IN or Out

[Embee]

 

Alright lads,

 

Just had a chat to a mate who writes for an English based website called '89th minute' which is normally Arsenal geared but open to talking about other teams and leagues. A couple of the blokes on there have taken an interest in the A-League and are interested in our plight, they're looking at writing a piece up for us as we speak, I'll let you know when it's all good to go.

 

He's taken some quotes from myself, so a bit of the article will be around my personal opinions but having read a lot of comments on here I feel that my feelings regarding the colours are probably echoed by more than a few.

 

If anything I'm hoping that this may just bring some light onto our current situation and inform those in the wider football community of what is happening to our club down here in Australia.

 

Here's their website if you want to read some of their previous articles: http://89thminute.co.uk/

King Malta, I'm not a man who swears much, but you are a fuckin legend , even more than before !

Great work

 

 

Haha cheers mate, Just glad to be able to help out the cause in any way possible.

 

Our club, our colours.

Edited April 3, 2014 by King Malta

[FB.]

LOOK OUT more people in than out

 

I don't think it matters who's IN or OUT.

 

At the end of the day, I think almost everyone here would prefer the colours to stay as Red & White.

 

That's what it should be about imo.

[Tesla]

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

[RoyalHeart]

Why is hashtagging faggotory? It's a cheap, and easy way to market something.

[hedaik]

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

 

I'd say that getting 1000 people to hold up signs plus anything else that may happen during the game will be more effective than 50 people handing in stat decs which would receive close to zero attention by anybody. Not to mention how easy one is to organise over the other.

 

I'm sure their own surveys and research will far outweigh anything that we protest about, but if it at least makes them think a little longer about the decision then I think its worth it. 

Edited April 3, 2014 by hedaik

[Red or Dead]

LOOK OUT more people in than out

It's literally 50:50 now!!

[Shahanga]

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

Write to the club saying that Tesla.  I did.

 

No harm in doing the hash tag stuff as well if that floats your boat.

[kingofhearts]

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

About 2-3 weeks ago i sent an e-mail asking about if their would be a possible fan forum so the supporters could let their opinion be heard about any possible colour/ name changes. Still waiting for a response.

 

Maybe if their were a flood of e-mails they would respond, but how many people would it take for a response, 100 people? 500 people? At least FB and co are taking the initiative of doing something, instead of waiting for the club to do something. 

[Semper Cor]

I think it's important to clearly state why Red and White is so important and integral to the club. IMO there are 3 main reasons why a colour change away from Red and White, and especially to sky blue, would just be too much, and could drive support away from the club:

 

The first reason (BTW reasons are in no particular order) is what the colours Red and White represent. The colours clearly and visibly mark Melbourne Heart as different from victory, but they also do much more and symbolically represent the difference from victory and what Heart stands for. The 3 pillars that Heart stands for is attacking football (originally and specifically Dutch football), promotion of youth football (both at the club and in the coummunity) and community engagement. These 3 values are ideals of the club, in that they are always aspired to whether or not they are always fully achieved. But I'd contend that Heart has been pretty true to these values for much of its history, which has been clearly shown off the pitch by Heart doing football clinics for around 80,000 young boys and girls (I remember going to a random community event for non-football reasons, and seeing a lot of Melbourne Heart activities there. It really is remarkable how much community events across Victoria that Heart does), and has perhaps been clearest shown and highlighted on the pitch in our first derby win and our last derby win (both of which had impressive attacking football and young players debuting).

The phrase "Red and White" has become a byword for Melbourne Heart FC, so Red and White are about more than the colours themselves.

 

The second reason is the colours themselves. Red and White are classic football colours, and remind people of classic football kits across the world. The colours balanced nicely with the rather new club that Melbourne Heart was in the A-League, and still is by global stands. And the colours made Heart distinct both in the Melbourne and in the A-League. Also, the colours have a great aesthetic appeal. I personally would have been pretty displeased if my club had green kits and colour (like North Queensland Fury had), the colour purple (Perth) or the Mariners kit. I think the Heart jerseys are easily among the best in the league, and I personally think they are the best. And after all these years there's just such a great familiarity with the colours Red and White. The colours not only look right, but feel right. And there's a deep feeling that the colours are very much Melbourne Heart.

 

The third reason is the betrayal and insult by the new owners that a colour change (and especially a colour change to sky blue) would forever signify. The Man City group have uttered some pretty words since the takeover, such as "we want to listen and learn first, and take well-supported decisions immediately thereafter", "this is not a small Manchester team", "this will not be a mini Manchester City, this a Melbourne club" and "so our team here will be a Melbourne team, rooted and developed for the Melbourne fans". All of those promises and pledges will forever feel like a stab in the back if Melbourne Heart is turned into a clone of Man City. And what trust could supporters ever have in a club that treats its fans with such contempt? And how could supporters ever care about and be passionate about a club they can't even trust?

