Domestic Politics

[Tesla]

Would give a kidney for Turnbull's speaking ability. He could tell us income tax rates are being lifted to 90% for everyone and somehow make it sound great.

Has definitely talked a big game already, especially regarding the economy, and I suspect just with Turnbull taking over as PM there will be a boost in confidence which will help the economy before Turnbull has even actually done anything. 

The other thing he seemed to focus on was technology which is good as it was probably the biggest weakness of Abbott's government, of course as communications minister he was directly overseeing some of the  in that area so it will be interesting to see what happens there.

Hockey is obviously gone, just hope Brandis is gone too, the other huge flog in the Abbott government.

[cadete]

Turnbull hasn't been know to use his catholicism as basis for political policy in a secular country
So no, can't imagine the media will give a shit

That is just a load of crap to the point that you sound like the Republican Campaigners when JFK ran for office back in the sixties... and there is no way you would ever make such a comment about a Muslim Politician either.

Also if you want to go down that path you may as well make the same poor argument about Keating.

[strider]

Is our political system the least stable out of all the first world countries? Fuck me, haven't had a solid run since Howard, even that was shaky. 

[cadete]

Is our political system the least stable out of all the first world countries? Fuck me, haven't had a solid run since Howard, even that was shaky. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation 

[strider]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation 

Hi Cadete,

Are you able to translate that for us inferior folk?

Regards,
Strider 

[cadete]

Hi Cadete,

Are you able to translate that for us inferior folk?

Regards,
Strider 

No - Just turn on the SBS news FFS.

[jw1739]

Is our political system the least stable out of all the first world countries? Fuck me, haven't had a solid run since Howard, even that was shaky. 

No. Turnbull will be only our 29th Prime Minister.

For starters, try Italy.

[Jovan]

And there it is.

 

Thread killer again.

[cadete]

I just wish I could have put money on when this spill would occur as I was told after Abbott won the last one uncontested that he would be replaced in Turnbull by early Spring.

Edited September 14, 2015 by cadete

[strider]

No. Turnbull will be only our 29th Prime Minister.

For starters, try Italy.

I don't know, I consider Italy third-world

[cadete]

I don't know, I consider Italy third-world

Yeah, Gucci Handbags and Ferrari's look real Third World to me as well...

[Pete Heartspur]

Yeah, Gucci Handbags and Ferrari's look real Third World to me as well...

The Sudanese love their Gucci handbags! Go to any tourist hotspot around Europe, they all have 'em. In fact they have several, and at very generous prices!

Edited September 15, 2015 by Pete Heartspur

[strider]

Yeah, Gucci Handbags and Ferrari's look real Third World to me as well...

Trust you to bring up handbags Cadete 

[sheepdog]

You're starting to grow on me old mate strider.

[Nate]

Not really politically biased towards either of the two main parties but at the end of the day, we all vote for a party and not a PM so I'm not sure I really understand all the ruckus about instability and so forth, I think it's a good thing that the spill occurred as it reflects democracy. And to those who are saying the Australian people are irrelevant in this decision making, pretty sure it was the opinion polls and months of public scrutiny which led to a lack of confidence in Abbott so once again, I'm not sure I understand the fuss. 

All the core principles and ideologies will remain the same with perhaps a few policy changes (e.g can see gay marriage given the green light now) but largely speaking, not a great deal is going to change. The biggest difference as Tesla pointed out is Turnbull's ability to speak, and one of the greatest strengths of a good leader is being able to communicate your party's messages to the public which Abbott really failed to achieve during his tenure. 

[cadete]

Not really politically biased towards either of the two main parties but at the end of the day, we all vote for a party and not a PM so I'm not sure I really understand all the ruckus about instability and so forth, I think it's a good thing that the spill occurred as it reflects democracy. And to those who are saying the Australian people are irrelevant in this decision making, pretty sure it was the opinion polls and months of public scrutiny which led to a lack of confidence in Abbott so once again, I'm not sure I understand the fuss. 

