Melbourne Heart, what do we stand for?

[AzureKingfisher]

Hey guys, after watching every heart game this season and last with an ever increasing level of frustration and often anger, I’d like to initiate a broad discussion on the direction of the club as well as its current state as a whole. None of what I say will be particularly new, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

 

One of the most often-touted (and perhaps slightly lazy, though not entirely incorrect) media lines is that Melbourne Heart no longer stands for anything. Why support Heart when there is a seemingly superior alternative in every way in the shape of the Victory? This question is admittedly becoming more and more difficult to answer. Apart from the derbies, it almost seems like Heart has no special purpose distinct from the more established Victory. What needs to happen?

 

Well, I don’t buy any of the ‘distinct’ locality (i.e. West Melbourne Heart) or rebranding talk that is happening in the media. I put nearly all of the success by the Wanderers down to their success on the pitch. Had they performed like Heart last season, I doubt they would have done much better than us.

 

But success on the pitch isn’t something that can be guaranteed. There are 10 teams in the league, all of whom rightly believe they have a realistic chance of making the top 4 or even winning the league in the upcoming seasons. Yet there are still a number of things we could do to give us a clear direction as a club, give us a true identity and something to be proud of.

In demonstration of this point, I’m going to bring up my English team, Southampton, who are doing particularly well at the moment. Just 3 years ago, they were in League 1, with arguably fewer resources than Heart have now. Yes, they were taken over by a wealthy owner and have made some expensive signings. And of course they are operating at a much higher level than the a-league. But I believe their success is founded on principles that should point the way forward for any club. Not only are they attractive, sustainable principles that everyone would love to get behind; they tend to lead to success too!  

 

1.       A commitment to youth, with investment in the youth academy. This should be clearly stated by the board as a chief purpose of the club, to develop future Socceroos. This was one of the principles upon which the club was founded. What’s happened with this? Engelaar, Mifsud, Kewell, Wielhardt, Kisnorbo are perhaps our most frequently mentioned signings of the summer. They’re all over 30. While they aren’t all bad signings, what will they offer us in the long-term? Wielhardt is clearly after his last paycheque judging by recent performances (and who can blame him, at 34?), while Kewell and Kisnorbo have a demonstrable record of injury problems. And why has the at best inconsistent and at worst calamitous Gerhardt been persisted with at the expense of Vrankovic? He can hardly do worse. Mauk and Retre (the latter of whom will probably be dumped with the return of Migliorini, who hasn’t contributed much) should soon form a core part of the first team (judging by what we’ve seen, they’re both talented players).

 

I’d rather see the wages of Engelaar, good though he may be, invested in staff for the youth academy with a clear path through to the first team for youngsters who work hard and show particular promise. It’s not that fanciful. At Southampton, look at Luke Shaw, James Ward-Prowse, Morgan Schneiderlin, Calum Chambers, Adam Lallana; all highly performing premiership players, all of whom were with the club when they were in League 1, pushing for first team spots. They don’t even need to be nearly as good at Heart to succeed in the A-league, though they may become future Socceroos, who knows?

 

2.       Attractive and technically accomplished football. Again to be a prerequisite for the setup at the club. Not just from top to bottom, but from bottom to top. The youth teams at Heart should be committed to, even at the expense of winning, forging a style that encourages the development of technically capable, intelligent, attacking, vibrant footballers who will excite crowds when they make it through to the first team. You’ll be surprised at how quickly gifted youngsters will be ready to step up at a-league level – look at Taggart, Rojas, Behich (even if he is low on confidence atm), Kruse, Langerak, Ryan, Rogic, Oar – the list goes on. It doesn’t have to be 4-3-3, but it should be a style where the ball is played on the deck, with a focus on positive play: positive use of possession, speed of movement etc. Look at Swansea and Southampton in the premiership, who have modelled their academies on that of Barcelona. There’s no reason why we aren’t capable of doing the same. We don’t ever have to be as good as those clubs to leave a strong legacy of fantastic Australian players.

