Asian Champions League

[Murfy1]

A few things. Bit of a long post.

 

As I attempted to explain in the 'Player Contracts' thread, the A-League squad limit is 26 players, or more exactly 23+3 players (with the +3 being 3 NYL players that can be signed from an A-League club's NYL team on minimum wages).

 

Nonetheless, I'm supportive of getting rid of the limit of 23 (or 26) players, though (although I don't think it's too important, as 23+3 seems like a fairly reasonable squad size IMO). I think the salary cap effectively limits A-League teams to have roughly that squad size, or squads just a little bit larger, anyway, so IMO having an actual rule that limits squads to 23+3 is superfluous, and they should just get rid of it.

 

I don't expect the rule limiting squad to 23+3 players to be abolished though, as the PFA would be strongly against it. But in theory I think it would be reasonable to get rid of that rule.

 

On Falastur's questions:

 

The drop off between the A-League and the NPL (also known as the state leagues) and the NYL is significant. Only a few players come from the NPL clubs into the A-League, and those few players don't consistently do well in the A-League IMO. Also, here's the past 5 NYL players of the year: Awer Mabil, Nick Fitzgerald, Steven Lustica, Panni Nikas, Adam Sarota. 1 of those players has done very well (Sarota), 1 couldn't even get an A-League contract (Nikas), and the other 3 are having mixed results in the A-League. 

 

NYL teams are treated as separate teams, with their own coaches and they compete in their own league (the National Youth League, NYL).

 

I'm pretty certain that A-League clubs can field as many NYL players a they want in their senior teams, but they often only play NYL players if senior team players are injured. I think the small benches in the A-League (5 players, so 1 GK and 4 outfield players. And before this season there was only 4 player benches!) limit the game time that young players and NYL players get, and if there were slightly larger benches more young players would make the benches and get subbed on (because if a coach only has a bench of 3-4 outfield players, they always have their older players on the bench). I also think that too few A-League coaches trust their young and NYL players to play well in the A-League, so they by default play older players instead.

 

 

As for A-League squads being too small, I'm of the opinion that they are too small for A-League clubs to seriously compete in both the A-League and the Asian Champions League. Many ACL teams, and especially those teams do very well in the ACL, like Guangzhou Evergrande, FC Seoul, Ulsan Hyundai FC, have senior squads of 40 players, and then reserve and/or youth teams of at least 20 players. Couple with that A-League matches on weekends and the very long distances teams have to travel in the ACL, I'm of the opinion that A-League clubs are at a significant disadvantage in the ACL due to them having smaller squads (and also, which is probably equally as disadvantageous, cheaper squads due to the salary cap).

As for 23-26 players for the A-League and FFA cup, I think that squad size is about right, but a few more players would probably be a bit more ideal. More importantly though is that A-League clubs need to keep improving their scouting and player recruitment. A-League teams have made big strides here, and they don't sign nearly as many duds as they used to, but still there's room for improvement, and I think that A-League squads could get significantly more out of their 23-26 player squads if scouting and recruitment improved a bit more (I don't think most A-League teams have any full time scouts. So ample room for improvement). And hopefully Melbourne Heart will lead the way next season, with a good scouting network and recruiting team lifting those standards.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Murfy1

[NewConvert]

I know that limiting the player squad and salary caps are recent inventions borrowed from the NFL. I can understand the salary cap but I have never understood the player cap. For the VFL I remember when Essendon had a squad of about 80+ players. Now most of those never saw senior action but when the AFL came into existence one of the first things they did was to limit the squad size. Now I can only presume (and this is just a guess) that by limiting squad size contracted players get more game time making them better and thus improving the end product. It also means that they could afford to pay bigger salaries to players enabling them to become full time professionals.

If so, then I think that keeping the squad size to a reasonable number should be kept. Of course what is a reasonable number can be debated.

[Peter]

I still maintain that we need a reserves competition for the first team squad players not getting a game and for the NYL boys who are shining.

