Defender Crisis

[jw1739]

Would be good to see Philip Petreski and Jeremy Walker be looked at for the covering spots for left and right back as senior squad players. Along with Zac Walker for a striker backup.

Will be interesting to see who we get for the youth team this coming season. There were some great players for the youth team last year that had huge potential.

There's nothing to prevent this happening once they (if they) sign an NYL contract for 2012-13. The risk is that because they are currently out of contract they suddenly get poached by another club, as per Goodwin.

The losses of Babalj and Hamill, and possibly Good, have come at a bad time for us, because we were already planning to rebuild the senior squad. What we have to do is have more than a one-season plan, so who we sign now and for how long has to be done with, say, the next three seasons in mind. I would expect several more releases at the end of 2012-13.

So with, say, Petreski, Konstantinidis, Patterson and the Walkers, who seem to be the favourites of the supporters, the question is do we sign them to the seniors now and cut off other options for next year, or do we wait a season and hope to sign them then with the attendant risk of losing them in the meantime?

Not an easy task ahead for the club.

[Torn Asunder]

Here are a couple of young defenders who may be available...

Both have represented Australia

David Vrankovic (CB)

http://www.footballnsw.com.au/index.php?id=554&tx_ttnews%5Bpointer%5D=8&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=6496&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=537&cHash=daf36776f2

Reece Caira (LB) - has been released by Aston Villa

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/aussie-defender-reece-caira-happy-finally-kickstart-aston-villa-career-1485061

[Jimmy]

Vrankovic would be good. Essentially another Good/Hamil.

[Torn Asunder]

http://www.goal.com/en-au/news/4025/features/2012/07/18/3248755/opinion-melbourne-hearts-case-for-the-defence

[Jimmy]

A few good points raised in Torn Asunder's article. I agree that if we don't sign at least one more quality CB then we won't be winning anything this season. I wouldn't mind having Neil. Could be our Australian marque and would be very solid in the A-League as well as bringing a bit of media attention. Only problems are he's a little bit of a twat and would probably only go to the Wanderers.

[Sash]

I think we'd need a lot of money just to start negotiating for Neill. But if we've been talking to Owen, then we'd be better off considering using what we've got to try for Neill instead. As much as I'd enjoy 10 weeks in the spotlight with Owen, Neill would fill the area of real need and be a more important signing overall. From all the available CB's, there looks to be a big gap between Neill and the rest.

My feeling is that the club was prepared to lose Good, but was probably caught out with Hamill. He was contracted for 2 more seasons but with that clause in his contract, it sounds like there was nothing we could do if Seongnam were prepared to pay the price and he wanted to go.

The way it's looking right now, our best formation might be Colosimo and Gerhardt at the back with Gray on the bench. Or whatever combination of those three. A young guy like Vrankovic might be worthwhile, but right now, probably behind those three. It's just speculation before seeing them play, but Gerhardt might turn out to be better than any other option we can find. I can't help thinking that Hamill's move has screwed with our plans at the back and it's going to be a problem again unless we can somehow get a good quality ready-made replacement. Might as well try for Neill.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Sash

[jw1739]

I'm sure we've been caught out with all three of Babalj, Good and Hamill. Otherwise we surely would have moved a lot quicker, especially with the coaching set-up. As it is, JD was the only one looking at players up until the appointment of JA - nearly three months.

Reading the comments on MHFCIndex I suspect we're looking at Colosimo and Gray as CBs, with Gerhardt as DM, and if either of the CBs is injured during a game Gerhardt will drop back.

[Sash]

Well, I think we always needed an experienced striker whether Babalj stayed or not, so I don't think that altered our plans at all. And Good's trial was quite a while ago now so there's been plenty of time to plan for that. Hamill's move only became possible recently when Ognenovski moved, so was late and probably took us by surprise, and we had no way to stop him leaving. We'd already signed Gray, which in retrospect I think we would've been better to hold off on so we still had a visa spot to play with.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Sash

[heart_fan10]

http://www.watoday.com.au/sport/soccer/heres-one-club-that-is-all-heart-20120718-22alm.html

what the hell is this article saying about behich????? surely he's not going anywhere

[Luke]

Fuck i'd be pissed if we lost Behich

[yelawolf]

http://www.watoday.c...0718-22alm.html

what the hell is this article saying about behich????? surely he's not going anywhere

yeah it's true. the club have accepted 3 offers from Asia.

