Domestic Politics

[Braveheart]

 

haha funny how the whole neo-clan had to use the 'ineptitude' of another government to demonstrate how good St.Peter was. If you any of you chaps have studied some philosophy you'll recognise that basing the crux of your argument on the comparative flaws of another is a rather weak strategy. Tell me why he was god in his own right, not in comparison to another actor.

 

Tesla was the only one to provide some numbers but even still I disagree that they are the measure of successful economic policy as the hayekian school themselves now admit that surplus is sometimes a dirty word. 

 

Also re: the $900- yes they were a vote grab and I agree with tesla's point here about how those funds should have been invested in infrastructure. Re: who they were given to- this is where we will never understand eachother. I think it's a good thing that those without jobs get more money from the government than me or you. That's a cycle debate between social-reformists like myself and the neo/rationalist clan like yourselves that will continue for eons. Agree to disagree there. 

 

 

I would like you to point out where anyone other than Cadete talked about the failings of the last labor government to talk up Costello? Hardly the whole Neo clan...

 

How would you measure successful economic policy? Other than basing it on implementation of policies that lead to good economic performance. The most used indicator of economic performance is growth. I agree that sometimes having a surplus is not a good thing as it can mean that not enough capital expenditure has occurred, however surplus is nearly always preferable to deficit. 

 

FWIW knowing the philosophy behind different economic schools of thought is very different to having an understanding (even the basics) of the maths and fundamentals behind the economy and market.

 

lol Read back the last page and a half... you virtually all did.

 

FWIW if you are implying that I dont understand maths or macroeconomic fundamentals you clearly are either innocently but grossly underestimating my grasp of domestic politics and its economic foundations OR that was a jibe intended to belittle my understanding of financial politics and if it was the latter I'll just have a litte giggle to myself.

 

One thing that the neo side of politics forgets is that economics is also the passion of the Left. It's what we base our entire conception of societal evolution on. Preface this with saying IM NOT A MARXIST but as an example: Marx was one of the greatest pure Economic theorists of all time and virtually all influential conservative and later liberal economic scholars concede this and a lot attribute the base survey of the market machinations to the man's work... they just think his prescription was wrong. So don't fall into the trap of believing that the neo side of politics/economics of the divide is the only one rooted in economic theory.

 

Either way, I would have expected you of all people to show me and my grasp of the facts a bit more respect than that.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Braveheart

[Tesla]

Napthine's desperation to win some votes through PT policies has taken an interesting turn with the Airport Rail Link being announced. A much better policy then the ridiculous backwards step taken with the capping of all PT tickets to zone 1 prices. The timing makes it almost look like they know what they are doing, since I don't see how an airport line could have been possible until now, with the RRL approaching completion. Will be interesting to see the details announced, but I guess it will just be from Southern Cross now until the Metro tunnel is built and then it would run via that. Probably better that this is done before the Metro tunnel so you have 2 lines from the west to go through it straight away, less capacity wasted.

This is what we need, both road and rail projects. Not one or the other.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Tesla

[hedaik]

Ive never seen the fascination of the airport line, most people are lucky to go to the airport once a year and it is serviced already by an extremely well run bus service. I also can't see the airport train running every 10 minutes 24 hours a day.  If it does need to happen the route I'd like to see it take to make it worthwhile is by extending the Flemington line, through Highpoint shopping centre, the ex-defence site that is being turned into a new suburb and Essendon fields. At least that way it can serve the residents along the way as well.  

 

Would prefer to see the metro built, but like the East to West Link something is better than nothing. However its something thats been promised since the 60's, so Ill believe it when the first hole gets dug. 

[Deviant]

Ive never seen the fascination of the airport line, most people are lucky to go to the airport once a year and it is serviced already by an extremely well run bus service. I also can't see the airport train running every 10 minutes 24 hours a day.  If it does need to happen the route I'd like to see it take to make it worthwhile is by extending the Flemington line, through Highpoint shopping centre, the ex-defence site that is being turned into a new suburb and Essendon fields. At least that way it can serve the residents along the way as well.  