Cost is an issue, but so is having so many "there about" players dropping off the radar with lack of opportunity over a medium term.

[HEARTinator]

Now I can only presume (and this is just a guess) that by limiting squad size contracted players get more game time making them better and thus improving the end product. It also means that they could afford to pay bigger salaries to players enabling them to become full time professionals.

If so, then I think that keeping the squad size to a reasonable number should be kept. Of course what is a reasonable number can be debated.

I think you'll find this is correct. The push for a fully professional Australian football competition was advocated by the players association when they published their blueprint for a new league to replace the NSL

http://www.pfa.net.au/fileadmin/user_upload/_temp_/FORTHEFANS.pdf

The intention was to have professional players earning a decent living. So you have a salary cap and an upper limit on the number of players. The document is very interesting reading, 12 years after it was released. You'll see they suggested two teams in Melbourne from day one.

[Falastur]

Thanks for the answers, guys. I have to say that I broadly agree with whoever wrote the article about Aussie players not getting mentally pushed enough compared to other leagues, that jw1739 linked. I was always a little suspicious - no insult intended - of leagues with no promotion/relegation, because it feels like there's not enough punishment for failure, and players should always be pushing themselves towards the next level rather than being allowed to get comfortable where they are. I'll leave it to you guys to debate the relative merits of the squad cap etc though as I don't think I'm used enough to exactly how much the travel and weather takes it out of players in Australia compared to over here in the UK.

[NewConvert]

 

Now I can only presume (and this is just a guess) that by limiting squad size contracted players get more game time making them better and thus improving the end product. It also means that they could afford to pay bigger salaries to players enabling them to become full time professionals.

If so, then I think that keeping the squad size to a reasonable number should be kept. Of course what is a reasonable number can be debated.

I think you'll find this is correct. The push for a fully professional Australian football competition was advocated by the players association when they published their blueprint for a new league to replace the NSL

http://www.pfa.net.au/fileadmin/user_upload/_temp_/FORTHEFANS.pdf

The intention was to have professional players earning a decent living. So you have a salary cap and an upper limit on the number of players. The document is very interesting reading, 12 years after it was released. You'll see they suggested two teams in Melbourne from day one.

 

 

Thanks for that. I suppose if clubs were to have bigger squads then this means tat revenues will need to increase conmesurately.

[Tommykins]

Firstly, the NPL clubs have only just started in their current guise and really shouldn't be included in anyone's assumption about the gap in quality between the state leagues and the A-League. In addition to that, three of the starters in our national teams most recent game against Ecuador came from the Victorian State Leagues (Leckie, Davidson and Franjic, a weaker case can be made for Spiranovic who played briefly at North Geelong), none of whom recieved any assistance from the Australian system (although the Davidson situation is somewhat unique due to his time spent in the Japanese system). So to discount the State Leagues as a breeding ground for good young footballers is so far off the mark its not funny. There is quality going around, but talent is misidentified at a younger level, I'd argue its getting better, but I still see far too many players rewarded for playing fashionable football, rather then the better footballers. 

 

As for the NYL, its a vital stepping stone which unfortunately is currently the only direct pathway into an A-League squad, where realistically, clubs should be having the opportunities to get at players at a much younger age bracket, but it will all come in time.

[NewConvert]

Perhaps the FFA may consider to extend the YL season to 27 matches plus a finals series to be on the same footng with the seniors. Another option would be to have the A-League clubs form some type of partnership with the NPL clubs where A-League players can play full games - much like some the AFL teams had done with the VFL clubs. But ultimately it will come down to the revenues raised to support the players being profesionals.

[jw1739]

There needs to be extra salary made available just for the ACL squads as this would allow the Aussie teams to compete whilst also  allowing the A League to remain viable.

 

The salary cap applies to the A-League. Clubs can and do sign additional players for their ACL squads.