 

3.       Staff capable of implementing the above. Aloisi isn’t making the cut with the long balls to Mifsud and Mebrahtu. None of the players will ever become better footballers playing that style. We need to stop necessarily picking up players and coaches for their names and start directing our efforts towards staff with a true sense of vision and direction for good and winning football.

 

4.       Ambition. The a-league is an even competition. No manager should be pleased with 3-0 defeats, no matter how ‘unlucky’ the results are. Nobody from the Heart has talked up our title chances. They don’t even need to believe in a title push for this season, but at least have the vision for it in the future. There’s this increasingly under-dog and ‘small club’ feeling about Heart, which is gradually turning to a basement-club-fodder identity.

 

5.       Distinguish ourselves from Victory. The name Victory itself already has a sense of arrogance, and with the highly-disliked Muscat at the helm, we have plenty to position ourselves against. With Ange gone, will can regain the attractive football, commitment to youth and family club mould.

 

6.       Play with Heart. Stop focusing so pragmatically on ‘counter-attacking’ and defending sturdily to grind out results, and start pleasing the supporters with ambition, drive, attacking play, disregarding results for the time being. If we do this, the results will come very quickly! 

[morphine]

Point 6 - play with heart - is in direct contradiction to all of your other points about playing pretty football, in my opinion. You said it yourself 'at the expense of results' in the junior ranks we need to play pretty football.

 

We would be playing with heart if we were winning and grinding out 1-0 results.

 

Anyway, carry on.

[hedaik]

'Standing for something' is probably one of my most hated cliches of sport.

 

Don't really care what a club 'stands for'. I just wanna watch a winning team and drink with a bunch of good blokes at the game.

[kingofhearts]

'Standing for something' is probably one of my most hated cliches of sport.

 

Don't really care what a club 'stands for'. I just wanna watch a winning team and drink with a bunch of good blokes at the game.

Fucken oath. Give this man a medal.

[Caddy]

Honestly I'm really sick of hearing (from mainly Victory supporters) about what do we stand for and we lack identity and all this crap.

We shouldn't have to justify our existence to anyone. We are just a football club going through a very bad spell but nothing is dire.

Kudos to your post, though.

[AzureKingfisher]

'Standing for something' is probably one of my most hated cliches of sport.

Don't really care what a club 'stands for'. I just wanna watch a winning team and drink with a bunch of good blokes at the game.

It's not really relevant to us (as many of us are members and will come to games regardless of how we are playing, backing the team) but it's highly relevant to getting more fans on board. I know at least some people care about this (judging by the attendances and membership threads!)

The "stand for" thing admittedly annoys me too; but it's nevertheless very important to clubs that are still establishing themselves.

I'm always going to believe attractive football is so because it brings flair, excitement, goals and ultimately wins. But at the youth level the technical development of players is much more important than getting wins, in my view.

Look at recent champions central coast and brisbane roar as testament to the ability of teams to play pretty football and win!

[HEARTinator]

I'm really just interested in how and when we're going to win silverware. Everyone can claim to want to play attractive football, to engage with the community, etc, etc but how many clubs get to win silverware? Only people talking about this are HeartFC haters IMO

Edited November 20, 2013 by HEARTinator

[belaguttman]

Agree with all your points apart from 5. We need to stop identifying ourselves as 'being different from'. There are many things to admire in MV, many that we want to do differently, the same as every other team, but what we really want is to be ourselves. How alike MV and how different that makes us is unimportant as long as we are successful and stick to our core values

[Shahanga]

re Point 1 - The club announced earlier in the year that they were starting an academy, using the principles of Cruyff, who heavily influenced the one at Barcelona.

 

Re the annoying "what do we stand for" question.

 

I'd like to ask what do Victory stand for?  The only consistency I've seen from them is fans so ignorant the rest of the football nation knowingly refers to them as "tards".   

[Cinnamon]

I agree that the "what do we stand for?" issue is overblown. I joined heart because of the Dutch link (my heritage) and that is sure not what we stood for. I stay because of you lot and my vested interest in seeing this club achieve success.