[heart_fan10]

yeah it's true. the club have accepted 3 offers from Asia.

where did you get 3 offers from?

[yelawolf]

where did you get 3 offers from?

3 clubs from Japan. 1 of those from the 1st division

not sure on name of clubs though

[mus-28]

Would be a pretty big blow to lose Behich, but the upside is that Thommo could slot into LB quite easily and Fred, Germano and Gerhardt fill the 3 central midfield positions, with Kalmar to provide depth.

Losing our players is never a good thing, but if they go onto further their careers and hopefully earn Socceroo recognition then it vindicates the approach the club have taken..

[Heart of Melbourne]

Every week we wake up to new stories about Melbourne heart players leaving. Who's next ? Mate?

[cadete]

Would be a pretty big blow to lose Behich, but the upside is that Thommo could slot into LB quite easily and Fred, Germano and Gerhardt fill the 3 central midfield positions, with Kalmar to provide depth.

Losing our players is never a good thing, but if they go onto further their careers and hopefully earn Socceroo recognition then it vindicates the approach the club have taken..

Kalmar cannot run out games...

[biancorosso7]

I think the word "crisis" is no longer an exaggeration.

Congratulations to the guys that have been scouted and transferred from Melbourne Heart. However, I would have to agree with the comments in this thread and in the Behich thread that he will be a big loss, and it has become clear that these players where obviously initially scouted to be sold on. Now if that is going to continue, I can hardly see how youth guys like Brodie Patterson, KK and Petreski will not be promoted to the "seniors" considering the youth development policy our club entertains.

The more important questions now are 1) are our youth guys that are training with the team ready for the "big time"? and 2) if not, whats the plan for a season that is about 2 1/2 months away?

[jw1739]

Have to agree. If we do lose Good and Aziz, making four departures all told, then we are in crisis.

it's not that players are leaving - good luck to them all - but can we replace them and can we do it quickly enough?

We're already pushing the envelope to get players on board on time, and the more we rush the more likely we are to make mistakes in the process, despite all good intentions.

[Tesla]

If Behich goes, Philip Petreski is ready to be our new 1st choice left back.

[jw1739]

If Behich goes, Philip Petreski is ready to be our new 1st choice left back.

I agree. Even if Behich doesn't go this time it won't be long before he does. So stop stuffing about and sign up Petreski and J. Walker now before someone else steals them. And KK to have him there as a stand-in CB as the need arises. All are worth it, and Lord knows there's room for them.

[cadete]

I agree. Even if Behich doesn't go this time it won't be long before he does. So stop stuffing about and sign up Petreski and J. Walker now before someone else steals them. And KK to have him there as a stand-in CB as the need arises. All are worth it, and Lord knows there's room for them.

Should we not learn from this lesson and actually sign some expeirenced defenders who might stay around longer than one season?

(I heard that expeirence also seems to matters when it comes to defending, that is AC Milan believe anyway.)

[natalie182]

News overnight:

- Craig Goodwin scores a hat trick

- Aziz might be going

- Were probably getting Dylan McCallister

Things are looking good! Not.

[Tesla]

I still dont understand why people see us selling these guys as a bad thing. It probably will cause us some problems this season as we have been slow building the squad, but in the future I think we will be faster to react once the lessons of this offseason are learnt.

Anyway, a strategy of filling the squad with cheap youngsters and then adding a few high quality players to fill up the salary cap and even have 2 marquees (we would only be able to fund such a thing with selling talented youngsters who dont want to stay in this league for long anyway) would see us be a very competitive side IMO. The cream of the crop would eventually be sold overseas, providing the funds to build a higher quality squad and/or higher quality facilities than we would otherwise be able to afford given our (lack of) fanbase and A-League revenue, some of the lesser talented ones could end up very good players for A-League level and key players for us for years, while some would fail and continue their careers at smaller clubs like Victory.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Tesla

[biancorosso7]

I still dont understand why people see us selling these guys as a bad thing. It probably will cause us some problems this season as we have been slow building the squad, but in the future I think we will be faster to react once the lessons of this offseason are learnt.

Anyway, a strategy of filling the squad with cheap youngsters and then adding a few high quality players to fill up the salary cap and even have 2 marquees (we would only be able to fund such a thing with selling talented youngsters who dont want to stay in this league for long anyway) would see us be a very competitive side IMO. The cream of the crop would eventually be sold overseas, providing the funds to build a higher quality squad and/or higher quality facilities than we would otherwise be able to afford given our (lack of) fanbase and A-League revenue, some of the lesser talented ones could end up very good players for A-League level and key players for us for years, while some would fail and continue their careers at smaller clubs like Victory.

