Australia Cup 2023: SF: City vs. Sydney Sunday 24 September 2023 KO 3 pm at AAMI Park

[moops]

We have no pace at all, Leckie and Nabout out play a big part in that, but we lack any pace and it shows.

Galloway really puzzles me.

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, moops said:

Galloway really puzzles me.

You aren't the only one puzzled by this

[Le Hack]

I suppose we haven't seen Natel yet so he might be pacy. Agree I don't understand Galloway situation at all, why he's still with us and why he hasn't gone. 

[jw1739]

21 minutes ago, Le Hack said:

I suppose we haven't seen Natel yet so he might be pacy. Agree I don't understand Galloway situation at all, why he's still with us and why he hasn't gone. 

My guess is that Scott is on a contract and has decided to stick it out. My puzzle is why hasn't he played? It's hard not to think that this is some spat between Scott and Rado, and again, it's poor management if this is the case. We've seen it before and these things should never get to this point. However, the last concrete news was that he's not fully fit, so we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

On the matter of pace I don't agree that our woes are the result of this. Jakolis is just as fast as Nabbout, but struggles to get any meaningful cross in. I think there are three problems:
- possession football is fine, but we play it far too slowly. Time and time again the pass is telegraphed.
- I don't think we've got the structure right,. I am struggling to see what roles Arslan and Sakhi are supposed to be playing.
- Our conversion rate of good chances to score is low. We had two perfectly gettable chances in this match before Sydney scored. Jakolis botched the first, and I forget the two players who botched the second about 7yards out and dead in front.

Sydney then scored, and the whole momentum balance of the match changed. The pressure was immediately back on us. We now had to score two goals, and at the same time not concede a second, whereas for Sydney the pressure eased - no need to score again if we defend well and keep them out. Risky yes, but the situation for the players has swung dramatically and it becomes easier for them.

IMO Rado just does not understand this. Nothing changes, not the pace, the method, the structure...we just plod along in the same old way. Not only that, I think that you can see it in the players. Of course they're giving their 110%, but to me they do not look happy.

The other point I'll make is that I feel that a certain blandness is returning to the League and the club. I note the appointment of Conroy as the Independent Chairman of APL, and he's going to "consult the fans." Hang on, wasn't each club to have a Fan Representative Group this season? Where is ours, who is on it, when does it meet? etc. etc. IMO lack of answers and information doesn't help fans feel any better.

[belaguttman]

5 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

On the matter of pace I don't agree that our woes are the result of this. Jakolis is just as fast as Nabbout, but struggles to get any meaningful cross in. I think there are three problems:
- possession football is fine, but we play it far too slowly. Time and time again the pass is telegraphed.
- I don't think we've got the structure right,. I am struggling to see what roles Arslan and Sakhi are supposed to be playing.
- Our conversion rate of good chances to score is low. We had two perfectly gettable chances in this match before Sydney scored. Jakolis botched the first, and I forget the two players who botched the second about 7yards out and dead in front.

I agree with this. I think we lack pace in our centre-backs, and the risk of losing possession is that our FBs are often advanced and have a long way to track back, so we struggle to regain defensive pace. This is more a function of the risk that comes with our style of play, but one of our DMs needs to help out the CBs, I remember Aidan O'Neill struggled with this aspect initially but quickly made this a strength of his game. In this respect, our DM's pace, positioning and decision-making in both attacking and defensive transition makes them the key players in our team performance.

One of the key features of our double winning season was our high conversion efficiency in front of goal, and it's a key area that we need to improve.

[Le Hack]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

I agree with this. I think we lack pace in our centre-backs, and the risk of losing possession is that our FBs are often advanced and have a long way to track back, so we struggle to regain defensive pace. This is more a function of the risk that comes with our style of play, but one of our DMs needs to help out the CBs, I remember Aidan O'Neill struggled with this aspect initially but quickly made this a strength of his game. In this respect, our DM's pace, positioning and decision-making in both attacking and defensive transition makes them the key players in our team performance.

One of the key features of our double winning season was our high conversion efficiency in front of goal, and it's a key area that we need to improve.

The other thing which to me seems to have gone out the door is the inverted full back or Jamo coming in to be virtually a DM. I'm not seeing this in the games I've watched, it looks like that Talbot and Behich are playing as normal FBs and if one of these is replaced with a CB we're playing like 3 at the back And I wrong?

[Zanty]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

My guess is that Scott is on a contract and has decided to stick it out. My puzzle is why hasn't he played? It's hard not to think that this is some spat between Scott and Rado

Didn't someone say he was trying to leave after Behich signed?

