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42nd Melbourne Derby 17/12 7.45 pm


Le Hack
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Two things to note for me beyond a deep sense of sadness that we're not talking about a football game lit up by that fabulous O'Neill goal.

1. Despite all that was done by the Victory terrace, on whom much of the blame must lie, we need to get our own house in order. There is a low life element in our own active support which has been getting more prominent. Our active threw several flares onto the pitch, on or near the opposition goalkeeper. That is way beyond acceptable. These people need naming, weeding out and banning. I'm glad some of the photos being circulated are from our end. But there are still far too many prominent voices close to Active who are excusing or covering for these morons.

2. The protests are dead. Any credibility died last night. Finals will be going to Sydney. What case could we make for a final in Melbourne after that? We can't have nice things. Other clubs supporters won't thank us for that. No use saying not us, our supporters were at least partly complicit, even if only a small proportion of the overall damage.

Edited by fensaddler
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Something else that occurs to me. Our club is only off the hook on this because the Victory active went so far beyond. If they hadn't invaded the pitch and assaulted people, likely the story would be how City fans stopped the match because they set the net on fire. That's how close we were to being the pariahs in this. We were so close to being the club looking at sanctions. We're only saved because the Victory active are be several degrees more vile. We need to take action and dob in our dickheads, or we'll be next. Some of our active support really let us and football down, and if active even continues to exist after this, they need to get serious about self policing. Can't keep turning a blind eye to the problems in their midst.

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42 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

Something else that occurs to me. Our club is only off the hook on this because the Victory active went so far beyond. If they hadn't invaded the pitch and assaulted people, likely the story would be how City fans stopped the match because they set the net on fire. That's how close we were to being the pariahs in this. We were so close to being the club looking at sanctions. We're only saved because the Victory active are be several degrees more vile. We need to take action and dob in our dickheads, or we'll be next. Some of our active support really let us and football down, and if active even continues to exist after this, they need to get serious about self policing. Can't keep turning a blind eye to the problems in their midst.

That’s right but look at the statement our active released there was no remorse or an acknowledgment of wrong doing. Sorry guys I’m over active in general bunch of flogs the lot of them 

Edited by citypool
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Of course pursue individuals if they can be identified.

City should be sanctioned over the flares. Glover 12 weeks for throwing a flare back into the crowd. Victory heavily sanctioned over flares and pitch invasion.

Active should be abolished starting with City and Victory, other clubs to follow immediately after any trouble at their club.

Foreign ownership of our clubs should be restricted. Conflicts of interest (such as the Silver Lake stakes in both City and the League) must be eliminated. We cannot make major changes to the way we manage our game while we have overseas interests calling the shots.

City's local management needs a wake-up call. It was clear from Glover's actions that we were under-prepared for what could happen. We can't even get out timely statements because we are just puppets of Abu Dhabi.

Then I awoke from my dream...

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49 minutes ago, citypool said:

That’s right but look at the statement our active released there was no remorse or an acknowledgment of wrong doing. Sorry guys I’m over active in general bunch of flogs the lot of them 

Agreed. First they need to recognise the problem and their part in it. One of my strongest emotions out of this is a sense of broken trust with Active. I and so many others trusted them to do this right. But because the issue of hooliganism in their ranks has been overlooked for a long time, it all went very badly wrong, and killed the protests for all the fan groups in the A League. And I really don't like having to say this, because I don't think active leadership are bad people, or had anything but the best intentions. We're all to some extent guilty of overlooking a growing problem. We collectively can't overlook it any longer.

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41 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

Agreed. First they need to recognise the problem and their part in it. One of my strongest emotions out of this is a sense of broken trust with Active. I and so many others trusted them to do this right. But because the issue of hooliganism in their ranks has been overlooked for a long time, it all went very badly wrong, and killed the protests for all the fan groups in the A League. And I really don't like having to say this, because I don't think active leadership are bad people, or had anything but the best intentions. We're all to some extent guilty of overlooking a growing problem. We collectively can't overlook it any longer.

And you must include the club in your "we." Clubs can't just sit back and trot out the line "we're focussing on the football."

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2 hours ago, fensaddler said:

Agreed. First they need to recognise the problem and their part in it. One of my strongest emotions out of this is a sense of broken trust with Active. I and so many others trusted them to do this right. But because the issue of hooliganism in their ranks has been overlooked for a long time, it all went very badly wrong, and killed the protests for all the fan groups in the A League.

