Defensive problems

[NewConvert]

How many goals are Hoffman's fault? And for a guy whose role seems to be just as much an attacking one as a defensive one...

Wielart needs to go because he is a waste of a visa spot but I think a lot of the reason he is poor is that he seems to be too far up the pitch a lot of the time, and I can only imagine that's JVS' fault as either:

He is instructing Wielart to do that (which I believe is the case)

OR

Wielart isn't doing as he is told and shouldn't be playing if that's the case

You could be right but I would also add that there are times he has nowhere to go. I find myself yelling to the other players to give him somewhere to pass the ball to, create a diversion but the defense gets nothing.

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

How many goals are Hoffman's fault? And for a guy whose role seems to be just as much an attacking one as a defensive one...

Wielart needs to go because he is a waste of a visa spot but I think a lot of the reason he is poor is that he seems to be too far up the pitch a lot of the time, and I can only imagine that's JVS' fault as either:

He is instructing Wielart to do that (which I believe is the case)

OR

Wielart isn't doing as he is told and shouldn't be playing if that's the case

You could be right but I would also add that there are times he has nowhere to go. I find myself yelling to the other players to give him somewhere to pass the ball to, create a diversion but the defense gets nothing.

 

 

its the same shit as JVS's first stint and then Aloisi: static team mates nor providing options.

[Jovan]

Our defensive malaise is two fold. With and without the ball. Neither is any good. Ramsey at one time last night was running as fast as he possibly could and I swear he had eyes closed for at least 5 steps. When he looked it was only a coincidence that he was anywhere near Ibini and was able to close him down. All night he had no idea of when to go and when to sit.

Kisnorbo had a poor game and has been poor IMO this season(maybe burden of captaincy). His positioning hasn't been too bad but his distribution has been woeful. Every time he gets the ball I have no idea what he's going to do, generally it's a poor long ball. When he tries to play through(what he should do more often than not) he doesn't have the skill or composure to hit a 15 footer.

Weilart up until last nights debacle has been average, even passable. That square ball last night is a fundamental error, it's something that will haunt him forever. He doesn't deserve a start solely from that lack of judgement, at any level of the game you never, never ever even think about that sort of a ball.

Hoffman has been average and overall. In comparison to the other 3 looks quality. Compare him to any other league fullback and he's below par.

But our defensive problems for me are highlighted due to what's in front of them. We have stuck dogmatically with that pure 433 formation and the front 6 don't offer enough skill, desire technique to play it correctly. What was even worse (without watching the replay) last night we adopted a very narrow front 3 in the second half. Duff and Duga at times were running into the same space at times. Not sure if it was intended or planned but it looked really awkward.

We were always going to be dodgy at the back but we need to set up for our strength and ATM were doing neither. Really don't like what's happening we going backwards fast.

[Kiro Kompiro]

@ Jovan.

 

 I feel sorry for Ramsay.  He is a fish out of water as a LB.

 

Kisnorbo is not a ball playing center back.  He is a clear the crosses, block the shot, compete physically with the a big number 9 CB.

 

Weillart had  a brain snap.  Our back four NEVER play across the back like that.  Its usually back to Redders, and then long ball to no-one.  Other teams do play across the back four, BUT they look first and the team mates move to create a passing lane.

 

The front always seemed to receove with their back to goals and a defender snapping at their heals.  Thats tough to make a goal scoring opportunity out of.

[jw1739]

But our defensive problems for me are highlighted due to what's in front of them. We have stuck dogmatically with that pure 433 formation and the front 6 don't offer enough skill, desire technique to play it correctly. What was even worse (without watching the replay) last night we adopted a very narrow front 3 in the second half. Duff and Duga at times were running into the same space at times. Not sure if it was intended or planned but it looked really awkward.

 

I've put this down to the fact that they are playing on their "wrong" wing. They therefore both tend to drift into the middle. Instinct and very hard to get yourself out of it.

[Shahanga]

JVS said in the presser that playing narrower in the 2nd half was tactical.

To be fair I thought we out played them in that half in all areas (except fuck ups).

[silva10]

It would be interesting to know what discussions went on in pre-season with the Melbourne and CFG management

 

When players like Villa, Duff, Koren and Lampard were being suggested,  was Didluca and JVS staring with their eyes wide open or did they emphasise our defensive woes.

 

If I was JVS i would be saying we need to strengthen from the back. If they did and CFG decided against it then I would have some sympathy for the current management. However, it is something I would like to know.

[Kiro Kompiro]

Knowing Munn and JD history, they probably wet their pants when they were told CFG are looking at Duffa Villa and Lampard.  Munn perpetuated a rumour we were getting Beckham when it was NEVER EVER a possibility.

