Heavy handed security...

[jw1739]

People are jumping to solutions without the three key issues being identified or agreed to (although we know that there is conflict arising and tensions b/w supporters and security).

 

Perhaps those in the active area can answer this one....

 

What common activities undertaken by the Active Group result in ACG interaction / enforcement, and which of these activities are not allowed based on the rules of the stadium / FFA.

 

I am guessing standing on seats, moshing, flares, sitting on fences .... anything else?

Here's a couple of starting points. 

http://www.aamipark.com.au/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-184/145_read-124/ 

http://premier.ticketek.com.au/content/pdf/terms_conditions/FFA-Terms-of-Admission.pdf

[belaguttman]

so

no musical instruments,

 

no entering the arena by climbing the fence,

 

any other item that could be deemed to cause a public nuisance,

 

Ejection from Stadium

A person may be liable for prosecution or a fine or may be ejected from the Stadium where they;
- Use foul or abusive language, or make racial or threatening remarks or gestures
- Is deemed by Stadium management to be displaying offensive, disorderly or unlawful behaviour.
- Enters the Stadium or the playing arena without proper authorisation
- Fails to comply with these conditions of entry or a lawful request from Stadium employees.

 

The following items are also not permitted into the Stadium;
- Large banners taking up more than the patron's seat
- Flags and banners that may cause offence
- Flags or banners that conflict with Stadium or event sponsors

 

in other words any active support whatsoever is at the complete discretion of the AAMI Park management. Any official change to the terms of entry will need to be negotiated by the match day tenant, MHFC.

[jw1739]

Just for information. A couple of matches ago a young lad (10-12) sitting near me in Premium A produced a toy trumpet and played a few notes...one of the AAMI Park stewards (female) was on to him and his parents within 10 seconds...

 

I don't condone in any way violence etc. etc...but a 10-year old with a little trumpet? I have to question where we are going with all these rules and regulations.

[Torn Asunder]

...so the concessions the club has negotiated must be standing, instruments/megaphone, flags, and banners at the start of some games.

I imagine that the behaviour that ACG look to police in Active would be anything from a risk perspective that could cause injury or property damage, eg, standing on a seat is dangerous as the person on the seat may fall off and injure themselves and others and sue...also chair may get broken costing $$$ to fix. Same with moshing.

Other factor is actions that may impact on enjoyment of other paying patrons, such as the kids trumpet.

... So for ACG, when behaviour is observed act immediately based on operational procedures to stop behaviour and restore a ' safe' or compliant situation, including ejecting patrons at the discretion of security.

How are these issues in Active going to be resolved? Clearly security is never going to allow standing on seats, etc...

Are there other things people have been hassled over that in your own opinion are unfair?

Edited March 20, 2013 by Torn Asunder

[Melburnian]

Solution?

Get rid of ACG.

Anyone who knows what it's like to be in active, knows these low IQ meatheads have an agenda and go out of their way to enforce force on Yarraside.

95% of these guys are looking for confrontation. They are hyped up as you walk in.

For a deeper connection to the issue TA you need to sit in the active area to really appreciate the issues.

No use using logic here to sort out the issue. The ACG guys are looking for trouble. Simple as.

[Torn Asunder]

...not sure how logic can't be the tool to resolve an issue, even in your mind if certain aspects of the problem are illogical...

Anyway, this is a link to advice on crowd controllers from legal aid. In short, controllers are licensed by the police and can use reasonable force to remove someone from a venue. This obviously gives ACG the upper hand in justifying their tactics...not saying this is right...

http://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/752.htm

To put it simply, my take on things is that people in Active are at times in breach of stadium / FFA rules, and ACG are then employing zero tolerance enforcement, within (they would argue) the bounds of the powers given to them by law.

The issues:

#the stadium rules - are they justified or are they out of kilter with fans expectations?

Perhaps not, although from an OHS perspective, changes would need to be made to allow certain currently restricted behaviour.

#ACG - are they using excessive force, and are they acting appropriately and professionally, before during and after an incident

From what is being posted excessive force and unprofessional, antagonistic behaviour is being employed

# The Active Supporters - are they obeying the stadium rules, and when there is a breach, are they compliant with enforcement or are they resistant (individually or as a group)

No, at times, rules are being breached and in retaliation against ACG behaviour, some active supporters are collectively working together to thwarte crowd control attempts, further increasing hostilities

Edited March 20, 2013 by Torn Asunder

[Kiro Kompiro]

Given that we've landed men on the moon and built some amazing buildings and structures around the world in recent years I'm surprised that we do not have the technological and engineering nous to actually design seats that could be removed and replaced easily and quickly and therefore cheaply as the occasion demands?

