RD 17 City travel to face the NRMAWSW

[rass]

1 minute ago, HEARTinator said:

Danny Mills on Fox says our tactics were naive. Good going forward but can't defend and should have been better prepared.

JvS now blaming the players for being naive in the way they gave away the ball 

Yep heard that from Mills and spot on. Basically JvS Man City approach is so arrogant they don't bother putting time into opposition teams, thinking our way will just score more.

Pathetic and got shown up badly tonight. If we didn't have the forward quality papering over the cracks. ..

[Dylan]

So I didn't get to see any off it. Going by Twitter and the stats it seemed pretty even and the Wanderers got the rub of the green from the ref.

is this true?

[belaguttman]

Now that Paddy is out for 2 months we really need a good CB, not sure who is available AND fit. Only a few days in the transfer window left

7 minutes ago, Kiro Kompiro said:

thought The Gooch showed a lot of terrier about him when he came on.

Eric's pass completion rate?  Malik's?

JVS- it was clear 3 at the back would not work early on.

wanted to smash foster with is "this game was all about the wanderers". comment.

The only time it isn't about Wanderers is when its about Sydney FC. It doesn't make a difference whether you are listening to Sydney Broadcasting Srrvice or Poxtel

[frenzal]

16 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Thanks to individual brilliance JVS almost got himself out of this one. 

 

6 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

No tactical flexibility and no defensive organisation.

We got back into the game because of individual brilliance rather than team play.

^^^

Pretty much this, also we need to figure out how to keep our nursing home all-stars on the pitch

3 Melling

2 Mooy

1 Fornaroli

[belaguttman]

4 minutes ago, Dylan said:

So I didn't get to see any off it. Going by Twitter and the stats it seemed pretty even and the Wanderers got the rub of the green from the ref.

is this true?

The ref allowed the game to flow otherwise WSW would have brought to to a standstill with non-stop rough house tackles. he did allow 2 off-side goals though and Mark Bridge should have got a yellow, probably a red early in the game but got nothing

[Nate]

5 minutes ago, Dylan said:

So I didn't get to see any off it. Going by Twitter and the stats it seemed pretty even and the Wanderers got the rub of the green from the ref.

is this true?

nah, ref was shit for both sides

[wombegongal]

8 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Positives:

Despite playing the wrong formation and persisting with it for 94 minutes we were mostly competitive and didn't stop until the last minute. A most un-Heart like game.

Didn't really miss Kisnorbo in defence, the issue was disorganisation and defending too narrow - a 'feature' of 3-5-2

Created few chances after the first 15 minutes but took them

Hopefully its clear to CFG that we can't win without any defensive organisation

Negatives:

2 offside goals to WSW

Bridge should have been red-carded in the first half

No tactical flexibility and no defensive organisation.

We got back into the game because of individual brilliance rather than team play

Unless we finish top (and that's unlikely) we'll get an away final against WSW

Had to listen to SBS commentary - more one sided than the Phoenix fanboys.

Thet's right Frid. After thus metch I cen confirm the Phoenix will win the a league.

[Kinnibari]

4 minutes ago, Dylan said:

So I didn't get to see any off it. Going by Twitter and the stats it seemed pretty even and the Wanderers got the rub of the green from the ref.

is this true?

Our defense had issues. Again. 

[Dezy94]

For 65-70 minutes that was hard to watch. Following Fornaroli's miss in the early stages I thought we were outplayed, clearly their physical attention on Harry and Mooy worked, though I thought Bridge should've seen red for that tackle on Melling. Showed our class in the later stages, Fornaroli's finish was world class and Mooy was dangerous later in the game but why we persist with this back 3 I'm not sure. With Hughes not playing JVS should've added more cover back and told the lads to slow things down. At least play Paartalu as a central defensive. Yep tough loss tonight, thought at one stage after Tuna's goal we we were on the way to a club defining win, but have faith. Meet them again in finals and we can beat them, no question. 

[wombegongal]

10 minutes ago, KSK_47 said:

Haha. Its still the players!

Foster was right in saying you need to be able to retain the ball to play this formation well and our midfield retention isn't high enough for that currently which ultimately is a case of the coach not setting up for the players he has.

