Shahanga Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 OK we were discussing this in the takeover thread, but clearly it should have it's own. Craig Foster wrote this article: http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/craig-foster/blog/1183370/Time-to-stop-the-high-cost-rot The Private 'Academy' system is the hidden underbelly of our game. Something no one wants to discuss much less expose, because there are too many webs of self interest; people making millions of dollars with interests to protect. The club system is unable to cope. Les and I spoke about this on Shootout this week: It seems administrators are powerless to stop the spread of expensive academies as people look to take a slice out of the game. We must make a stand and find a solution. One of the wonderful parts of opening these types of taboo discussions is that the community responds with great enthusiasm and passion, for and against. Since voicing my concern over the past week, I have received hundreds of emails, messages and calls with not just support, but horror stories which really dig into how deep the problem is. Deeper than I ever imagined. :: Academies promoting clubs abroad for which it costs thousands of euros for your son to be ‘assessed’ for a career. :: Trials abroad for which parents are sold the dream and made to cough up to chase it. :: Kids forced to pay for academies at Premier league clubs all around the country for ‘extra training’ they should already be receiving within the club environment. :: Bus-loads of Aussies turning up overseas at clubs for trials en masse, a whole industry of flogging kids abroad, a tiny percentage ever securing a contract of any type, the rest funding the lifestyles of the sharks who prey on the game. Pay, pay, pay. That’s what we have become, an industry, no longer a game. Grass roots clubs can’t cope. They are unable to keep costs down, are struggling to pay quality coaches and often training is not enough. This forces the kids into the paying system. The goal has to be that every child is able to get the requisite education of sufficient quality and quantity in the club or school system, without having to fork out thousands of dollars in a game that is already incredibly expensive, and becoming more so. The 'user pays' mentality also creates an entitlement among players and parents that is not conducive to proper youth development. The ‘We pay so we can do as we please’ attitude is a natural consequence of having to fork out for any training a child. It is damaging the good coach's ability to teach and promote the correct developmental environment. The system also leads to all these academies attacking one another in order to attract or retain paying customers. If you want a parent to pay, how can you say the coach over there knows what he or she is doing? Not possible, is it? Everyone has to know less than you, every other environment must be below yours, and that includes the system programs. If you want to keep a kid from NSWIS, or SASI for example, you can hardly say they’re doing a great job. Commerce requires justification. Many parents are out of control in a game that actively sells the overseas dream and tells them their kid is a potential star. Stories abound of parents paying for their kids to be in premier league teams. The whole system is rotten, if you dig deep enough. The problem is we have entrenched the paying mentality within the game. It has become an expectation that if your kid is talented, and even if not because you may be led to believe so anyway, you will have to ‘find the money’ to have him trained. Of course there are some excellent coaches in all aspects of the game, but there are also a lot of inexperienced and poorly-trained people charging thousands of dollars to parents who wouldn’t know the difference. Imagine this if you will. A system where every child receives free or extremely low cost, subsidised football education in the school or association system. A system where those chosen for higher honors receive free training. What would this do to our culture by taking away the financial imperative? What would this do to our quality by retaining the talent? And to our prospects by broadening the base of properly-trained players? It has to be our junior game's future. If just a fraction of the money parents are squandering on academies was poured into the clubs and redistributed appropriately, this would become a reality and we could afford to employ high quality coaches at every stage of the game. We need a National summit on the ‘user pays’ issue to get to the bottom of what is happening, and how we can change the system for the better. Every child has a right to play and learn football without exorbitant cost, and it is our obligation to provide it. If we can’t, or lack the will to force change, we have failed the future of the game. ---------------- To me there are a few things that need to be addressed: The high cost of rep football. Really playing for your state should be free. The practice of some clubs subsidising their seniors with junior fees. This is simply criminal. The NPL is trying to ban this obnoxious practice. The standard of coaching. FFA having been working on this for