All the core principles and ideologies will remain the same with perhaps a few policy changes (e.g can see gay marriage given the green light now) but largely speaking, not a great deal is going to change. The biggest difference as Tesla pointed out is Turnbull's ability to speak, and one of the greatest strengths of a good leader is being able to communicate your party's messages to the public which Abbott really failed to achieve during his tenure. 

I really think PPL are giving Turnbull more credit as a leader due to their dislike of Abbott than for anything he actually has done... and I say this as someone who is ideologically more in line with Turnbull.

Abbott will obviously be remembered by many for his stuff ups when speaking to the press but at the end of day he also was a very good opposition leader who won the same amount of seats when taking on a ALP Government running for its second term in office in what was considered an unwinnable election, and then defeating this Government in his second election with a landslide result.

The only form Turnbull has on the other hand has as leader was as a terrible Opposition Leader in his presentation to the press (With many a stuff up of his own) and even more was poor in controlling his own party to the extent that when Abbott took over the Coalition it became immediately obvious that they were a much more United force.

[strider]

I think the instability generally worries people. That's twice in... like 5 years or so where a leader has been overturned.

I want an Aboriginal PM.

[jw1739]

I don't know, I consider Italy third-world

Fourth largest economy in Europe.

[strider]

Fourth largest economy in Europe.

But Europe is a third world country...

[NewConvert]

My favourite is Belgium who went without a government for 589 days beginning on June 13, 2010 and a new government being formed on December 6 2011. This proves Libertarians correct when they say that governments are not necessary.

I tend to agree with Cadete about far too much credit is being given to Turnbull but he will have time to prove himself; and that will also include whether he can control the white anting by the theocratic faction of the Liberal party.

[Tesla]

I really think PPL are giving Turnbull more credit as a leader due to their dislike of Abbott than for anything he actually has done... and I say this as someone who is ideologically more in line with Turnbull.

Abbott will obviously be remembered by many for his stuff ups when speaking to the press but at the end of day he also was a very good opposition leader who won the same amount of seats when taking on a ALP Government running for its second term in office in what was considered an unwinnable election, and then defeating this Government in his second election with a landslide result.

The only form Turnbull has on the other hand has as leader was as a terrible Opposition Leader in his presentation to the press (With many a stuff up of his own) and even more was poor in controlling his own party to the extent that when Abbott took over the Coalition it became immediately obvious that they were a much more United force.

Abbott did a good job as opposition leader and was the right man for the job given the circumstances at the time. As you say he united the party, in contrast with the ALP which were the opposite, while also being smart enough to play a good defensive game and just let the ALP hang themselves. I'm not saying it was easy, because it just as easily could have been fucked up, so full credit to Abbott for returning the Coalition to power.

But honestly he never seemed like PM material and I think that proved to be the case. Especially under difficult circumstances, where the economy is fucked and tough decisions need to be made, because he was never going to sell these tough measures to the public when he can't even conduct a press conference without embarrassing himself.

Whereas Turnbull is the opposite, he is a salesman (literally, he was an investment banker which is basically just a high end salesman) and has already shown he can explain these tough decisions to the public (I saw him in one media appearance where he defended Abbott & Hockey's budget cuts 100 times better than they ever did) and I think that's what is needed now.

At least that's why I'm optimistic about Turnbull being PM, we'll see what happens.

[cadete]

Abbott did a good job as opposition leader and was the right man for the job given the circumstances at the time. As you say he united the party, in contrast with the ALP which were the opposite, while also being smart enough to play a good defensive game and just let the ALP hang themselves. I'm not saying it was easy, because it just as easily could have been fucked up, so full credit to Abbott for returning the Coalition to power.

But honestly he never seemed like PM material and I think that proved to be the case. Especially under difficult circumstances, where the economy is fucked and tough decisions need to be made, because he was never going to sell these tough measures to the public when he can't even conduct a press conference without embarrassing himself.

