MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Agree with most of that, Hersi just came back to starting 11 from 5 weeks out... Mascherano runs the most creative midfield in the world in Barcelona as a DM, does that make him a creative player? No because his not? He can run all day, defend all day and make a pass yes. Murdoca love him yes, but his not creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Billy this is the best example possible! Lampard and Gerrad are great players in passing, shooting ect. YaYa toure and Pirlo can do the exact same, BUT are naturally creative players! Get my point? For Murdoca to make a creative play he had to try his heart out, for Harry to make a creative play, it's easy because his naturally creative ( you can't coach or grow into it, your born with it) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I'm not going to enter the argument over an individual player. Because everyone has their opinions. But the essence of "creativity" is newness and value - that is a creative person is one who takes the same inputs as others, sees something in them that others do not, and produces something new and valuable out of them whereas the others do not. Â A creative person is not necessarily one who works hard and does routine things well; the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive but frequently are. Â Heart's problems and position on the ladder are not due to the the qualities of the individual players, and especially are not due to the perceived failings of certain players. As has been said many times, the squad looks good on paper. The problem is that the players function poorly as a team. And that is the result of poor management. Â In fact, the place where we need the creativity most is in management. A creative manager would take this club perhaps not to a Premiership, but certainly to a respectable position on the ladder. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I'm not going to enter the argument over an individual player. Because everyone has their opinions. But the essence of "creativity" is newness and value - that is a creative person is one who takes the same inputs as others, sees something in them that others do not, and produces something new and valuable out of them whereas the others do not. A creative person is not necessarily one who works hard and does routine things well; the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive but frequently are. Heart's problems and position on the ladder are not due to the the qualities of the individual players, and especially are not due to the perceived failings of certain players. As has been said many times, the squad looks good on paper. The problem is that the players function poorly as a team. And that is the result of poor management. In fact, the place where we need the creativity most is in management. A creative manager would take this club perhaps not to a Premiership, but certainly to a respectable position on the ladder. That, in the scheme of things, is really the underlying problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Totally agree with everything you said jw. The simple question which was first made was is Mossimo Murdoca a creative player. Forget about positions and anything els, I'm asking as an individual football player. Jw1739 yes or no answer, is he a creative player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Â Â In fact, the place where we need the creativity most is in management. A creative manager would take this club perhaps not to a Premiership, but certainly to a respectable position on the ladder. This 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Cain Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 You need to clearly define what you mean by "creative" to even begin this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 You need to clearly define what you mean by "creative" to even begin this discussion. I thought I did that.  'But the essence of "creativity" is newness and value - that is a creative person is one who takes the same inputs as others, sees something in them that others do not, and produces something new and valuable out of them whereas the others do not.' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 But Murdocca isn't the reason. He was a solid part of a very successful and 'creative' roar team. Â I've been waiting for that old chestnut to be dropped. Where do I even begin? Roar was a good team with a good set-up. They won back-to-back championships. Before that they weren't as good. Murdocca had played in every season since their inaugural one. In 162 matches, he had 11 assists. Â Yes, 11 in 162 appearances, majority of which he started. So what? He is a DM, not an AM. Right, but now you know just what kind of midfielder he is. Now, nobody is saying that he cannot pass forward or 'create' a chance. Anyone can. Like someone said above, it is dependent on a number of factors, one of which is the movement of other players. But at Roar, this bloke was surrounded by quality. In the championship seasons, he had Paartalu/McKay. And in front of him? No less than Sergio Van Dijk, Thomas Broich, Mitch Nichols and then Besart Berisha the following year. Â Saying he was a 'solid part' of Roar is disingenuous. One could be forgiven for drawing the conclusion that he was an integral part. He wasn't. He had the easiest job of simply running and dropping in the hole. I believe he played as a RM for a few matches too. Â Here at Heart, he has been found out. I knew that he would. When we signed him, I really hoped we were going to sign another midfielder that would actually be the link from defence to offence. Someone who could dictate the tempo and break down defences. We all know the story of what happened to Engelaar... Â I have no doubt that he would be a solid complimentary player to another midfielder. We all saw it up in Brisbane. But Roar aren't disappointed that he went to Heart, no way in hell. If they are crying about it, I'm sure they are tears of joy. It's a little hard to see what's going on on the top of the ladder from down here. Roar have a ruthless win-at-all-costs mentality. Release a DM in Murdocca, develop Brattan and bring McKay back. Lose Nichols, bring in Liam Miller. There is the ingredient for success. Â You see, we have two pedestrian midfielders in our partnership. There is no main man. We can blather on about how Murdocca is just unlucky and that it is everyone else's fault. Sorry. I've heard it all before. Replace him or Mig with Gerhardt and play Kalmar/Kewell as the number 10 and Mifsud & Mebrahtu as the two forwards. Â A creative player CREATES regardless of the movement of other players. Our forwards have enough experience (despite shit tactical advice from the boss) to move into good positions. I see it a fair bit. It is the transition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Totally agree with everything you said jw. The simple question which was first made was is Mossimo Murdoca a creative player. Forget about positions and anything els, I'm asking as an individual football player. Jw1739 yes or no answer, is he a creative player? Overall I would