 

That would at least solve the vandalism/standing on seats issue, because in the 'active support area' the seats would not be there. Just one simple example of solving a problem.

 

Just seems to me none of the parties involved in this are actually looking for easy solutions. FFA/clubs/active supporters/security/police all seem to want confrontation rather than co-existence. FFS sit down in a room and tackle one issue at a time. I did all this stuff when I was involved with management/union stuff on workplace safety etc. Once you all stop shouting at one another you'll find you agree on 99% of everything and the remaining 1% is all you have to deal with.

 

So fed up with the minority of people - whoever they are and whether they be FFA/club/active supporter/security/police - who are spoiling the game I love dearly and the club I belong to.

 I agree with most of what you have said.

 

AFAIK all Etihad seats are spring-loaded so they lift up when no-one is sitting on them.  This makes it very easy to have standing areas.This season the seats were apparantly tied down so they didn't lift up- presumably as a measure to prevent them being torn up and a response after the damage done the previous game.  Even more seats were ripped out than last time.

[belaguttman]

Just for information. A couple of matches ago a young lad (10-12) sitting near me in Premium A produced a toy trumpet and played a few notes...one of the AAMI Park stewards (female) was on to him and his parents within 10 seconds...

 

I don't condone in any way violence etc. etc...but a 10-year old with a little trumpet? I have to question where we are going with all these rules and regulations.

any musical instrument must be registered with the club before it is allowed in the ground!

[bazzatron]

Given that we've landed men on the moon and built some amazing buildings and structures around the world in recent years I'm surprised that we do not have the technological and engineering nous to actually design seats that could be removed and replaced easily and quickly and therefore cheaply as the occasion demands?

That would at least solve the vandalism/standing on seats issue, because in the 'active support area' the seats would not be there. Just one simple example of solving a problem.

Just seems to me none of the parties involved in this are actually looking for easy solutions. FFA/clubs/active supporters/security/police all seem to want confrontation rather than co-existence. FFS sit down in a room and tackle one issue at a time. I did all this stuff when I was involved with management/union stuff on workplace safety etc. Once you all stop shouting at one another you'll find you agree on 99% of everything and the remaining 1% is all you have to deal with.

So fed up with the minority of people - whoever they are and whether they be FFA/club/active supporter/security/police - who are spoiling the game I love dearly and the club I belong to.

I agree with most of what you have said.

AFAIK all Etihad seats are spring-loaded so they lift up when no-one is sitting on them. This makes it very easy to have standing areas.This season the seats were apparantly tied down so they didn't lift up- presumably as a measure to prevent them being torn up and a response after the damage done the previous game. Even more seats were ripped out than last time.

For someone who works for ACG you dont know much. The seats at Etihad were tied UP so that they couldnt be sat on. But with a decent tug the cables ties snapped and the seat could be used as intended. I dont know about the rest of you, but I paid for a seat. Whether I choose to sit in it or not is entirely up to me(which I did at half time cos I needed a rest).

I dont condone damaging seats, but its pretty naive to think that just by standing on them is the only way to break them. The amount of time it takes to connect 3 cable ties together and then wrap them around each seat is probably the same time it would take to go along the bay with a cordless rattle gun and simply remove the seats from the bay.

Edited March 20, 2013 by bazzatron

[Red or Dead]

The seats at AAMI Park were designed to withstand standing on. Just FYI 

[Tony999]

Just for information. A couple of matches ago a young lad (10-12) sitting near me in Premium A produced a toy trumpet and played a few notes...one of the AAMI Park stewards (female) was on to him and his parents within 10 seconds...

 

I don't condone in any way violence etc. etc...but a 10-year old with a little trumpet? I have to question where we are going with all these rules and regulations.

 

 

I don't think security and police can get it through their thick heads that a football crowd is not an AFL crowd where people just sits on their arses and clap when something has happened and on the odd ocassion jump out of your seat. Football fans want to create atmospehere, bring atmosphere, jump around, cheer and get involved, not be a golf crowd and do ferry claps when someone scores.

[Bannon]

re post

flares on dere chairs? Edited March 21, 2013 by Bannon

[Bozza]

Just for information. A couple of matches ago a young lad (10-12) sitting near me in Premium A produced a toy trumpet and played a few notes...one of the AAMI Park stewards (female) was on to him and his parents within 10 seconds...

 

I don't condone in any way violence etc. etc...but a 10-year old with a little trumpet? I have to question where we are going with all these rules and regulations.

