A-League Expansion

[jw1739]

IMO the real problem with expansion is that there are no fixed criteria that MUST be met by any entity seeking to field a team in the A-League. It appears prima facie that any supposed criteria can be modified to suit an applicant favoured for some other reason. To me it was obvious that the best Victorian bid came from Team11, and IMO that has been vindicated by City's move to Casey Fields. Ironically I see that move as the final death of Team11.

What the fixed criteria should be I don't know - I have ideas, but I don't know. However I would have thought that a team with an amorphous name such as "Western United" is a no-no, that each team should have an identifiable catchment area for both players and supporters (fans and financial), and a fixed home base. Stadiums are a vexed issue - Melbourne is far worse off than Sydney in this regard - but anything that depends on vague promises from councils or governments, or tortuous application processes is IMO a no-no. This was IMO the weak point for Team11. IMO one of the weaknesses of the Women's League is that you never know where the team will be playing from one match to the next.

I actually think that names are very important, especially for people who have a casual interest in the game but are not fanatical. My late wife could never understand what "Central Coast Mariners" stood for, and it was hard work to get her to go to see us play them. As I explained it for the nth time she would say "Why don't they call the club Gosford?" She wasn't overwhelmed by "Western Sydney" either.

When I look back the launch of Heart was done pretty successfully. The alliance with Latrobe and the commitment to play at AAMI were master strokes by Scott Munn. I may not like foreign ownership of football clubs, but the move to Casey seems a good one, and I am impressed by that video spiel of Petrillo. It's something that pisses all over Victory and Western. As Milicic said - we are in fact the benchmark club. From those wheelie bins to a $42m HQ at Casey is a great story.

[jw1739]

This is an example of how we're growing as a club and why we are the benchmark.

https://www.melbournecityfc.com.au/news/berwick-city-joins-city-club

[NewConvert]

6 hours ago, jw1739 said:

IMO the real problem with expansion is that there are no fixed criteria that MUST be met by any entity seeking to field a team in the A-League. It appears prima facie that any supposed criteria can be modified to suit an applicant favoured for some other reason. To me it was obvious that the best Victorian bid came from Team11, and IMO that has been vindicated by City's move to Casey Fields. Ironically I see that move as the final death of Team11.

What the fixed criteria should be I don't know - I have ideas, but I don't know. However I would have thought that a team with an amorphous name such as "Western United" is a no-no, that each team should have an identifiable catchment area for both players and supporters (fans and financial), and a fixed home base. Stadiums are a vexed issue - Melbourne is far worse off than Sydney in this regard - but anything that depends on vague promises from councils or governments, or tortuous application processes is IMO a no-no. This was IMO the weak point for Team11. IMO one of the weaknesses of the Women's League is that you never know where the team will be playing from one match to the next.

I actually think that names are very important, especially for people who have a casual interest in the game but are not fanatical. My late wife could never understand what "Central Coast Mariners" stood for, and it was hard work to get her to go to see us play them. As I explained it for the nth time she would say "Why don't they call the club Gosford?" She wasn't overwhelmed by "Western Sydney" either.

When I look back the launch of Heart was done pretty successfully. The alliance with Latrobe and the commitment to play at AAMI were master strokes by Scott Munn. I may not like foreign ownership of football clubs, but the move to Casey seems a good one, and I am impressed by that video spiel of Petrillo. It's something that pisses all over Victory and Western. As Milicic said - we are in fact the benchmark club. From those wheelie bins to a $42m HQ at Casey is a great story.

Maybe that was why Team 11 did not win the bid.

[jw1739]

12 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Maybe that was why Team 11 did not win the bid.

That thought did cross my mind. But to have actively worked to thwart the Team11 bid would have meant that CFG was already eyeing off Casey Fields 2-3 years ago. Not impossible though.

[CityBoyz]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

That thought did cross my mind. But to have actively worked to thwart the Team11 bid would have meant that CFG was already eyeing off Casey Fields 2-3 years ago. Not impossible though.

Brad Rowse said in the press conference confirming Casey move that Victory and City supported the Team 11 bid and thought they were the best bid. They started collaborating with Team11 once they lost.