On the flip side of the coin in a more team oriented setup it would be interesting to see if Novillo has as much influence as this setup has really set him free. Perhaps a 4-4-2 might be worth a look or a variation where only one wing back stays high at a time.

Finally despite the result we weren't that dire. I thought a few key decisions influenced the game and how we ended up with a player sent off and they didn't is laughable. Despite the adversity we played to the end and with a tactical tweak I believe we will beat them next time we play them.

[belaguttman]

The problem wasn't the back 3 as such, 3-5-2 relies on 2 well drilled wing backs with good engines who can run up and down the field to provide defensive and offensive width. We have 2 good wing backs who are both coming back from injury and don't have the endurance. Surprise surprise we lifted and scored when they were both replaced. We need to play a formation and tactics that suit the players, or players that suit the tactics and formation

[jw1739]

Just looked at the video. As Bela says, two of the Wanderers' goals should have been disallowed for offside.

[wombegongal]

Just now, jw1739 said:

Just looked at the video. As Bela says, two of the Wanderers' goals should have been disallowed for offside.

They get away with murder every week. Offside goals and persistent fouling just means we have to be that much better than them. They are a bunch of grubs and when we roll them next time it will be all the sweeter. 

[belaguttman]

7 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Just looked at the video. As Bela says, two of the Wanderers' goals should have been disallowed for offside.

...and Bridge should have received a red for his tackle. It doesn't hide our tactical shortcomings though. JVS has gotta go

Edited January 29, 2016 by belaguttman

[Jestr]

Bruno and Harry keep delaying the execution. 

Pray any of them don't go down with injury because I'm certain jvs does every day 

[belaguttman]

17 minutes ago, wombegongal said:

Foster was right in saying you need to be able to retain the ball to play this formation well and our midfield retention isn't high enough for that currently which ultimately is a case of the coach not setting up for the players he has.

 

Its not just our midfield, the problem is our first pass into attacking transition - its crucial, just listen to someone like Klopp talk about it. We either turnover that first pass out of defence into midfield, or make the wrong choice of pass putting midfielders under too much pressure, especially against teams like WSW or visitors who press well in midfield. It makes our midfield look worse than it is when the problem starts with the back 3 or 4

[Cityamatic]

Disappointing night, despite some individual brilliance making the scoreline look close we really never looked like winning that - and if we had it certainly wouldn't have been through being the better side on the night. Was only a matter of time before our defence got busted apart in that style, we have looked brilliant in two thirds of the pitch most of the time over the last couple of months, but that defensive third has looked suspect all season, and our failure to strengthen it over the January transfer period is disappointing when it is clear it will be this part of the field that makes or breaks us this season. As a Newcastle United supporter from waaaay back, if City are going down the route of 'if you score 3, we'll score 4' as their attitude to player recruitment and playing style in their efforts to win a title, perhaps they might have a look how that worked out for the Toon 20 odd years ago.

On another topic. One thing I'm trying to figure out is how Santalab was not called offside for that final goal, and if anyone here can clarify how or why he didn't get called I'd appreciate it - for me, he was offside when the ball releasing Castelan was played through, and as far as I could tell he didn't come back onside before receiving the ball and putting it away. If I missed something let me know, but in every match I've played that'd be called back (and I've played in some pretty woefully officiated matches).

[playmaker]

9 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

formationThe problem wasn't the back 3 as such, 3-5-2 relies on 2 well drilled wing backs with good engines who can run up and down the field to provide defensive and offensive width. We have 2 good wing backs who are both coming back from injury and don't have the endurance. Surprise surprise we lifted and scored when they were both replaced. We need to play a formation and tactics that suit the players, or players that suit the tactics and formation

Been saying this all along.

Formation requires wings that can sprint back to cover the counter, a DM that can choose to sweep or press effectively with exceptional passing, and a back 3 +1 to defend a zone and sweep the through ball.

And should be played with caution against a pressing good quality wing attack and solid attacking centre..

Very unlikely any quality coach would play this formation against WSW.

 

[belaguttman]

1 minute ago, playmaker said:

Been saying this all along.

Formation requires wings that can sprint back to cover the counter, a DM that can choose to sweep or press effectively with exceptional passing, and a back 3 +1 to defend a zone and sweep the through ball.

And should be played with caution against a pressing good quality wing attack and solid attacking centre..