 

Seriously? Poor kid probably just wanted to join in with Trumpet man and gets a slap on the wrists? NOT COOL

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

Given that we've landed men on the moon and built some amazing buildings and structures around the world in recent years I'm surprised that we do not have the technological and engineering nous to actually design seats that could be removed and replaced easily and quickly and therefore cheaply as the occasion demands?

That would at least solve the vandalism/standing on seats issue, because in the 'active support area' the seats would not be there. Just one simple example of solving a problem.

Just seems to me none of the parties involved in this are actually looking for easy solutions. FFA/clubs/active supporters/security/police all seem to want confrontation rather than co-existence. FFS sit down in a room and tackle one issue at a time. I did all this stuff when I was involved with management/union stuff on workplace safety etc. Once you all stop shouting at one another you'll find you agree on 99% of everything and the remaining 1% is all you have to deal with.

So fed up with the minority of people - whoever they are and whether they be FFA/club/active supporter/security/police - who are spoiling the game I love dearly and the club I belong to.

I agree with most of what you have said.

AFAIK all Etihad seats are spring-loaded so they lift up when no-one is sitting on them. This makes it very easy to have standing areas.This season the seats were apparantly tied down so they didn't lift up- presumably as a measure to prevent them being torn up and a response after the damage done the previous game. Even more seats were ripped out than last time.

For someone who works for ACG you dont know much. The seats at Etihad were tied UP so that they couldnt be sat on. But with a decent tug the cables ties snapped and the seat could be used as intended. I dont know about the rest of you, but I paid for a seat. Whether I choose to sit in it or not is entirely up to me(which I did at half time cos I needed a rest).

I dont condone damaging seats, but its pretty naive to think that just by standing on them is the only way to break them. The amount of time it takes to connect 3 cable ties together and then wrap them around each seat is probably the same time it would take to go along the bay with a cordless rattle gun and simply remove the seats from the bay.

 

I work for ACG?  

 

Whether you sit on a seat or not is not actually up to you, whether you paid for it or not, as someone else has said, standing is a privilege afforded to some supporters in some areas.  If you stand in areas not designated as such, then you'll be told orn made to sit, and usually by other supporters who are sitting because you're blocking their view.

 

Thanks for clarifying the seat tie up situation.  care to explain why that was done to your seats and not the rest of the stadium?

[Boffins]

Given that we've landed men on the moon and built some amazing buildings and structures around the world in recent years I'm surprised that we do not have the technological and engineering nous to actually design seats that could be removed and replaced easily and quickly and therefore cheaply as the occasion demands?

That would at least solve the vandalism/standing on seats issue, because in the 'active support area' the seats would not be there. Just one simple example of solving a problem.

Just seems to me none of the parties involved in this are actually looking for easy solutions. FFA/clubs/active supporters/security/police all seem to want confrontation rather than co-existence. FFS sit down in a room and tackle one issue at a time. I did all this stuff when I was involved with management/union stuff on workplace safety etc. Once you all stop shouting at one another you'll find you agree on 99% of everything and the remaining 1% is all you have to deal with.

So fed up with the minority of people - whoever they are and whether they be FFA/club/active supporter/security/police - who are spoiling the game I love dearly and the club I belong to.

I agree with most of what you have said.

AFAIK all Etihad seats are spring-loaded so they lift up when no-one is sitting on them. This makes it very easy to have standing areas.This season the seats were apparantly tied down so they didn't lift up- presumably as a measure to prevent them being torn up and a response after the damage done the previous game. Even more seats were ripped out than last time. For someone who works for ACG you dont know much. The seats at Etihad were tied UP so that they couldnt be sat on. But with a decent tug the cables ties snapped and the seat could be used as intended. I dont know about the rest of you, but I paid for a seat. Whether I choose to sit in it or not is entirely up to me(which I did at half time cos I needed a rest).

I dont condone damaging seats, but its pretty naive to think that just by standing on them is the only way to break them. The amount of time it takes to connect 3 cable ties together and then wrap them around each seat is probably the same time it would take to go along the bay with a cordless rattle gun and simply remove the seats from the bay.

I work for ACG?

Whether you sit on a seat or not is not actually up to you, whether you paid for it or not, as someone else has said, standing is a privilege afforded to some supporters in some areas. If you stand in areas not designated as such, then you'll be told orn made to sit, and usually by other supporters who are sitting because you're blocking their view.

Thanks for clarifying the seat tie up situation. care to explain why that was done to your seats and not the rest of the stadium?