[Murfy1]

Awesome analysis:

 

PROBLEMS AT THE BACK: MELBOURNE CITY 1-2 SYDNEY FC

 

November 25, 24014

 

Kate Cohen

 

 

Just seven games into the new season, bookmakers’ favourites Melbourne City find themselves 12 points off the top of the table. Their 2-1 loss to Sydney FC on Saturday night took City’s total to 10 points dropped at home this season and coach John van’t Schip was left to rue yet more lapses in concentration.

 

“We were too spread out,” said van’t Schip when asked what his side’s defensive problems were. “We ask for our fullbacks to attack, but not both of them [at the same time], so one of the fullbacks has to come inside but that was not the case a few times.”

 

The fullbacks perform an important role for City when they are going forward and their player rotation when in possession allows them to push high up the park. Importantly, the fullbacks vary their position depending on which side of the pitch the ball is on. If possession is on the left side of the field, the left fullback will push forward but the right fullback will tuck in to ensure City are not too open should possession be lost.

 

City’s player rotation when playing out from the back

 

The easiest way to explain City’s player rotation is to first demonstrate how it works away in theory. When the ball is with the goalkeeper, Andrew Redmayne, City’s centre backs split to create angles to receive possession. In midfield, Erik Paartalu, the No.6, comes towards the ball to present another option for the ball carrier.

If the ball is played to the right centre back, the next phase of City’s player rotation begins. This is where the fullback’s positioning becomes important. City want to get their fullbacks high up the pitch, so to facilitate this, a central midfielder will move into a deep, wide position, freeing up the fullback to push high up the pitch.

 

While this rotation occurs on one side of the pitch, the opposite fullback will tuck in closer to the centre backs to ensure City are not too open for a counter attack should possession be lost.

 

Example One

 

As the ball moved towards the left side of the pitch, central midfielder Massimo Murdocca dropped back into a deep, left sided position which allowed left fullback Iain Ramsay (circled) to advance high up the pitch.

 

On the opposite flank, right fullback Ross Archibald tucked in to ensure City were not too open in possession.

 

Example Two

 

This second example highlights the importance of the opposite fullback tucking in.

As the ball moved to the left side of the pitch, midfielder Aaron Mooy dropped into a deep left position to allow Ramsay to push high up the pitch. On the opposite flank, fullback Jason Hoffman tucked in. In this example, central defender Patrick Kisnorbo lost possession.

 

But because Hoffman had already started tucking in, when possession was turned over, he was able to sprint back and get back in shape within seconds.

 

This prevented any potential Newcastle counter attacks in behind the City defence.

 

 

Costly errors versus Sydney FC

 

In the opening 20 minutes of City’s loss to Sydney FC, there were six separate instances where City’s fullbacks either advanced up the pitch at the same time or where one moved forward when the ball was on the other side of the pitch. There was a further example of this, both fullbacks high up the park, which lead to a 1v1 situation for Ali Abbas in the 39th minute. These errors, or lapses in concentration and structure, proved to be costly and played a role in Sydney FC’s first goal.

 

Example One

 

From a throw in on the right side, Ramsay advanced high up the pitch, anticipating a switch of play

 

But when possession was lost in the middle of the park, Ramsay was out of position and Sydney’s right winger Bernie Ibini ran in behind City’s defence as Terry Antonis played a penetrating pass.

 

In contrast to Ramsay’s positioning, here, against Sydney FC in Round 1, opposite fullback Archibald was tucked in close to his central defenders.

 

Example Two

 

From a long ball from the back, both fullbacks are positioned over half way. This example did not lead to a counter attack.

 

Example Three

 

When City lost possession in the final third, both fullbacks were extremely high up the pitch. Sydney were able to counter attack through Bernie Ibini

 

As Ibini carried the ball over halfway, striker Marc Janko signalled for the switch of play to left winger Ali Abbas who was in front of the recovering Hoffman and sprinting in behind. Ramsay, not in the shot, was still high up the park as Sydney attacked.

 

Example Four

 

When possession was on the right side of the pitch, Iain Ramsay (circled, far side) was positioned over halfway.

 

When possession was lost in the middle of the park, Ramsay was therefore out of position and Ibini raced in behind City’s defence.

 

Antonis played another penetrating pass in behind City’s defence and Ibini beat the offside trap, advancing into the box until Ramsay made a last ditch sliding tackle.

 

Example Five

 

Both fullbacks were again high up the park as City entered the final third. But David Williams through ball was claimed by goalkeeper Vedran Janjetovic.

 

Janjetovic then threw the ball out to Ibini quickly, catching Ramsay out of position.

 

Ibini’s early pass in behind to Alex Brosque saw City’s defence again turned around. Andrew Redmayne cleared the danger by racing out of his box.