 

Would prefer to see the metro built, but like the East to West Link something is better than nothing. However its something thats been promised since the 60's, so Ill believe it when the first hole gets dug. 

So much easier for away trips...

 

Our main concern, most times, is organising lifts to and from to damned airport. I'm in favor of this train line to the airport. Express from CBD every hour.

[hedaik]

 

Ive never seen the fascination of the airport line, most people are lucky to go to the airport once a year and it is serviced already by an extremely well run bus service. I also can't see the airport train running every 10 minutes 24 hours a day.  If it does need to happen the route I'd like to see it take to make it worthwhile is by extending the Flemington line, through Highpoint shopping centre, the ex-defence site that is being turned into a new suburb and Essendon fields. At least that way it can serve the residents along the way as well.  

 

Would prefer to see the metro built, but like the East to West Link something is better than nothing. However its something thats been promised since the 60's, so Ill believe it when the first hole gets dug. 

So much easier for away trips...

 

Our main concern, most times, is organising lifts to and from to damned airport. I'm in favor of this train line to the airport. Express from CBD every hour.

 

 

But how is that any better than the skybus which runs every 10 mins?

[cadete]

Ive never seen the fascination of the airport line, most people are lucky to go to the airport once a year and it is serviced already by an extremely well run bus service. I also can't see the airport train running every 10 minutes 24 hours a day.  If it does need to happen the route I'd like to see it take to make it worthwhile is by extending the Flemington line, through Highpoint shopping centre, the ex-defence site that is being turned into a new suburb and Essendon fields. At least that way it can serve the residents along the way as well.  

 

Would prefer to see the metro built, but like the East to West Link something is better than nothing. However its something thats been promised since the 60's, so Ill believe it when the first hole gets dug.

So much easier for away trips...

 

Our main concern, most times, is organising lifts to and from to damned airport. I'm in favor of this train line to the airport. Express from CBD every hour.

 

But how is that any better than the skybus which runs every 10 mins? The Bus can get caught in Traffic.

[hedaik]

 

 

 

Ive never seen the fascination of the airport line, most people are lucky to go to the airport once a year and it is serviced already by an extremely well run bus service. I also can't see the airport train running every 10 minutes 24 hours a day.  If it does need to happen the route I'd like to see it take to make it worthwhile is by extending the Flemington line, through Highpoint shopping centre, the ex-defence site that is being turned into a new suburb and Essendon fields. At least that way it can serve the residents along the way as well.  

 

Would prefer to see the metro built, but like the East to West Link something is better than nothing. However its something thats been promised since the 60's, so Ill believe it when the first hole gets dug.

So much easier for away trips...

 

Our main concern, most times, is organising lifts to and from to damned airport. I'm in favor of this train line to the airport. Express from CBD every hour.

 

But how is that any better than the skybus which runs every 10 mins? The Bus can get caught in Traffic.

 

 

Can be solved by having a dedicated bus/taxi lane on the freeway. Rail also has its fair share of delays and cancellations. 

 

Im not against the rail line (especially if it can serve a new area of daily patronage), just dont think its as important as everybody is saying it is. 

[jw1739]

I think you're tending to look at the rail link in terms of a Melbourne resident going to the airport. No reason why you shouldn't of course. But if and when you've travelled to cities such as London, Paris, Amsterdam etc. you'll understand how damned convenient it is to have a rail link. So I'd put to you that this is more about making Melbourne and Victoria a better and more attractive gateway into the country than it is about us getting out!

[Tesla]

Ive never seen the fascination of the airport line, most people are lucky to go to the airport once a year and it is serviced already by an extremely well run bus service. I also can't see the airport train running every 10 minutes 24 hours a day.  If it does need to happen the route I'd like to see it take to make it worthwhile is by extending the Flemington line, through Highpoint shopping centre, the ex-defence site that is being turned into a new suburb and Essendon fields. At least that way it can serve the residents along the way as well.  

