Warren Joyce. As predicted by Serb Hair Dresser.. Goneski

[citymad]

34 minutes ago, HughJass said:

Ray Gatt‏Verified account @Gatty54 2h2 hours ago

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Stay as you were. While not happy with last night, it’s business as usual at Melbourne City.

 

WTF. Oh wait. Our usual business is playing crap and losing to minnows. Ok i get it, we dont like losing, but in no way whatsoever are we going to change a thing...

[n i k o]

22 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

 

Which is really part of the problem. After 3 consecutive losses and just two wins in 9 matches there ought to be "drama" at the club, not just "business as usual." There ought to be a lot of questions being asked, a lot of suggestions for change,  some hard self-assessments, extra drills, shooting practice, goalkeeper sessions, etc. etc. "Business as usual" doesn't convey any sense of urgency to improve IMO.

Normally I'd say ok whatever, but Gatt is biased and simply doesn't like us. I have no time for him at all. 

[Dylan]

[johnno cpfc]

47 minutes ago, Dylan said:

Oh yeah, just prove it otherwise Belt Up.

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by johnno cpfc
additional text

[kingofhearts]

1 hour ago, Dylan said:

I'm hearing similar things from my source...  A big change is incoming. 

[JMSTEP123]

Wazza better pack his shorts

[rass]

OK time for my say. It's so fukn obvious, it's been said a million times already but I'll have a sip anyway.

Firstly, I have supported this bloke since the start, even defended his decision to not use the bench last week (still agree with BTW).

Last night however lost me completely. Yeah some responsibility goes on to the players - e.g. twice in 3 weeks we've conceded 2 goals in 1 minute, WTF? - but how you can make only one sub chasing an out of form team is as close to sabotage as I've ever seen... And that sub was to take off the only bloke who looked like scoring. Woeful.

Wazza, it's time to commit your best players to their best positions. If you want to play 4 at the back, then it's Jako and Bart at CB. No more plugging round holes with square pegs. Jamo at LB and prob Atkinson at RB though he needs more work as a defender. RWB is probably a better fit for him.

This whole idea of playing Jako as a midfielder must stop now. It has caused a flow on effect all over the pitch. Brattan is a very good player. What he isn't, is an attacking midfielder who can play with no support around him.

For mine, if you're playing a 3 man midfield, stick with a defensive minded (#6), a box to box (#8) and an attacking minded playmaker (#10). Obviously all of those players can get forward or back but the above are their default roles. It's pretty simple. However we play 2 defensive minded (2 #6s) and a #8. Therefore the 8 has to roam deeper and there is no link to our striker. No wonder McCormack gets fuk all proper service. Look through our books and it's sad to see probably the best #10 to have played in the league in Carrusca is on there. Vidosic impressed for Wellington against us earlier this year playing that attacking mid role, so FFS let's hope he plays there and is the answer. Play Brattan as your 8 and keep Malik as the 6. Sadly I think Kilkenny's future is no longer with us.

Up front, I don't want to see Kamau anywhere near this team ever again. Watching him play reminds me of a player who has his mind on higher things, like Europe or the national team. Priority is self preservation, the amount of contests he goes half arsed into isn't good enough. He trains like a beast though which in my eyes makes him a total fraud.

Keep Fitzy, Ross and perhaps Arzani who has so much potential, or even better, go and get a visa winger. There's a shitload of Brasilians out of contract ATM who would be better than what we have... Or just bring Novillo back.

We have the players and the resources so cut the bullshit now and make it work. It's not dead yet.

...and if it means getting rid of Wazza, then just do it.

(BTW took me two hours to write what really isn't rocket science)

[belaguttman]

Popa plays a similar style to Wazza so it makes little sense in terms of the style that CFG want to replace Wazza with Popa

[Tesla]

As the usual proprietor of manager sacking threads, I would like to give this thread my blessing.