So say they ban all standing areas.. And we all still stand, will the acg gods strike us down because last time I checked we have the numbers and silencing an entire groups voice can be rather tricky. Ys supports Melbourne heart just like every other member and spectator, just like you... If you stop making your posts from a secco's point of view people might not suggest you work for them, there's being non bias and then there's rooting for the otherside you seem to only focus on any negative points in regards to ys(if any) so you're either acg or a pessimist.

[bazzatron]

 

 

Given that we've landed men on the moon and built some amazing buildings and structures around the world in recent years I'm surprised that we do not have the technological and engineering nous to actually design seats that could be removed and replaced easily and quickly and therefore cheaply as the occasion demands?

That would at least solve the vandalism/standing on seats issue, because in the 'active support area' the seats would not be there. Just one simple example of solving a problem.

Just seems to me none of the parties involved in this are actually looking for easy solutions. FFA/clubs/active supporters/security/police all seem to want confrontation rather than co-existence. FFS sit down in a room and tackle one issue at a time. I did all this stuff when I was involved with management/union stuff on workplace safety etc. Once you all stop shouting at one another you'll find you agree on 99% of everything and the remaining 1% is all you have to deal with.

So fed up with the minority of people - whoever they are and whether they be FFA/club/active supporter/security/police - who are spoiling the game I love dearly and the club I belong to.

I agree with most of what you have said.

AFAIK all Etihad seats are spring-loaded so they lift up when no-one is sitting on them. This makes it very easy to have standing areas.This season the seats were apparantly tied down so they didn't lift up- presumably as a measure to prevent them being torn up and a response after the damage done the previous game. Even more seats were ripped out than last time.

For someone who works for ACG you dont know much. The seats at Etihad were tied UP so that they couldnt be sat on. But with a decent tug the cables ties snapped and the seat could be used as intended. I dont know about the rest of you, but I paid for a seat. Whether I choose to sit in it or not is entirely up to me(which I did at half time cos I needed a rest).

I dont condone damaging seats, but its pretty naive to think that just by standing on them is the only way to break them. The amount of time it takes to connect 3 cable ties together and then wrap them around each seat is probably the same time it would take to go along the bay with a cordless rattle gun and simply remove the seats from the bay.

 

I work for ACG?  

 

Whether you sit on a seat or not is not actually up to you, whether you paid for it or not, as someone else has said, standing is a privilege afforded to some supporters in some areas.  If you stand in areas not designated as such, then you'll be told orn made to sit, and usually by other supporters who are sitting because you're blocking their view.

 

Thanks for clarifying the seat tie up situation.  care to explain why that was done to your seats and not the rest of the stadium?

I must have mis-read your sarcasm earlier on "Yeah I'm ACG".

 

As for the rest of the stadium, I have no idea.

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

 

 

Given that we've landed men on the moon and built some amazing buildings and structures around the world in recent years I'm surprised that we do not have the technological and engineering nous to actually design seats that could be removed and replaced easily and quickly and therefore cheaply as the occasion demands?

That would at least solve the vandalism/standing on seats issue, because in the 'active support area' the seats would not be there. Just one simple example of solving a problem.

Just seems to me none of the parties involved in this are actually looking for easy solutions. FFA/clubs/active supporters/security/police all seem to want confrontation rather than co-existence. FFS sit down in a room and tackle one issue at a time. I did all this stuff when I was involved with management/union stuff on workplace safety etc. Once you all stop shouting at one another you'll find you agree on 99% of everything and the remaining 1% is all you have to deal with.

So fed up with the minority of people - whoever they are and whether they be FFA/club/active supporter/security/police - who are spoiling the game I love dearly and the club I belong to.

I agree with most of what you have said.

AFAIK all Etihad seats are spring-loaded so they lift up when no-one is sitting on them. This makes it very easy to have standing areas.This season the seats were apparantly tied down so they didn't lift up- presumably as a measure to prevent them being torn up and a response after the damage done the previous game. Even more seats were ripped out than last time. For someone who works for ACG you dont know much. The seats at Etihad were tied UP so that they couldnt be sat on. But with a decent tug the cables ties snapped and the seat could be used as intended. I dont know about the rest of you, but I paid for a seat. Whether I choose to sit in it or not is entirely up to me(which I did at half time cos I needed a rest).

I dont condone damaging seats, but its pretty naive to think that just by standing on them is the only way to break them. The amount of time it takes to connect 3 cable ties together and then wrap them around each seat is probably the same time it would take to go along the bay with a cordless rattle gun and simply remove the seats from the bay.

I work for ACG?

Whether you sit on a seat or not is not actually up to you, whether you paid for it or not, as someone else has said, standing is a privilege afforded to some supporters in some areas. If you stand in areas not designated as such, then you'll be told orn made to sit, and usually by other supporters who are sitting because you're blocking their view.

