Jump to content
Melbourne Football

World Cup Qualifiers


Shahanga
 Share

Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

I rate Kruse higher than Rogic. Although, I will concede, that there is no way I will watch every socceroos game to determine which is teh lower ranked player.

There was a pile on with Kruse from a whole lot of football ignoramuses. Ok he wasn’t a world beater, but he kept getting picked because he was the best available. Simples.

Rogic is a bit different but ultimately we see his class on the ball and expect him to rip games apart, but it never happens (against decent opposition). So in a way he’s similar to Kruse. The best we had, but not that good.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bt50 said:

Im a huge arnie fan, and especially so in a national team context.

Hes got a plan but hes also pragmatic, and players he coaches buy in and play for him.

Perfect mix.

I love ange too, but anges refusal for pragmatism, especially on a national stage where hes working with players intermittently, was a mark against him.

Ange is very much a "system" type of coach, which is very hard to implement at NT level. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, malloy said:

Ange is very much a "system" type of coach, which is very hard to implement at NT level. 

An observation from the 2010 and 2014 WC were that both winning teams, Spain and Germany respectively, had the bulk of the players playing in the domestic leagues. Indeed the Spanish team comprised of 48% Barcelona, 48% RM and 2% others which meant that playing to a system is a lot easier. Ditto Germany. They fell apart after that for various reasons. Brazil these days live on past glories as most of their players play in different leagues - great players but they don't know each other to the level that they need to.

For countries like Australia, apart from quality, is that the players by and large play in different leagues. The A-League is yet to increase the number of games being played to enable natural synergies to emerge. For me, the synergy between Nabbout and Atkinson is brilliant at times and if it was up to me, I would take the pair to the WC and let them play their natural game.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, NewConvert said:

An observation from the 2010 and 2014 WC were that both winning teams, Spain and Germany respectively, had the bulk of the players playing in the domestic leagues. Indeed the Spanish team comprised of 48% Barcelona, 48% RM and 2% others which meant that playing to a system is a lot easier. Ditto Germany. They fell apart after that for various reasons. Brazil these days live on past glories as most of their players play in different leagues - great players but they don't know each other to the level that they need to.

For countries like Australia, apart from quality, is that the players by and large play in different leagues. The A-League is yet to increase the number of games being played to enable natural synergies to emerge. For me, the synergy between Nabbout and Atkinson is brilliant at times and if it was up to me, I would take the pair to the WC and let them play their natural game.

When I was typing out my original post I started making mention of having players play in the national league and those teams typically playing a certain way, but it is a very in depth topic that really could have its own thread, so I took the lazy approach of the one sentence response.

I think the system type of play goes beyond synergies of having played together. If it can be correctly implemented it allows players who lack that synergy to play as if they had it, because in a system you know where everyone should be (IIRC Wenger used have a colour coded system of areas on the pitch where players should or shouldnt be looking to play the ball in certain situations), so it matters little that a player hasn't played with someone else because they know if that person has been picked to play in a certain position then they will generally be doing x,y and z - otherwise they wouldn't get picked. This is of course easier to do with a strong footballing country who have a large pool of talent, because it makes it easier to pick players to fit the system rather than going with the best 24 players.

Of course Australia has recognised what you have mentioned (to some extent at least) and brought in the 'national football curriculum'. Im not too sure where the NFC is at the moment, but its something that would take 15+ years to see any benefit from if it could even be implemented to plan.

Just a side note, given City's academy and its reach, the Socceroos will in time likely play in a very "Man City" style of play.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, malloy said:

When I was typing out my original post I started making mention of having players play in the national league and those teams typically playing a certain way, but it is a very in depth topic that really could have its own thread, so I took the lazy approach of the one sentence response.

I think the system type of play goes beyond synergies of having played together. If it can be correctly implemented it allows players who lack that synergy to play as if they had it, because in a system you know where everyone should be (IIRC Wenger used have a colour coded system of areas on the pitch where players should or shouldnt be looking to play the ball in certain situations), so it matters little that a player hasn't played with someone else because they know if that person has been picked to play in a certain position then they will generally be doing x,y and z - otherwise they wouldn't get picked. This is of course easier to do with a strong footballing country who have a large pool of talent, because it makes it easier to pick players to fit the system rather than going with the best 24 players.

Of course Australia has recognised what you have mentioned (to some extent at least) and brought in the 'national football curriculum'. Im not too sure where the NFC is at the moment, but its something that would take 15+ years to see any benefit from if it could even be implemented to plan.

Just a side note, given City's academy and its reach, the Socceroos will in time likely play in a very "Man City" style of play.