Whereas Turnbull is the opposite, he is a salesman (literally, he was an investment banker which is basically just a high end salesman) and has already shown he can explain these tough decisions to the public (I saw him in one media appearance where he defended Abbott & Hockey's budget cuts 100 times better than they ever did) and I think that's what is needed now.

At least that's why I'm optimistic about Turnbull being PM, we'll see what happens.

I dont think Abbott was doing well... he clearly was not and it is more than likely he was not going to get that much better but I could see why he will (knowing what his like) probably at a later date argue that he was finding his feet as he did rebound from the uncontested challenge and sold his second Budget reasonably well.

I also still think he would have still probably won a close election if he had headed to the polls early by focusing on Party Stability something obviously that the Liberals cant use as their trump card in any political conversation anymore.

Its also clear that this spill as I mentioned before was planned for now three or four months ago rather than being an reaction to how Abbott was doing in past couple of weeks. I was told early Spring back then from someone with a very good direct source and that is exactly when the spill occurred so I dont it was a coincidence.

I think like both Rudd and Gillard when they lost their respective leadership spills that Abbott is def a victim of the current Political Times where MP's are scrutinized by a different type of media and society that was around fifteen years ago. There certainly were none of these almost daily polls in the 80's and 90's.

It's worth noting that at the exact same point in to his time as PM that Howard was being mocked as a bad speaker (His speech to the aboriginal conference he attended is worse viewing than anything Abbott did) and there was a lot of talk about his Government lasting one term. Nowadays Howard gets mobbed for selfies in safe ALP seats so it be interesting to see how he would have done back then in the world of daily internet polls and social media.

There is no way any Coalition Government back in 2000 would have ever even thought of dismissing a PM who had just returned them back into office in a landslide victory after only being in Opposition for two terms prior to being in office very successfully in a era of much prosperity for over a decades.

 I will use one of my racing analogies seeing as PPL love to mock them so much: Which is for me Turnbull represents an expensive very well bred good looking two year stallion who performs well in trials and track work when there is no pressure and continues to get spoken up about by its Trainer Gai Waterhouse style but has so far only been reasonable when it counts on race day.

He looks good as a progressive Minor Minister in an Italian Leather Jacket pandering to a left tilted Q&A Audience but really as a Politician his efforts as a decent Environment Minister under Howard (A difficult task) particularly on Whaling have to be placed aside his very unsuccessful stint as Opposition Leader.

He now gets thrown in the deep end against strong opposition and there is nowhere for him to hide at Group One level.

Edited September 15, 2015 by cadete

[bt50]

I dont think Abbott was doing well... he clearly was not and it is more than likely he was not going to get that much better but I could see why he will (knowing what his like) probably at a later date argue that he was finding his feet as he did rebound from the uncontested challenge and sold his second Budget reasonably well.

I also still think he would have still probably won a close election if he had headed to the polls early by focusing on Party Stability something obviously that the Liberals cant use as their trump card in any political conversation anymore.

Its also clear that this spill as I mentioned before was planned for now three or four months ago rather than being an reaction to how Abbott was doing in past couple of weeks. I was told early Spring back then from someone with a very good direct source and that is exactly when the spill occurred so I dont it was a coincidence.

I think like both Rudd and Gillard when they lost their respective leadership spills that Abbott is def a victim of the current Political Times where MP's are scrutinized by a different type of media and society that was around fifteen years ago. There certainly were none of these almost daily polls in the 80's and 90's.

It's worth noting that at the exact same point in to his time as PM that Howard was being mocked as a bad speaker (His speech to the aboriginal conference he attended is worse viewing than anything Abbott did) and there was a lot of talk about his Government lasting one term. Nowadays Howard gets mobbed for selfies in safe ALP seats so it be interesting to see how he would have done back then in the world of daily internet polls and social media.