[HeartFc]

Prins brothers still playing at Berwick? (assuming on this forum)

[Murfy1]

I think I agree with every point of Rass's assessment. A very good yet entirely fair summary of the situation with Joyce.

 

I can also imagine a just a couple of significant changes turning things around in a big way.

 

Unfortunately, that would require Joyce to change his decisions, instead of digging in his heels. And after his press conference yesterday, I'm far from optimistic about that..

[Tesla]

Him persisting with Malik all season should be a sackable offence alone.  

[HeartFc]

29 minutes ago, Tesla said:

Him persisting with Malik all season should be a sackable offence alone.  

True but after you add Jako into the mid thus leaving Kilkenny on the outta, signing and unknown marquee and destroying his confidence within a month, allowing La Rocca in the carpark let alone on the pitch and making no subs when down by a goal, it just looks like either straight up sabotage or the bloke has a parasite attached to his cerebrum.

[[LIBBA]]

17 hours ago, Dylan said:

Isn't this the same account that said Zlatan to Melbourne City??

 

 

[jw1739]

I'm not defending Joyce at all, because as far as I can see he is making some horrendous mistakes in the way he is managing the squad. However, when it comes to some of the question marks over signings - e.g. Budzinski - it should be remembered that it was Munn and Petrillo who went to Manchester to discuss recruitment with CFG. It was not Warren Joyce.

I also think we should also remember that there have been persistent problems in this club - for example with retaining assistant coaches, and with marquee signings  (Koren) - long before Joyce came into the equation.

 

[Dylan]

5 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

I'm not defending Joyce at all, because as far as I can see he is making some horrendous mistakes in the way he is managing the squad. However, when it comes to some of the question marks over signings - e.g. Budzinski - it should be remembered that it was Munn and Petrillo who went to Manchester to discuss recruitment with CFG. It was not Warren Joyce.

I also think we should also remember that there have been persistent problems in this club - for example with retaining assistant coaches, and with marquee signings  (Koren) - long before Joyce came into the equation.

 

Manager has final say on all signings, they are provided a final list and they pick. The article from... last year? by Davutovic or Windley about how Fornaroli got here explained how it works. 

So the signings this season are all on him. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Dylan

[jw1739]

53 minutes ago, Dylan said:

Manager has final say on all signings, they are provided a final list and they pick. The article from... last year? by Davutovic or Windley about how Fornaroli got here explained how it works. 

So the signings this season are all on him. 

I'm sorry, but I think that's an over-simplification of the realities of working in a multi-level organization. I've seen that kind of response before, where senior managers absolve themselves of all responsibility.

[Dylan]

4 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

I'm sorry, but I think that's an over-simplification of the realities of working in a multi-level organization. I've seen that kind of response before, where senior managers absolve themselves of all responsibility.

I would highly highly doubt that Joyce would not have the final say on who he does and doesn't sign.  Its a football club, different from a usual organisation. In fact, if the Burns rumour is true (and the guy who said it has not been wrong so far) it shows that Joyce does have the final say. 

[[LIBBA]]

12 minutes ago, Dylan said:

I would highly highly doubt that Joyce would not have the final say on who he does and doesn't sign.  Its a football club, different from a usual organisation. In fact, if the Burns rumour is true (and the guy who said it has not been wrong so far) it shows that Joyce does have the final say. 

I would be absolutely shocked if he doesnt have final say.

From what i remember JVS saying in an interview a while back, he stated that he told the club what type of player he wanted, scouts did their thing and came back with players to chose from.

Budshitski is by far our worst marquee in our clubs history.

[n i k o]

If the coach has final say in all these matters then I find it interesting that they seem to gravitate towards so many Adelaide United players. Couldn't possibly be the Adelaide United link in player recruitment by any chance? 

[Embee]

7 minutes ago, n i k o said:

If the coach has final say in all these matters then I find it interesting that they seem to gravitate towards so many Adelaide United players. Couldn't possibly be the Adelaide United link in player recruitment by any chance? 