Can’t say CFG don’t care if you add up up both HQ in Casey and Bundoora they would have spend over 60m just on training facilities in Melbourne 

[MHFC-FAN]

So word is Macarthur are in financial trouble and if true will either be trying to A. Sell the franchise to another buyer. B. Apl to step in and take care while another buyer or possible re location is sought.

By the sounds of the way the NBL team in Tassie (jackoffs) are going it has now pricked the ears of the AFL to consider setting up a team down there. A League should be considering getting in sooner than later before it becomes a very crowded professional sporting market... 

[jw1739]

11 minutes ago, MHFC-FAN said:

So word is Macarthur are in financial trouble and if true will either be trying to A. Sell the franchise to another buyer. B. Apl to step in and take care while another buyer or possible re location is sought.

By the sounds of the way the NBL team in Tassie (jackoffs) are going it has now pricked the ears of the AFL to consider setting up a team down there. A League should be considering getting in sooner than later before it becomes a very crowded professional sporting market... 

I lived in Hobart for almost 15 years. I don't resile from the view that an A-League franchise there would be a disaster. It's not "Tasmania" in a united sense, and people have a strong bond with their region - Hobart, Launceston and the NW-Coast being the principal ones. There is just not the population or the interest in football to support a club there.

If David Gallop was right about anything he was right about any future A-League clubs needing to be situated in major population centres.

Otherwise we will just repeat the failures.

[kingofhearts]

Where has this "rumour" come from?

[Jovan]

3 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

Where has this "rumour" come from?

Surprisingly not you for a change. 

[kingofhearts]

54 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Surprisingly not you for a change. 

Please my rumours are much, much worse then that.

For example, did you know that John "the unlucky one" Aloisi is leaving nomad United after the end of this season to coach shitney fc?

[jw1739]

So, APL has identified Canberra and Auckland for expansion to take effect in 2024-25. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-15/a-leagues-canberra-auckland-club-expansion-2024-25-season/102093336 and thereafter "is looking at Tasmania and Darwin." The latter seems pretty much like putting Exeter City and Berwick Rangers into the EPL because they are at opposite ends of England.

Meanwhile Football Australia is pushing a "National Second Division" with "maybe" or "perhaps" promotion and relegation sometime in the future.

I just hope that they are talking to one another, even though IMO both are deluded. So Wellington and Auckland finish first and second in the League and neither can take part in Asian Football Confederation competitions....Or, sometime in the future (if we're not in the middle of WW3) one of the NZ clubs is relegated...but to where?

Canberra is a logical extension for the A-League, but Auckland doesn't make sense to me. Wollongong, surely?

I can see City dominating the League for years to come. We may not like CFG, but with our financial security and our Academy we've got our shit together.

[heart1011]

So rumours have it that they are going to announce today that from 2024/2025 there will be 2 new teams joining the A League. Hearing it will be a Canberra team which I think definitely makes sense but then a team based out of Auckland? What's everyone's thoughts on this?

For me I can understand Canberra but can't quite understand Auckland. I would have thought a Tasmanian team would have made alot more sense! Or just relocate the homeless mob who have played a few games down there of late! 🤣

Edited March 15 by heart1011

[fensaddler]

Canberra makes plenty of sense. And I can see the argument for Auckland since it creates more local matches for Phoenix, as well as a couple of lucrative derbies. It also cements the A League as an ANZ league. Tasmania has always been one I'd like to see, but the north south split there does make life difficult. 

[MHFC-FAN]

8 minutes ago, heart1011 said:

Hearing it will be a Canberra team which I think definitely makes sense but then a team based out of Auckland? 

 

What's everyone's thoughts on this?

 

For me I can understand Canberra but can't quite understand Auckland. I would have thought a Tasmanian team would have made alot more sense! Or just relocate the homeless mob who have played a few games down there of late! 🤣

Too much white space mate... 

Nah seriously, 2nd team in NZ is not the worst news. Odd in the fact no NZ teams are allowed to compete in any AFC competitions. But a game a week over there is not bad and the derby should be well attended! 

Canberra makes sense and probably could have come in over 5 or more years ago... Definitely good for the league in giving more opportunity for the up and coming fringe youth players more playing opportunities. 