I think that there is an obvious cultural issue in the vist0rs active supporters that isn't present in ours but I suspect both groups also get 'derby day specials' attending that aren't there for the football, and that change the dynamic of the group

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Upon a night's reflection after what I can only describe as some sort of Stockholm syndrome-esque turnaround (influenced by the incredible World Cup final), I've decided I'm going to keep attending City games after all and just skip the finals. 

However, I think that's going to come at the cost of emotionally investing myself in the club/league any longer. Defending this league is exhausting and honestly always has been, and I'm at the point now where I just don't have the emotional capacity to care for Melbourne City outside of the 90 minutes on the pitch. I've also come to the realisation that I don't care as much as I thought I did about atmosphere anymore as we've seen the price paid to achieve it and it's not a price worth paying. 

At the end of the day, I love the game too much to give up on it but I'm done with the politics, protesting and I'm done with caring about the health of the club and the league. I'm just going to go and support J-Mac and co and then go home.

Maybe that's exactly the type of fan the APL and City wanted all along.

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Where to start. Shock is one way of putting it. I've seen so many debates about what went wrong here, many of those debates start with "if so and so didn't happen then xyz wouldn't have happened." Quite frankly each incident needs to be looked at separately. We are dealing with adults across the board with responsibility for their own actions. 

I'll start with Tom Golver. I don't care if its accidental or not, he deserves punishment for what he did. Absolutely stupid. 4 game ban plus a fine. 

City Terrace. I don't mind flares at all. In fact I enjoy them when used appropriately but the way in which they were launched in such numbers and burning the goal net, they need to be sanctioned. Active need to be banned for 3 home games. Fines for the club.

Osm and victory. All active support banned for the remainder of the season. The club to play the next 3 games behind closed doors. Heavy fines for club. No more points awarded for the remainder of the season and a negative 6 point start to next season. 

APL. Where to begin and what to do with them is beyond me. Shocking decision moving the finals. Deserve ongoing protests as per previous plans. No support during finals. 

Vicpol. There was already talk about plans for a pitch invasion. Where was their intelligence. And it took how long for them to come out onto the pitch after. Terrible policing. After years of over policing they go easy at the time when it was needed the most. 

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18 minutes ago, Le Hack said:

Same same. I'm going to attend on 27th against CCM and carry on supporting just skip the finals. Disappointed with Glover and City Terrace, probably both deserve some minor sanctions. At least we're not MV though

I agree with you. I’m going to watch the ladies play before and have a great afternoon 👍 

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2 hours ago, belaguttman said:

I think that there is an obvious cultural issue in the vist0rs active supporters that isn't present in ours but I suspect both groups also get 'derby day specials' attending that aren't there for the football, and that change the dynamic of the group

You're right Bela I think. Maybe a first task for Active is to identify their trusted regulars, so that they can also identify and if necessary eliminate the derby specials. They'll need help from the club and possibly VicPol. This is a complex job well beyond the resources of an active supporter group.

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53 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Vicpol. There was already talk about plans for a pitch invasion. Where was their intelligence. And it took how long for them to come out onto the pitch after. Terrible policing. After years of over policing they go easy at the time when it was needed the most. 

They were outside waiting for the fans to leave but did notice less than usual around the place 

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33 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

You're right Bela I think. Maybe a first task for Active is to identify their trusted regulars, so that they can also identify and if necessary eliminate the derby specials. They'll need help from the club and possibly VicPol. This is a complex job well beyond the resources of an active supporter group.

AFAIK they have always resisted involvement with the club, right back to the Yarraside days.

But that was yesterday. IMO the only way forward from here, if active is to continue, is with the involvement of the club, because they have demonstrated that (and not surprisingly) they cannot control rogue elements themselves. I see it as a win-win; active would continue and the club would accept more responsibility for that element of its fanbase.

 

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3 hours ago, n i k o said:

Where to start. Shock is one way of putting it. I've seen so many debates about what went wrong here, many of those debates start with "if so and so didn't happen then xyz wouldn't have happened." Quite frankly each incident needs to be looked at separately. We are dealing with adults across the board with responsibility for their own actions. 

I'll start with Tom Golver. I don't care if its accidental or not, he deserves punishment for what he did. Absolutely stupid. 4 game ban plus a fine. 

City Terrace. I don't mind flares at all. In fact I enjoy them when used appropriately but the way in which they were launched in such numbers and burning the goal net, they need to be sanctioned. Active need to be banned for 3 home games. Fines for the club.

Osm and victory. All active support banned for the remainder of the season. The club to play the next 3 games behind closed doors. Heavy fines for club. No more points awarded for the remainder of the season and a negative 6 point start to next season. 

APL. Where to begin and what to do with them is beyond me. Shocking decision moving the finals. Deserve ongoing protests as per previous plans. No support during finals. 