Spot on Tesla.

As I mentioned above, KK, Petreski and Patterson should be first in line for those departing players positions. Keep the cycle going, and in 2 years time, talking to the next Bresciano or Owen who is out of contract becomes a reality.

[cadete]

I still dont understand why people see us selling these guys as a bad thing. It probably will cause us some problems this season as we have been slow building the squad, but in the future I think we will be faster to react once the lessons of this offseason are learnt.

Anyway, a strategy of filling the squad with cheap youngsters and then adding a few high quality players to fill up the salary cap and even have 2 marquees (we would only be able to fund such a thing with these sales) would see us be a very competitive side IMO. The cream of the crop would eventually be sold overseas, providing the funds to build a higher quality squad and/or higher quality facilities than we would otherwise be able to afford, some of the lesser talented ones could end up very good players for A-League level and key players for us for years, while some would fail and continue their careers at smaller clubs like Victory.

TBH I am mainly just still annoyed with the arrogance of JVS.

The guy always treated as only good enough to be a Mistress and never good enough to be his actual Wife.

We should never of been left in the position where our two Centre Halves and our Centre Forward were all Kids with tons of raw ability. I am sure he could have seen like the rest of us from a mile away that all three of these players were going to be moving to bigger stages sooner than later.

The fact he entered last Season with the Spine of our side all likely to leave in the immediate future showed he was never really thinking about what lay ahead in the club’s future.

Edit:

And FFS ppl on here need to rein in the horses on the recurring theme around here about our NYL team having readymade replacement for any departures.

We are talking about kids here who play at a level lower than VPL:

So I think people need to settle down on their expectations on these kids/ Or actually go and see them play and make some more realistic judgements.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cadete

[Tesla]

TBH I am mainly just still annoyed with the arrogance of JVS.

The guy always treated as only good enough to be a Mistress and never good enough to be his actual Wife.

We should never of been left in the position where our two Centre Halves and our Centre Forward were all Kids with tons of raw ability. I am sure he could have seen like the rest of us from a mile away that all three of these players were going to be moving to bigger stages sooner than later.

The fact he entered last Season with the Spine of our side all likely to leave in the immediate future showed he was never really thinking about what lay ahead in the club’s future.

Fair call, but TBH managers come and go, its JD's job to be looking at the long term stability and strategy for the squad. We should have reacted faster in the market knowing we would lose these guys. I think we were too focused on balancing the books and probably didnt expect such a mass exodus at once.

Despite my 'pro-sales' approach, I think thats enough for the season, if someone comes looking for Marrone as well (not unlikely) we should put a higher price on him than we would have because its going to cause us a lot of problems replacing another defender.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Tesla

[jw1739]

Edit:

And FFS ppl on here need to rein in the horses on the recurring theme around here about our NYL team having readymade replacement for any departures.

We are talking about kids here who play at a level lower than VPL:

So I think people need to settle down on their expectations on these kids/ Or actually go and see them play and make some more realistic judgements.

I'm basing my comments on last season's NYL squad based on watching all but two of our home NYL games last season.

Fair call, but TBH managers come and go, its JD's job to be looking at the long term stability and strategy for the squad. We should have reacted faster in the market knowing we would lose these guys. I think we were too focused on balancing the books and probably didnt expect such a mass exodus at once.

We went in to last season's campaign knowing that we were short in defensive options, and were caught out when Colosimo had a run of injuries. But for the availability of Madaschi we could have easily ended up bottom of the league as a result. Because we don't know what's actually going on at the club we don't know whether we could have reacted quicker or not, but I agree that events certainly make it look as though we've taken too long and been caught out both with the coaching team and the playing squad.

[biancorosso7]

And FFS ppl on here need to rein in the horses on the recurring theme around here about our NYL team having readymade replacement for any departures.

We are talking about kids here who play at a level lower than VPL:

So I think people need to settle down on their expectations on these kids/ Or actually go and see them play and make some more realistic judgements.

If not NYL, then who? Could you please name 3 Australian players who you can 1) sign on minimum wage; 2) already know the coaching style and ethic of Aloisi; 3) could potentially be signed on for a longer term contract, or be sold on at a benefit to the Club; and 4) are better than the NYL/"lower level" VPL standard?