 

 

I tend to agree but recently I was exposed to an alternative view the of the NFC compared to the NSL days. The NFC works when you have a strong footballing nation where there is ample talent - hence the NFC was based on teh Dutch system. The alternative view is that having different clubs use different methods for example some clubs were very strong on defense others on attacking, formation etc, meant that the NT could have better trained players for positions. As an example, Popovic's team play a dour defensive style so his sons will always play a dour defensive style which is great for the back 4. So when Popovic left WSW and they brought in Josep Gambau who had a completely different style of play, the players were not suitable. But if you were the NT then you would take the defensive WSW players and pair them up with an attacking forward line.

Which is why I think it may be better to take the pair of Nabbout/Atkinson to teh WC so that the right side is already a fluid team play. Add Curtis Good in defense and you would have three players that are accustomed to play in the same team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm inclined to think that unless you really have a standout player such as Aaron Mooy there's not a lot of difference between many of the overseas-based players and those in the A-League. IMO the main advantage is that the OS-based players have much more opportunity to actually play than A-based players because of our short season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a thought regarding our qualification path. 

With the new qualifying format in place for the 2026 World Cup, the OFC will have 1 automatic qualifying spot. With our relationship with the AFC and its member nations reportedly dicey at times, does anyone else think we should go back to Oceania after the 2022 campaign? Or are we onto a good thing here in Asia?

 

edit: for what it's worth, the AFC will have 8 qualifying spots.

Edited by Nate
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Nate said:

I had a thought regarding our qualification path. 

With the new qualifying format in place for the 2026 World Cup, the OFC will have 1 automatic qualifying spot. With our relationship with the AFC and its member nations reportedly dicey at times, does anyone else think we should go back to Oceania after the 2022 campaign? Or are we onto a good thing here in Asia?

 

edit: for what it's worth, the AFC will have 8 qualifying spots.

Asia is a much higher standard,; we have the Asian Cup and our clubs can participate in the ACL (haha). Going back to Oceania would be a huge backward step IMO.

I'd rather see FIFA bring Oceania into the AFC as a sub-group, or something like that. The populations are so small that IMO it is not sensible to have a separate Oceania Federation. It would also give the Phoenix and maybe Auckland permanency in the A-League (ANZ League?). 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Asia is a much higher standard,; we have the Asian Cup and our clubs can participate in the ACL (haha). Going back to Oceania would be a huge backward step IMO.

I'd rather see FIFA bring Oceania into the AFC as a sub-group, or something like that. The populations are so small that IMO it is not sensible to have a separate Oceania Federation. It would also give the Phoenix and maybe Auckland permanency in the A-League (ANZ League?). 

Ive always had the view that Asia should be separated into east and west, with Oceania being absorbed into the eastern conference. Makes more sense overall imo.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bt50 said:

Ive always had the view that Asia should be separated into east and west, with Oceania being absorbed into the eastern conference. Makes more sense overall imo.

Never really, thought about this, but it does makes sense.

Under such a system would you have them as a true conference of an overall confederation or seperate confederations. If the former is your view that WC spots should be split between the two conferences or would qualifacation be firstly though conferences followed by a playoff or group stage with the top x teams from each conference. 

Similarly, if true conferences is your view that the Asian cup and ACL should then be split into two (with potentially a play off between winners) or would you keep them entirely seperate.

Tbh, depending on where the line was drawn between east and west, my preliminary view is that it would be better to have seperate confederations. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, malloy said:

Never really, thought about this, but it does makes sense.

Under such a system would you have them as a true conference of an overall confederation or seperate confederations. If the former is your view that WC spots should be split between the two conferences or would qualifacation be firstly though conferences followed by a playoff or group stage with the top x teams from each conference. 

Similarly, if true conferences is your view that the Asian cup and ACL should then be split into two (with potentially a play off between winners) or would you keep them entirely seperate.

Tbh, depending on where the line was drawn between east and west, my preliminary view is that it would be better to have seperate confederations. 

Seperate Confederations entirely. Obv the sticking point would be the splits but i think the standing 4.5 and .5 would end up being 2 west and 3 east.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, bt50 said:

Ive always had the view that Asia should be separated into east and west, with Oceania being absorbed into the eastern conference. Makes more sense overall imo.