 

 

I'm sure other supporters have others reasons why the colours Red and White are so important, and why they are effectively a line in the sand. But for me the colours themselves, what the colours represent, and the great betrayal that a change from Red and White to sky blue would signify are main reasons why my support would be in serious doubt if the colours were changed.

 

Some very good points.

 

Personally I like the Red & White Heart colours not only from an aesthetic appeal, but also because of the very strong tangible connection of these colours to the City of Melbourne flag.

 

It won’t be news to people here, but historically and traditionally the term ‘City’ in a football club’s name refers to the actual city where the football club is located, Manchester City, Birmingham City etc.

 

For a club that increasingly looks likely in acquiring the term ‘City’ within its’ name, what more appropriate way to marry and strengthen the ties of the club with Melbourne by adopting its’ flags’ colours like we already have.  To do otherwise not only goes against the definition of the term ‘City’ from a footballing traditional sense, but also fails to build a relationship with the people of Melbourne.

 

This failure is only enhanced if you wish to replace the colours with sky blue, a colour that already has a long history with another Australian city that is Melbourne’s number one competitor in almost every facet of life from sport to culture to business and everything in between.  You not only need a valid reason to remove the Red & White, you need an even more valid reason to replace it with sky blue and as yet I see no valid reason.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Semper Cor

[HEARTinator]

Here is the story behind the choice of badge design for New York City FC

http://nycfc.com/News/Latest-News/2014/March/Badge

 

Seems like MCFC went to some trouble to engage with potential fans in New York. My BOLDing and Underlining

 

_______________________

 

With approximately one year to go before kicking off its inaugural season in March 2015, today New York City FC unveiled its official team badge. The badge, created by renowned designer Rafael Esquer, was selected by an online, public vote in which fans chose between two potential badges. 

 

Over the course of four days last week, more than 100,000 votes were cast, deciding the badge that will become the bedrock of the club’s identity and a focal point of all team gear and merchandise. New York City FC Sporting Director Claudio Reyna, Chief Business Officer Tim Pernetti, and Head Coach Jason Kreis unveiled the winning badge in front of New York City FC leadership, partners, supporters and members of the media at the Adidas Store in New York City this evening. 

 

The winning badge is inspired by the old New York City Subway Token, created by the Transit Authority in 1953 and used for 50 years as the standard fare for a ride. The last version of the token had a cut out pentagon in the center representing the five boroughs, similar to what appears on either side of the monogram, to reinforce the Club’s connection to entire city. The circle is also a symbol of unity, wholeness and infinity, and is often associated with potential and the number one. This is a modern and confident badge that clearly speaks to New York City’s status as a leading city.

The badge features the typeface Gotham, a wholly American font inspired by the City’s signage. Born out of an in-depth study of building lettering in New York City, the monogram reflects the rich graphic language that is so much a signature of the five boroughs. The colors navy blue, white and orange are drawn from the New York City flag.

 

“Given the significance of a Club’s badge and what it means for a team’s identity, it was important for us to have our fans included from the beginning—a commitment that we’ve made from the start,” said Claudio Reyna, Sporting Director of New York City FC. “Thanks to the the voice of our fans, we feel that we have a design that truly represents our Club and our City.”

Today marks another important milestone in the ongoing development of the New York City FC, and we’re excited to unveil the crest that will represent our Club, our City and our fans,” said Tim Pernetti, Chief Business Officer of New York City FC. “Thank you to the fans who cast more than 100,000 votes and helped make New York City FC history.” 

 

______________________

Edited April 3, 2014 by HEARTinator

[Fingman]

Personally I like the Red & White Heart colours not only from an aesthetic appeal, but also because of the very strong tangible connection of these colours to the City of Melbourne flag.

It won’t be news to people here, but historically and traditionally the term ‘City’ in a football club’s name refers to the actual city where the football club is located, Manchester City, Birmingham City etc.

For a club that increasingly looks likely in acquiring the term ‘City’ within its’ name, what more appropriate way to marry and strengthen the ties of the club with Melbourne by adopting its’ flags’ colours like we already have. To do otherwise not only goes against the definition of the term ‘City’ from a footballing traditional sense, but also fails to build a relationship with the people of Melbourne.

This failure is only enhanced if you wish to replace the colours with sky blue, a colour that already has a long history with another Australian city that is Melbourne’s number one competitor in almost every facet of life from sport to culture to business and everything in between. You not only need a valid reason to remove the Red & White, you need an even more valid reason to replace it with sky blue and as yet I see no valid reason.