[cadete]

If not NYL, then who? Could you please name 3 Australian players who you can 1) sign on minimum wage; 2) already know the coaching style and ethic of Aloisi; 3) could potentially be signed on for a longer term contract, or be sold on at a benefit to the Club; and 4) are better than the NYL/"lower level" VPL standard?

Dear Ghod, let’s do this by point form to make it easier for you.

1) The vast majority of Starting players in most VPL/NSWPL sides and a significant number of players applying their trade in top leagues of SA, WA and Brisbane.

2) JA has been coaching a NYL team for only one year, I have confidence in seasoned VPL players being able to catch up to whatever NYL players have already learnt in this time.

3) How about signing some players that we don’t have to sell: So we don’t have to find a completely new team at the end of every season.

4) Same as question one really: But as a regular watcher of both VPL and NYL, I can tell u: VPL and NSWPL is def a higher standard than the NYL.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cadete

[biancorosso7]

Dear Ghod, let’s do this by point form to make it easier for you.

1) The vast majority of Starting players in most VPL/NSWPL sides and a significant number of players applying their trade in top leagues of SA, WA and Brisbane.

2) JA has been coaching a NYL team for only one year, I have confidence in seasoned VPL players being able to catch up to whatever NYL players have already learnt in this time.

3) How about signing some players that we don’t have to sell: So we don’t have to find a completely new team at the end of every season.

4) Same as question one really: But as a regular watcher of both VPL and NYL, I can tell u: VPL and NSWPL is def a higher standard than the NYL.

That's all good and well, but who are these players? Why would we have selected a NYL side that we wouldn't want to work with in the future, have them to develop and play senior football?

[Murfy1]

I think it's just beginning to dawn on some people what it Actually means to sell players. You don't sell your Jason Hoffmans, you sell your Eli Babaljs.

I can only think of Heart's approach as intelligent and positive. We have sold two players onto respectable clubs and we MIGHT sell two more (Good and Behich) onto big clubs. We haven't sold any players for peanuts, with other A-League clubs selling players for considerably less. So, we've made a good amount of money and might make even more money with a sale or two.

After only two seasons of football Heart have shown to all talented and young footballers that if you want to attract interest and maybe get signed by a respectable Asian or European club you should play for Heart. That reputation is a dividend that will pay off very well into the long term.

The only 'problem' now is that Heart have to replace Babalj and Hamill. Also, that Heart MIGHT have to replace Good and Behich. Including the youth team Heart have signed around 40 players over the past two seasons. The many quality signings our new club has made over its short history were not a fluke IMO, and quality replacements will be found for the 3 remaining spots. If we sell Good and Behich I'm sure the club would have had other players lined up before they let them go.

This 'name X players' thing is a joke. No one has the knowledge of all the players Heart could sign. Even taking away Visa signings there are lots of Australians out there, and we are currently only 3 signings away from a full squad. We only have one pressing spot to fill, and thats one central defender. A backup striker for Tadic (besides Williams, and maybe Hoffman) would come in handy, but isn't urgent. Maybe a winger and/or an AM, but our midfield and our forward line are strong already. The fact is as things stand we just need one defender. That is NOT a crisis.That's a standard offseason situation, with all teams needing to sign at least one or two players who'll be regular starters.

The situation now at Heart is they have some money and they now have to spend to get a full squad. That's not a dilemma or a bad situation at all. The alternative is Hamill, Good, Babalj and maybe some more all play another season and then most of them leave for nothing. We've already found a solid replacement for Babalj in Tadic, so we only need one central defender for Hamill. We'll sign someone soon enough. Some people need to realise things don't last forever, players come and go, and good players get sold.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Murfy1

[Tesla]

Pece Cvetanovski from Rockdale would be a non-NYL team option for left back, would be a fairly similar style to Behich in that he would be a very attacking option out of fullback. Worth looking at, former AIS, Aus u20, went to Europe at a young age and looking to rebuild his career after that failed adventure, apparently tearing it up in the NSWPL.

[cadete]

Dear Ghod, let’s do this by point form to make it easier for you.

1) The vast majority of Starting players in most VPL/NSWPL sides and a significant number of players applying their trade in top leagues of SA, WA and Brisbane.

2) JA has been coaching a NYL team for only one year, I have confidence in seasoned VPL players being able to catch up to whatever NYL players have already learnt in this time.

3) How about signing some players that we don’t have to sell: So we don’t have to find a completely new team at the end of every season.