I am with you. The current set up is based on continents except for the fact that America has three confederacies. By splitting Asia into west and east with the east absorbing Oceania, then the time zones would be more amenable as well as the heat issues. My map would have China and Burma as the boundary (we can throw in Nepal and Bhutan as it won't make much of a difference) and teh time difference would be 3.5 hours. In terms of allocation is that I would take one spot from South America (the smallest of all teh federations and don't warrant so many spots) and have Westasia and Eastasia with an equal number of spots (due apologies to George Orwell).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

I am with you. The current set up is based on continents except for the fact that America has three confederacies. By splitting Asia into west and east with the east absorbing Oceania, then the time zones would be more amenable as well as the heat issues. My map would have China and Burma as the boundary (we can throw in Nepal and Bhutan as it won't make much of a difference) and teh time difference would be 3.5 hours. In terms of allocation is that I would take one spot from South America (the smallest of all teh federations and don't warrant so many spots) and have Westasia and Eastasia with an equal number of spots (due apologies to George Orwell).

The irony of all this is that Oceania was once part of the Asian Confederation and was split off. 

My suspicion is that this was done so some fat cat could get a job for life, with lots of brown paper bag bonuses, but who knows, perhaps somewhere someone thought it was a good idea?

The idea of @bt50 that Asia be split into East and West is excellent and that of course is why it will never ever happen.

PS on their day the Pacific Island teams (well bigger nations) are actually not bad. They’d go ok against the mid level Asian sides.

Edited by Shahanga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shahanga said:

The irony of all this is that Oceania was once part of the Asian Confederation and was split off. 

My suspicion is that this was done so some fat cat could get a job for life, with lots of brown paper bag bonuses, but who knows, perhaps somewhere someone thought it was a good idea?

The idea of @bt50 that Asia be split into East and West is excellent and that of course is why it will never ever happen.

PS on their day the Pacific Island teams (well bigger nations) are actually not bad. They’d go ok against the mid level Asian sides.

I should have looked more closely at the current structure before waxing lyrical. Like you @Shahanga I suspect that the biggest impediment to change will be that a number of brown paper bag owners will put out of a sinecure by any constructive change. I hadn't realised before now that there are already six sub-federations within the AFC, and Oceania is the right size in terms of number of members to bring in as the seventh. It really isn't that difficult to do.

In terms of competitions and matches I'd like to see Australia play a lot more. It seems ages since they played a match here in Melbourne - in fact I can't remember when the last one was.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On another note I’m expecting 10 changes to the starting line up vs Taiwan.
Maybe:

Ruka Maclaren Ikonimidis

Genreau McGee

       Dougall

????? Good Sainsbury Grant

       Ryan

Ps. Smith is injured and has left camp. Aziz  is a beast so could possibly back up and play McGee there vs Nepal. Don’t know. Curtis is another option I guess.

PPS Arnold has said Sainsbury and Souttar will start as will Maclaren. Expect to see some A League players.

Fingers crossed its Connor‘s debut.

 

Edited by Shahanga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasn’t far off.

Vukovic in. Good at left back.

Duke on the wing, didn’t pick that one. 

Borello gets a start.

edit:

Maclaren on the right of Duke (Borello on left wing) but he’s playing more central than on the wing.

Edited by Shahanga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty much what I expected. A scrappy win in a non- spectacle. The pitch was quite chopped up which didn’t help.

Hrustric made a huge difference when he came on. (He and Mooy together would give pause to any opponents).

Great to see debuts for Genreau, Metcalfe and Tongyik and of course wonderful to see Curtis Good complete his ~8 year comeback journey with his return to international football.

Incidentally the match featured 3 current City players and 3 ex-players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

My big takeaway is we’ve really got recruitment right to have (mostly) young players of this quality at the club.

Definitely doing a lot of things right.

Its going to be an issue in the future where we have to let talented youngsters go, purely because we can't give them game time. This may already have been the case with DG, but I suspect it will occur more frequently.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • jw1739 pinned this topic

Big match against our traditional rivals, the (both literal and figurative) football giants of Nepal. Win and we have topped the group and are through to the next stage.

With Jordan just a few days away I’m not expecting a first string side. Maybe a bit of blend. Starts to Redmayne, Rukavkystka (surely if I keep naming him I’ll be right eventually) and McTaggart I guess plus a few guys who won’t start against Jordan like Degenek and Holland.  Maybe Curtis at left back again?

A few tall guys on the bench in case we aren’t getting the job done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So that’s it, we’re officially through to the next round.

Watched the replay. Nepal looked a completely different side to the rabble we played in 2019. They played well actually. We were decent and got the job done.

Our line up below. Starting debut to Metcalfe, who looked like he belonged.

The official line was 442 but actually I though we played lop sided again. Boyle played as a left winger but Hrustric played as a traditional 10.