 

Would prefer to see the metro built, but like the East to West Link something is better than nothing. However its something thats been promised since the 60's, so Ill believe it when the first hole gets dug.

I do agree with you on a number of points.

But where the rail link really trumps the Skybus, is that when the Metro tunnel is built, theoretically there could be a train running from Dandenong to the airport, without any changing to another train or another form of PT (like currently with the skybus).

FWIW, I believe there will be other stations servicing residents along the way under the current proposal (of course it's not fully announced yet but that was the plan). Definitely there would be more benefit along the route you propose, but at a far larger cost as well, which is why the current proposal was probably chosen.

[Tesla]

I also agree with you that until construction actually begins, I'm not convinced. I very much don't like or trust either party when it comes to state politics, they can both get fucked as far as I'm concerned, and the track record from both sides when it comes to delivering infrastructure is questionable, especially when it comes to the western side of Melbourne.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Tesla

[Jestr]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.

Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.

How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

[Dylan]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.

Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.

How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

 

 

 

Public Transport Victoria's study found the benefits of building a direct link to the airport ''are currently outweighed by the high costs''. But it said at some point an express route from the CBD would become more important, with the number of passengers using the airport expected to double to 60 million a year, comparable with Heathrow Airport now.

 http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/premier-denis-napthine-promises-melbourne-airport-rail-link-20140413-36l24.html#ixzz2yq0weGtR

Edited April 14, 2014 by Dylan

[Tesla]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.

Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.

How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

Fwiw, people travelling to and from the airport creates a lot of traffic on the tullamarine freeway / citylink / monash freeway, so it actually will make things better for people travelling to and from work. Let's also not forget that the airport is a very large employment centre it's self.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Tesla

[Jestr]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

Fwiw, people travelling to and from the airport creates a lot of traffic on the tullamarine freeway / citylink / monash freeway, so it actually will make things better for people travelling to and from work. Let's also not forget that the airport is a very large employment centre it's self. Sure I see it every day as I travel from greenvale to Richmond

Only 30km but it takes over 1hr +

In the morning traffic heading to airport crawls from bell street overpass.

My point is that this is not the only traffic problem in the city and although i agree it has to be fixed, there are other traffic issues more urgent then this one

[cadete]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

Fwiw, people travelling to and from the airport creates a lot of traffic on the tullamarine freeway / citylink / monash freeway, so it actually will make things better for people travelling to and from work. Let's also not forget that the airport is a very large employment centre it's self. Sure I see it every day as I travel from greenvale to Richmond

Only 30km but it takes over 1hr +

In the morning traffic heading to airport crawls from bell street overpass.

My point is that this is not the only traffic problem in the city and although i agree it has to be fixed, there are other traffic issues more urgent then this one Yes there are... like Alexandra FWY which despite some on here's objections is being fixed.

[Jestr]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

Fwiw, people travelling to and from the airport creates a lot of traffic on the tullamarine freeway / citylink / monash freeway, so it actually will make things better for people travelling to and from work. Let's also not forget that the airport is a very large employment centre it's self. Sure I see it every day as I travel from greenvale to Richmond

Only 30km but it takes over 1hr +

In the morning traffic heading to airport crawls from bell street overpass.

My point is that this is not the only traffic problem in the city and although i agree it has to be fixed, there are other traffic issues more urgent then this one Yes there are... like Alexandra FWY which despite some on here's objections is being fixed. Correct.... It's a car park at all times

[Tesla]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

Fwiw, people travelling to and from the airport creates a lot of traffic on the tullamarine freeway / citylink / monash freeway, so it actually will make things better for people travelling to and from work. Let's also not forget that the airport is a very large employment centre it's self.