THIS!

[Tesla]

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

 

I'd say that getting 1000 people to hold up signs plus anything else that may happen during the game will be more effective than 50 people handing in stat decs which would receive close to zero attention by anybody. Not to mention how easy one is to organise over the other.

 

I'm sure their own surveys and research will far outweigh anything that we protest about, but if it at least makes them think a little longer about the decision then I think its worth it.

Agree, I've got no problem at all with messages at the game. Just not a fan of the social media thing, it's a bit lame, and more important it doesn't really hold much weight.

I was making a point that it's easy to say you're 'out' on a forum or social media or w/e, but next season most will still come crawling back, and the owners know this.

Why i'd like to see the 'outs' back up their claims and sign a statutory declaration if they really are out

Personally, don't know what I'd do, but if we lose our identity it would be very hard to find the motivation to support the new club to the level I have supported Heart.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Tesla

[billyheart]

But if my business had 400+ (in a day mind you) people liking a campaign on facebook against something I'm contemplating doing. I'd be far more concerned about that then recieving 2 or 3 formal complaints. Social media (personally don't like it either) can be a very powerful tool. And for a problem like this in 2014 I'm happy to see it being utilised.

[Libero]

Agree, I've got no problem at all with messages at the game. Just not a fan of the social media thing, it's a bit lame, and more important it doesn't really hold much weight.

 

 

 

while what you've said is true, it is still worth a try isnt it?

[milanista93]

Agree, I've got no problem at all with messages at the game. Just not a fan of the social media thing, it's a bit lame, and more important it doesn't really hold much weight.

while what you've said is true, it is still worth a try isnt it? Indeed. Social media is actually a HUGE marketing tool. That's why it still exists. And it's 'reach' goes far beyond just those who like or follow. For example, with the Facebook page, when there was around 150 'likes', there was also over 500 who had seen an update. By around midnight the pages reach was close to 7000.

While I see your point with people legally stating they won't re-sign, it doesn't have the outward impact a social media campaign does. We've got people around the world fighting for us now. Depending on how big it ends up getting, for the owners to ignore a passionate fight in the public eye would shine a very negative light upon them. That's what we can hope to achieve by a public campaign.

[lonestay]

Hi from UK yep city fan, with a twist on the yes or no debate. If you were to vote no and not support the club in the future and the club started to play fantastic soccer and dominate the league would you become a plastic fan and jump back in and support the club?

[big_papa_g22]

Hi from UK yep city fan, with a twist on the yes or no debate. If you were to vote no and not support the club in the future and the club started to play fantastic soccer and dominate the league would you become a plastic fan and jump back in and support the club?

no

[red and white in that number]

Hi from UK yep city fan, with a twist on the yes or no debate. If you were to vote no and not support the club in the future and the club started to play fantastic soccer and dominate the league would you become a plastic fan and jump back in and support the club?

 

No

 

The issue is the colours, not the results on the pitch.The name change is fine with me,but we stay red and white.

[belaguttman]

Just a reminder that CFG has actually said nothing officially  about changing our colours, there is are media comments from football writers that suggest that it'll happen. We certainly should be very clear to CFG about our desire to remain red and white and the last game is perfect opportunity, however its important that we remain passionate but not angry over something may never be in the pipeline.

 

lone stay, let me illuminate your question by asking you what you would do in the hypothetical situation of a Chinese business man taking over your club, renaming it Manchester Evergrande (just to borrow a name from a Chinese club) and changed the jersey colour to red? Would you be happy to stay on board? If you stopped supporting the club would you jump back on board just because they were successful?

[hedaik]

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

I'd say that getting 1000 people to hold up signs plus anything else that may happen during the game will be more effective than 50 people handing in stat decs which would receive close to zero attention by anybody. Not to mention how easy one is to organise over the other.

I'm sure their own surveys and research will far outweigh anything that we protest about, but if it at least makes them think a little longer about the decision then I think its worth it.Agree, I've got no problem at all with messages at the game. Just not a fan of the social media thing, it's a bit lame, and more important it doesn't really hold much weight.

I was making a point that it's easy to say you're 'out' on a forum or social media or w/e, but next season most will still come crawling back, and the owners know this.

Why i'd like to see the 'outs' back up their claims and sign a statutory declaration if they really are out

Yeah well most social media camapaigns are pretty lame imo, especially for Heart who have such a small presence even in the real world.

As far as voting no, its just my way of saying Im not automatically in. As Ive said previously Ill need new reasons to support a new club and I wont be renewing my membership straight away like I would have without the changes.