[jw1739]

22 minutes ago, Le Hack said:

The other thing which to me seems to have gone out the door is the inverted full back or Jamo coming in to be virtually a DM. I'm not seeing this in the games I've watched, it looks like that Talbot and Behich are playing as normal FBs and if one of these is replaced with a CB we're playing like 3 at the back And I wrong?

At Oakleigh both Talbot and Behich were coming forward as wing-backs as before. Against Sydney I think Callum was still doing it, but I saw the problem to be Souprayen almost always going right (because he seemed to me to be playing as the LHS centre back). Two left-footers doesn't work if he is one of them. Structurally we're shapeless it seems to me.

Just now, Zanty said:

Didn't someone say he was trying to leave after Behich signed?

Yes. Doesn't seem to have happened though.

[belaguttman]

27 minutes ago, Le Hack said:

The other thing which to me seems to have gone out the door is the inverted full back or Jamo coming in to be virtually a DM. I'm not seeing this in the games I've watched, it looks like that Talbot and Behich are playing as normal FBs and if one of these is replaced with a CB we're playing like 3 at the back And I wrong?

Yes, that also added one more to our mid-field and made it more difficult to overload us there and helped cover passing channels in defensive transition

[Zanty]

28 minutes ago, Le Hack said:

The other thing which to me seems to have gone out the door is the inverted full back or Jamo coming in to be virtually a DM. I'm not seeing this in the games I've watched, it looks like that Talbot and Behich are playing as normal FBs and if one of these is replaced with a CB we're playing like 3 at the back And I wrong?

When Talbot was playing LB the first couple games in preseason he inverted next to Ugarkovic and we had a back 3 of Good, Nuno & Hall at RB, now that Behich is here instead of having one of the fullbacks invert its now just Ugarkovic, don't know why Rado doesn't have Arslan go next to Ugarkovic more often as Ugarkovic literally has no one to pass forward to.

[moops]

12 hours ago, Le Hack said:

The other thing which to me seems to have gone out the door is the inverted full back or Jamo coming in to be virtually a DM. I'm not seeing this in the games I've watched, it looks like that Talbot and Behich are playing as normal FBs and if one of these is replaced with a CB we're playing like 3 at the back And I wrong?

Definitely, I've been following Ange at Tottenham and he has changed the way he plays quite a bit and I like the way he uses the FB. They offer that defensive advantage, but also create more passing availability going forward, rather than passing back to the CB. 

[moops]

On 27/09/2023 at 1:50 PM, jw1739 said:

My guess is that Scott is on a contract and has decided to stick it out. My puzzle is why hasn't he played? It's hard not to think that this is some spat between Scott and Rado, and again, it's poor management if this is the case. We've seen it before and these things should never get to this point. However, the last concrete news was that he's not fully fit, so we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

On the matter of pace I don't agree that our woes are the result of this. Jakolis is just as fast as Nabbout, but struggles to get any meaningful cross in. I think there are three problems:
- possession football is fine, but we play it far too slowly. Time and time again the pass is telegraphed.
- I don't think we've got the structure right,. I am struggling to see what roles Arslan and Sakhi are supposed to be playing.
- Our conversion rate of good chances to score is low. We had two perfectly gettable chances in this match before Sydney scored. Jakolis botched the first, and I forget the two players who botched the second about 7yards out and dead in front.

Sydney then scored, and the whole momentum balance of the match changed. The pressure was immediately back on us. We now had to score two goals, and at the same time not concede a second, whereas for Sydney the pressure eased - no need to score again if we defend well and keep them out. Risky yes, but the situation for the players has swung dramatically and it becomes easier for them.

IMO Rado just does not understand this. Nothing changes, not the pace, the method, the structure...we just plod along in the same old way. Not only that, I think that you can see it in the players. Of course they're giving their 110%, but to me they do not look happy.

The other point I'll make is that I feel that a certain blandness is returning to the League and the club. I note the appointment of Conroy as the Independent Chairman of APL, and he's going to "consult the fans." Hang on, wasn't each club to have a Fan Representative Group this season? Where is ours, who is on it, when does it meet? etc. etc. IMO lack of answers and information doesn't help fans feel any better.

Great post, I just wanted to comment on the pace thing.

From recent games Good is probably our paciest player and that's not saying much, pacey players make runs and get into passing lanes, we aren't seeing that.

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, moops said:

Great post, I just wanted to comment on the pace thing.

From recent games Good is probably our paciest player and that's not saying much, pacey players make runs and get into passing lanes, we aren't seeing that.

