David Williams

[markn]

when we first signed shroj i blew a gasket! he was rubbish at perth and was rubbish last year. he was the most over-rated player we had. BUT this year he has got alot better. although at times his second touch is a tackle, and he lacks vision when he has pthe ball - paticuarly when trying to work out where the defenders are comming from.

if i has to let one go (williams or shroj) - i would release shroj. we all know what williams can do. the best shroj can offer is "average" in comparison.

[cadete]

when we first signed shroj i blew a gasket! he was rubbish at perth and was rubbish last year. he was the most over-rated player we had. BUT this year he has got alot better. although at times his second touch is a tackle, and he lacks vision when he has pthe ball - paticuarly when trying to work out where the defenders are comming from.

if i has to let one go (williams or shroj) - i would release shroj. we all know what williams can do. the best shroj can offer is "average" in comparison.

Shroj is not over rated – Nobody will ever claim he is master of the beautiful game.

His a workman required to do the same thankless job week after week.

He does this job in a no nonsense way largely at the same passable level week after week.

His never going to become a better player, his never going to be in the highlights reel, kids are not going to rush out to get his number on his back - But importantly he does his job which all that is asked of him.

Williams on the other hand does not do his job.

As an attacking winger when on the ground he has not been a solid contributor at all this season to the scoring of goals whether it be of his own boot or in the assisting of others.

His whole year has been a complete struggle and he has deservedly been left out of the team when others are available for a good reason as he has fallen short of the expectations of his position.

So why would you let loose one player does his job albeit in a dour way, over one who never does?

Esp when we have more wingers in our senior squad than any other in our league.

[mg91]

Players like Shroj allow guys like Fred, Thompson, Marrone and Behich to bomb forward. He covers everything. Not particularly good at anything, but like Cadete says, he just does a job for the team, a job which allows Heart's best to give us more offensively.

[Hendo]

Have more faith in the indigineous you racist cunts.

[mario]

Have more faith in the indigineous you racist cunts.

Thats truely SAD!!!

Your the only one that has brought that into the equation!

Are you the racist and do you feel he should be able to play indefinately because of his race?

And is that reverse racism??? Are you saying its ok to sack every other race??

[markn]

Shroj is not over rated – Nobody will ever claim he is master of the beautiful game.

His a workman required to do the same thankless job week after week.

He does this job in a no nonsense way largely at the same passable level week after week.

His never going to become a better player, his never going to be in the highlights reel, kids are not going to rush out to get his number on his back - But importantly he does his job which all that is asked of him.

Williams on the other hand does not do his job.

As an attacking winger when on the ground he has not been a solid contributor at all this season to the scoring of goals whether it be of his own boot or in the assisting of others.

His whole year has been a complete struggle and he has deservedly been left out of the team when others are available for a good reason as he has fallen short of the expectations of his position.

So why would you let loose one player does his job albeit in a dour way, over one who never does?

Esp when we have more wingers in our senior squad than any other in our league.

As you state, Shroj is a "bit player". Never going to be any better than he is now. My argument is that players like Shroj can be easily replaced. It is very hard to find an attacker . Williams is an attacker, and with time and alot of faith he will return to form.

to me it's simple - is it harder to find a defensive mid or a wide attacker? dm's are everywhere - wa's are a dime a dozen.

[cadete]

As you state, Shroj is a "bit player". Never going to be any better than he is now. My argument is that players like Shroj can be easily replaced. It is very hard to find an attacker . Williams is an attacker, and with time and alot of faith he will return to form.

to me it's simple - is it harder to find a defensive mid or a wide attacker? dm's are everywhere - wa's are a dime a dozen.

Are you really serious???

One player performs his position (DM) adequately, does his job and ticks all of the boxes most times week after week...

But to you he is of lesser value in your mind to a player who has yet to perform any of the above in his position – due to in your mind of his position of “Attacker” being harder to find.

Under this logic Patrick Vieira was of less worth to Arsenal than Kanu (Mind you he could actually play unlike Williams) in Arsenal’s championship period.

At a EPL level this is same situation as you have described as one was Nuts and Bolts Central Midfielder whilst the other was second string Attacker.

Also why are Attackers so much rarer to find in the A League than Defensive Midfielder?

Currently at Heart we have: Babalj, Maycon, Hoff, Terra, Mate, Worm, Zara, Kamal as senior listed players who can all play as “Attackers” as well as Williams.

In fact even Thompson has played on the wing and did well enough to score a goal.

We even have a few NYL players who played as well as he did in last week’s NYL game.