What does any AFL club stand for or a 20/20 club for that matter? That's not why people start following a club in my opinion, often it can be quite an innocuous reason but essentially success is the biggest draw card.

Why do people stay? That can be different all together

Edited November 20, 2013 by Cinnamon

[mulhollanddrive]

Great post, we threw everything out the moment JVS left as coach.

[cadete]

I agree that the "what do we stand for?" issue is overblown. I joined heart because of the Dutch link (my heritage) and that is sure not what we stood for. I stay because of you lot and my vested interest in seeing this club achieve success.

What does any AFL club stand for or a 20/20 club for that matter? That's not why people start following a club in my opinion, often it can be quite an innocuous reason but essentially success is the biggest draw card.

Why do people stay? That can be different all together

Please dont put the world's oldest football clubs on the same level of meaning as 20/20.

[Cinnamon]

I agree that the "what do we stand for?" issue is overblown. I joined heart because of the Dutch link (my heritage) and that is sure not what we stood for. I stay because of you lot and my vested interest in seeing this club achieve success.

What does any AFL club stand for or a 20/20 club for that matter? That's not why people start following a club in my opinion, often it can be quite an innocuous reason but essentially success is the biggest draw card.

Why do people stay? That can be different all together

Please dont put the world's oldest football clubs on the same level of meaning as 20/20.

I'm not but, the relevance of what a club stands for and why people decide to follow a club aren't closely linked in most cases in my opinion, no matter what sport.

Why did I start following the Demons as a kid? I can't remember, no one I knew followed them and I sure as hell didn't know what they stood for, I was in kinder.

[Peter]

Of course we do things differently. Other teams look to build winning successful clubs, and we are Melbourne Heart.

 

P.s. Nice post AzureKingfisher. Odd that your name came up. I was cleaning out my fishpond today and a Kookaburra flew down one foot away from me and cut one of my shubunkin's in two. Not really relevant to the conversation though. Cheeky thing.

[Murfy1]

This issue is incredibly overblown. Nonetheless, IMO, Melbourne Heart is about:

 

- Melbourne

- A pro-active/attacking style of football (that's at least brave and attacking, if not good at passing and possession)

- Youth development

- Community/grassroots engagement

 

But above all we're a football club. We're about playing good football and getting good results. 

 

I could elaborate more, and explain how highly we've lived up to some points, and where we've stuffed up a bit on others, but I hate navel-gazing and quite simply Heart doesn't have to justify itself to others.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Murfy1

[strider]

WHO DO WE STAND FOR?

 

WE STAND FOR WANDE- i mean, errrr nevermind

[AyeCee]

Great post, we threw everything out the moment JVS left as coach.

This is why I really don't see this fascination with 'identity'. Basically, you can claim to have 'pillars of identity', or some similar shite, but this all gets thrown out as soon as the management changes. And this happens all the time in modern football.

JVS may have provided these ideas, but ultimately, we were shit. Now we've moved on to another shit coach. I wonder what people would be saying if JA had actually come good, winning us the league, despite seemingly 'throwing away our philosophy'?

As shananga says, what does the other team stand for? What do any of the other clubs stand for? Keep in mind, I'm referring to things that have existed since the start of the league, not in the past three seasons.

It's the A-league for fucks sake, no club in it can pick and choose from anywhere in the world to the same level that clubs like barcelona can. That's why it's pointless using things such as a playing style to identify a club, there simply isn't enough quality players and coaches within our reach to do this year after year.

Other than representing the city (which I believe should be the most prided thing in a club), no club in the league can maintain an identity for longer than a few seasons. It's a shame that we have to compete against another club for the identity of the city, but that's how it is. It'll just take time.

[Petercrouch]

How does one have an identity in modern football anyway?

[scouse_roar]

It really is a shame Aloisi has laid waste to your point of difference with Victory by playing such an awful, ugly brand of Stoke-style hoofball. Shouldn't managers be signed to fit the overarching philosophy? You're at risk of becoming Sydney FC - such a confused mess with instability the only constant on and off the pitch.