Very unlikely any quality coach would play this formation against WSW.

 

We may be OK in 3 or 4 games when both Franjic and Zullo are match fit and can play 90 minutes but they can't do it now.

[wombegongal]

2 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Its not just our midfield, the problem is our first pass into attacking transition - its crucial, just listen to someone like Klopp talk about it. We either turnover that first pass out of defence into midfield, or make the wrong choice of pass putting midfielders under too much pressure, especially against teams like WSW or visitors who press well in midfield. It makes our midfield look worse than it is when the problem starts with the back 3 or 4

Our ball retention is some what caused by this but in some instances it is caused by simple skill errors when not under pressure. Plenty of examples of both occurring tonight.

[HEARTinator]

7 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Its not just our midfield, the problem is our first pass into attacking transition - its crucial, just listen to someone like Klopp talk about it. We either turnover that first pass out of defence into midfield, or make the wrong choice of pass putting midfielders under too much pressure, especially against teams like WSW or visitors who press well in midfield. It makes our midfield look worse than it is when the problem starts with the back 3 or 4

I find Portaloo guilty of some poor passing out of defence. Probably the most crucial part of the pitch not to make a passing error. How many times have I seen him pass the ball accidentally into the back of an opposition player causing a turnover. Muscrat was a master at finding the right pass to make coming out of the defence - I'm afraid to say.

[HEARTinator]

11 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Its not just our midfield, the problem is our first pass into attacking transition - its crucial, just listen to someone like Klopp talk about it. We either turnover that first pass out of defence into midfield, or make the wrong choice of pass putting midfielders under too much pressure, especially against teams like WSW or visitors who press well in midfield. It makes our midfield look worse than it is when the problem starts with the back 3 or 4

I find Portaloo guilty of some poor passing out of defence. Probably the most crucial part of the pitch not to make a passing error. How many times have I seen him pass the ball accidentally into the back of an opposition player causing a turnover. Muscrat was a master at finding the right pass to make coming out of the defence - I'm afraid to say.

Edited January 29, 2016 by HEARTinator

[belaguttman]

7 minutes ago, wombegongal said:

Our ball retention is some what caused by this but in some instances it is caused by simple skill errors when not under pressure. Plenty of examples of both occurring tonight.

Couldn't disagree with that either

[Dylan]

Although I hate losing to those self righteous cunts. Im not surprised we did so don't really care

[playmaker]

7 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

We may be OK in 3 or 4 games when both Franjic and Zullo are match fit and can play 90 minutes but they can't do it now.

I agree with you to a point however the coordination between the back 3 and DM is non existent. Don't know whether it is lack of discipline or bad coaching but from my understanding the organisation of the back 3 +1 should be similar to a zoned catenaccio to sweep the wide ball in or an aggressive marking DM, CM for the centre counter.

Or only one winger presses high so the other can come back on the counter which creates a back 4 structure.

Hardly ever see it and is probably why we continually concede.

Just not sure if its the instruction or the execution.

[belaguttman]

I'd be putting my money on bad coaching

[Jestr]

Score line paints a much, much better picture than what actually transpired on the field.

Bruno and Harry saved us from a huge defeat

Edited January 29, 2016 by Jestr

[Dylan]

I'm going to ask again in a few days how we really went. Everyone is way too emotional at the moment

[playmaker]

1 minute ago, Dylan said:

I'm going to ask again in a few days how we really went. Everyone is way too emotional at the moment

Just confused more than anything

[Dylan]

1 minute ago, playmaker said:

Just confused more than anything

Well maybe but after every loss everyone goes berserk and thinks it's the end of the world and thus exaggerate the negatives. So because I didn't watch the game i want to know how we honestly went. The stats say it was close and we had a lot more possession 

[Deeming]

On the positive side of things we've scored almost 1/3 of the goals that WSW have conceded this season.

[playmaker]

2 minutes ago, Dylan said:

Well maybe but after every loss everyone goes berserk and thinks it's the end of the world and thus exaggerate the negatives. So because I didn't watch the game i want to know how we honestly went. The stats say it was close and we had a lot more possession 

I think everyone that watched the game would have thought that after our defensive leader went down we should gone 4 back and 2 DMs.

Consensus is we got out coached again.

That's why we played the way we did.