have rated Mass as a hard-working player best suited to doing the routine things well, and best able to display those qualities in a team that kept the ball on the deck playing a crisp 10-20m interpassing game. I guess that's a "no." Mass is currently a victim of Aloisi's lack of management ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 But Murdocca isn't the reason. He was a solid part of a very successful and 'creative' roar team. Â I've been waiting for that old chestnut to be dropped. Where do I even begin? Roar was a good team with a good set-up. They won back-to-back championships. Before that they weren't as good. Murdocca had played in every season since their inaugural one. In 162 matches, he had 11 assists. Â Yes, 11 in 162 appearances, majority of which he started. So what? He is a DM, not an AM. Right, but now you know just what kind of midfielder he is. Now, nobody is saying that he cannot pass forward or 'create' a chance. Anyone can. Like someone said above, it is dependent on a number of factors, one of which is the movement of other players. But at Roar, this bloke was surrounded by quality. In the championship seasons, he had Paartalu/McKay. And in front of him? No less than Sergio Van Dijk, Thomas Broich, Mitch Nichols and then Besart Berisha the following year. Â Saying he was a 'solid part' of Roar is disingenuous. One could be forgiven for drawing the conclusion that he was an integral part. He wasn't. He had the easiest job of simply running and dropping in the hole. I believe he played as a RM for a few matches too. Â Here at Heart, he has been found out. I knew that he would. When we signed him, I really hoped we were going to sign another midfielder that would actually be the link from defence to offence. Someone who could dictate the tempo and break down defences. We all know the story of what happened to Engelaar... Â I have no doubt that he would be a solid complimentary player to another midfielder. We all saw it up in Brisbane. But Roar aren't disappointed that he went to Heart, no way in hell. If they are crying about it, I'm sure they are tears of joy. It's a little hard to see what's going on on the top of the ladder from down here. Roar have a ruthless win-at-all-costs mentality. Release a DM in Murdocca, develop Brattan and bring McKay back. Lose Nichols, bring in Liam Miller. There is the ingredient for success. Â You see, we have two pedestrian midfielders in our partnership. There is no main man. We can blather on about how Murdocca is just unlucky and that it is everyone else's fault. Sorry. I've heard it all before. Replace him or Mig with Gerhardt and play Kalmar/Kewell as the number 10 and Mifsud & Mebrahtu as the two forwards. Â A creative player CREATES regardless of the movement of other players. Our forwards have enough experience (despite shit tactical advice from the boss) to move into good positions. I see it a fair bit. It is the transition. Gerhardt would be a mistake in midfield, plain and simple he's not good enough on the ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony999 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Massimo Murdocca is the Gennaro Gattuso in football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I don't know if anyone has read 'The Numbers Game', another soccer metrics book like Soccernomics that extends our thinking about football further than that helpful book. In this book they make a good case that football is a 'weakest link game' rather than a 'strongest link' game. What they show is that team function improves more but improving the weakest player in the team than it does by taking the 'glittering marquee' player approach. Mass is far from our weakest player, we can debate what sort of player he is, but replacing him with a star creative player will give us less value than replacing our weakest link. Any guess where our weakest link is? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japiedog Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I don't know if anyone has read 'The Numbers Game', another soccer metrics book like Soccernomics that extends our thinking about football further than that helpful book. In this book they make a good case that football is a 'weakest link game' rather than a 'strongest link' game. What they show is that team function improves more but improving the weakest player in the team than it does by taking the 'glittering marquee' player approach. Mass is far from our weakest player, we can debate what sort of player he is, but replacing him with a star creative player will give us less value than replacing our weakest link. Any guess where our weakest link is? where do you want to start !!!!!! what's the old saying a fish rots from its head first ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I don't know if anyone has read 'The Numbers Game', another soccer metrics book like Soccernomics that extends our thinking about football further than that helpful book. In this book they make a good case that football is a 'weakest link game' rather than a 'strongest link' game. What they show is that team function improves more but improving the weakest player in the team than it does by taking the 'glittering marquee' player approach. Mass is far from our weakest player, we can debate what sort of player he is, but replacing him with a star creative player will give us less value than replacing our weakest link. Any guess where our weakest link is? It's the two blokes in the Bunnings chairs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I don't know if anyone has read 'The Numbers Game', another soccer metrics book like Soccernomics that extends our thinking about football further than that helpful book. In this book they make a good case that football is a 'weakest link game' rather than a 'strongest link' game. What they show is that team function improves more but improving the weakest player in the team than it does by taking the 'glittering marquee' player approach. Mass is far from our weakest player, we can debate what sort of player he is, but replacing him with a star creative player will give us less value than replacing our weakest link. Any guess where our weakest link is? It's the two blokes in the Bunnings chairs. Had to lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexDaGroza Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013   I don't know if anyone has read 'The Numbers Game', another soccer metrics book like Soccernomics that extends our thinking about football further than that helpful book. In this book they make a good case that football is a 'weakest link game' rather than a 'strongest link' game. What they show is that team function improves more but improving the weakest player in the team than it does by taking the 'glittering marquee' player approach. Mass is far from our weakest player, we can debate what sort of player he is, but replacing him with a star creative player will give us less value than replacing our weakest link. Any guess where our weakest link is? It's the two blokes in the Bunnings chairs. Had to lol  Other than them? Its got to be the number 10 Role Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013    