Vicpol. There was already talk about plans for a pitch invasion. Where was their intelligence. And it took how long for them to come out onto the pitch after. Terrible policing. After years of over policing they go easy at the time when it was needed the most. 

I think a failure of APL is that due to the intel of a potential pitch invasion, they should have instructed the referee to suspend match at 20 minute mark and resume once the situation had resolved (likely with Vicpol and security forming barrier to pitch).

Was discussing with mates at around 15 minute mark whether the referee would temporarily suspend the game, how it was not thought of by the powers that be is surprising.

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21 minutes ago, haz said:

 

Quite brilliant.

Victory pressed hard early and made those first 10 minutes or so uncomfortable. But the moment their press softened, we took control and started playing through them confidently. It was a derby, but reckon we could have scored a few more had it gone the distance.

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1 hour ago, rass said:

Quite brilliant.

Victory pressed hard early and made those first 10 minutes or so uncomfortable. But the moment their press softened, we took control and started playing through them confidently. It was a derby, but reckon we could have scored a few more had it gone the distance.

There looked to be a particular effort to attack their right hand side. Iknoimidis at wing back is disastrous, Geria as the right sided centre back hasn't played much recently and Nani doesn't really help in defence. Van Der Venne, Leckie and Bos all took up good space and they couldn't handle it, even if it was for only 20 minutes 

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3 hours ago, malloy said:

I think a failure of APL is that due to the intel of a potential pitch invasion, they should have instructed the referee to suspend match at 20 minute mark and resume once the situation had resolved (likely with Vicpol and security forming barrier to pitch).

Was discussing with mates at around 15 minute mark whether the referee would temporarily suspend the game, how it was not thought of by the powers that be is surprising.

100%.

Watch any big match in Europe and last 5 to 10 minutes the security "stewards" are massed around the pitch. 

In our scenario it would literally have been 30 metres maybe 50.

Now hindsight is  wonderful thing, but for the dumbness on the pitch, dumness in terrace the overwhelming height of dumbness has to be those responsible for matchday planning. 

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7 hours ago, Afif Adam said:

so what happens after this, do we get the 3 points ? A reset at the 20th minute and what about people that bought tickets for the game ? 

I thought that there were some sort of guidelines for abandoned matches, based on how many minutes had been completed?

Anyway, the whole thing is a shambles. APL has passed the regulatory buck to Football Australia, Townsend doesn't believe that there's really a problem, and there are too many conflicts of interest in the way of what most of us think should happen in terms of sanctions and active support generally. Don't be surprised if there's a pissweak response.

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3 hours ago, jw1739 said:

thought that there were some sort of guidelines for abandoned matches, based on how many minutes had been completed?

It's around the 72nd minute or 75th anything after the result stands. Before that it's up to the FA and after what happened I will assume 3-0 victory given to City. 

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1 hour ago, NewConvert said:

News are reporting that two men have been given life time bans from attending or associating with football in Australia. My first question is why are they not named? Secondly, how will this be policed? and if they breach the ban, what will happen? what are the consequences?

100% agree. Who are these men? What is their background. Are they members, walk ins. It is so important that the sport provides the public context around these issues... otherwise people will simply assume they are just football fans like everyone else. 

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I suppose that this is the sort of situation that IMO we should try to avoid in the future. We're discussing this in various threads, which is inevitable with a subject like this.

I have no problem with individuals being charged and banned, but by itself this will not clean up and clean out undesirables from our game.

I don't resile from the position that the clubs have to be accountable for their members, and APL has to be better prepared for incidents. As @fensaddler has pointed out the current City "active" has an unsavoury element and has moved a long way from the fun days of Yarraside.

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18 hours ago, fensaddler said:

I guess it ties in to determining what happened and who is to blame for it. So it's pretty complex and a lot of evidence to sift. Also priorities I guess. More important to resolve other things right now.

I'm with @Mr MO on this. Such a hoo-ha over "Australia's blackest day in soccer" etc. etc. but we don't appear to be able to address the more simple aspects?

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23 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

I think that's fair enough tbh. Victory only responded yesterday morning and FA have been busy handing out bans to those people identified and police continue to find more people everyday. They've identified over 50 now and charged about 13.

It will happen, perhaps tomorrow we'll start hearing what the sanctions will be for victory as they're due to play Monday and probably need answers by then.

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1 hour ago, NewConvert said:

I am still annoyed as to whether the people who have been given bans were members or not.

Does it matter though? They were part of the Victory active group.

Victory have had a long time to get it right and ultimately haven't been able to control their fans. In the end, the club has to take the responsibility, members or not.

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