Also there is talk of a further 2 expansion clubs in the season after 2025/26 I believe... 

[heart1011]

1 minute ago, MHFC-FAN said:

Too much white space mate... 

Nah seriously, 2nd team in NZ is not the worst news. Odd in the fact no NZ teams are allowed to compete in any AFC competitions. But a game a week over there is not bad and the derby should be well attended! 

Canberra makes sense and probably could have come in over 5 or more years ago... Definitely good for the league in giving more opportunity for the up and coming fringe youth players more playing opportunities. 

Also there is talk of a further 2 expansion clubs in the season after 2025/26 I believe... 

Any idea what teams they are looking at for 2025/2026?

[MHFC-FAN]

5 minutes ago, heart1011 said:

Any idea what teams they are looking at for 2025/2026?

No idea, but you would have to assume purely Australian teams. Perhaps another in either Queensland, Adelaide or Perth? 

[heart1011]

50 minutes ago, MHFC-FAN said:

No idea, but you would have to assume purely Australian teams. Perhaps another in either Queensland, Adelaide or Perth? 

Read an article that was talking about Wollongong..

[fensaddler]

45 minutes ago, MHFC-FAN said:

No idea, but you would have to assume purely Australian teams. Perhaps another in either Queensland, Adelaide or Perth? 

NSD may also be up and running by then. There won't be pro-rel so early but several of the bids are state consortia, not individual existing clubs. Expansion could also choose to pluck a couple of NSD teams and move them to the A League? I guess to some extent what happens in the NSD might influence new A League franchises.

My heart says I want to see a Tasmanian side in the A League, but I also understand that isn't straightforward. And I certainly don't want to see poorly thought through additions like Tarneit Unsupported and Macarthur. 

[jw1739]

I merged the thread with this existing one, which I commented in earlier today.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-15/a-leagues-canberra-auckland-club-expansion-2024-25-season/102093336

[Tangerine]

Two NZ teams makes sense to me. It's either got to be zero or two. I think support will pick up with a NZ derby and bragging rights.

I worry the more the league expands though. Western United have shown there isn't demand for 3 Melbourne teams, and while i think this will improve when they actually play in the West, the next couple of choices are very marginal. Would love to see a Tassie team and think it could work but i worry about what their attendance will be like by season 3 when the shine has worn off and the thousands of free tickets start drying up.

Canberra seems an obvious choice, but again, there are already a lot of teams in NSW. Will they get anyone to matches?

[jw1739]

Western should move to Geelong. Even since Heart 's foundation, failures have been North Queensland (Townsville) and Gold Coast. Putting expansion clubs in growth corridors is dubious as both Western and Macarthur are demonstrating.

I've said many times that Tasmania is a dead duck as far as I am concerned, and I base that on my 14+ years residing in Hobart. Even the Tasmanian State League (Aussie rules) struggles. Tasmania is NOT one united place, and there is a north-south divide, and even the AFL has dillydallied for years over plonking a team there. With all due respect to football, IMO the AFL knows a thing or two about what makes its brand work, and why we think we might know better is beyond me.

David Gallop said years ago that expansion needed to be into existing population centres of 1m or more, and IMO he was right about that.

Superficially Auckland looks sensible, except that New Zealand is a member of the Oceania Football Confederation, and club teams from NZ cannot participate in Asian Football Confederation competitions. IMO that issue needs to be resolved before drawing any more NZ clubs into the A-League. And bear in mind that Rugby Union is far and away the premier football code in NZ.

I cannot understand why we, in football, cannot learn from our mistakes. Only months after selling the Grand Final to Sydney for a paltry $330,000 per club per year over three years, apparently because APL was in financial distress of some degree, we are coming out with yet another expansion proposal when the previous one has not delivered any return so far.

Further, I cannot see how this proposed expansion can fit in with the mooted National Second Division.

[fensaddler]

4 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Western should move to Geelong. Even since Heart 's foundation, failures have been North Queensland (Townsville) and Gold Coast. Putting expansion clubs in growth corridors is dubious as both Western and Macarthur are demonstrating.