For Defensive Midfielders players who are most suited for this role our Germano and Shroj, and Sarkies and Thompson can play there as well.

Whilst of course so can Fred because he is a Ghod.

So in our squad we have 10 players who can be “Attackers” and 5 who can be “DM’s”, kind of shows how important Mr Shroj is to things.

[perthheart]

Is usually a litmus test on football knowledge as to how fans rate DM's. Shroj is consistantly at his level. Can't ask for much more. He is an A-league level DM who sticks his foot in and wins the ball or at least makes sure the opposition doesn't move it past him. If he was better in other areas he quite simply wouldn't be playing in this league. He is the kind of player managers will like because you know what you are getting from him every time he goes out on the park. If you could say that about the rest of our squad we would be in a far better position than we are. He cops it because he sprays some passes and can be caught on the ball. But in his primary role of winning the ball back he is more than acceptable.

Williams has been frustrating this season but we know he is capable of excellent things at this level. We have him on a long term contract so to right him off or sack him will only be a bad thing for the club. If we get one crap season and two good seasons from him we still come out on top.

I think he has struggled with not being the focal point of attacks as he was at FNQ. He then found himself out of the squad before having time to properly adjust. As with most players of his ilk once confidence takes a dive it can be a while before they return to the way can play because they begin playing with fear rather than off of instinct. Which is what I think we are seeing with Williams. It will only take one or two positive performances for things to change around though.

[cadete]

Completely agree about the litmus team thing with DM's, it kind of exists in AFL too...

Its just Cameron Ling, all non Geelong supporters still probably think his crap and even some Geelong supporters used to liked to bag him.

But he was Captain of that team for a reason, and they could not of won the flags without him.

Edited February 9, 2012 by cadete

[jw1739]

Shroj is consistantly at his level. Can't ask for much more. ... He is the kind of player managers will like because you know what you are getting from him every time he goes out on the park.

Williams... has struggled with not being the focal point of attacks as he was at FNQ.

Can't say I hold either player in high regard, but these are two very important points and well made. Particularly about DW - he stated quite clearly when he signed that he wanted to play as a central striker, but we've consistently played him on the wing and so it's not that surprising that we haven't seen him at his best. Perhaps our new coach will look at him differently.

Edited February 9, 2012 by jw1739

[markn]

Is usually a litmus test on football knowledge as to how fans rate DM's.

i must be confused. are you saying that if i dont rate a DM, then i am not worthy of commenting on football tactics etc?

A DM can be made from most positions. A CM, WB, CB, S, SW can all become DM's. You cannot turn a CM, WB, CB, S, SW into an attacking player.

The objective of football is to score. If you don't have players capable of scoring, then a good DM is pointless. You dont even need to play with a DM, but you MUST play with attackers. If the team structure does not require a DM, where would you play Shroj? I would imagine there is no place in the squad for him.

Granted Shroj is currently a better player than Williams, as the current form or Williams is very low. But to me if all things are equal Williams' impact on the squad would be far more important than Shroj.

[cadete]

i must be confused. are you saying that if i dont rate a DM, then i am not worthy of commenting on football tactics etc?

A DM can be made from most positions. A CM, WB, CB, S, SW can all become DM's. You cannot turn a CM, WB, CB, S, SW into an attacking player.

The objective of football is to score. If you don't have players capable of scoring, then a good DM is pointless. You dont even need to play with a DM, but you MUST play with attackers. If the team structure does not require a DM, where would you play Shroj? I would imagine there is no place in the squad for him.

Granted Shroj is currently a better player than Williams, as the current form or Williams is very low. But to me if all things are equal Williams' impact on the squad would be far more important than Shroj.

1. The objective of football is to score. If you don't have players capable of scoring, then a good DM is pointless:
   But Williams does not score - because his shit.
   
2. Granted Shroj is currently a better player than Williams, as the current form or Williams is very low. But to me if all things are equal Williams' impact on the squad:
   They are not equal and never willl be because Williams is shit.
   

[MaliMate]

Can confirm he has also been copping a few traffic infringements in club vehicles. Not sure if he paid them himself or the club had to cover him. Poor attitude.

[jw1739]

Can confirm he has also been copping a few traffic infringements in club vehicles. Not sure if he paid them himself or the club had to cover him. Poor attitude.

That's sad if that is the case. Means he is struggling to fit in. When you have senior squad players (Williams, Maycon) running around in the NYL and being ineffective there while Craig Goodwin on a NYL contract plays a blinder in the derby something is seriously amiss. Let's hope that the club can turn DW around, otherwise IMO his senior career is pretty well over. No-one's going to want him the way things are at present.