There is no way any Coalition Government back in 2000 would have ever even thought of dismissing a PM who had just returned them back into office in a landslide victory after only being in Opposition for two terms prior to being in office very successfully in a era of much prosperity for over a decades.

 I will use one of my racing analogies seeing as PPL love to mock them so much: Which is for me Turnbull represents an expensive very well bred good looking two year stallion who performs well in trials and track work when there is no pressure and continues to get spoken up about by its Trainer Gai Waterhouse style but has so far only been reasonable when it counts on race day.

He looks good as a progressive Minor Minister in an Italian Leather Jacket pandering to a left tilted Q&A Audience but really as a Politician his efforts as a decent Environment Minister under Howard (A difficult task) particularly on Whaling have to be placed aside his very unsuccessful stint as Opposition Leader.

He now gets thrown in the deep end against strong opposition and there is nowhere for him to hide at Group One level.

[strider]

I dont think Abbott was doing well... he clearly was not and it is more than likely he was not going to get that much better but I could see why he will (knowing what his like) probably at a later date argue that he was finding his feet as he did rebound from the uncontested challenge and sold his second Budget reasonably well.

I also still think he would have still probably won a close election if he had headed to the polls early by focusing on Party Stability something obviously that the Liberals cant use as their trump card in any political conversation anymore.

Its also clear that this spill as I mentioned before was planned for now three or four months ago rather than being an reaction to how Abbott was doing in past couple of weeks. I was told early Spring back then from someone with a very good direct source and that is exactly when the spill occurred so I dont it was a coincidence.

I think like both Rudd and Gillard when they lost their respective leadership spills that Abbott is def a victim of the current Political Times where MP's are scrutinized by a different type of media and society that was around fifteen years ago. There certainly were none of these almost daily polls in the 80's and 90's.

It's worth noting that at the exact same point in to his time as PM that Howard was being mocked as a bad speaker (His speech to the aboriginal conference he attended is worse viewing than anything Abbott did) and there was a lot of talk about his Government lasting one term. Nowadays Howard gets mobbed for selfies in safe ALP seats so it be interesting to see how he would have done back then in the world of daily internet polls and social media.

There is no way any Coalition Government back in 2000 would have ever even thought of dismissing a PM who had just returned them back into office in a landslide victory after only being in Opposition for two terms prior to being in office very successfully in a era of much prosperity for over a decades.

 I will use one of my racing analogies seeing as PPL love to mock them so much: Which is for me Turnbull represents an expensive very well bred good looking two year stallion who performs well in trials and track work when there is no pressure and continues to get spoken up about by its Trainer Gai Waterhouse style but has so far only been reasonable when it counts on race day.

He looks good as a progressive Minor Minister in an Italian Leather Jacket pandering to a left tilted Q&A Audience but really as a Politician his efforts as a decent Environment Minister under Howard (A difficult task) particularly on Whaling have to be placed aside his very unsuccessful stint as Opposition Leader.

He now gets thrown in the deep end against strong opposition and there is nowhere for him to hide at Group One level.

[cadete]

Good - I would be worried if you had read it mate.

[strider]

Good - I would be worried if you had read it mate.

I'm actually clinically diagnosed with ADHD so I can't even if I wanted to. Why are you so mean

[HeartFc]

Bring back Edmund Barton I say.

[cadete]

Bring back Edmund Barton I say.

His successor in Alfred Deakin was a far superior Prime Minister...

I know as such due to my family's now passed away Aussie Terrier being named after him.

Edited September 15, 2015 by cadete

[HeartFc]

I must say thats a fantastic name for a dog. 

[thisphantomfortress]

I must say thats a fantastic name for a dog. 

Edmund Barkton would have been better

[cadete]

The cat was also named Harry after Australian Founding Father: Henry Parkes.

[thisphantomfortress]

So you're telling me you missed the opportunity of a Harry Purrkes & Edmund Barkton combo!