I've said many times that Tasmania is a dead duck as far as I am concerned, and I base that on my 14+ years residing in Hobart. Even the Tasmanian State League (Aussie rules) struggles. Tasmania is NOT one united place, and there is a north-south divide, and even the AFL has dillydallied for years over plonking a team there. With all due respect to football, IMO the AFL knows a thing or two about what makes its brand work, and why we think we might know better is beyond me.

David Gallop said years ago that expansion needed to be into existing population centres of 1m or more, and IMO he was right about that.

Superficially Auckland looks sensible, except that New Zealand is a member of the Oceania Football Confederation, and club teams from NZ cannot participate in Asian Football Confederation competitions. IMO that issue needs to be resolved before drawing any more NZ clubs into the A-League. And bear in mind that Rugby Union is far and away the premier football code in NZ.

I cannot understand why we, in football, cannot learn from our mistakes. Only months after selling the Grand Final to Sydney for a paltry $330,000 per club per year over three years, apparently because APL was in financial distress of some degree, we are coming out with yet another expansion proposal when the previous one has not delivered any return so far.

Further, I cannot see how this proposed expansion can fit in with the mooted National Second Division.

You don't like this then jw? 😉

Like you, I think WU worked in Geelong and was building a following. However noting that Geelong is a city with a population in the 300,000s, so doesn't pass the Gallop test. But to me definitely works as a location for an A League team. Canberra doesn't pass the Gallop test either but seems to be universally agreed as a good location. I'd suggest Wollongong as another similar candidate. 

Edited March 15 by fensaddler

[jw1739]

33 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

You don't like this then jw? 😉

Like you, I think WU worked in Geelong and was building a following. However noting that Geelong is a city with a population in the 300,000s, so doesn't pass the Gallop test. But to me definitely works as a location for an A League team. Canberra doesn't pass the Gallop test either but seems to be universally agreed as a good location. I'd suggest Wollongong as another similar candidate. 

I don't think it's been thought through to an end-point. You're quite right in terms of the Gallop test - only 5 centres pass it - Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth and Adelaide. IMO you can mount a strong argument that those five centres should be the focus of the League. However, given that we have several clubs outside those centres, then we should look at other possible candidates. 

If you look at the following you will see the next in a list of "possible locations." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by_population But IMO it's more than just population. Factors such as demographics and "football heritage" should be considered.

Interestingly, when we consider New Zealand, Wellington has a population of around 220,000 and Auckland 1.7m.

[Le Hack]

Canberra and Auckland make sense. Darwin makes no sense, not one team has proposed to enter the NSD, that alone suggests not enough interest. At least Tasmania has one entry in the NSD. Trouble with Tassie is they have pretty much two population centres one North the other South and it's a fair drive between both. I would be more inclined to see Adelaide with another team, they have their entries for the NSD, or try again with a second Qld team, five entries for NSD

[jw1739]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/ng-interactive/2023/mar/17/david-squires-on-a-league-men-expansion-and-the-canberra-roundabouts?CMP=share_btn_link

[jw1739]

On 16/03/2023 at 10:02 AM, Le Hack said:

Canberra and Auckland make sense. Darwin makes no sense, not one team has proposed to enter the NSD, that alone suggests not enough interest. At least Tasmania has one entry in the NSD. Trouble with Tassie is they have pretty much two population centres one North the other South and it's a fair drive between both. I would be more inclined to see Adelaide with another team, they have their entries for the NSD, or try again with a second Qld team, five entries for NSD

I know that I am repeating myself, but I maintain that Auckland makes no sense whatsoever. Any club based in NZ is in the Oceania Football Confederation and cannot compete in either the ACL of AFC Cup. The last Auckland-based team collapsed, and starting another one there just adds even more costs to running the A-League.

There's often a very large gap between possibilities and what a detailed study of facts reveals. Football Australia and now APL seem to fall into that gap with sickening regularity.

[TheStig]

Fiji should be the next expansion side as it has the population to support a side.

[NewConvert]

On 30/03/2023 at 11:53 PM, TheStig said:

Fiji should be the next expansion side as it has the population to support a side.

They'll crush the opposition.