Thanks for clarifying the seat tie up situation. care to explain why that was done to your seats and not the rest of the stadium?

So say they ban all standing areas.. And we all still stand, will the acg gods strike us down because last time I checked we have the numbers and silencing an entire groups voice can be rather tricky. Ys supports Melbourne heart just like every other member and spectator, just like you... If you stop making your posts from a secco's point of view people might not suggest you work for them, there's being non bias and then there's rooting for the otherside you seem to only focus on any negative points in regards to ys(if any) so you're either acg or a pessimist.

 See, those two words right there encapsulate what is wrong with what is happening in this discussion.

 

Far far more people have given far far more to get Australian football to where it is today than some of the turds who see themselves as little wannabe ultras by ripping up flares, tearing up seats, decking fellow supporters,

 

I can tell you right now if you present your arguments to the wider football community, you will be told that there is A LOT wrong with the behaviour of some of Yarraside's members.  Bela tried it on 442- go and have a read of the responses he got.

 

Someone mentioned active supporters across clubs banding together.  Problem is Yarraside does not have the wide spread support for that it thinks it does.

 

To move forward there has to be an acknowledgment of what is wrong in out own backyard.  A couple poster here have grudgingly admitted some responsibility.  Until the majority realise there's a problem with the active support, and changes happen, security will continue its hard line against active support, they have no choice.

[Boffins]

You are a wanker mate, all that and two words is all you get out of my comment.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Boffins

[Boffins]

A few bad apples does not mean cut down the tree and plant again.

[AyeCee]

The issue is that regardless of our poor behaviour, ACG has been hired to ensure issues do not escalate, and to keep people in line. This has to be done in a non-confrontational, non-violent way. However, this is the complete opposite of how this company behaves, and it is unacceptable.

From day dot it has been clear that these tools enjoy the violent aspect of their jobs, and have no issue in antagonising the fans. Whilst yes, sometimes the rules are broken, I don't believe that dragging people out by the feet and pushing people off chairs is a very professional way of dealing with these situations. Instead of angering one or two individuals, this company will happily agitate the entire home end, as we saw on the weekend and in previous examples.

The fans don't appreciate such treatment, and WILL ark up in response. This just lead to more security issues, which only makes the situation worse. It is completely reckless on their behalf, and unbelievable that they still even have a contract.

If ACG would only show some professionalism and reservedness in it's actions, I don't think there would nearly as many complaints as there are now. We don't go to games looking for trouble, but we won't sit quietly whilst these cunts continue to bully us and our mates.

 

[Torn Asunder]

I go back to my early post ...

#the stadium rules - are they justified or are they out of kilter with fans expectations?

Perhaps not, although from an OHS perspective, changes would need to be made to allow certain currently restricted behaviour.

#ACG - are they using excessive force, and are they acting appropriately and professionally, before during and after an incident?

From what is being posted excessive force and unprofessional, antagonistic behaviour is being employed

# The Active Supporters - are they obeying the stadium rules, and when there is a breach, are they compliant with enforcement or are they resistant (individually or as a group)?

No, at times, rules are being breached and in retaliation against ACG behaviour, some active supporters are collectively working together to thwarte crowd control attempts, further increasing hostilities

 

Again, I think its important to remember that the crowd controllers are empowered by Vic Police .... which I guess gives them way to much power based on their behaviour.  This seems to be an industry issue (think of the incidents recently at Crown).

 

I think the starting point in resolving these matters (as previously posted by others) is an Active Area Code of Conduct, drawn up firstly by YS.  This will clearly spell out the accepeted behaviours of the Active Area.  In drawing up such a code, if there are things currenly banned which the Active Area want to to do, the club would need to agree to these things, so that they can try and arrange concessions.

[AyeCee]

I think it's already well known what is expected of supporters, and core already work to get concessions for the active area that bypass the regulations. A 'code of conduct' is pointless, as it would only reinstate the rules that are already well known. Issues do not arise due to disagreement with regulations, they arise due to the aggressive nature of those who enforce them.

It needs to be communicated that ACG are only needed for serious breaches of the rules, not for 'minor offences' such as standing on seats. Get a marshal to do this. From there, it also needs to be communicated that they needn't use such aggressive force when interacting with fans, and that celebrating an opposition's goal or threatening young supporters is out of line and antagonistic.

 

[belaguttman]

I think it's already well known what is expected of supporters, and core already work to get concessions for the active area that bypass the regulations. A 'code of conduct' is pointless, as it would only reinstate the rules that are already well known. Issues do not arise due to disagreement with regulations, they arise due to the aggressive nature of those who enforce them.