a while, but I still come across "big kick Johnny" sides and, my special favourite, those that think the game is an offshoot of Greco-Roman wrestling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliMate Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 It's not just the juniors. *2014 TEAM ENTRY FEES (prices inclusive of GST) Men’s State League 1 - $7800 (fee reduced by $1000 from 2013 Men’s State League 2 - $6400 (fee reduced by $1200 from 2013) Men’s State League 3 - $5400 (fee reduced by $800 from 2013) Men’s State League 4 - $3500 (fee reduced by $1700 from 2013) Men’s State League 5 - $3100 (fee increased by $200 from 2013) Bear in mind this is simply the fees to be allowed to play under the FFV. Doesn't include ground hire, referees, kits and all the other expenses needed to run 2 senior teams. FFV looking at about easily over a million in revenue from local kick-about sides just registering to play ffs. Would love to know where that actually goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Surely the clubs demand to know where the money goes? My guess is that we are taking one of the simplest games in the world and overlaying it with layer after layer of regulation, administration and complexity, and thereby cost. A glance at the FFV annual report tends to confirm that. Thank God I learned the game on an asphalt school playground with a tennis ball, and up in the park with a couple of jackets as goal posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliMate Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 My guess is that we are taking one of the simplest games in the world and overlaying it with layer after layer of regulation, administration and complexity, and thereby cost. A glance at the FFV annual report tends to confirm that. That's not a guess that's spot on. A good example is when I was in Croatia, every night there was games being played on concrete futsal pitches located in the villages amongst the kids. They would play for 4-5 hours a night, just a simple futsal game. Saw 11 year olds with better technique than 95% of players playing in premier junior comps in Australia and that's because they learnt to play without coaches and all these restrictions etc., had 11 year olds playing against 18 year olds (god forbid that happens in Australia because little Jimmy might graze his leg against the big boys). Yet in Australia we must pay thousands to see kids get 'developed' into elite players by scam coaches only in it for their personal interests. This overregulation will kill our national teams eventually. Don't want to hear this 'oh but Australia is so developed, kids with technology these days, would rather just play their consoles etc.', all of these kids in Croatia have phones, PS3's etc. but would rather have a kick. Talent identification in this country is horrendous aswell. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahanga Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Mali mate, the thing is what you are talking about would be ILLEGAL in Australia, such is the nanny state we have allowed ourselves to become. It illegal for a kid to walk to school by themselves for FFS. (I wish i was joking). The over regulation of football must be seen in this context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Polak Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) My brother only made part time with the NTC and has to play for a club, he sided with one that is within the npl, from what I saw today at a friendly, parents were fuming at the $2,500 fee since they don't see any signs of moving forward for this so called elite league. A meeting was held and parents didn't even get a clear answer where this is all going (electricity bills, wages blah blah blah) I'm going to play senior state league 3 in hockey and only had to pay $415. FFA / FFV are fucking criminals Edited March 9, 2014 by Young Polak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnno cpfc Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) As i said in another thread, the case of a young player selected for NSW rep side had to drop out as his single parent mother could not keep affording the travel and accomodation costs along with the ridiculous administration costs, registration etc so that young fellow who i knew was a very good prospect for the future is now a very good prospect for the AFL and it costs the parent NOTHING !!! So if one code can do it why oh why cannot the FFA. As JW139 has said like him i learned to play in the school playground (tarmac) with a tennis ball and twenty a side bruises grazes and i loved every minute. Edited March 10, 2014 by johnno cpfc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I have forked out $650 or thereabouts for two of my sons and I to play this year. As I think twice to break $5.00, I believe that registration is quite expensive. If the knees go again it will prove to be a very expensive outlay. Hopefully in that case the income protection (with registration, not the private one) will cover things. As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Also, do the juniors at the top end of the Victorian competitions get any sort of sponsorships/rebates from clubs to attract