Sure I see it every day as I travel from greenvale to Richmond

Only 30km but it takes over 1hr +

In the morning traffic heading to airport crawls from bell street overpass.

My point is that this is not the only traffic problem in the city and although i agree it has to be fixed, there are other traffic issues more urgent then this one

That's true, but this is one that is relatively cheap to fix.

[Tesla]

Couldn't give a rats arse about the rail to the airport.Traffic in Melbourne is absolutely stuffed at most of the time.How about spending that money so people can get to and from work in reasonable time everyday instead on those who fly once or twice a year.

Fwiw, people travelling to and from the airport creates a lot of traffic on the tullamarine freeway / citylink / monash freeway, so it actually will make things better for people travelling to and from work. Let's also not forget that the airport is a very large employment centre it's self.

Sure I see it every day as I travel from greenvale to Richmond

Only 30km but it takes over 1hr +

In the morning traffic heading to airport crawls from bell street overpass.

My point is that this is not the only traffic problem in the city and although i agree it has to be fixed, there are other traffic issues more urgent then this one

Yes there are... like Alexandra FWY which despite some on here's objections is being fixed.

The thing about the EW link is, it won't only improve traffic, but improving traffic isn't the only reason to build new roads. It will cut out numerous traffic lights and reduce travel between two major freeways significantly. At the end of the day, having a route between Citylink and the Eastern that drops down to 1 lanme each way at it's bottleneck, makes absolutely no sense. EW link is needed.

[hedaik]

Its also going to improve travel times for the handful of tram routes which cross Alexandra.

[HeartFc]

We need a train to the airport AND we need the East-West tunnel. We need it all.

Anyone complaining about this should jump on a plane and take a look around. We're embarrassment when you compare us to other major cities around world.

[Deviant]

Our population is an embarrassment. Stop using protection.

[malloy]

Reading some of the comments of "informed" and "intelligent" people on The Age website regarding the possible new budget cuts is hilarious.

The one that really took the cake was a guy suggesting the government abolish Fringe Benefits Tax to raise tax revenue.

[Tesla]

Abbott is my boy for sure, but he needs to forget his paid parental leave scheme, and he might as well just give up on the NBN, as fucked as Australia's telecommunications infrastructure is, the coalition's NBN represents no value for money at all, it will cost a lot and I honestly think the private sector could deliver a better solution for most Australians. Labor's may have been more expensive but at least it would have delivered some world class infrastructure, and it was a lot better value for money.

Those 2 things would fix the budget up (NBN is off budget, but it's still creating government debt, so no different to debt created by a deficit).

Edited April 25, 2014 by Tesla

[malloy]

Abbott is my boy for sure, but he needs to forget his paid parental leave scheme, and he might as well just give up on the NBN, as fucked as Australia's telecommunications infrastructure is, the coalition's NBN represents no value for money at all, it will cost a lot and I honestly think the private sector could deliver a better solution for most Australians. Labor's may have been more expensive but at least it would have delivered some world class infrastructure, and it was a lot better value for money.

Those 2 things would fix the budget up (NBN is off budget, but it's still creating government debt, so no different to debt created by a deficit).

Fuck the paid parental scheme off and just make sure men continue to get paid more so that they can financially provide for their partners during pregnancy and child birth.

would be a massive win-win. Save money on budget and piss off feminists in the process.

[hedaik]

I think anything to encourage families to spend more time with their children is an advantage to society. 

 

Just needs to be capped at 50k or something if it is to be brought in. A lower to middle income family is going to hurt a hell of a lot more by going to 1 income while the mother looks after the baby than a family who is earning 200k and who have had time to save and prepare for the time off. 

Edited April 25, 2014 by hedaik

[Tesla]

Sure it has its benefits, but it comes as at a huge cost, not only the cost to taxpayers of providing it but the cost to the economy that comes from removing people from the workforce. I'd rather the government helped with childcare costs than this, one helps parents return to the workforce while the other removes them from the workforce.