 

Example Six

 

Even after numerous warnings, both Ramsay and Hoffman (out of shot) advanced high up the pitch at the same time. Once again, when possession was lost, Sydney FC looked to counter attack into these wide areas.

 

Ali Abbas latched onto Antonis’s through ball and ran 1-on-1 with Redmayne, who saved his side from going two goals behind.

 

Example Seven – Sydney’s goal

 

In the build up to Melbourne City conceding their first goal, both fullbacks advanced high up the pitch in transition. When possession was lost in midfield, Ibini dribbled into the space vacated by left back Ramsay, before crossing to Janko in the box. 

 

On the opposite flank, five seconds after possession was turned over, right back Hoffman was still 10 metres behind centre back Kisnorbo. When the cross was delivered to the back post, over the head of Kisnorbo and Redmayne who misjudged the cross, Janko was free in space, with Hoffman trailing behind.

 

Contrast Hoffman’s recovery in the instance against Newcastle Jets, again five seconds after possession was turned over. Here, he was able to quickly recover his position next to his centre back, as he was not advancing up the pitch.

 

 

John van’t Schip did not place the blame for Sydney’s first goal solely on the two fullbacks. Possession was lost frequently in the middle of the park while City’s players were opening up, a dangerous situation in any circumstance. Hoffman’s slow recovery at the back post could well have been harmless had a serious of other events not occurred, such as not giving away possession cheaply, preventing the cross from Ibini, Redmayne correctly judging the cross, and Kisnorbo not being put off balance by Janko’s fake towards the front post.

 

But in any case, there were too many instances in the first half of City’s fullbacks advancing high up the pitch in situations which left them open at the back.

 

Sydney FC’s second goal

 

Janko’s second goal was gifted to him after a mistake by Rob Wielaert. The mistake highlighted an interesting point of debate about the value of having a right footer at right centre back and a left footer at left centre back.

 

Wielaert, playing at left centre back, is a natural right footer. He played the opening four rounds of the season at right centre back with Patrick Kisnorbo, also a right footer, at left centre back. Many centre defenders would admit that the change from right centre back to left centre back is not a major switch, but did it play a role in Janko’s second goal?

 

Wielaert’s passing distribution vs. Sydney FC

 

Of the actions involving his feet (i.e. excluding chest, thigh, head etc.), Wielaert received 76% of his passes with his right foot. 90% of his passes with his feet were with his right foot. Because left fullback Iain Ramsay was so advanced with his positioning, when Wielaert received possession, he would often turn back inside onto his right foot and play the ball back into the middle, either forwards or sideways.

 

When he was given time on his right foot, he would look to play long balls over the top – his being the pass which set up Damien Duff in the box which lead to the contentious collision with Janjetovic.

 

In the second half, there were clear instances of Sydney FC attackers forcing Wielaert onto his left foot.

 

Example One

 

Wielaert advanced with the ball as Alex Brosque arced his run, forcing the defender onto his weaker left foot.

 

With Iain Ramsay positioned high up the pitch, the angle was tight to receive possession so Wielaert, under pressure from Brosque, passed into a crowded central area with his left foot and lost possession.

 

Example Two

 

Just a minute later, Brosque again tried to forced Wielaert onto his left foot by arcing his run when applying pressure.

 

But on this occasion, with Ramsay again high up the pitch and perhaps with the last turnover fresh in his mind, Wielaert turned back inside and passed across goal to Erik Paartalu.

 

Did Wielaert’s preference to come back inside and pass with his right foot, coupled with Ramsay’s advanced positioning on the left, make it easier for opponents to set a trap when pressing the left centre back?

 

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/problems-at-the-back-melbourne-city-1-2-sydney-fc/

[silva10]

Very interesting Murfy. Which begs the question why wasn't JVS up on his feet giving instructions out for the full backs to do as they were told?

 

If the plan was for one full back to stay deep whilst the other attacked then that could have been easily remedied.

[NewConvert]

Well this article, at least for me, clears Ramsay of any wrong doing for the goals conceded. Ramsay followed game plan others didn't.

[jw1739]

Murf, thanks for the work you've put in to post this. Just hardens my view that while we continue to try to use this defensive formation we will continue to struggle to win matches. Even with the best of players it is hard enough to implement and to maintain concentration for the full 95 minutes, and with our current back four it's nigh on impossible.

 

Quite simply, it's a flawed strategy for the cattle we have.

 

Also hardens my criticism of going into the season with a surfeit of midfielders and an undermanned defence. What on earth was the football department thinking.

[Jovan]

Question I would pose is that this 4 3 3 system which we have tried to play since inception and failed miserably. Has it been used anywhere else successfully over a long sustained period?