I don't think the club actively forces coaches to take players they don't want. As @[LIBBA] stated I'm pretty sure the process would be that the coach tells the recruiting staff what kind of players he wants, is presented with a list of choices and greenlights the options he's happy with, upon which time it's up to Petrillo and co. to close the deals.

As far as the obvious Adelaide connection, I'd say that's definitely down to Petrillo obviously, he's clearly got pre-existing connections with them and their agents, making it easier to close said deals, and if the players are good enough why not exploit those connections? 

If Warren didn't want any of those player's I doubt they'd have brought them in, but for the most part he's had just about all of them in and around the first team squad (even the ones signed before he came to the club) and as far as I'm concerned none of the ex-Adelaide bunch we have are anywhere near being our worst players, even though Kamau is falling down that list quickly.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Embee

[Imtellingyou]

Whilst awaiting much anticipated next round what else than lament about Wazza. After last two rounds or better say loses, he publicly criticised players and distanced himself.  Good coach never ever does that. In the normal situation this is beggining of an end. 

But in our case where the real management is on the opposite end of the world that's probably nothing. Yet, in that other world, players are selected and managed by Pellegrini and Guardiola.  Forget about the names, it's about completely different profile and game understanding . Apart from the ownership it's hard to pickup any similarities. 

[Dylan]

6 minutes ago, Imtellingyou said:

Whilst awaiting much anticipated next round what else than lament about Wazza. After last two rounds or better say loses, he publicly criticised players and distanced himself.  Good coach never ever does that. In the normal situation this is beggining of an end. 

But in our case where the real management is on the opposite end of the world that's probably nothing. Yet, in that other world, players are selected and managed by Pellegrini and Guardiola.  Forget about the names, it's about completely different profile and game understanding . Apart from the ownership it's hard to pickup any similarities. 

well we always wanted differentiation between CFG clubs. We are the bastard cousin

[CityHeart]

A lot of banter which isn't really the point here -  of course an a-league coach would have have say in any imports, but really nobody can scout the world and know what is best, and can only work with them to get the best player they believe they need.

Guardiolia is obviously in a different boat - he can specifically name and demand individuals he wants/needs and will probably get em. The pond he is working in is much smaller obviously etc, the world's elite.

But, surely a coach's role is to get the best out of whatever group he has. And whilst I was happy to give Joyce time, I think the last few games he has crossed the line to where no reasonable fan could argue he is getting the best out of the group at his disposal.

I think WJ was brought here to fix something specific, and perhaps his experience shows that he knows what is wrong here and has identified issues with culture etc, but the bottom line is that he is a very poor league coach and tactically out of his depth. He seems extremely stubborn too. None of this augers well for a club which has struggled since inception.

We need clear management at this club, above and beyond the head coach. We need to reset - best (or best available) proven A-league coach, and best (or best available but I think money talks here) A-league CEO to drive the organisation & culture etc.

It needs to be done ASAP too - as a fan since day dot, even with our poor history I dont think I have ever felt so distanced from this club. Apathy is setting in. 

[n i k o]

35 minutes ago, Embee said:

I don't think the club actively forces coaches to take players they don't want. As @[LIBBA] stated I'm pretty sure the process would be that the coach tells the recruiting staff what kind of players he wants, is presented with a list of choices and greenlights the options he's happy with, upon which time it's up to Petrillo and co. to close the deals.

As far as the obvious Adelaide connection, I'd say that's definitely down to Petrillo obviously, he's clearly got pre-existing connections with them and their agents, making it easier to close said deals, and if the players are good enough why not exploit those connections? 

If Warren didn't want any of those player's I doubt they'd have brought them in, but for the most part he's had just about all of them in and around the first team squad (even the ones signed before he came to the club) and as far as I'm concerned none of the ex-Adelaide bunch we have are anywhere near being our worst players, even though Kamau is falling down that list quickly.

As you've stated in the right process that's what would occur. 

No I don't think they do either, but they may very well influence decisions for those reasons you state. And if the player is good enough then yes for sure it'd be advantageous to exploit those connections.