[heart_fan10]

williams and shroj are totally different players that play different roles in the team. Williams is a winger, and his position can be easily played by a number of different players in the squad (terra, worm, dugandzic, behich, zahra). Shroj is a tall defensive midfielder, and he has a large role to play and brings something different to the team. We've already seen in Shroj's absense we haven't been able to cover for him at all, where as even though williams has been shit all season, we can easily cover for his position

[heart_fan10]

i must be confused. are you saying that if i dont rate a DM, then i am not worthy of commenting on football tactics etc?

A DM can be made from most positions. A CM, WB, CB, S, SW can all become DM's. You cannot turn a CM, WB, CB, S, SW into an attacking player.

The objective of football is to score. If you don't have players capable of scoring, then a good DM is pointless. You dont even need to play with a DM, but you MUST play with attackers. If the team structure does not require a DM, where would you play Shroj? I would imagine there is no place in the squad for him.

Granted Shroj is currently a better player than Williams, as the current form or Williams is very low. But to me if all things are equal Williams' impact on the squad would be far more important than Shroj.

what's the point of scoring 4 goals when we're going to cop 4 goals?

Look at central coast right now. Top of the ladder by 7 points with a game in hand, and to be quite honest they have an average team. Their forward players aren't anywhere near the best in the league. The reason they are there is because their defensive players are very good. Great keeper, great back 4, and rostyn griffiths is a handy DM. They haven't scored the most goals in the league, in fact we've only scored 2 goals less than them, the difference is they have only conceded 15 goals while every other team has conceded in the 20's and 30's.

[perthheart]

i must be confused. are you saying that if i dont rate a DM, then i am not worthy of commenting on football tactics etc?

A DM can be made from most positions. A CM, WB, CB, S, SW can all become DM's. You cannot turn a CM, WB, CB, S, SW into an attacking player.

The objective of football is to score. If you don't have players capable of scoring, then a good DM is pointless. You dont even need to play with a DM, but you MUST play with attackers. If the team structure does not require a DM, where would you play Shroj? I would imagine there is no place in the squad for him.

Granted Shroj is currently a better player than Williams, as the current form or Williams is very low. But to me if all things are equal Williams' impact on the squad would be far more important than Shroj.

Don't think I made any broad comments like if you don't like a DM you can't comment on tactics. There are plenty of shit DM's and If Shroj was shit at breaking up attacks and getting his foot in then I would slate him too because it's all he brings to the team. If Shroj was playing at a higher level I would say he was shit as well. However, for A-league standards he is a consistant performer in his role. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your point about not neccassarily needing a DM is valid but not within the context of how Heart set up. Shroj's midfield destroyer role is probably more important than one of the wingers having an off game. We set up to have lots of options going forward so one winger being out of form will impact the team far less than Shroj getting skinned every couple of minutes. Once counter attacks move past Shroj the attacking side only has the back four in front of them usually.

Our slow build up play leaves us particularly vulnerable to quick counter attacks. If we don't have Shroj or Germano playing that role we would concede 3-4 goals fairly regularly. So your point about not needing a DM in the context of Heart seems quite bizarre to me. But thats the joys of football people see the game quite differently. You obviously come from the if you score 3 i'll score 4 school of football. Unfortunately we aren't set up for go for broke score 4-5 goals a game either.

For what it's worth when we have a fully fit midfield contingent i'd set up with Germano, Fred, Thompson. With Germano sitting deeper. Just because his better passing range outweighs Shroj's slightly better ability at breaking up plays.

As for Williams I think it's harsh saying he is straight out shit. He has shown in the past he can play. He is struggling atm but has plenty of chances before the season is out to set things right. Maybe a change in manager will do him some good.

[markn]

They haven't scored the most goals in the league, in fact we've only scored 2 goals less than them, the difference is they have only conceded 15 goals while every other team has conceded in the 20's and 30's.

CCM happen to score when the going gets tough. they can defend 89% of the game and score on their one attack forward. ala heart game.

My point is exactly what you have just mentioned. if attackers don't score you don't win. Thus the importance on finding a good attacker is greater than that of a good defender.

4 players can defend a goal line, but only one person can score. Why do you think attackers are worth more than defenders?

[markn]

So your point about not needing a DM in the context of Heart seems quite bizarre to me. But thats the joys of football people see the game quite differently. You obviously come from the if you score 3 i'll score 4 school of football. Unfortunately we aren't set up for go for broke score 4-5 goals a game either.