(I personally think we'll go red white and blue, and a heart will be represented in the logo which would be enough for me)

Edited April 3, 2014 by hedaik

[MaliMate]

More concerned about us keeping Hoffman (who will find a way to play every game next season) than what I am about our colours. (srs)

[Baresi]

 

 

 

Instead of partaking in forum polling and social media hashtag faggotry or w/e is going on in this thread, how about every member that is 'out', signs a statutory declaration saying they won't be purchasing a membership or attending any MHFC games next year if the colours change, and they send them in to the club.

I'd say one member pretty much guaranteeing they wont be buying a membership next year means more than any of this.

I'd say that getting 1000 people to hold up signs plus anything else that may happen during the game will be more effective than 50 people handing in stat decs which would receive close to zero attention by anybody. Not to mention how easy one is to organise over the other.

I'm sure their own surveys and research will far outweigh anything that we protest about, but if it at least makes them think a little longer about the decision then I think its worth it. Agree, I've got no problem at all with messages at the game. Just not a fan of the social media thing, it's a bit lame, and more important it doesn't really hold much weight.

I was making a point that it's easy to say you're 'out' on a forum or social media or w/e, but next season most will still come crawling back, and the owners know this.

Why i'd like to see the 'outs' back up their claims and sign a statutory declaration if they really are out Yeah well most social media camapaigns are pretty lame imo, especially for Heart who have such a small presence even in the real world.

As far as voting no, its just my way of saying Im not automatically in. As Ive said previously Ill need new reasons to support a new club and I wont be renewing my membership straight away like I would have without the changes.

(I personally think we'll go red white and blue, and a heart will be represented in the logo which would be enough for me)

 

Social media is lame, but it raises this campaign (for lack of a better word) to the attention of many people who may otherwise not have known about it.

Many general Heart fans might be willing to accept the MCFC changes, but they would likely prefer to keep the red and white.

The earlier and the stronger we present this to other fans, the more chance (I think) that they will also feel the same.

 

[Falastur]

lone stay, let me illuminate your question by asking you what you would do in the hypothetical situation of a Chinese business man taking over your club, renaming it Manchester Evergrande (just to borrow a name from a Chinese club) and changed the jersey colour to red? Would you be happy to stay on board? If you stopped supporting the club would you jump back on board just because they were successful?

 

Obviously I can't answer for lonestay, but from my point of view I think your question raises an interesting question about just what you guys mean by a "no" vote. Are you saying that you wouldn't renew your memberships, or that your links with the club, physical and emotion, would be entirely and permanently severed? To show you what I mean, here is my answer to your question:

 

Would I attend matches? No.

Would I buy a membership of any sort? No.

Would I buy merchandise through the club shop, even of the old blue shirts? No.

Would I watch the games and talk about them at work? No.

Would I be angry beyond belief and feel my link with the club was broken beyond repair (barring a complete reversal, of course)? Yes, beyond doubt.

 

However: 

 

Would I cease to be a fan of the club? No.

 

At the end of the day, my bond with City is stronger than my bond even to some members of my own family. When City lose, or even draw, games then it hurts me in the same way as it would hurt me to see my child (incidentally, I'm not a parent, but regardless) humiliated or made fun of in a school play or another public event. It takes me days to recover from. And if City were to have their identity ripped away from them, I would be furious, and I would be furious for a very, very long time. But I could never permanently sever my bond with the club. I might try to divorce my emotions from them, I might refuse to check the results or tell people I had lost interest in football, but I would always feel a little pang of pain to hear that they'd been knocked out of a cup, or feel a giddy thrill if I heard that they'd won the league, or even escaped relegation. At the end of the day, I could never, but never, EVER, turn my support over to another team. The bond that I feel to City is not the kind which is designed to be transferred.

 

But that's just me. Anyway, I'm not trying to influence any of you, or provide commentary on the responses I've seen here. I'd also still quite like to see lonestay's comments (and for that matter, those of silva10 and M13). But I just thought I'd provide you guys with an insight on our viewpoints - I think (I hope?) that the other English guys here will say something similar, although if they don't then that would be equally interesting.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Falastur

[lonestay]

No I wouldn't jump onboard again because I wouldn't have stopped supporting in the first place, Heart are on the cusp of something big,bigger than anything seen in Australian soccers history.As many posters from the UK have said Sheik Mansour does not do anything in half measures, and as he is proving in the UK only the best will do. After supporting a club for four seasons could you as fans really just stop going to the games and walk away ? When I was a kid I didn't choose to support city they chose me in away, it felt right, and although I love the colours we play in (always been a fan of the red n black stripes with the badge in the middle of the shirt) of sky blue what ever we played in it would still be my team, the team I support what ever .