So then my first question/point is we have signed a lot of Adelaide players...were these players the best we could sign at the time or was it a matter of convenience due to past connections of Petrillo?

Secondly, of all the Adelaide players signed how many are actually starting for us and performing well? La Rocca is the stand out. Next would have to be Malik? If of all the Adelaide players we have signed he is our next best right now in this moment then I'm dissapointed with the standard of the recruiting process with former Adelaide players. If this connection to Adealide does make it easier to close deals, connect with players agents etc. and if this is the main reason we gravitate towards them then for me it's been a failure given the season thus far. 

With your last paragraph that's the part we really don't know. The player recruitment process. 

 

Ive edited this just to add the elephant in the room in all this discussion: Warren Joyce and his ability as coach. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by n i k o

[Embee]

3 minutes ago, n i k o said:

As you've stated in the right process that's what would occur. 

No I don't think they do either, but they may very well influence decisions for those reasons you state. And if the player is good enough then yes for sure it'd be advantageous to exploit those connections.

So then my first question/point is we have signed a lot of Adelaide players...were these players the best we could sign at the time or was it a matter of convenience due to past connections of Petrillo?

Secondly, of all the Adelaide players signed how many are actually starting for us and performing well? La Rocca is the stand out. Next would have to be Malik? If of all the Adelaide players we have signed he is our next best right now in this moment then I'm dissapointed with the standard of the recruiting process with former Adelaide players. If this connection to Adealide does make it easier to close deals, connect with players agents etc. and if this is the main reason we gravitate towards them then for me it's been a failure given the season thus far. 

With your last paragraph that's the part we really don't know. The player recruitment process. 

 

Ive edited this just to add the elephant in the room in all this discussion: Warren Joyce and his ability as coach. 

All fair points, there's a very real chance Petrillo stays within his comfort zone, I guess we'll never really know.

Jamieson is one that was there during Petrillo's time and I think he's been pretty good, better than any fullback we've had recently anyway. Galekovic was performing much better than Bouzanis IMO and outside of a mistake or two had been pretty good for us early on. I also think Mauk has been performing well enough in a role that isn't really that well suited to what he can offer to the side, I'd personally have him playing deep alongside Brattan or Malik with a real #10 in front of them both.

I still think the failure is mostly down to the coach and that the squad we've put together should be performing better, especially given the coach has actively not utilized former first team players

[HeartOfCity]

19 minutes ago, CityHeart said:

A lot of banter which isn't really the point here -  of course an a-league coach would have have say in any imports, but really nobody can scout the world and know what is best, and can only work with them to get the best player they believe they need.

Guardiolia is obviously in a different boat - he can specifically name and demand individuals he wants/needs and will probably get em. The pond he is working in is much smaller obviously etc, the world's elite.

But, surely a coach's role is to get the best out of whatever group he has. And whilst I was happy to give Joyce time, I think the last few games he has crossed the line to where no reasonable fan could argue he is getting the best out of the group at his disposal.

I think WJ was brought here to fix something specific, and perhaps his experience shows that he knows what is wrong here and has identified issues with culture etc, but the bottom line is that he is a very poor league coach and tactically out of his depth. He seems extremely stubborn too. None of this augers well for a club which has struggled since inception.

We need clear management at this club, above and beyond the head coach. We need to reset - best (or best available) proven A-league coach, and best (or best available but I think money talks here) A-league CEO to drive the organisation & culture etc.

It needs to be done ASAP too - as a fan since day dot, even with our poor history I dont think I have ever felt so distanced from this club. Apathy is setting in. 

I agree, and its been said 1 million times before no doubt but the back room staff need to be changed! The cleanout that should have happened never took place, i seriously think CFG have no spine when it comes to this as they probably think they can look after it from Manchester. You need good people closer to the coal face to run stuff for you. I would like to see a hard nosed leader behind the scenes. Marshmellow Munn doesnt strike me as the right man for the job, never has. 

