it not been for our ridiculous defense it would have been nill all). We were down but by no means out. When Tan do got sent off it was always going to be tough but we could at least go down swinging. Drag off one of the many many duds to choose from. Keep Koren on for another 10 or so and at least try to get something out of it. If he scores it's a totally different game. Another 10-15 minutes wouldn't have killed him. Shouldn't anyway.

 

 

Spot on. **** me. How many people here would have had the balls to say 'Game over' if the shoe was on the other foot? Crickets...

 

Most of us were waiting for something horrible to happen when it was 4-1 against the Jets on Tuesday. Two goals against a cellar dweller like Central Coast is nothing...that team had forgotten how to win, until we reminded them. We should remember what that feels like...which is, your team goes from 2-0 up to 2-1 up and you're actually expecting something dreadful to happen. You have zero confidence in your team being able to close the game out.

[KSK_47]

 

 

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in

 

 

It's simple for me. If Koren was due to come off anyway in the next 5-10 minutes, fair enough. If it was strictly because JVS had given up on the game, it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

You can be down 2-0 and not look like firing a shot, then sneak one in with five minutes to go and it's game on. Which, let's not forget, is pretty much what happened the last time these two teams met.

 

 

He doesnt have to come off simply because JVS had originally planned for him to come off at that time before kick off. He could have realized how important he was and changed his mind.This is where being adaptable and having the ability to make difficult choices on the fly is so important. You know, like being a good manager

Edited January 4, 2015 by KSK_47

[Luke]

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes inWe were down 2-0 and playing shit, the odds of us even getting a draw were small, I'd say under 5%. Chance of winning it, not even 1%.Had it not been for two incredible saves we would have gone into the break 2 all (had it not been for our ridiculous defense it would have been nill all). We were down but by no means out. When Tan do got sent off it was always going to be tough but we could at least go down swinging. Drag off one of the many many duds to choose from. Keep Koren on for another 10 or so and at least try to get something out of it. If he scores it's a totally different game. Another 10-15 minutes wouldn't have killed him. Shouldn't anyway. You do realise it was our third and final sub ? Mate the game was gone at 2:0 those saves were a hammer blow to our confidence as well Edited January 4, 2015 by Luke

[Shahanga]

Away so didn't get to watch. Happy Days.

Re bringing on Redders this was our last sub so koren either played the full 90 or came off then. We were all critical of the short term approach to injuries at the start of the season, in this game we seem to have taken a different approach. No idea if it was the right decision or not.

[hyperfuzz]

[kingofhearts]

clearly got the ball.

[Tesla]

I doubt Koren can last a full 90 currently any way, he was coming off either way.

[Swiss Toni]

2-0 down and down to 10 men.... take our best attacking player off and park the bus. Vintage Melbourne Heart.

How is this vintage MHFC? The failings of CFG being regularly attributed to MHFC is getting somewhat tiresome (IMO).

[KSK_47]

 

 

 

 

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in We were down 2-0 and playing shit, the odds of us even getting a draw were small, I'd say under 5%. Chance of winning it, not even 1%. Had it not been for two incredible saves we would have gone into the break 2 all (had it not been for our ridiculous defense it would have been nill all). We were down but by no means out. When Tan do got sent off it was always going to be tough but we could at least go down swinging. Drag off one of the many many duds to choose from. Keep Koren on for another 10 or so and at least try to get something out of it. If he scores it's a totally different game. Another 10-15 minutes wouldn't have killed him. Shouldn't anyway. You do realise it was our third and final sub ? Mate the game was gone at 2:0 those saves were a hammer blow to our confidence as well

 

 

I accidentally deleted my other post, but yes I forgot about Brown on for Duga (probably because they were both just as rubbish as each other)

 

Anyway. The point is the lack of fight comes from the top.

[kingofhearts]

I doubt Koren can last a full 90 currently any way, he was coming off either way.

Exactly right. The red card just sped up the process.

While you never like to lose any game, there was no point in risking our marquee getting injured for one game.

How about this for a question then, if JVS had left koren on and he had gott injured, would we applaud him for chasing the game, or berate him for pushing a player who came back from injury+ risking the marquee in a game that was clearly gone?

[KSK_47]

 

I doubt Koren can last a full 90 currently any way, he was coming off either way.

Exactly right. The red card just sped up the process.

While you never like to lose any game, there was no point in risking our marquee getting injured for one game.

How about this for a question then, if JVS had left koren on and he had gott injured, would we applaud him for chasing the game, or berate him for pushing a player who came back from injury+ risking the marquee in a game that was clearly gone?

 

 

I would and do think he is an idiot for not paying enough (any) attention to our defense and putting us in this situation in the first place. 

 

But as mentioned earlier, yes, I forgot about Brown coming on which does make my argument invalid. The point is that there never seems to be a plan B for when things go wrong with JVS.

Edited January 4, 2015 by KSK_47

[Tony999]

So Kisnorbo's & Weilart's contract expires seasons end. Thank Christ for that!

[jw1739]

IMO everyone's getting in an unnecessary lather.

 

What did you really expect? The facts are that we've gone into this season with two mediocre GKs, two ageing CBs, no proper FBs, and no decent strikers. You can't expect to win many matches when the team revolves around Chapman, Melling, Mooy, Paartalu, Koren and Duff - barely half the team.

 

Everyone knows that we have recruited badly, and we've retained players who we should not have, and we are playing players out of position because the alternative is even worse.

 

It's a team game, and most weeks we've barely got half a team out there.

[KSK_47]

 

 

What did you really expect?

 

JVS to have been canned by now and a clear statement from his replacement as to what his plans are and how he goes about implementing them. 