them? I believe this is the case with seniors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 It's not just the juniors. *2014 TEAM ENTRY FEES (prices inclusive of GST) Men’s State League 1 - $7800 (fee reduced by $1000 from 2013 Men’s State League 2 - $6400 (fee reduced by $1200 from 2013) Men’s State League 3 - $5400 (fee reduced by $800 from 2013) Men’s State League 4 - $3500 (fee reduced by $1700 from 2013) Men’s State League 5 - $3100 (fee increased by $200 from 2013) Bear in mind this is simply the fees to be allowed to play under the FFV. Doesn't include ground hire, referees, kits and all the other expenses needed to run 2 senior teams. FFV looking at about easily over a million in revenue from local kick-about sides just registering to play ffs. Would love to know where that actually goes. So I can effectively make my own team from scratch for $3100 and the FFV would allow me to have my team entered in the FFV state 5? Surely it can't be that easy and FFV has to decide whether or not the club is needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliMate Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) It's not just the juniors. *2014 TEAM ENTRY FEES (prices inclusive of GST) Men’s State League 1 - $7800 (fee reduced by $1000 from 2013 Men’s State League 2 - $6400 (fee reduced by $1200 from 2013) Men’s State League 3 - $5400 (fee reduced by $800 from 2013) Men’s State League 4 - $3500 (fee reduced by $1700 from 2013) Men’s State League 5 - $3100 (fee increased by $200 from 2013) Bear in mind this is simply the fees to be allowed to play under the FFV. Doesn't include ground hire, referees, kits and all the other expenses needed to run 2 senior teams. FFV looking at about easily over a million in revenue from local kick-about sides just registering to play ffs. Would love to know where that actually goes. So I can effectively make my own team from scratch for $3100 and the FFV would allow me to have my team entered in the FFV state 5? Surely it can't be that easy and FFV has to decide whether or not the club is needed? No, you'd have to meet the requirements of facilities, players etc., yes anyone can just make a club (See Essendon United est. 2008) but you have to prove that you have the facilities, volunteers, players for 2 teams and all the other small shit like uniform, equipment, canteen facilities and a form of fencing around the ground amongst other things. I'm sure you'd also have to show them that you are able to meet payments of ground hire, referees (not cheap) etc. EDIT - here it is http://www.footballfedvic.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Competitions/Rules_and_Regulations/2014_Rules_of_Competitions_Only.pdf Edited March 10, 2014 by MaliMate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ando Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 My brother only made part time with the NTC and has to play for a club, he sided with one that is within the npl, from what I saw today at a friendly, parents were fuming at the $2,500 fee since they don't see any signs of moving forward for this so called elite league. A meeting was held and parents didn't even get a clear answer where this is all going (electricity bills, wages blah blah blah) I'm going to play senior state league 3 in hockey and only had to pay $415. FFA / FFV are fucking criminals In all fairness to our cheap fees, hockey is a sport that requires a high level of technical skill, but we currently don't have adequate structures of development. Maybe 7-8 Premier League clubs have good development structures in place, whereas the rest is generally as hoc and run by parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malloy Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 It's not just the juniors. *2014 TEAM ENTRY FEES (prices inclusive of GST) Men’s State League 1 - $7800 (fee reduced by $1000 from 2013 Men’s State League 2 - $6400 (fee reduced by $1200 from 2013) Men’s State League 3 - $5400 (fee reduced by $800 from 2013) Men’s State League 4 - $3500 (fee reduced by $1700 from 2013) Men’s State League 5 - $3100 (fee increased by $200 from 2013) Bear in mind this is simply the fees to be allowed to play under the FFV. Doesn't include ground hire, referees, kits and all the other expenses needed to run 2 senior teams. FFV looking at about easily over a million in revenue from local kick-about sides just registering to play ffs. Would love to know where that actually goes. So I can effectively make my own team from scratch for $3100 and the FFV would allow me to have my team entered in the FFV state 5? Surely it can't be that easy and FFV has to decide whether or not the club is needed? No, you'd have to meet the requirements of facilities, players etc., yes anyone can just make a club (See Essendon United est. 2008) but you have to prove that you have the facilities, volunteers, players for 2 teams and all the other small shit like uniform, equipment, canteen facilities and a form of fencing around the ground amongst other things. I'm sure you'd also have to show them that you are able to meet payments of ground hire, referees (not cheap) etc. EDIT - here it is http://www.footballfedvic.