[Embee]

I'm surprised nobody here has zeroed in on Brian Marwood yet, of all the head honchos I think he rubber stamps more than any of them.

[belaguttman]

40 minutes ago, Dylan said:

well we always wanted differentiation between CFG clubs. We are the bastard cousin

No, we're the shit sibling

[n i k o]

16 minutes ago, Embee said:

All fair points, there's a very real chance Petrillo stays within his comfort zone, I guess we'll never really know.

Jamieson is one that was there during Petrillo's time and I think he's been pretty good, better than any fullback we've had recently anyway. Galekovic was performing much better than Bouzanis IMO and outside of a mistake or two had been pretty good for us early on. I also think Mauk has been performing well enough in a role that isn't really that well suited to what he can offer to the side, I'd personally have him playing deep alongside Brattan or Malik with a real #10 in front of them both.

I still think the failure is mostly down to the coach and that the squad we've put together should be performing better, especially given the coach has actively not utilized former first team players

Jamieson was there going back almost a decade during Petrillos stint as Director of Football for about a year when they overlapped during the 2009/2010 season. To be fair he's been ok without being anything special however my point is directed more towards former Adleaide players signed over to us. 

I agree with all those points too. Personally I do prefer to work off our current situation which to me is pretty bleak given those players current roles within the team, but that's a never ending discussion point due to so many possibilities. No matter what it boils down to your last sentence. Our current situation is mostly a result of the decision making of Warren Joyce. 

 

10 minutes ago, Embee said:

I'm surprised nobody here has zeroed in on Brian Marwood yet, of all the head honchos I think he rubber stamps more than any of them.

I don't know his role well enough or the say he has on players which I'd imagine would be minimal. However you're right, once we then start to discuss Petrillo, Joyce then the discussion shifts to Marwood and his decision making. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by n i k o

[jw1739]

Interesting discussion. The fact is that we are not a standard football club. We are a part of a global business operation. The best analogy - not perfect of course - that I can come up with after my management experience is that we are a bit like a local mine or smelter/refinery site in a global mining and metals company. Sure, there is a local management structure headed by a site manager, but sitting above that are always several layers of senior management, and that is where policy, strategy etc. are decided, and (in my experience) the senior appointments under the site manager are decided., and if not actually decided they are given the stamp of approval.

In terms of Petrillo and the signing of ex-Adelaide players, the impression I get (but I may be wrong) is that we sign more players direct from Adelaide than any other A-League club. 

[JMSTEP123]

Link https://aligaweb.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/a-league-melbourne-city-se-prepara-para-un-enero-agitado-y-lleno-de-rumores/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Several players are asking to leave the team in advance because the coach does not take them into account. In turn, nobody guarantees Joyce's continuity.

The City is a powder keg ready to explode. The different versions surrounding the team suggest that the coming days will be decisive for the future of the institution run by Arab capitals.

According to News Corp Neil Kilkenny and Poland's Marcin Budzinski would have asked the managers to be able to transfer to the January market. The case of Budzinski is the most resounding since the playmaker arrived in Australia in August as one of the marquee players of the team - the other is the injured Bruno Fornaroli - but his level never became optimal.

Another one that could leave is Ross McCormack. The Scottish forward was hired urgently to replace Fornaroli and he has done really well, scoring eight goals. But the continuous roses with coach Warren Joyce and the doubts about his physical form have put a question mark to his continuity in aussie soil . It is presumed that he will return to English club Aston Villa, owner of his card.

Now, Joyce's continuity is also a high point. Many have pointed out that the problem is not the players but the head of the group. Since the departure of Tim Cahill and Field Assistant Michael Valkanis the air is cut with a knife in Bundoora. The support received by the head coach by the City Football Group was not translated into results and it would already be thought to replace him.

According to some very reliable sources, the one chosen by the managers of the citizen squad would be Tony Popovic. The former coach of Western Sydney Wanderers is currently free after his failed adventure in the first division of Turkey, so he would be available if called urgently.