[silva10]

Well with Chapman out JVS had to make the right decision about who came in. He didn't and the consequence was a defeat which should have been a win.

 

I guess he wasn't paying attention in the Wellington game. If he had he would have seen how Archibald struggled when anyone with pace attacked him. Putting him in defence alongside Kisnorbo was a shocking decision.

 

He should have played Germano and RB and Wielhart in the centre. Even though Wielhart lacks pace he is smarter and quicker than Archibald.

 

Added to this was the genreal apathy from the team for the first 30 minutes. There was not one player who I would have given a mark out of 10.

 

Came back in it the last 15 minutes of the first half, but the damage was already done.

 

What this game told me is that JVS, Velaphi, Redmayne, Kisnorbo, Wielhart, Dugandzic, Brown, Ramsay and Williams all have to be moved on as quickly as possible. Young Archibald needs to spend the next two years in the youth team and try to improve his game.

 

I am not confident it will happen, but you always have hope.

[drewmelbcity]

Btw, JVS did the right thing taking Koren off. Save him for another day. He's just come back from injury, probably not fully recovered yet, why risk him when the game is most likely gone.

I disagree. He was our only hope of winning. Taking him off was admitting defeat and we were only 60 minutes in We were down 2-0 and playing shit, the odds of us even getting a draw were small, I'd say under 5%. Chance of winning it, not even 1%.

Honestly it was more likely Koren would get a season ending injury than us winning that game.

And down one player

[drewmelbcity]

Today's game is a good indicator as to why we are sixth, on our day we can beat the likes of victory, match it with Perth smash a hapless jets, but then on the other scale of the spectrum we can get done by a shite team like ccm. We are the yin and the yang, when your mid table you get the good and the bad.

[Murfy1]

IMO everyone's getting in an unnecessary lather.

 

What did you really expect? The facts are that we've gone into this season with two mediocre GKs, two ageing CBs, no proper FBs, and no decent strikers. You can't expect to win many matches when the team revolves around Chapman, Melling, Mooy, Paartalu, Koren and Duff - barely half the team.

 

Everyone knows that we have recruited badly, and we've retained players who we should not have, and we are playing players out of position because the alternative is even worse.

 

It's a team game, and most weeks we've barely got half a team out there.

 

 

Actually I think this bold part shows that we've recruited pretty well. The pillars of the team ARE ALL NEW PLAYERS. It is quite ridiculous. None of last season's players are putting in decent efforts.

 

Just look at the top scorers:

 

 

Also David Villa got 2 goals.

 

So 3 midfielders are all the top club scorers. And new players have scored 13 of the club's 20 goals, and out of the old players 3 of their 7 goals were scored by defenders.

 

Or look at today's game. All the best chances came from shots that Koren, Mooy and Paartalu produced. Once again our new midfielders are out-performing our old forwards (that is Dugandzic & Williams. Ramsay can't even get off the bench for this injury-weakened team).

 

 

The problem as I see it is that we needed to recruit an entirely new team, but it is impossible to recruit 23 players for a salary capped team in 1 transfer window. No old Heart players have proven that they deserve a spot in this team next season, whilst pretty much every one of the 14 new players signed for Melbourne City have shown value, and at very least they have shown that they are more deserving of a spot than their Heart equivalents. Hopefully Kennedy and maybe a defensive recruit or two over January can compensate for the deadweight of the Melbourne Heart players that are presently clogging up the playing roster, but until the remainder of the deadweight is moved on (Ramsay, Germano, Wielaert, Kisnorbo, Murdocca etc.) then I think it's likely that the team will continue to be inconsistent, and consistent success will elude the team. 

Edited January 4, 2015 by Murfy1

[silva10]

 

IMO everyone's getting in an unnecessary lather.

 

What did you really expect? The facts are that we've gone into this season with two mediocre GKs, two ageing CBs, no proper FBs, and no decent strikers. You can't expect to win many matches when the team revolves around Chapman, Melling, Mooy, Paartalu, Koren and Duff - barely half the team.

 

Everyone knows that we have recruited badly, and we've retained players who we should not have, and we are playing players out of position because the alternative is even worse.

 

It's a team game, and most weeks we've barely got half a team out there.

 

 

Actually I think this bold part shows that we've recruited pretty well. The pillars of the team ARE ALL NEW PLAYERS. It is quite ridiculous. None of last season's players are putting in decent efforts.

 

Just look at the top scorers:

 

 

Also David Villa got 2 goals.

 

So 3 midfielders are all the tops club scorers. And new players have scored 13 of the club's 20 goals, and out of the old player 3 of those 7 goals were scored by our defenders.

 

Or look at today's game. All the best chances came from shots that Koren, Mooy and Paartalu took. Once again our new midfielders are out-performing our old forwards (Dugandzic, Williams. Ramsay can't even get off the bench for this injury ravaged team).

 

 

The problem as I see it is that we needed to recruit an entirely new team, but it is impossible to recruit 23 players for a salary capped team in 1 transfer window. No old Heart players have proven that they deserve a spot in this team next season, whilst pretty much every one of the 14 new players signed for Melbourne City's have shown value, and at very least they have shown that they are more deserving of a spot than their Heart equivalents. Hopefully Kennedy and maybe a defensive recruit or two over January can compensate for the deadweight of the Melbourne Heart players that are presently clogging up the playing roster, but until the remainder of the deadweight is moved on (Ramsay, Germano, Wielaert, Kisnorbo, Murdocca etc.) then I think it's likely that the team will continue to be inconsistent, and consistent success will elude the team. 

 

 

Murfy I agree, however I believe a new coach would also benefit the club and give us all a fresh start.