(still no Taggart, I haven’t seen that he’s injured, a bit weird)

35E3CCC5-5524-4734-B91D-27CD83D6266A.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pots for the all important third round as below.

Open Photo

Iran, SA, UAE, Oman & Lebanon prob the ideal matchups, although the only ones i'd be overly keen to avoid are China, Syria and Japan tbh.
Syria are in good nick atm and look a way better prospect than Oman, and whilst trips away to the UAE and Iran would be difficult, i likewise think we are a far more likely prospect should we face them at home. China and Japan are both more likely to come here and get a result imo.

Of course if its hubbed again, which is still a very decent chance, then it doesnt matter and you take each team as they come.

Edited by bt50
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Should they not update the FIFA World Rankings before allocating the teams into pots for the next qualifying phase?

Alongside Japan, we were the only nation to win every game in the latest qualifying phase, while Iran lost two games - losing to Iraq and Bahrain. Idk if we'd gain enough points/Iran lose enough points to warrant us climbing above them in ranking, but I'd sure as hell rather not leave it up to chance as to whether we end up grouped with Japan or not.

Either way, the boys did really, really well. Shit pitch, shit conditions and all the usual adversity that comes with playing away in the Middle East. 8 wins out of 8 regardless of opposition is a job well done.

Edited by Nate
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Nate said:

Should they not update the FIFA World Rankings before allocating the teams into pots for the next qualifying phase?

Alongside Japan, we were the only nation to win every game in the latest qualifying phase, while Iran lost two games - losing to Iraq and Bahrain. Idk if we'd gain enough points/Iran lose enough points to warrant us climbing above them in ranking, but I'd sure as hell rather not leave it up to chance as to whether we end up grouped with Japan or not.

Either way, the boys did really, really well. Shit pitch, shit conditions and all the usual adversity that comes with playing away in the Middle East. 8 wins out of 8 regardless of opposition is a job well done.

The two losses two Iran and Bahrain occurred in 2019, the rankings above appear to be the May 2021 rankings. We played 4 games post those rankings whilst Iran played 3. The additional win by us would be insufficient to catch Iran. This is because the points won from Iran's 3 games would be similar to 3 of our wins due to the similar rankings of ours and Iran's opponents. Whilst the points awarded to us from our 4th win (which would be less than 25 points) would not close the 42 point gap.

Edited by malloy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great effort by the coach and the players to get through with 8 out of 8 wins. 
Idiots out there say “oh we should win by more”. In the past we actually lost plenty (let alone won by massive margins).

Armchair footballers forget a couple of things:

1) playing in scorching heat away from home is not easy

2) Our country has a limited talent pool to draw on. Our footballers are all decent players, but they are nearly all playing in the equivalent of 2nd and 3rd tier leagues around the world.

Now to the next round. Based on this I reckon we can qualify. Arnold knows his players.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Great effort by the coach and the players to get through with 8 out of 8 wins. 
Idiots out there say “oh we should win by more”. In the past we actually lost plenty (let alone won by massive margins).

Armchair footballers forget a couple of things:

1) playing in scorching heat away from home is not easy

2) Our country has a limited talent pool to draw on. Our footballers are all decent players, but they are nearly all playing in the equivalent of 2nd and 3rd tier leagues around the world.

Now to the next round. Based on this I reckon we can qualify. Arnold knows his players.

I get the impression that a lot of casual fans think that the strength of a country's national team is correlated with either; that country's status on the world stage from an economic perspective; or how ideal that country is as a tourist destination. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, malloy said:

The two losses two Iran and Bahrain occurred in 2019, the rankings above appear to be the May 2021 rankings. We played 4 games post those rankings whilst Iran played 3. The additional win by us would be insufficient to catch Iran. This is because the points won from Iran's 3 games would be similar to 3 of our wins due to the similar rankings of ours and Iran's opponents. Whilst the points awarded to us from our 4th win (which would be less than 25 points) would not close the 42 point gap.

Holy fuck 2019? woops lmao, I forgot how long this qualifying phase has been dragging on for - my bad

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

ah fuck, we got Japan lmao.

I think we've got a great group otherwise - the Saudis will be tough but I think we've got them covered. We struggle more against Iraq and Syria than we do Oman and China and I think we'll be too good/strong for Vietnam, though they will surprise these qualifiers and could definitely finish 3rd if they have a good run.

 

Edited by Nate
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Imagine calling up a 30 year old playing in the Japanese second div over a 23 year old playing regularly for a Europa League quarter finalist.

Don't even get me started on Arzani getting called up either, he wouldn't even cut it in the A-League on current form. 

Sack Arnold. 

Edited by Tesla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...