It needs to be communicated that ACG are only needed for serious breaches of the rules, not for 'minor offences' such as standing on seats. Get a marshal to do this. From there, it also needs to be communicated that they needn't use such aggressive force when interacting with fans, and that celebrating an opposition's goal or threatening young supporters is out of line and antagonistic.

 

Lighting flares is an example of a breach, and whatever our own personal views about flares are, we know that this will elicit a response that decreases our enjoyment of the game and the effectiveness of our support. The same goes for destruction of seats etc. It's in our interests to ensure that this doesn't happen. If we want to make an effective case for ACG to take a less proactive role (and I think that this would be very helpful) then we can't be seen to condone or even tolerate behaviour  in our supporters that undermines our message. A code of conduct might also include steps to escalate a response to an incident  - minor incidents may (and should) be dealt with us us ourselves, ACG should work to support our self-regulation not to undermine it.

[AyeCee]

I think it's already well known what is expected of supporters, and core already work to get concessions for the active area that bypass the regulations. A 'code of conduct' is pointless, as it would only reinstate the rules that are already well known. Issues do not arise due to disagreement with regulations, they arise due to the aggressive nature of those who enforce them.

It needs to be communicated that ACG are only needed for serious breaches of the rules, not for 'minor offences' such as standing on seats. Get a marshal to do this. From there, it also needs to be communicated that they needn't use such aggressive force when interacting with fans, and that celebrating an opposition's goal or threatening young supporters is out of line and antagonistic.

 

Lighting flares is an example of a breach, and whatever our own personal views about flares are, we know that this will elicit a response that decreases our enjoyment of the game and the effectiveness of our support. The same goes for destruction of seats etc. It's in our interests to ensure that this doesn't happen. If we want to make an effective case for ACG to take a less proactive role (and I think that this would be very helpful) then we can't be seen to condone or even tolerate behaviour  in our supporters that undermines our message. A code of conduct might also include steps to escalate a response to an incident  - minor incidents may (and should) be dealt with us us ourselves, ACG should work to support our self-regulation not to undermine it.

Self-policing will never work in our end, and will lead to more conflict.

I understand that there are some behaviours that are unacceptable, and such behaviour should be dealt with by security. I have no issue with this.

It is when I see friends get pushed off seats that they are standing on without warning, and ACG employees welcoming a physical altercation that I feel that something is not right.

Not matter how misbehaved we may be, they are a professional security agency, and should know better than to inflame a situation, no matter what it be.

Edited March 21, 2013 by AyeCee

[jw1739]

 

I think it's already well known what is expected of supporters, and core already work to get concessions for the active area that bypass the regulations. A 'code of conduct' is pointless, as it would only reinstate the rules that are already well known. Issues do not arise due to disagreement with regulations, they arise due to the aggressive nature of those who enforce them.

It needs to be communicated that ACG are only needed for serious breaches of the rules, not for 'minor offences' such as standing on seats. Get a marshal to do this. From there, it also needs to be communicated that they needn't use such aggressive force when interacting with fans, and that celebrating an opposition's goal or threatening young supporters is out of line and antagonistic.

 

Lighting flares is an example of a breach, and whatever our own personal views about flares are, we know that this will elicit a response that decreases our enjoyment of the game and the effectiveness of our support. The same goes for destruction of seats etc. It's in our interests to ensure that this doesn't happen. If we want to make an effective case for ACG to take a less proactive role (and I think that this would be very helpful) then we can't be seen to condone or even tolerate behaviour  in our supporters that undermines our message. A code of conduct might also include steps to escalate a response to an incident  - minor incidents may (and should) be dealt with us us ourselves, ACG should work to support our self-regulation not to undermine it.

Self-policing will never work in our end, and will lead to more conflict.

I understand that there are some behaviours that are unacceptable, and such behaviour should be dealt with by security. I have no issue with this.

It is when I see friends get pushed off seats that they are standing on without warning, and ACG employees welcoming a physical altercation that I feel that something is not right.

Not matter how misbehaved we may be, they are a professional security agency, and should know better than to inflame a situation, no matter what it be.

You are clearly not interested in following a conflict-resolution process. You are clearly not interested in changing your behaviour, but expect someone else to change theirs. It is quite pointless to go on with this discussion.

[HEARTinator]

Maybe it's time to close this thread. You can bet your bottom dollar that ACG will be monitoring this discussion and just shaking their heads in disbelief. It would look to them like we "can't get our shit together' to quote a well used phrase.