[NewConvert]

I dont think Abbott was doing well... he clearly was not and it is more than likely he was not going to get that much better but I could see why he will (knowing what his like) probably at a later date argue that he was finding his feet as he did rebound from the uncontested challenge and sold his second Budget reasonably well.

I also still think he would have still probably won a close election if he had headed to the polls early by focusing on Party Stability something obviously that the Liberals cant use as their trump card in any political conversation anymore.

Its also clear that this spill as I mentioned before was planned for now three or four months ago rather than being an reaction to how Abbott was doing in past couple of weeks. I was told early Spring back then from someone with a very good direct source and that is exactly when the spill occurred so I dont it was a coincidence.

I think like both Rudd and Gillard when they lost their respective leadership spills that Abbott is def a victim of the current Political Times where MP's are scrutinized by a different type of media and society that was around fifteen years ago. There certainly were none of these almost daily polls in the 80's and 90's.

It's worth noting that at the exact same point in to his time as PM that Howard was being mocked as a bad speaker (His speech to the aboriginal conference he attended is worse viewing than anything Abbott did) and there was a lot of talk about his Government lasting one term. Nowadays Howard gets mobbed for selfies in safe ALP seats so it be interesting to see how he would have done back then in the world of daily internet polls and social media.

There is no way any Coalition Government back in 2000 would have ever even thought of dismissing a PM who had just returned them back into office in a landslide victory after only being in Opposition for two terms prior to being in office very successfully in a era of much prosperity for over a decades.

 I will use one of my racing analogies seeing as PPL love to mock them so much: Which is for me Turnbull represents an expensive very well bred good looking two year stallion who performs well in trials and track work when there is no pressure and continues to get spoken up about by its Trainer Gai Waterhouse style but has so far only been reasonable when it counts on race day.

He looks good as a progressive Minor Minister in an Italian Leather Jacket pandering to a left tilted Q&A Audience but really as a Politician his efforts as a decent Environment Minister under Howard (A difficult task) particularly on Whaling have to be placed aside his very unsuccessful stint as Opposition Leader.

He now gets thrown in the deep end against strong opposition and there is nowhere for him to hide at Group One level.

I don't think that Abbot was a good opposition leader. In fact I think that he was lazy - read Peter Costello's assessment of TA. As opposition leader his mission statement was "to oppose". And he did that very well (and the support of News Ltd + shock jocks was a great boost). He reduced his opposition into short slogans which over time he just repeated ad nauseum. But a good opposition leader will not just oppose but be seeing to "oppose constructively" and more importantly will develop policies which the backbenchers can read and promote. Hayden/Hawke did this against Fraser, Howard tried and failed but Hewson provided the intellectual blue print for Howard to push the policy tank. Rudd did this to an extent (pretty piss weak but it was there). TA did not do this because he is fundamentally lazy. And it showed. There was little for the backbenchers to promote and he could not promote it either because he did not understand and chose not to understand. Reading figures, tables and abstract is hard.

Politics has changed with the fortnightly polling, focus groups and MPs without a broad life ranging experience. But back in the 70s we didn't have social media but we did have Mike Willessee, Jana Wendt, and a host of other current affairs programs which would drill politicians to within an inch of their life. These days Leigh Sales is the only one who comes close to those searing interviews. And if the MP was not prepared then they paid the price. Social media is just a lot of people screaming. Gaffes are picked up and reported but this means that MPs have to be more careful. And seriously, would John Howard have made some of the gaffes that Peter Dutton or TA have made?

TA's demise was made by his own hand. The plotting may well have taken months but a harder working and someone with better judgement would not have lost the leadership.

[cadete]

Being an Opposition Leader is not about providing "Policy" this is a given everyone in Politics understands...

Of course the sitting Government will always try to use the Opposition's lack of policy as reason for PPL to not vote for them but the best thing any Opposition Leader can do is focus on the Government's defects and not give the Government much policy of their own to pick at and run a nothing campaign.