I think in theory its the perfect and most attractive way to play but I think it doesn't work. Happy to be proven wrong.

[strider]

Question I would pose is that this 4 3 3 system which we have tried to play since inception and failed miserably. Has it been used anywhere else successfully over a long sustained period?

I think in theory its the perfect and most attractive way to play but I think it doesn't work. Happy to be proven wrong.

It's really only effective if you can hold the ball in the attacking half and making use of the wingers properly (usually this means the wingers transition into "second" strikers as the LB and RB get into classic wide-midfield positions). You see this a lot in modern Football with the likes of Bayern and Real to name a few. One weakness of this is that you're prone to a counter attack (better teams have quicker CBs so it's *usually* not much of an issue).

We don't have intellectually capable fullbacks to play as wingers going forward. Ramsey does this on occasion but his distribution is useless more often than not. Hoffman however did this well against Sydney IMO, hence why Duff made some good runs inside but dumb cunts like Brown didn't pick up the run and distribute.

A good example is Marcelo, bloke is a LB by trade but gets himself forward so much so he scores on occasion and provides great assists.

No A-League time has the quality to do this for a full 90. Our last few minutes against Sydney was actually decent in terms of playing the modern 433, stretching the defense by constantly switching.

Tldr we don't (and probably never will) have fullbacks and wingers that can properly adapt to the modern pressing and holding 433. Should go for a 451, 442 or even 352. We have pace up front so clog midfield and counter. We're fucking great on the counter (see: vs brisbane)

[belaguttman]

Question I would pose is that this 4 3 3 system which we have tried to play since inception and failed miserably. Has it been used anywhere else successfully over a long sustained period?

I think in theory its the perfect and most attractive way to play but I think it doesn't work. Happy to be proven wrong.

Yes, 4-3-3 has been successfully used by many teams. The issue is not 4-3-3, that is a static nominal formation, it's more about the role of each player within that formation, the latitude for movement each player is given in their position, movement off the ball and the quality of execution of the game plan. The formation itself is often different in attacking and defending phases of the game.

[Red or Dead]

What I don't understand is that we're down 2-0 and JvS takes off Dugandzic for Marino in the 77th!

What he should've done (in my humble opinion) is take off Ramsay (or Wieleart since he doesn't have a left foot) for Marino and play with 3 at the back.

 

When you're down 2-0 with 13 mins to go...what's the point of taking off one of your in-form attackers?

[HEARTinator]

What I don't understand is that we're down 2-0 and JvS takes off Dugandzic for Marino in the 77th!

What he should've done (in my humble opinion) is take off Ramsay (or Wieleart since he doesn't have a left foot) for Marino and play with 3 at the back.

 

When you're down 2-0 with 13 mins to go...what's the point of taking off one of your in-form attackers?

The Wielaert 'pass' to Janko was with his right foot and he even looked up just before passing so who knows what happened at that moment  - maybe our sea of light blue City shirts in the crowd made Janko look invisible to Robby ??? Robby wasn't under tremendous pressure at that the moment either FFS. That stuff up pretty much sums up our club and where we are at ATM. Hoping we smash the Nux tho' 

[Luke]

What I don't understand is that we're down 2-0 and JvS takes off Dugandzic for Marino in the 77th!

What he should've done (in my humble opinion) is take off Ramsay (or Wieleart since he doesn't have a left foot) for Marino and play with 3 at the back.

 

When you're down 2-0 with 13 mins to go...what's the point of taking off one of your in-form attackers?

 

 

Not wanting to lose 3-0 presumably, Jvs does tend to show trepidation 

[strider]

JVS is a fkn noob. Only going backwards with this cunt as a manager, too content with being a mid table (at best) team

[Kiro Kompiro]

Can the above analysis be cc'ed to van Schipp?

[Tesla]

Can the above analysis be cc'ed to van Schipp?

You do realise that, as bad as JVS is, his own analysis would be 10 times better than the above?

[AyeCee]

 

Can the above analysis be cc'ed to van Schipp?

You do realise that, as bad as JVS is, his own analysis would be 10 times better than the above?

 

Rofl, what do you mean, it was a great article coz it picked up on all the more subtle things during the game that only a true purist like myself could pick up!

 

[Tonyboozeadams]

Bloody hell. Seeing pics of ramsey caught that high up the pitch was tough to see

[gunheart]

Poor Ramsay!

[Thrillhouse]

defensive problems on show atm

[sheepdog]

Kisnorbo playing sweeper in 18yd box. Nice one.

[fiji19]

Would sign up Corey Brown for a left back

[Parrot]

Ramsay is NOT a DEFENDER.

[mus-28]

Ramsay is NOT a DEFENDER FOOTBALLER.