Keeping in mind I am not fussed whether you fix it or not, just a shame to see any club that isn't Sydney follow their lead.

[Petercrouch]

It really is a shame Aloisi has laid waste to your point of difference with Victory by playing such an awful, ugly brand of Stoke-style hoofball. Shouldn't managers be signed to fit the overarching philosophy? You're at risk of becoming Sydney FC - such a confused mess with instability the only constant on and off the pitch.

Keeping in mind I am not fussed whether you fix it or not, just a shame to see any club that isn't Sydney follow their lead.

Please end yourself for the good of the footballing community. If you're not fussed, why do you go to the effort of posting on our forum. Fuck off you northern monkey...

Regards,

PeterCrouch

[theresonlyonebzamora]

@ scouse, What do Victory stand for? What do you stand for? What do Liverpool stand for?

[belaguttman]

It really is a shame Aloisi has laid waste to your point of difference with Victory by playing such an awful, ugly brand of Stoke-style hoofball. Shouldn't managers be signed to fit the overarching philosophy? You're at risk of becoming Sydney FC - such a confused mess with instability the only constant on and off the pitch.

Keeping in mind I am not fussed whether you fix it or not, just a shame to see any club that isn't Sydney follow their lead.

Yes, that's what we've all been banging on about on this forum in the last year

[scouse_roar]

It really is a shame Aloisi has laid waste to your point of difference with Victory by playing such an awful, ugly brand of Stoke-style hoofball. Shouldn't managers be signed to fit the overarching philosophy? You're at risk of becoming Sydney FC - such a confused mess with instability the only constant on and off the pitch.

Keeping in mind I am not fussed whether you fix it or not, just a shame to see any club that isn't Sydney follow their lead.

Please end yourself for the good of the footballing community. If you're not fussed, why do you go to the effort of posting on our forum. Fuck off you northern monkey...

Regards,

PeterCrouch

Typing words is not effort.

It's just a shame to see a club actively destroying itself for no apparent purpose. Even if it didn't have much going for it to begin with. Although I suppose it's almost praiseworthy that you're so committed to being the opposite of Victory you're willing to play shit and lose just when they start playing good stuff and winning....

[Petercrouch]

It really is a shame Aloisi has laid waste to your point of difference with Victory by playing such an awful, ugly brand of Stoke-style hoofball. Shouldn't managers be signed to fit the overarching philosophy? You're at risk of becoming Sydney FC - such a confused mess with instability the only constant on and off the pitch.

Keeping in mind I am not fussed whether you fix it or not, just a shame to see any club that isn't Sydney follow their lead.

Please end yourself for the good of the footballing community. If you're not fussed, why do you go to the effort of posting on our forum. Fuck off you northern monkey...

Regards,

PeterCrouch Typing words is not effort.

It's just a shame to see a club actively destroying itself for no apparent purpose. Even if it didn't have much going for it to begin with. Although I suppose it's almost praiseworthy that you're so committed to being the opposite of Victory you're willing to play shit and lose just when they start playing good stuff and winning....

Yeah, I agree. Supporters behind their club through thick and thin sucks. Maybe we should support Brisbane and then stop when they start playing like shit just like all your fans.

Preach these arguments on your forum if you're that passionate about them as nobody gives a fuck on this one...

[Jestr]

It's bloody football

Unless you're winning, you stand for nothing in the end

Keep loosing and no one will want to associate with the club no matter how many unicorns you use at half time entertainment or how much fairy dust you sprinkle over all the community engagement.

[belaguttman]

 

 

It really is a shame Aloisi has laid waste to your point of difference with Victory by playing such an awful, ugly brand of Stoke-style hoofball. Shouldn't managers be signed to fit the overarching philosophy? You're at risk of becoming Sydney FC - such a confused mess with instability the only constant on and off the pitch.