That was how both Rudd and Howard were elected with the help of going up against long term governments and why bloody John Hewson (who did the opposite - and I am amazed you brought up) lost the unlosable election and TBH I am amazed you even brought Hewson into the argument.

He will go down in history as the worst Opposition Leader ever and the main thing Howard learnt from him was to concentrate on Policy but to avoid things like the GST all together and wait until he was in office to implement such policy.

Likewise I dont understand why you brought up Hayden who only ever managed to lose his one election to the worst Liberal PM of all time in that of Fraser. 

Abbott's style was negative but his record as an opposition leads compared to those above stands as finishing in a dead heat in his first election opposing an one term government and trouncing the same government as his second attempt... these simple stats alone lead to a pretty convincing conclusion that he was a good Opposition Leader seeing as his worst performance in two elections was to win as many seats as his opponent.

Edited September 15, 2015 by cadete

[Moraiwe]

Cadete, you seem to have defined a good opposition leader solely upon their ability to win government.  It might possibly be worth taking under consideration the contribution to the country/party/seat.  It's one thing to try your hardest to win back government.  It's another to hurt the country by doing so (not saying that was what Abbott did, mind you).  With the tactic of blocking just about everything the government tries to implement being shown to be somewhat effective, it doesn't seem to lead to having a leader with any great principles.

[cadete]

Cadete, you seem to have defined a good opposition leader solely upon their ability to win government.  It might possibly be worth taking under consideration the contribution to the country/party/seat.  It's one thing to try your hardest to win back government.  It's another to hurt the country by doing so (not saying that was what Abbott did, mind you).  With the tactic of blocking just about everything the government tries to implement being shown to be somewhat effective, it doesn't seem to lead to having a leader with any great principles.

Of course I define a good Opposition Leader solely on their ability to get into Government, it baffles me how someone would question such a definition.

This is how both major parties Australia wide have defined good Opposition Leaders since the dawn of time and why all Opposition Leaders pretty much do the exact same thing until they actually succeed and get to form Government and what they say and do actually can be acted upon.

That is because an Opposition Leader has no ability to govern until their party oust the current Government and are elected into power therefore focusing on things like sound principles, strong leadership and detailed policy is essentially a waste of energy when none of these can actually be implemented.

The most successful campaigns by Opposition Leaders are almost always those that are Policy Lite and strong at pinpointing which elements of the Government that the public dislike the most, the most unsuccessful are those where Opposition Leaders launch into their own big ideas like Hewson's "GST Debacle" and the ridiculous "Latham Express".

[Moraiwe]

So the skillset required to becoming Prime Minister is almost completely unnecessary to being Prime Minister.  Doesn't lead one to hope much in the future that the Opposition Leader you vote for (yes, yes, we don't actually vote for the leader) will actually stay or be an effective Prime Minister.  It's all rather depressing really.

[cadete]

So the skillset required to becoming Prime Minister is almost completely unnecessary to being Prime Minister.  Doesn't lead one to hope much in the future that the Opposition Leader you vote for (yes, yes, we don't actually vote for the leader) will actually stay or be an effective Prime Minister.  It's all rather depressing really.

1. Yes - And it has been this way for a very long time.

2. And although I can see how it can be look at negatively at the same time I also see it as a trait of two party system which ultimately sees both Major Parties fighting for the vote of the middle ground of the electorate making the Government as representative of the public as realistically possible.

3. And it should probably be also mentioned that primarily due to compulsory voting (Alongside Proportional Representation in the Senate) that in Australia if PPL dont like the two party system they can chose to vote outside of the Major Parties and stand some chance of being rewarded with representation unlike in other places like the US.

 

[jw1739]

Bit like football then Cadete. Use one player to win the ball in the tackle, and then pass it to the striker to score the goal.

[strider]

Cadete do you work in politics? If not then I would suggest giving it a go (maybe run for Mayor of Frankston or wherever you're from)