For what it's worth when we have a fully fit midfield contingent i'd set up with Germano, Fred, Thompson. With Germano sitting deeper. Just because his better passing range outweighs Shroj's slightly better ability at breaking up plays.

We seem to be agreeing, without actually knowing it.

You cannot sit back with a 1-0 lead and expect to win. A good attacker will score another. had we put the ball in the back of the net against roar, maybe we would not have drawn. there are many other examples where a second goal was needed to protect our lead. Ask Van Dyke whether they would have lost to wellington had his shot gone in.

Our squad needs only a few player to be injured before our team structure changes. For us to adopt a strategy irrespective of player availability is stupid. our strategy needs to be dependent on the players available.

I agree with you our squad with Germano, Fred, Thompson is very strong. Its much stronger without Shroj. But you con only play with the squad that's available.

I don't care how we play, as long as we win. A scrappy 3 points is better than a well played draw. ask ccm fans. are they happier to play well and draw against us, or play scrappy and win? Re: Sydney Newcastle - did Newcastle defend poorly to concede 2, or play well to score 5?

[cadete]

CCM happen to score when the going gets tough. they can defend 89% of the game and score on their one attack forward. ala heart game.

My point is exactly what you have just mentioned. if attackers don't score you don't win. Thus the importance on finding a good attacker is greater than that of a good defender.

4 players can defend a goal line, but only one person can score. Why do you think attackers are worth more than defenders?

1. If attackers don't score you don't win: Exactly Williams is an attacker that never scores, and never plays a part in setting up of goals either.

.

2. Thus the importance on finding a good attacker is greater than that of a good defender: A good attacker as you said yourself score goals or helps in the process - he does not done either of these all season.

Basically your argument has come down to the logic that any attacker is better than any defender.

So I guess you probably would prefer a Williams over a Maldini on this basis.

[perthheart]

4 players can defend a goal line, but only one person can score. Why do you think attackers are worth more than defenders?

So every goal we have scored this season has been the result of Eli Babalj getting the ball on the half way line, turning his marker, skinning three players and shooting from 18 yards into the top corner? Takes an entire team to score. If any aspect of a team can struggle and the team still win it's the forwards. If the defence is tight and you don't concede you can't lose. Then it only takes 1 goal to win a game. Is daft to say attackers are more needed than defenders. Give me 1-0 over 3-4 any day of the week.

[heart_fan10]

So every goal we have scored this season has been the result of Eli Babalj getting the ball on the half way line, turning his marker, skinning three players and shooting from 18 yards into the top corner? Takes an entire team to score. If any aspect of a team can struggle and the team still win it's the forwards. If the defence is tight and you don't concede you can't lose. Then it only takes 1 goal to win a game. Is daft to say attackers are more needed than defenders. Give me 1-0 over 3-4 any day of the week.

exactly.

if you can keep the opposition scoreless, half the job is already done.

[jw1739]

All you can ask of a mature player is that he play up to his capabilities set - his skills, fitness etc. A bit like having a handicap at golf. I'm reading here that Wayne Srhoj generally does that (i.e. he plays to his handicap), whereas so far David Williams has not.

The conversation has moved on to whether the squad as a whole has played to its handicap. IMO the answer is clearly 'no.' JvS has spent most of his coaching career as a youth coach. His only previous senior coaching role (FC Twente) was a failure. At Heart already some young players have come a long way - Hamill, Good, Goodwin etc. I would have expected nothing less. But in terms of actual match results, so far Heart has not delivered.

I'm looking forward to a greater emphasis on results in the future. Strategies and tactics need to change depending on which players we have at our disposal and on the opposition.

So far at AAMI we have only beaten North Queensland(2), Melbourne Victory(2), Wellington(1) and Newcastle(1). That needs to change for the club to grow.

[heart_fan10]

You cannot sit back with a 1-0 lead and expect to win. A good attacker will score another. had we put the ball in the back of the net against roar, maybe we would not have drawn. there are many other examples where a second goal was needed to protect our lead. Ask Van Dyke whether they would have lost to wellington had his shot gone in.

yes but like you said, MAYBE we would have not drawn. If we were could enough to keep roar scoreless though, we would have 100% won the game. Even if Van Dykes header went in, they still conceded 2 goals so they wouldn't have won the game. However if the adelaide defense was strong, wellington wouldn't have scored and adelaide still walk away 1-0 winners.

[markn]

Basically your argument has come down to the logic that any attacker is better than any defender.

So I guess you probably would prefer a Williams over a Maldini on this basis.

Your getting off track. i agree williams is having a bad year. we can all agree on that. and we can all agree that shroj is not going to be any better than he is now.