[n i k o]

Hi from UK yep city fan, with a twist on the yes or no debate. If you were to vote no and not support the club in the future and the club started to play fantastic soccer and dominate the league would you become a plastic fan and jump back in and support the club?

Easy to answer that. Melbourne victory won two titles years back. Here we are as heart supporters. Nuff said.

[Pete Heartspur]

OUT!

 

If you're someone who would at the very least prefer for the colours to stay Red & White, giving an answer along the lines of 'I'd rather we kept our colours but would continue supporting the team', is basically saying to CFG 'Yes, go ahead!' If they really are determined to change our colours, any answer besides a 'NO' gives them leverage to do so. If they know people will still be onboard even if they didn't really want a colour change, they'll know they can't lose anyhting from those people.

 

So in short, even if you would be mildly annoyed, disheartened, etc., any response in a public forum should be 'OUT', no compromise. Don't give them any reason to think it would be ok!

[belaguttman]

Whether people stay or go it's clear that CFG can't assume that the same level of passion and commitment shown by fans towards Melbourne Heart can't be taken for granted. The more changes that they make in particular around team colours, the more they will have to do to convince fans to even stay involved yet alone stay involved passionately

[LR9]

No I wouldn't jump onboard again because I wouldn't have stopped supporting in the first place, City are on the cusp of something big,bigger than anything seen in Australian soccers history

^Fixed.

And yes, you wouldn't be jumping on board again, because you wouldn't be supporting Heart anymore. It becomes a different club all together.

If everything changes, how is it the same club? It's no different outcome to Melbourne Heart folding and Man City purchasing a new licence from the FFA.

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

[MaliMate]

 

No I wouldn't jump onboard again because I wouldn't have stopped supporting in the first place, City are on the cusp of something big,bigger than anything seen in Australian soccers history

^Fixed.

And yes, you wouldn't be jumping on board again, because you wouldn't be supporting Heart anymore. It becomes a different club all together.

If the logo and colours changes, how is it the same club? It's no different outcome to Melbourne Heart folding and Man City purchasing a new licence from the FFA.

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

 

Fixed

[LR9]

No I wouldn't jump onboard again because I wouldn't have stopped supporting in the first place, City are on the cusp of something big,bigger than anything seen in Australian soccers history

^Fixed.

And yes, you wouldn't be jumping on board again, because you wouldn't be supporting Heart anymore. It becomes a different club all together.

If the badge, name and colours changes, how is it the same club? It's no different outcome to Melbourne Heart folding and Man City purchasing a new licence from the FFA.

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

FixedFixed.

[Alexxandro]

 in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

 

Too funny. 

[MaliMate]

Don't get me wrong I'd much prefer to keep the red & white but it doesn't ignite me to the point where I'm going to stop supporting the club.

[jw1739]

 

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

 

Oh no, please don't raise that possibility. That would be too much to bear, even for me. And now I'm probably going to have nightmares about it.

[Jestr]

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

Oh no, please don't raise that possibility. That would be too much to bear, even for me. And now I'm probably going to have nightmares about it.

Won't be funny when he gets the coaching job at heart after retiring from his magnificent career !

[belaguttman]

 

 

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

Oh no, please don't raise that possibility. That would be too much to bear, even for me. And now I'm probably going to have nightmares about it.

Won't be funny when he gets the coaching job at heart after retiring from his magnificent career !

 

The Hoff as coach with Aloisi as his sidekick    

[Tbitm]

Statue in front of aami for the hoff.

[belaguttman]

Statue in front of aami for the hoff.

out the front of AAMI? How about renaming the MCG Sport Museum the Jason Hoffman Museum?

[Tesla]

Players and coaches come and go, in 5 years time all well have is Jason Hoffman to remind us of our club, the club we fell in love with.

Oh no, please don't raise that possibility. That would be too much to bear, even for me. And now I'm probably going to have nightmares about it.

Won't be funny when he gets the coaching job at heart after retiring from his magnificent career !

Hoff will probably end up being a good coach (srs).

[Tbitm]

Statue in front of aami for the hoff.

out the front of AAMI? How about renaming the MCG Sport Museum the Jason Hoffman Museum? Not enough, the north terrace needs to renamed the Hoffman end. Just imagine the BWB being in the Hoffman end

[milanista93]

Statue in front of aami for the hoff.

out the front of AAMI? How about renaming the MCG Sport Museum the Jason Hoffman Museum? Not enough, the north terrace needs to renamed the Hoffman end. Just imagine the BWB being in the Hoffman end

Hoffman Park.