Keeping in mind I am not fussed whether you fix it or not, just a shame to see any club that isn't Sydney follow their lead.

Please end yourself for the good of the footballing community. If you're not fussed, why do you go to the effort of posting on our forum. Fuck off you northern monkey...

Regards,

PeterCrouch

Typing words is not effort.

It's just a shame to see a club actively destroying itself for no apparent purpose. Even if it didn't have much going for it to begin with. Although I suppose it's almost praiseworthy that you're so committed to being the opposite of Victory you're willing to play shit and lose just when they start playing good stuff and winning....

 

scouse_roar, not sure if you are deliberately trolling but really, we don't care about MV, we are a football franchise like Roar and like MV, what else is our identity about? The reason we are angry is that football franchises are about winning, our franchise doesn't seem interested in winning. You seem to confuse HAL franchises with clubs, they are not clubs, you aren't a member unless you are an investor in the franchise. I would argue that this is one of the things about the HAL that need to change in the future, but in the meantime we all identify with our teams as if they are clubs and expect some degree of return for our emotional investment. 

 

If you look at the Roar franchise, owned by Indonesian businessmen who have made their money from logging, much of it illegal, how does that impact on Roar's identity?

[KSK_47]

 we are a football franchise like Roar and like MV, what else is our identity about?

 

 

Well, not really. We have not had to ask for handouts from the FFA

[cadete]

@ scouse, What do Victory stand for? What do you stand for? What do Liverpool stand for?

You actually posted what does Liverpool stand for?

 

Could you think of a worse example?

 

(And u list Liverpool as one of the 18 teams you support in the UK.)

 

 

 

Liverpool FC stands for the City of Liverpool,

 

A City whose own Unique Nature of Migration has spawned a Civic Pride amongst its PPL that overrides their Nationalistic Pride.

 

All of this is reflected through the Football Club.

Edited November 20, 2013 by cadete

[belaguttman]

 

 we are a football franchise like Roar and like MV, what else is our identity about?

 

 

Well, not really. We have not had to ask for handouts from the FFA

 

yes I suppose that is one thing that distinguishes us, we are one of very few (us, Perth, MV) to have never had financial assistance from FFA.

[AyeCee]

@ scouse, What do Victory stand for? What do you stand for? What do Liverpool stand for?

You actually posted what does Liverpool stand for?

Could you think of a worse example?

(And u list Liverpool as one of the 18 teams you support in the UK.)

Liverpool FC stands for the City of Liverpool,

A City whose own Unique Nature of Migration has spawned a Civic Pride amongst its PPL that overrides their Nationalistic Pride.

All of this is reflected through the Football Club.

Tbf, I think he was trying to reference his user name.

Coincidentally though I'm currently in Liverpool, and the pride you speak of really is obvious. Would love for Melbourne to have the same feel, and for Heart to be a main representation of the city.

[Petercrouch]

It's bloody football

Unless you're winning, you stand for nothing in the end

Keep loosing and no one will want to associate with the club no matter how many unicorns you use at half time entertainment or how much fairy dust you sprinkle over all the community engagement.

Grow up you twerp. It's not about winning... Success is a mere chapter in club history, support is what keeps a club alive whether through thick or thin.

I don't know how many people are with me but providing we get the spoon every year I'd still be there. That's what supporting a club is about... You know the true loyalty in the rough times and savour the moment for the good times... That's what separates us from the mongs...

EDIT: in terms of identity at least

Edited November 20, 2013 by Petercrouch

[KSK_47]

 

 

 we are a football franchise like Roar and like MV, what else is our identity about?

 

 

Well, not really. We have not had to ask for handouts from the FFA

 

yes I suppose that is one thing that distinguishes us, we are one of very few (us, Perth, MV) to have never had financial assistance from FFA.

 

 

MV had their licence paid for them by the FFA. Plus their 5 year exclusivity clause, although not financial was a massive leg up

[Red or Dead]

I thought I use my 1,000th post to say that Melbourne Heart for me stands for the City of Melbourne.