 

Before he came to Heart, David WIlliams was with Sydney just for their ACL campaign.

 

Likewise a few weeks ago Golgol went to WSW for their ACL campaign.

Perhaps the FFA may consider to extend the YL season to 27 matches plus a finals series to be on the same footng with the seniors. Another option would be to have the A-League clubs form some type of partnership with the NPL clubs where A-League players can play full games - much like some the AFL teams had done with the VFL clubs. But ultimately it will come down to the revenues raised to support the players being profesionals.

IIRC the NYL finals were abandoned after season 2010-2011, and the number of matches reduced as well. As I understand it on the grounds of costs.

[Melburnian]

I would love to be one of the only A League teams to take it seriously and challenge.

If Adelaide can make a final, it's possible to win the thing.

The thinking and culture needs to be about us winning the ACL. That has to be the aim.

I'm watching Victory getting battered here even though they drew and West Sydney throwing a b team together for their game.

I want us to be the first to win from Australia. Set the standard.

Champions of Asia has a great ring to it.

[Attack11]

I think once an Australian team wins the ACL, the attitude towards it will change.

Our goal should be to become the first Aust. Team to win it..

[Heart of Melbourne]

Let's make the top six first

[Blackout]

Even if A-League sides were regularly progressing from the group stage I'd be happy. This page shows how far the A-League sides progressed each year, apart from Adelaide it's pretty damning.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_clubs_in_the_AFC_Champions_League

[MaliMate]

Imagine our crowd attendance when we make the ACL. Victory is arguably the biggest drawcard in the league and they got 6k last night (just said on SEN then)

[Grimey]

Imagine our crowd attendance when we make the ACL. Victory is arguably the biggest drawcard in the league and they got 6k last night (just said on SEN then)

The positive to take from the fact we're yet to play in the ACL is that there it has no reputation amongst our fans. It could be whatever we want it to be. Promote the hell out of it and aim for a comparable crowd figure to our domestic matches.. win a few and go from there

[Parrot]

I'm surprised by how our teams are going so far.

 

With Victory beating J League team Yokohama F Marinos last night, which has won its first 3 games in the J League, for the first time ever Japanese teams have now lost two games in a row to A League sides.

Central Coast Mariners beat J League giants Sanfrecce Hiroshima 2-1 last week.

 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Parrot

[MaliMate]

Still doubt any of them will get through their groups anyway.

[alexli]

I'm surprised by how our teams are going so far.

 

With Victory beating J League team Yokohama F Marinos last night, which has won its first 3 games in the J League, for the first time ever Japanese teams have now lost two games in a row to A League sides.

Central Coast Mariners beat J League giants Sanfrecce Hiroshima 2-1 last week.

 

Yes, A-league team won over 2 J-league team, but look at Yokohama or Hiroshima's teamsheet, there are only 4 or 5 starter, Yokohama did not even bring Shunsuke Nakamura to Melbourne. 

[jw1739]

There's just zero media coverage of the ACL at least here in Melbourne. Once we get to this time of the year with the AFL season starting, almost no other sport gets a look in. It's hard enough to get coverage of the A-League at this time of year, let alone the ACL. Spreading 5 A-League matches over 3 days doesn't help, either - just reduces football to "minority sport" status on each of three days.

 

Plenty of issues for FFA to work on...

[Shahanga]

There's just zero media coverage of the ACL at least here in Melbourne. Once we get to this time of the year with the AFL season starting, almost no other sport gets a look in. It's hard enough to get coverage of the A-League at this time of year, let alone the ACL. Spreading 5 A-League matches over 3 days doesn't help, either - just reduces football to "minority sport" status on each of three days.

 

Plenty of issues for FFA to work on...

Hardly a surprise when the AFL gets 10 pages in their off season!  (Honestly living in this city pre-internet days was SO painful, I remember that year noting that the District cricket final got more coverage than the Sheffield Shield final!) 