[heart_fan10]

Tonight showed we have players who can turn a game on its head when we were gone for all money at 3-0 down. Even with 10 men we were threatening 

If we could tighten up in defence we would be so far ahead of everyone it's not funny. 2 marquee sports open (guest + visa) i will never understand why we don't sign the best 2 centre backs available at the moment and just be done with it. 

[n i k o]

41 minutes ago, Dylan said:

I'm going to ask again in a few days how we really went. Everyone is way too emotional at the moment

They exposed our wings and got in behind our back line many times. We played a very flat backline which also helped them do this. Our ball turnover rate seemed very high which made it even harder to execute the 3-5-2 system effectively and left our wing back high and dry. This carried on for about 70 minutes after which they scored 3 goals and dropped off slightly. We also added some fresh legs by bringing on two new wingers in Retre and Garruccio. Some great work by Mooy in the middle and some ridiculous individual brilliance by Harry and Bruno got us back into it. We then copped another goal pressing high up the pitch. Paartalus goal was a consolation at the end. Tactics exposed us badly tonight and a stubbornness to change something that wasn't working. 

Overall entertainng game for the neutral, frustrating for the supporter. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by n i k o

[HEARTinator]

3 minutes ago, heart_fan10 said:

Tonight showed we have players who can turn a game on its head when we were gone for all money at 3-0 down. Even with 10 men we were threatening 

If we could tighten up in defence we would be so far ahead of everyone it's not funny. 2 marquee sports open (guest + visa) i will never understand why we don't sign the best 2 centre backs available at the moment and just be done with it. 

ran out of likes

[tommac]

1 hour ago, coys said:

So Caceras is better then Mauk yeah?

Yeah he is- way better. He got a soft second yellow, but in no way does that mean Mauk is better than him.

[Dylan]

So Kisnorbo hurt his Achilles? That might be career ending. Wassnt he out for a year due to a ruptured Achilles?

[raw10]

15 minutes ago, heart_fan10 said:

Tonight showed we have players who can turn a game on its head when we were gone for all money at 3-0 down. Even with 10 men we were threatening 

If we could tighten up in defence we would be so far ahead of everyone it's not funny. 2 marquee sports open (guest + visa) i will never understand why we don't sign the best 2 centre backs available at the moment and just be done with it. 

this. my biggest fear is injuries to our ageing Hughes and Paddy, so we need a cb desperately now. WSW has exposed our weakness in defense playing with the current formation. Plus with Malik, Melling and Clisby (3 inexperience players) playing together for the first time, there are bound to be miscommunication, plenty of examples today with our turnovers. Its done now. We just need to look ahead and focus on the next match. I hope someone from CFG after watching this match, prepares for JvS's exit. His lack of tactical acuteness cost us 3 points tonight.

Edited January 29, 2016 by raw10

[tommac]

A few things to note: 

We can beat anyone on any given day- this has never been the case. Our attack is close to unstoppable. We didn't attack near our best, and WSW stifled our big 3 quite well. Yet, we scored 3 goals. There is no game that I wouldn't feel confident we can win with our current starting XI.

With Hughes out ( god, we must surely learn the lesson to not sign ageing outfield players from this season on) and Paddy missing early on, our defence was stretched. But which A-League team's defence wouldn't be without their 2 most experienced CB's?

I agree with others- that now is the time to utilise our guest/marquee position for the rest of this season to strengthen at CB. 

JVS said we lost the ball in bad areas and copped goals- he is spot on. 3 times we lost it, with too many players committed forward- 3 times they scored. This for me centres around Paartalu's  ( CDM) role in the team. This role should sit deep, in front of the back 3, and let Caceres and Mooy dictate the play going forward, whilst sitting in to provide protection and shift the ball from side to side, or play short passes into Mooy/Caceres where necessary. This could mean Mooy dropping deeper to play next to Caceres, and Paartalu playing behind them- inverting the triangle if you will.

 

Anyways, there is absolutely no need to give up the ghost or have a fit because we lost here. We lost 4-3 to the current league leaders away and we probably played at 65% of our capacity. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by tommac

[Murfy1]

Crazy game, finishing 3-4 away to 1st place WSW. Almost too many things to analyse. Some points though:

 

- If you said pre-game 2 of our back 3 will be different from our last match for 87 minutes--Hughes out and Kisnorbo out, so Malik-Melling-Clisby--I'd have said how many will we lose by.