My argument has - and always will be - that if both players are at their best williams is a far better player. we have to give williams the benefit of the doubt and hope he can return to form soon.

but i still agree a good attacker is far better than a good dm. i think we can all agree on that.

[markn]

I'm looking forward to a greater emphasis on results in the future. Strategies and tactics need to change depending on which players we have at our disposal and on the opposition.

agree 100% in a game of football results are all that count. 3 point are 3 points. no matter how you earn them

[markn]

Even if Van Dykes header went in, they still conceded 2 goals so they wouldn't have won the game.

teams play different when 1-0 up/down than they do 2-0 up/down. your argument holds no weight. the odds of adelaide loosing at 2-0 is very very low. thus good attackers will put the ball in the back of the net, thus releaving presure on the squads defence.

[markn]

Nice to see a slimmer Williams (according to photo's from 442).

It could be the start of a break out year at the heart for Williams. if he gets his mind right, i think he could easily be our number one striker this season.

[NuggetsMcGreggor]

perhaps under the coaching of JA he might prosper. let's hope so anyway.

[moops]

Give the dude a chance, last year was shite for him, but a new coach and new season may encourage him.

We are stuck with him, may as well support him.

[bazzatron]

Different David Williams, but Simon Cowell has a point:

[Luke]

sack the cunt

[Pandev]

Nice to see a slimmer Williams (according to photo's from 442).

It could be the start of a break out year at the heart for Williams. if he gets his mind right, i think he could easily be our number one striker this season.

he was played out of his position. give the man a chance to play in his natural position, then we can judge him.

[Peter]

he was played out of his position. give the man a chance to play in his natural position, then we can judge him.

I agree and believe the same can be said for Alex Terra as I've said elsewhere. Besides we don't have a lot of options yet for next season and so I am trying to excite myself at the moment with the idea of Williams and Mate feeding next seasons suprise packet Jason Hoffman with Gol Gol providing an impact when required. Should be good.

[cadete]

I agree and believe the same can be said for Alex Terra as I've said elsewhere. Besides we don't have a lot of options yet for next season and so I am trying to excite myself at the moment with the idea of Williams and Mate feeding next seasons suprise packet Jason Hoffman with Gol Gol providing an impact when required. Should be good.

Are u serious?

If Mate got injured I am not even that confident that this Attacking combination would be good enough to win the VPL, let alone win games in the A League.

[Peter]

Are u serious?

If Mate got injured I am not even that confident that this Attacking combination would be good enough to win the VPL, let alone win games in the A League.

As I said, we don't have a lot of options YET. Either Williams and co. improve on last seasons showing or it will be a long season.

ps I apologise if I can be a little left field.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Peter

[Jake]

As I said, we don't have a lot of options YET. Either Williams and co. improve on last seasons showing or it will be a long season.

ps I apologise if I can be a little left field.

Mate, I wouldn't be apologising. You expressed a fair wish for Willians to improve significantly on last season. I hope he does too and that he can make a solid contribution this season. From memory we still have him for the next 2 seasons so we don't want to have to carry him the whole time.

[mus-28]

Plenty of players have trouble adapting to new surroundings, playing styles, etc when they move clubs. Given 12 months to get his shit sorted I'll reserve judgement until we're midway through this season. One thing is certain, Williams has a lot of potential, whether or not he fulfills it at Heart is yet to be seen.

[cadete]

Plenty of players have trouble adapting to new surroundings, playing styles, etc when they move clubs. Given 12 months to get his shit sorted I'll reserve judgement until we're midway through this season. One thing is certain, Williams has a lot of potential, whether or not he fulfills it at Heart is yet to be seen.

Or could just go the way of Kalmal, its fucken sad seeing him do little on the wing at Bergers.

If he had just applied himself he should have been in the Heart team each week at least on the bench by now.

I know there were some injuries but I watched this guy play for Heart, South, Heart NYL, and now Bergers and he should be a lot further along than what he is atm.

[jw1739]

Mate, I wouldn't be apologising. You expressed a fair wish for Willians to improve significantly on last season. I hope he does too and that he can make a solid contribution this season. From memory we still have him for the next 2 seasons so we don't want to have to carry him the whole time.

Yes, he is contracted for the next two seasons. IMO he's just one of a number of players who were badly managed last season. Some were released, but that option does not exist for players with longer contracts unless it's mutually agreed.

No question that Willo needs to trim down and work a lot harder. That's a shared responsibility, and I hope we're going to see Aloisi and the new coaching team managing the players better than was done last season. I guess we'll see during the pre-season.