Edited March 21, 2013 by HEARTinator

[kingofhearts]

Maybe it's time to close this thread. You can bet your bottom dollar that ACG will be monitoring this discussion and just shaking their heads in disbelief. It would look to them like we "can't get our shit together' to quote a well used phrase.

I would honestly be surprised if any of them were following this thread, half of them wouldn't be able to read tbh  

[AyeCee]

Solid response. Blame the fans and continue to ignore the atrocious behaviour shown by those on shift.
 

[Melburnian]

Solid response. Blame the fans and continue to ignore the atrocious behaviour shown by those on shift.

Seems like that's what we are gonna keep hearing and seeing. Problem won't be resolved because of this attitude from the club and non active people thinking they have a clue what really happens.

[ThePolo]

Personally I think one of the Issue with security, is the fact that there isnt enough training for them to understand, what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable. They need to realise that they cant try and pick up every little rule there is, they are there to ensure the area is safe, and if it is safe and no one is at risk of being injured, then there is no need to intervene. 

[Torn Asunder]

Some snippets from posts above ...

"The issue is that regardless of our poor

behaviour, ACG has been hired to ensure

issues do not escalate..."

"A 'code of conduct' is pointless,

as it would only reinstate the rules

that are already well known."

"Self-policing will never work in our end,

and will lead to more conflict."

"No matter how misbehaved we may be,

they are a professional security agency,

and should know better..."

"Problem won't be resolved because

of this attitude from the club and

non active people thinking they have a clue..."

Guys, I guess you are on your own...

Good luck with it

[MrAiDaN66]

we are on our own? aren't you a part of the Representative group? 
what a matter with you. you do not deserve the role if you cannot take in what ppl on here give to you
"ON YOUR OWN"??? you are a joke

[Braveheart]

we are on our own? aren't you a part of the Representative group? 

what a matter with you. you do not deserve the role if you cannot take in what ppl on here give to you

"ON YOUR OWN"??? you are a joke

Don't worry mate. Issues in regards to active support are communicated to the club through other channels. 

[Pigeon]

I have been reading this thread and have refrained from commenting but these guys are A-grade clowns. Seriously, these guys are a pack of fucking idiots and it's not only at the football they're also idiots at the tennis and at work functions I've been to. Of course they're not all bad but i legitimately think over half these guys are idiots, it seems like they are really aggressive all the time and looking for a fight. I'm only going to talk about A few footballing incidents with these meat heads because if i talk about the rest it would be an essay.

 

At the derby at Etihad when we were entering the gate (after the march) we started walking through and there were people jumping the gate, i was there with my ticket and the bloke still decided to shove me with both hands to move me out of the way, not only that but they were grabbing people by their clothes and stuff to check the tickets. 

This isn't too bad but the problem is someone is going to retaliate to this crap and get blamed for it since these knobs don't cop any blame from anyone. A couple of weeks ago at the Adelaide game when they were trying to remove the bloke down the bottom left they came through my aisle as i was right behind him. This ACG rat comes through and instead of politely asking me if he can get past me he decides to start pushing me so he could get through, unfortunately for him this led to a couple of minutes of me chanting 'WE ARE MELBOURNE IN HIS EAR', loved the look on his face when they didn't get the kid and he had to walk back down the aisle   

Lastly, past Saturday was an absolute disgrace i was at the top of Y-side when ACG were trying to remove Ando and i could see them getting aggressive with a few people in the terrace. After speaking to my mates about the incident they told me they were pushing people down chairs just to get through including a kid in front of them who looked about 12 years old. When Y-Side moved to the City End i had enough, so i just moved across a bay and sat down to watch the game peacefully. I could hear two ACG guards yapping about how Yarraside are 'full of dickheads' because one of 'our mates' got removed so we all left when it was quite obvious Ando is the Capo. After La Rocca scored the 3rd one of these fuckers starts celebrating and is looking at me smiling before saying to me 'have a good one' clearly trying to get a rise out of me. 

these guys are a bunch of arrogant fucks who are too busy looking for a fight instead of doing their job properly. I do not understand why they have to remove people mid game? For example, if someone lights a flare and they know who it is why not wait till the game is over to grab him instead of barging through people and causing a commotion. Rant over.

[Torn Asunder]

...there has been NO consensus on anything constructive with respect to this topic. There is nothing new that I can take to the club.

The active supporters and the leaders of active support need to come up with something positive so that progress can be made.

Make no mistake, in terms of a negative impact on the club, the active issues this season have done ten times more damage to our brand in comparison with the team's poor season on the pitch.