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Competitions/Rules_and_Regulations/2014_Rules_of_Competitions_Only.pdf FFV won't let you create a club if they see it as detrimental to another existing club in that area. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mus-28 Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Prahran City play in State 5 and don't have a home ground. Played every game away last season, not sure if they've got anything sorted for this year though. Guessing they previously had a home ground and FFV let it slide. Surprised at Montrose & Chelsea moving from Bayside League to FFV, they were hardly setting the Bayside League alight last season, guessing they want to keep their juniors and seniors both affiliated to the same comp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petercrouch Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Prahran City play in State 5 and don't have a home ground. Played every game away last season, not sure if they've got anything sorted for this year though. Guessing they previously had a home ground and FFV let it slide. Surprised at Montrose & Chelsea moving from Bayside League to FFV, they were hardly setting the Bayside League alight last season, guessing they want to keep their juniors and seniors both affiliated to the same comp. Probably got sick of getting in fights with seaford every week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Montrose, Lilydale Eagles and Healsville all joining State 5 East. A lot of room for players in the outer eastern suburbs. I know Lilydale Eagles is looking to further strengthen it's playing ranks if anyone is looking for a club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballism Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) A good article on this subject: http://melbournesoccer.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/the-great-football-swindle.html and a bit more by the same bloke when FFV reduced their fees: http://melbournesoccer.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/still-big-swindle.html Those figures you posted MaliMate don't include player registration fees which is close to $200 per person (regardless of league). So for a squad of 30 players to play in state 5 you're looking at around $300 per person going straight to FFV/FFA before all the other expenses you mentioned. This is about $15 a game per player or over $400 each weekend for a club. Considering insurance is included in the $200 I too would be interested to know where those "team entry fees" go. I understand it probably takes a fair amount of effort, time and organisation to produce the fixtures, appoint referees (Not pay them though, that's another expense for the clubs on match day), and so on. But surely this doesn't cost up to $7800 per team - or $93,600 per league - to organise? FWIW, I have heard the FFV funds the Melbourne Victory W-League team so I wonder what else our exorbitant fees subsidise. Anyway, I don't think this thread is really about the price of playing for hacks like me that just want a semi-serious organised kick about but more about the price of playing for juniors and developing potential future socceroos/professional players. Like mentioned in the OP, part of the reason junior football is so expensive is because they are quite often subsidising the cost of the seniors. Not sure I'd say the NPL is trying to ban this though considering the cap is $2200 for junior players (what would rego be at these clubs if there was no cap?). The federations should be making football as cheap as possible and get kids playing as much as possible, instead of worrying about 'curriculums,' forcing clubs to hire qualified coaches, etc. I'm sure the Brazil national team is so strong because of their strong national curriculum and highly qualified coaches and not the fact that kids there play on the streets for hours every night... Provide a competitive league structure where there is real motivation and reward to finish as high up as you can (i.e prize money), rather than just making it more expensive the higher you go up. Encourage clubs to produce youth rather than just poach the best players when they get to 17/18 etc. Maybe cap how much clubs charge for juniors but this really shouldn't be an issue if there is obvious benefit to producing your own players. Obviously this is all easier said than done and I'm sure the FFV bosses aren't simply just pocketing all the profits but it's clear a lot of money is getting wasted on things that aren't in grassroots clubs best interests. I'm not sure it's definitely happening but grassroot clubs shouldn't be paying for professional clubs wages (like MV's W-League team), all club's should be able to live within their means, even if that results in less quality at the top. Likely nothing will really happen to dramatically change all this though as those at the top, including club administrators, seem more than happy with their slice of the pie. Edited March 12, 2014 by Footballism 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cross Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Soccer has become a rich man's sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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