[Tesla]

Abbott is my boy for sure, but he needs to forget his paid parental leave scheme, and he might as well just give up on the NBN, as fucked as Australia's telecommunications infrastructure is, the coalition's NBN represents no value for money at all, it will cost a lot and I honestly think the private sector could deliver a better solution for most Australians. Labor's may have been more expensive but at least it would have delivered some world class infrastructure, and it was a lot better value for money.

Those 2 things would fix the budget up (NBN is off budget, but it's still creating government debt, so no different to debt created by a deficit).

Fuck the paid parental scheme off and just make sure men continue to get paid more so that they can financially provide for their partners during pregnancy and child birth.

would be a massive win-win. Save money on budget and piss off feminists in the process.

Most feminists just need a man to put them in their place tbh. A backhand here and there does wonders, and would fix our society up quick smart. Would really like to see Abbott get on top of this, and create the appropriate legislation.

[hedaik]

Sure it has its benefits, but it comes as at a huge cost, not only the cost to taxpayers of providing it but the cost to the economy that comes from removing people from the workforce. I'd rather the government helped with childcare costs than this, one helps parents return to the workforce while the other removes them from the workforce.

 

But wouldnt encouraging mothers to pump out more babies also help out the economy in the future?

 

Anyway I agree its a bad policy at a time where everybody else is suffering budget cuts, but just think if it has to be brought in then it should be capped. If me and Mrs Hedaik can get by with 1 of us not being paid for 6 months then I'm sure other people in our salary range can as well. 

Edited April 25, 2014 by hedaik

[Tesla]

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-billion-for-second-stage-of-melbournes-east-west-link-20140427-zr0es.html

Was expecting them to announce it as a reelection sweetner and they have. Game changer for the people living in the inner west, will remove many trucks off residential roads.

Of course, if Labor get elected it won't happen, classic Labor, never looking out for their voters

[cadete]

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-billion-for-second-stage-of-melbournes-east-west-link-20140427-zr0es.html

Was expecting them to announce it as a reelection sweetner and they have. Game changer for the people living in the inner west, will remove many trucks off residential roads.

Of course, if Labor get elected it won't happen, classic Labor, never looking out for their voters

In other news Bill Shorten in a further move to pander to the Greens (Rather than the Workers of Australia) has announced a "Ride to The Airport" scheme.

Edited April 27, 2014 by cadete

[hedaik]

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-billion-for-second-stage-of-melbournes-east-west-link-20140427-zr0es.html

Was expecting them to announce it as a reelection sweetner and they have. Game changer for the people living in the inner west, will remove many trucks off residential roads.

Of course, if Labor get elected it won't happen, classic Labor, never looking out for their voters

 

Its enough to buy my vote, unless Labor promise to start on the metro line. 

[Tesla]

http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/vic-freeway-to-get-850m-upgrade/story-e6frfku9-1226897994362

Napthine not fucking around, and getting Transurban to pay for the citylink section / most of it, seemingly by letting them increase tolls more than they are currently allowed.

The way I see it, both parties are shit in Victoria, but at least with one party they'll be nice roads to drive on

[Tesla]

Fucking Labor, get to fuck up the country, and then when the coalition try to fix things they're the ones that get the hate. Too many dumb fucks in this country

[cadete]

Fucking Labor, get to fuck up the country, and then when the coalition try to fix things they're the ones that get the hate. Too many dumb fucks in this country

Penny Wong - Australia's worst ever Finance Minister.