It is not enough to just say that the security is the problem. I have no doubt that there are a bunch of active supporters who love the conflict with ACG and love causing them grief. This, however, is not the way to support the club and a solution is needed.

Give me something constructive and I will take it to the club. The reason I said you are on your own is that it was clearly stated that problem is unresolvable.

[Torn Asunder]

By the way I get it that ACG are a bunch of nongs when it comes to how they deal with active...but that still does not resolve the problem

[Boffins]

This isn't even worth a comment, terrace leaders are in contact with the club on behalf of the ys. Has been mentioned more than enough. Posting discussions between ys and the club on a public forum is unwise and better kept in house I'd imagine

No ones going to agree with each other so end discussion maybe? If it helps you're all right now go have a wank/bong/beer and go bed

Edited March 21, 2013 by Boffins

[FB.]

...there has been NO consensus on anything constructive with respect to this topic. There is nothing new that I can take to the club.

The active supporters and the leaders of active support need to come up with something positive so that progress can be made.

Make no mistake, in terms of a negative impact on the club, the active issues this season have done ten times more damage to our brand in comparison with the team's poor season on the pitch.

It is not enough to just say that the security is the problem. I have no doubt that there are a bunch of active supporters who love the conflict with ACG and love causing them grief. This, however, is not the way to support the club and a solution is needed.

Give me something constructive and I will take it to the club. The reason I said you are on your own is that it was clearly stated that problem is unresolvable.

Sorry, where did anyone here ask for your help in this matter? I have no idea who you are and I can't remember ever giving you permission to represent us Active supporters to the club.

You're far over exceeding your jurisdiction here, pal.

With respect, whether you're on a fan 'representative group', or not. Unless you have some involvement with being an active supporter of this club, it's not your business to be getting involved in terrace matters and pushing your views on what you wish the terrace to be or what you wish it to do, or changes you want made to Active Areas onto others.

FWIW, you are never going to get a consensus of anything over an internet forum. It's the nature of the beast. It's what keeps this place ticking over. If anyone has actually read through the thread, only 2 or 3 active supporters have replied to your posts. Maybe, just maybe, people are staying silent because things will be worked out in person not over the net - as it should be done.

[Torn Asunder]

Its good to know that the terrace leaders are dealing with this matter. Lets hope for the sake of the club that they are able to demonstrate genuine leadership and get some resolutions on the issues at hand.

In terms of my jurisdiction, I am simply one of 8 supporters that the club has chosen to engage with, including bringing to the attention of the club matters raised on this forum.

I didn't start this topic, but it is clearly an important and polarising issue. Perhaps it would have been beneficial if one of the terrace leaders had posted something along the lines of "we are aware of the issues and we are working with the club behind closed on a resolution".

Although robust debate is sometimes good in working through issues, a post of this nature would have saved some people a lot of angst.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Torn Asunder

[schrecky]

I’m not an active supporter, but do like to sit in the away bay on the away trips.

I do have a keen interest in the Active group/area working out – mainly for the success of the club.

The problem I see is this catch 22 scenario where we have some overzealous security looking for trouble, combined with the occasional trouble caused when you get groups of youngens all hyped up together possibly alcohol induced. 

 

Although it’s occasional, this will always cause security to ramp up.

 

I cannot see how any of the responsible blokes in the terrace can ensure the others don’t cause any trouble.

On the other hand if you have security always looking over your shoulder, tempting the trouble it will come.

Solution Time.

Somehow we need to enter negotiation with the security guys/club/ffa so that they do not intimidate the 98% of well-meaning active fans.

We have no bargaining chips unless somehow we can assure them that flares will not be thrown or stadium damage will not occur.  [The only items I see that have caused heavy handed security]

So let’s concentrate on the good things.  (The things to sell in the negotiation)

• We don’t fight amongst our own
• We are there united to cheer for our team
• Most of the guys/girls don’t cause trouble
• There are kids in the group
• The group is self-contained – i.e. not causing trouble to anyone else in the stadium.
• The group creates atmosphere that brings people to the game
• The group creates colour that also brings people to the game.

The Bad (in the eyes of the public)

• Flares
• Vandalism
• Security intimidation is just as bad a look for the game as ripping flares

The Goal

Security postings - Perhaps by only having them posted at the back (disabled area) and in front (on the ground).  

Security behaviour - We cannot have them looking for every little infraction as it inflames a problem that is not really there.

Active Fan behaviour – Active yet not illegal?

 

I Honestly think to achieve all this we need to map out all the stakeholders (club/ffa/fans/security/aami park/police) and benefits to all with a unified productive approach.   Some of these stakeholders have more influence then others - deal with them.