 

Our 'identity' is that we are Melbourne! We represent the football fans of Melbourne! The fact that we were established and still exist means that a big chunk of Melburnians didn't accept Victory as their team, you could say that Victory wasn't in everyone's hearts! There was a need for a second team to represent the rest of the Melbourne community.

 

Just like the City of Melbourne flag which depicts the four main activities of which the economy of the City of Melbourne was built on, Melbourne Heart depicts the heart (and hearts) of Melbourne of which our club was built on.

 

 

 

Melbourne is Red & White! 

[Jestr]

It's bloody football

Unless you're winning, you stand for nothing in the end

Keep loosing and no one will want to associate with the club no matter how many unicorns you use at half time entertainment or how much fairy dust you sprinkle over all the community engagement.

Grow up you twerp. It's not about winning... Success is a mere chapter in club history, support is what keeps a club alive whether through thick or thin.

I don't know how many people are with me but providing we get the spoon every year I'd still be there. That's what supporting a club is about... You know the true loyalty in the rough times and savour the moment for the good times... That's what separates us from the mongs...

EDIT: in terms of identity at least It's called reality of football I'm Australia you ignorant flog ( since we calling each other names)

It isn't Europe with clubs carrying 100+ years of history behind them, ups and downs

My concern is longevity of the club. Our on field record isn't much better then Gold Coast.

Where are they now.

All of us can stand on south-side singing but when the franchise holders start loosing serious money they will walk away.

I'm not supporting smfc like I will never support mv

[n i k o]

I thought I use my 1,000th post to say that Melbourne Heart for me stands for the City of Melbourne.

Our 'identity' is that we are Melbourne! We represent the football fans of Melbourne! The fact that we were established and still exist means that a big chunk of Melburnians didn't accept Victory as their team, you could say that Victory wasn't in everyone's hearts! There was a need for a second team to represent the rest of the Melbourne community.

Just like the City of Melbourne flag which depicts the four main activities of which the economy of the City of Melbourne was built on, Melbourne Heart depicts the heart (and hearts) of Melbourne of which our club was built on.

Melbourne is Red & White!

Should have called ourselves Melbourne City lol Edited November 20, 2013 by n i k o

[belaguttman]

wqe are less successful that GC. They finished third in their first season

[scouse_roar]

All I'm saying is that I (and no doubt you) want you to have a strong identity on the pitch, and a point of difference. The only point of difference at the moment is the club is a shambles from the board to the pitch. The only identity a club gets from persistent failure in this country is the nostalgia you get when you look at a Failed club like GCU or NQF.

That's why it's imperative you shaft John and pressure the board to go back to your original identity, which was that of a youth breeding ground playing football the right way and engaging with the community, not a negative, cynical retirement village.

[billyheart]

'Standing for something' is probably one of my most hated cliches of sport.

Don't really care what a club 'stands for'. I just wanna watch a winning team and drink with a bunch of good blokes at the game.

[belaguttman]

All I'm saying is that I (and no doubt you) want you to have a strong identity on the pitch, and a point of difference. The only point of difference at the moment is the club is a shambles from the board to the pitch. The only identity a club gets from persistent failure in this country is the nostalgia you get when you look at a Failed club like GCU or NQF.

That's why it's imperative you shaft John and pressure the board to go back to your original identity, which was that of a youth breeding ground playing football the right way and engaging with the community, not a negative, cynical retirement village.

you won't get any argument from us on that last point in this forum. We want an identity as a winning team, we don't care about the other Melbourne club and we (the supporters)  know who we are.

Edited November 20, 2013 by belaguttman

[schrecky]

I don't get why we think a club needs an identity or to stand for something.

 

What a load of crap, the only people concerned with what we stand for don't support the club

What does Collingwood or Carlton stand for - absolututly nothing. Just 2 teams that rival each other.

There are some mighty unsuccessful AFL teams that have been around for 100+ years 

 

We are Crap now, but that will change - hopefully this week

 

We stand for football in Melbourne.