[hedaik]

Fucking Labor, get to fuck up the country, and then when the coalition try to fix things they're the ones that get the hate. Too many dumb fucks in this country

 

I don't mind paying more tax and support the idea, but considering Abbott spent all of his time in opposition demonising any kind of tax that Labor tried to introduce (including asking for donations to help him oppose the temporary flood levy for QLD) and promised no new taxes, hes made his own bed on this issue. If every broken promise by a politician from all parties were put under this much scrutiny, we'd be a much better country. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by hedaik

[cadete]

 

Fucking Labor, get to fuck up the country, and then when the coalition try to fix things they're the ones that get the hate. Too many dumb fucks in this country

 

I don't mind paying more tax and support the idea, but considering Abbott spent all of his time in opposition demonising any kind of tax that Labor tried to introduce (including asking for donations to help him oppose the temporary flood levy for QLD) and promised no new taxes, hes made his own bed on this issue. If every broken promise by a politician from all parties were put under this much scrutiny, we'd be a much better country. 

 

We would still be stuck on year one of Paul Keating's "pragmatic" flip flops if this was the case...

[hedaik]

Also good to see that the maternity leave has been capped at 100k for a year down from 150k, even though I still think its 50k too much. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by hedaik

[malloy]

Also good to see that the maternity leave has been capped at 100k for a year down from 150k, even though I still think its 50k too much.

Should be scrapped completely.

[Tesla]

Fucking Labor, get to fuck up the country, and then when the coalition try to fix things they're the ones that get the hate. Too many dumb fucks in this country

 

I don't mind paying more tax and support the idea, but considering Abbott spent all of his time in opposition demonising any kind of tax that Labor tried to introduce (including asking for donations to help him oppose the temporary flood levy for QLD) and promised no new taxes, hes made his own bed on this issue. If every broken promise by a politician from all parties were put under this much scrutiny, we'd be a much better country.

I agree with you in that I don't like Abbott imposing a new tax, especially when he promised not to, plus he is a strong conservative so I don't think anyone would have expected it at all when voting for him.

But I think there also needs to be some leniency, the fiscal position has deteriorated since the election, forcing politicians to keep promises made under different circumstances will not produce good results, circumstances are always changing and must be responded to, rather than just sticking to the plan made at the election.

FWIW, I wasn't just commenting on the tax, but rather all the spending cuts and revenue increasing measures we'll see in the budget. I don't even expect Abbott to go ahead with the tax, and I'll be quite disappointed if he does.

I guess it shows how desperate the situation is if he does go ahead with the tax, given he seems quite determined to not break election promises and he is a strong conservative who I'm sure believes in less tax.

[cadete]

 

 

Fucking Labor, get to fuck up the country, and then when the coalition try to fix things they're the ones that get the hate. Too many dumb fucks in this country

 

I don't mind paying more tax and support the idea, but considering Abbott spent all of his time in opposition demonising any kind of tax that Labor tried to introduce (including asking for donations to help him oppose the temporary flood levy for QLD) and promised no new taxes, hes made his own bed on this issue. If every broken promise by a politician from all parties were put under this much scrutiny, we'd be a much better country.

I agree with you in that I don't like Abbott imposing a new tax, especially when he promised not to, plus he is a strong conservative so I don't think anyone would have expected it at all when voting for him.

But I think there also needs to be some leniency, the fiscal position has deteriorated since the election, forcing politicians to keep promises made under different circumstances will not produce good results, circumstances are always changing and must be responded to, rather than just sticking to the plan made at the election.

FWIW, I wasn't just commenting on the tax, but rather all the spending cuts and revenue increasing measures we'll see in the budget. I don't even expect Abbott to go ahead with the tax, and I'll be quite disappointed if he does.

I guess it shows how desperate the situation is if he does go ahead with the tax, given he seems quite determined to not break election promises and he is a strong conservative who I'm sure believes in less tax.

 

Labor knew they were fucked a long way out (basicly after forming a minority government) and started spending accordingly.

 

Apparently Swan thought his spending would be balanced out by the Mining Boom - Even though he told Australia that we could not reley on it and it was coming to an end.

 

So its up to Abbott to dig us out of another ALP hole just like back in 1996.

Edited April 30, 2014 by cadete