[xXJawsaXx]

I think part of the problem is that A-League clubs (and their supporters) don't see the Champions League as important. It is certainly changing, but it doesn't help when the supposed 'biggest club in the league' only draws 6-8 thousand to a game.

[NewConvert]

I think part of the problem is that A-League clubs (and their supporters) don't see the Champions League as important. It is certainly changing, but it doesn't help when the supposed 'biggest club in the league' only draws 6-8 thousand to a game.

 

The VFL/AFL have tried midweek matches in the past but have never attracted a crowd which is why they were discontinued. I note that this season the AFL is again experimenting with it at Foxtel's urging.

 

So I suspect that the sporting culture in this city is reserved for the weekend, hence the lack of attendance at the ACL games. The lack of knowledge about Asian clubs does not help either.

 

It would be interesting to know the match attendances in some of the Asian countries both for the ACL and their regular season.

[Fentonthescreamingcactus]

League Nation Sports Attendance
01 AFL Australia Aussie Rules 32,748
02 NPB Japan Baseball 25,626
03 Super League China Football 18,740
04 J-League 1 Japan Football 17,566
05 NRL Australia Rugby 17,346
06 KBO Korea Baseball 13,451
07 A-League Australia Football 12,556
08 Super League Indonesia Football 11,566
09 Premier League Iran Football 9,700
10 V-League Vietnam Football 7,298
11 K-League Korea Football 7,157
12 Super League Malaysia Football 6,914
13 Uzbek Leagie Uzbekistan Football 6,911
14 J-League 2 Japan Football 6,696
15 PBA Philippines Basketball 6,647
16 NBL Australia Basketball 5,397
17 Top League Japan Rugby 4,881
18 Premier League Thailand Football 4,572
19 League One China Football 4,306
20 CBA China Basketball 4,296

 

top 20 average attendance for sport leagues in asia from 2012

[NewConvert]

League Nation Sports Attendance

01 AFL Australia Aussie Rules 32,748

02 NPB Japan Baseball 25,626

03 Super League China Football 18,740

04 J-League 1 Japan Football 17,566

05 NRL Australia Rugby 17,346

06 KBO Korea Baseball 13,451

07 A-League Australia Football 12,556

08 Super League Indonesia Football 11,566

09 Premier League Iran Football 9,700

10 V-League Vietnam Football 7,298

11 K-League Korea Football 7,157

12 Super League Malaysia Football 6,914

13 Uzbek Leagie Uzbekistan Football 6,911

14 J-League 2 Japan Football 6,696

15 PBA Philippines Basketball 6,647

16 NBL Australia Basketball 5,397

17 Top League Japan Rugby 4,881

18 Premier League Thailand Football 4,572

19 League One China Football 4,306

20 CBA China Basketball 4,296

 

top 20 average attendance for sport leagues in asia from 2012

 

Wow! Did not realise that the A-League is in the top 10!

[xXJawsaXx]

To be fair, compared to many other football leagues around the world the A-League doesn't do too bad. It is just that we are comparing ourselves to the AFL, whose average attendance is top 3-4 in the world.

[malloy]

To be fair, compared to many other football leagues around the world the A-League doesn't do too bad. It is just that we are comparing ourselves to the AFL, whose average attendance is top 3-4 in the world.

Those attendances wouldnt be too bad if all clubs were averaging that and most teams didnt play in an oversized stadium that costs a shitload to hire

[xXJawsaXx]

 

To be fair, compared to many other football leagues around the world the A-League doesn't do too bad. It is just that we are comparing ourselves to the AFL, whose average attendance is top 3-4 in the world.

Those attendances wouldnt be too bad if all clubs were averaging that and most teams didnt play in an oversized stadium that costs a shitload to hire

 

That's true, but we aren't the only league like that. The J-League is the same, for example, Hiroshima play in a 60k stadium but only average crowds of 18k. Also, whilst not ideal (I'd rather we regularly get 12k like the average), a lot of leagues are the same.