4) Same as question one really: But as a regular watcher of both VPL and NYL, I can tell u: VPL and NSWPL is def a higher standard than the NYL.

That's all good and well, but who are these players? Why would we have selected a NYL side that we wouldn't want to work with in the future, have them to develop and play senior football?

Its got nothing to do with what the NYL players will be like in the future, as I said in my post I attend as many NYL games as almost anyone as I am big fan of both the concept and of our young team.

However I am talking about players that can step up and do a job right now, which IMO means we probably need players who skills are already more developed than most of our NYL side atm.

I can give you names of State League Defenders from other forums I go on:

But I think its enough in general for u to first understand that the quality of defenders is generally higher in the VPL/NSWPL than the NYL.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cadete

[jw1739]

That's all good and well, but who are these players? Why would we have selected a NYL side that we wouldn't want to work with in the future, have them to develop and play senior football?

The other point about the NYL is that it's not just about selecting the young players who appear to be the best performers for their age at the time. It's about finding the players who are capable of making the next step in their development, both as individuals and as footballers. Heart have stressed that. So in looking to sign any U-21 player into the senior squad I would have expected us to look first to our NYL squad before looking outside it.

If the club looks to the VPL all the time and not to its own youth squad, what's the point in signing for the youth squad?

[heart_fan10]

i can understand your frustration cadete. No doubt we signed some great talent in players like babalj, hamill, good, behich etc... it's taken them a good 2 seasons to get to the level they are at now, and JUST as we can see them on the brink of ripping up the league in their 3rd season they're being sold off to other clubs leaving us with huge gaps to fill.

We're still searching for our 'archie thompson' so to speak. A player who is very handy at a-league level, but simply can't cut it overseas. Someone who is able to serve the club a good 6-7 seasons. The problem is we're still very young as a club, and this is the first real experience of negotiating with big clubs and selling off players, so hopefully the club will learn from this and it can only make us better. JD and the coaching staff will work it out quickly, and he stated that the aim was to provide this pathway to europe that many young players aspire to, and to have on-field success at the same time. We need to find the right 'formula' that ticks both those boxes, so it's a good learning experience.

We have to remember that even though there's quite a few of our players moving on, and others who will/are being targeted, there's always going to be that situation that for whatever reason, after 1-2 years or even less, it just doesn't work out, and when that happens they'll be coming straight back to heart. For all we know, babalj, good, hamill and behich will all be gone this season, but may all come back the season after. If we continue to sell players to big clubs every season, we may eventually get to a stage where every year we'll be getting ex-heart prodigies coming back to us after things have not worked out abroad, and are looking to re-ignite their careers. (hopefully i've explained that well)

Edited July 19, 2012 by heart_fan10

[sharpy]

Dear Ghod, let’s do this by point form to make it easier for you.

God*

Agree though that VPL defenders would be able to fill the void, I trust that JA and JD have been keeping a close eye on the comp!

[cadete]

God*

Agree though that VPL defenders would be able to fill the void, I trust that JA and JD have been keeping a close eye on the comp!

I did mean actually mean Ghod:

[markn]

I just want us to sign somebody. Why not somebody from the vpl?

The afl once looked to youth to replenish their squads, but now a stronger focus is towards mature aged players.

These players have football smarts that come from years of experience.

I'm in favor of any signing that may improve our defensive stock. Otherwise we will have to start with Thompson in the back again. And we all know his a far better midfielder.

[Luke]

We need to make some signings now. if only for some positive energy about the club, all this selling and no signing is making the punters very nervous

[Peter]

We have to remember that even though there's quite a few of our players moving on, and others who will/are being targeted, there's always going to be that situation that for whatever reason, after 1-2 years or even less, it just doesn't work out, and when that happens they'll be coming straight back to heart. For all we know, babalj, good, hamill and behich will all be gone this season, but may all come back the season after. If we continue to sell players to big clubs every season, we may eventually get to a stage where every year we'll be getting ex-heart prodigies coming back to us after things have not worked out abroad, and are looking to re-ignite their careers. (hopefully i've explained that well)

If we can sell players for $500,000+, wait two years and get them back on a free to play out the last six years or so of their carrers, we will be doing alright.

I have posted before that releasing/selling so many players/coaches without having replacements lined up and then looking as if we are scratching around for whoever we can find makes us look rather amateurish. I agree with those who are saying we need a signing to lift morale.

However, a win on October 05 will provide an even bigger morale boost.