Absolutely right. It is so obvious once you take your eyes off the ball and look at what's in front. Against Ventforet and Sydney blatantly obvious - five players standing like traffic cones.

[belaguttman]

11 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Absolutely right. It is so obvious once you take your eyes off the ball and look at what's in front. Against Ventforet and Sydney blatantly obvious - five players standing like traffic cones.

That's why our ball progression up the field is so slow. As Cruyff said, an influential player will have the ball for 5% of the match, their biggest influence is what they do without the ball for the other 95%

[moops]

11 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Absolutely right. It is so obvious once you take your eyes off the ball and look at what's in front. Against Ventforet and Sydney blatantly obvious - five players standing like traffic cones.

Yep, those two games it was very apparent and worked against us. You can do it if you have technical players and Arslan is quite capable, the rest are not.

1 minute ago, belaguttman said:

That's why our ball progression up the field is so slow. As Cruyff said, an influential player will have the ball for 5% of the match, their biggest influence is what they do without the ball for the other 95%

I do wonder if it's just conservatism, instead of taking a risky pass, pass it back or to a safe player to retain possession.

Was that statement in regards to movement and press?

[jw1739]

36 minutes ago, moops said:

Yep, those two games it was very apparent and worked against us. You can do it if you have technical players and Arslan is quite capable, the rest are not.

I do wonder if it's just conservatism, instead of taking a risky pass, pass it back or to a safe player to retain possession.

Was that statement in regards to movement and press?

Th problem is, as I've said before, that once you go a goal down the complexion of the game changes. You now need two goals to win, whereas the opposition only have to defend and although it's risky they don't have to concern themselves with attack, at least not as much. What we do is just plod along. We just don't mix up the play enough. I'm convinced that that is not what "the City way" means. And I'm pretty certain that players don't want to play that way either.

[moops]

8 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Th problem is, as I've said before, that once you go a goal down the complexion of the game changes. You now need two goals to win, whereas the opposition only have to defend and although it's risky they don't have to concern themselves with attack, at least not as much. What we do is just plod along. We just don't mix up the play enough. I'm convinced that that is not what "the City way" means. And I'm pretty certain that players don't want to play that way either.

tbh I haven't seen City play, I've heard that one FB tucks in to defence to make a back three, while the other joins the midfield inside. The problem is when you have a star studded team the options are numerous, players will do well whatever, it kind of takes the fun out of it.

That's why I'm intrigued with Tottenham, half a team playing a totally different system, it all comes down to coaching and how the team is set up.

As I've said so many times our movement is terrible and always has been, to pass forward players need to move into spaces to receive the ball, but you are right, our players seem to just plod around.

[moops]

I've also noticed A league coaches aren't good with rest defence, it's either rigid full on, or non existent, and we flirt with the two.

[Mr MO]

17 hours ago, moops said:

Yep, those two games it was very apparent and worked against us. You can do it if you have technical players and Arslan is quite capable, the rest are not.

I do wonder if it's just conservatism, instead of taking a risky pass, pass it back or to a safe player to retain possession.

Was that statement in regards to movement and press?

Well what to do if you know that some of your team mates don’t have the pace to run after a ball or don’t have the technique to control a ball or hold up play? You would think twice before playing that pass, opportunity gone and we keep passing it around.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Mr MO

[belaguttman]

20 hours ago, moops said:

Was that statement in regards to movement and press?

Yes, once we win the ball, our first pass in attacking transition is often back, if not our second pass is back. OK if there's a player making a third man run, but that's the movement off the ball that we aren't seeing at the moment

[jw1739]

37 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Yes, once we win the ball, our first pass in attacking transition is often back, if not our second pass is back. OK if there's a player making a third man run, but that's the movement off the ball that we aren't seeing at the moment

@belaguttman IMO it's reached the obsessive stage. Even our throw-ins and free kicks usually go backwards.

[malloy]

3 hours ago, belaguttman said:

Yes, once we win the ball, our first pass in attacking transition is often back, if not our second pass is back. OK if there's a player making a third man run, but that's the movement off the ball that we aren't seeing at the moment

You will notice it tends to be in the CF position that we are lacking in proper off the ball movement.

JMac's movement is largely that of a second striker playing off a number 9, except he is meant to be the number 9.

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, malloy said:

You will notice it tends to be in the CF position that we are lacking in proper off the ball movement.

JMac's movement is largely that of a second striker playing off a number 9, except he is meant to be the number 9.

And we can’t really use him in build up play either which hurts at times when you trying out play your opponent with posession play. Especially if your wingers can’t make an impact, it was largely Leckie last season who turned some games around for us. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Mr MO