- If you said our back 5 would be Retre-Malik-Melling-Clisby-Garuccio for the last 25 minutes, I'd predict a cricket score loss.

- But despite the new and unsettled defence, and despite most of our "defenders" being makeshift, we only lost by 1 goal. On reflection, it must be said a 4-3 loss away to a 1st place WSW side, especially after forced changed to 2/3s of our central defence, is a pretty respectable outcome.

- Nonetheless, we do have an injury crisis--our 3 best CBs, Chapman, Kisnorbo, Hughes--out injured. And consequently we have an emergency with our defence again. 1 cleansheet all season, and shipping 2,3 or 4 goals every game is simply too much.

- Mooy, Fornaroli and Novillo are simply f**king incredible. The best attack the A-League has ever seen, period. If the team can just defend enough--no Mourinho-esque defending required, just average 1 goal conceded per game (and the odd cleansheet)--then this team will still be a real chance to be successful this season with our superstar attacking trio up front.

- Compare our first game against WSW this season, a 3-0 loss, with this game, a 4-3 loss. In the first game, the team crumbled when things got tough, but in this game the team fought back from 3-0 to 3-2, and even when they were a player down they fought back from 4-2 to 4-3. The big increase in fight and character is most welcome, and this superior attitude could really help the team finish strongly over the final 10 games.

- Agree that our passing was a little sloppy (something that 2 new CBs didn't help with), but at the same time WSW did press effectively. And maybe their 6 days of rest as opposed to our 4 days of rest showed a little as well with regards to the intensity. Here's the passing stats (TP=Total Passes, PA=Passing Accuracy): Zullo TP 20 PA 70%, Malik TP 34 PA 67.6%, Melling TP 49 PA 73.5%, Clisby TP 37 PA 83.8%, Franjic TP 25 PA 84%, Caceres TP 52 PA 86.5%, Paartalu TP 70 PA 71.4%, Mooy TP 45 PA 75.6%.

In short, our passing was a little lower than ideal, despite the team having superior possession with 55.7% to WSW's 44.3%. Malik was the weak-link with regards to passing at the back, and Paartalu was the weakest passer in midfielder, although Paartalu did take on more responsibility and did attempt the most passes (70).

- There's a lot of room to debate the decision to persist with the 3-5-2 after Kisnorbo went off. Clearly our defensive structure didn't cope well against WSW. I probably agree that going to 4 at the back--Clisby-Melling-Malik-Franjic--probably would have been the way to go, and I reckon a front 3 (Zullo-Fornaroli-Novillo) would have pinned WSW back and relieved some pressure on our new and unconvincing defence. The counterargument is that 5 defenders at the back (as 3-5-2 becomes when the defence settles) is better than 4, and the 3-5-2 setup helped Melbourne City pull back 3 goals (an argument JVS made post-game). In hindsight I reckon a back four in 4-3-3 would have been slightly preferable. However maybe the high defensive line (which the team plays so it can proactively press our opponents in their half) was more of an issue than the number of defenders in the backline. It could be argued that we pressed too much, and should have parked our defence closer to our penalty box more often. This would have fundamentally changed the team's defensive system, and inevitably their attacking system/approach as well, but with the dramatic changes to personnel in our defence big tactical changes were arguably necessary and no significant changes to the team's tactics were made throughout the game.

 

 

All up, the defence needs to be put under the microscope again. This isn't a defence a team would want to take into the finals. With Chapman, Kisnorbo and Hughes out injured, the club would be mad to not consider further strengthening the defence. The no. 2 jersey is currently unused at our club, and I'd say that's symbolic of our lack of real defenders. The club should seriously consider using a marquee or guest spot if necessary to strengthen the defence. The equation for the rest of our season is simple: tighten up the defence, and a successful season is within reach. WSW had only conceded 2 goals over their past 4 home games, 360 minutes of football. Our injury-hit side put 3 past them at home over 90 minutes. Half the team (our attack) is near perfection, and if the defensive half can tighten up then we can at least finish Top 2 and play ACL next season, and possibly claim the club's first piece of silverware as well. So no need at all for doom and gloom, but the team must make at least a few changes to it's defence to be genuinely successful this season.