I don't know if anyone has read 'The Numbers Game', another soccer metrics book like Soccernomics that extends our thinking about football further than that helpful book. In this book they make a good case that football is a 'weakest link game' rather than a 'strongest link' game. What they show is that team function improves more but improving the weakest player in the team than it does by taking the 'glittering marquee' player approach. Mass is far from our weakest player, we can debate what sort of player he is, but replacing him with a star creative player will give us less value than replacing our weakest link. Any guess where our weakest link is? It's the two blokes in the Bunnings chairs. Had to lol  Other than them? Its got to be the number 10 Role  Agree, and we are relying on a talented but injury prone 34 year old who is probably going to give us 15 games at the most and don't have a backup for this position. I'd rather release Migliorini and/or Germano and sign a good number 10. This should be the first priority for a new coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I keep forgetting that we have Germano. He is the one to play instead of Gerhardt. A good DM with an engine and someone who gets shit done. I'd take Germano over Murdocca every day of the week. I'm expecting a torrent of abuse but Germano was our starting midfielder when we made the finals and is easily a better pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red or Dead Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Murdocca might not seem as a creative player because our wonderful manager does not know what creativity is! Â This disgusting (and quite terribly executed) counter attacking game plan Aloisi has us playing doesn't allow for any creativity so when Murdocca gets the ball, there's no one running around, getting into good positions to receive that 'creative' ball from Murdocca (even if he is just a defensive midfielder). Â Aloisi is the problem. Kick the ball long to our 5"4' striker and hope he can jump higher than Topor-Stanley who's already a foot taller than him. You saw when Harry Kewell came on Murdocca had someone to pass the ball to as opposed to kicking it long to a statue in Golgol! Â ALOISI = PROBLEM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Nah, Mifsud's problem is his foot wear, long balls are no problem if he goes on the field with these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofhearts Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Rofl unbelievable that Murdocca is getting slammed. I must be watching a different heart game to some of the people on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 A fit Germano over a fit Murdocca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD. Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 A fit Germano over a fit Murdocca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Look it's easy to bag him out, because we've never really had him fully fit... The reason I'd go Germano is because his creative ability is much higher than Murdocca. He had 30 goal attempts in less than 16 games in his first season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofhearts Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Look it's easy to bag him out, because we've never really had him fully fit... The reason I'd go Germano is because his creative ability is much higher than Murdocca. He had 30 goal attempts in less than 16 games in his first season. Hey guys, i'm getting the vibe this guy doesn't like murdocca, am i the only one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardRed Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Massimo Murdocca is the Gennaro Gattuso in football Oh no he is not .... I hate that cheating Gattuso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardRed Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Q, Why are you going to watch Visitors MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofhearts Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013  Q, Why are you going to watch Visitors MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON  Because he's a flog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD. Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited)   Q, Why are you going to watch Visitors MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON  Because he's a flog  Because he's MUTD/MVC/ESSNDON Edited December 10, 2013 by Demon_Heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Mrs is victory member, her brother has trials Friday night so I'm taking his membership. It's a win win situation, if Vic wins I watch good football if they loose I'd be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartinHobart Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Mrs is victory member, her brother has trials Friday night so I'm taking his membership. It's a win win situation, if Vic wins I watch good football if they loose I'd be happy. You, yes you have a Mrs...??? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Been engaged for a year... Darby's I sit yarra side with my dad and sisters and she sits City end with her brothers. It's fkn intense after the games, arguments galor!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartinHobart Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 She's obviously not an English teacher. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 LMFAO she's a year nine maths and science teacher!!! Lol close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embee Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 This thread is hillarious! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTD/MLBHRT/ESSNDON Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Not bad for a Tuesday ey..? Lol it's been going sick since 7.30am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schrecky Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Â "You can't even beat us and were SHIT" Chant of the night and yes made it back to city in one piece. Few hairy moments but all good. Huge appearance from the travelling supporters well done lads Certainly was the best of a number Sheepdog haha !!!! Mind u the chant about Wanderers cheering about hitting the post was gold. Still laughing at the fact even the Wanderers were cheering us on. Â My kids are still singing both them chants - Quality work , We walked back to the station with Redders mum and sister who kept a low profile as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyheart Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Mrs is victory member, her brother has trials Friday night so I'm taking his membership. It's a win win situation, if Vic wins I watch good football if they loose I'd be happy.You, yes you have a Mrs...???You're old enough to be engaged?!? Mind blown. Edited December 10, 2013 by billyheart 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEARTinator Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 This is the kind of degenerative thread you get when the team on the pitch is fooken abysmal LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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