 

[playmaker]

Considering Wazza has been with us for 6 months and

1 really hasn't had control of one transfer period,

2 had to do a fair bit of damage control with injuries, egos, and culture,

3 club turmoil and years of under-performance ,

4 had to get his head around a capped league and it's intricacies 

I think we are being unreasonable calling for his head.

Our mindset has to do with our past disappointments under JVS rather than Wazza's time because in reality it was never going to be an easy fix. The reactions are understandable as we all hunger our first real success however if you take the emotion out of it, then Wazza needs time and if he uses this transfer period effectively then our performances will improve.

Give him until the end of the season.

[JMSTEP123]

1 minute ago, playmaker said:

Considering Wazza has been with us for 6 months and

1 really hasn't had control of one transfer period,

2 had to do a fair bit of damage control with injuries, egos, and culture,

3 club turmoil and years of under-performance ,

4 had to get his head around a capped league and it's intricacies 

I think we are being unreasonable calling for his head.

Our mindset has to do with our past disappointments under JVS rather than Wazza's time because in reality it was never going to be an easy fix. The reactions are understandable as we all hunger our first real success however if you take the emotion out of it, then Wazza needs time and if he uses this transfer period effectively then our performances will improve.

Give him until the end of the season.

Holistically yes I agree. On the whole he has a massive job that I am not trivializing.

However, I dont think he is the man that is going to be successful in overturning the above problems. I think his culture of success has heavily undermined so many players confidence, and made it near impossible to build something close to our potential. He is not transparent, and his excuses seem pathetic on the whole. 

I dont think he is the manager that will find us success on and off the park.

[playmaker]

17 minutes ago, JMSTEP123 said:

Link https://aligaweb.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/a-league-melbourne-city-se-prepara-para-un-enero-agitado-y-lleno-de-rumores/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

They must be reading this forum

[JMSTEP123]

5 minutes ago, playmaker said:

They must be reading this forum

I often wonder how credible their sources are....

[playmaker]

Just now, JMSTEP123 said:

I often wonder how credible their sources are....

This forum's credibility is the gold standard. We all know that. The world knows that. 

[CityHeart]

The real question is - if we were going to look for proven a-league coaches, would Poppa be on the CFG shortlist?

If so, he is available now. The opportunity cost of giving Wazza more time is losing this guy who surely will get another gig sooner rather than later.

[jw1739]

MELBOURNE CITY
Ladder position: fourth
Four wins out of four to start the season had City fans believing this was their year.
But it’s been a roller-coaster last couple of months for Warren Joyce’s troops since.
Just two wins from their last nine games has seen City lose touch with league-leaders Sydney FC and all of a sudden looking behind them at the chasing pack.
With attacking stars Tim Cahill and Fernando Brandan leaving the club, and Ross McCormack’s future unclear, there are questions whether City have the firepower to challenge for honours later in the campaign.
The impending return of Bruno Fornaroli and the acquisition of Dario Vidosic is a start but what kind of business they can do during the January transfer window could be key.
While their form slump is a concern, they are still in  handy spot in fourth position.
But until they find a bit more consistency and cohesion in their game, the chances of going from pretenders to contenders appear remote.
Report card mark: B-
https://www.a-league.com.au/news/hyundai-a-league-mid-season-report-card-part-1

[CityHeart]

1 hour ago, HeartOfCity said:

I agree, and its been said 1 million times before no doubt but the back room staff need to be changed! The cleanout that should have happened never took place, i seriously think CFG have no spine when it comes to this as they probably think they can look after it from Manchester. You need good people closer to the coal face to run stuff for you. I would like to see a hard nosed leader behind the scenes. Marshmellow Munn doesnt strike me as the right man for the job, never has. 

yep, 100%.

9 years is a long time for any CEO without company ownership really, and considering he has been there and and been, let's be honest, a failure on and predominately off the field. I have no idea how he has gone this far. Utter Teflon.