Pre-season 2016

[fensaddler]

5 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

I know what you're getting at, but FFS look at the overall picture. 2/12 wins in pre-season against A-League opposition. Six seasons without any silverware, best league position 4/10, no Grand Final appearance. Repeated season after season chokes.

Many of the people on here have poured their support into the club, not only buying season tickets and merchandise etc. - the active groups have spent hours and no little money on banners etc. People travelling to away matches. Even this web-site doesn't come for free you know. Many of us are coming up for our seventh season.

It's an insult to refer to us as having "negative delusions."

But the same for supporters of any club.  Most teams, in any given season, don't win, or achieve anything very much.  Supporters are all just as committed and passionate, the same mix of optimism and pessimism at the start of the season, the same gripes about tactics or recruitment or the manager or money.

I wonder sometimes if the money we've got from CFG has made assumptions of success a little too certain?  Football supporters know it's mostly dross and disappointment, leavened with the occasional success, the memorable goal or derby win, or the emergence of unexpected talent.  That's not lack of ambition, it's just a realistic assessment of the fans lot in life.  It doesn't stop me hoping it all comes good, but it also reminds me that it's just the usual if it doesn't.  Xen acceptance, rather than miserablist whinging, tends to be a better look, and better for mental health too.

[n i k o]

1 minute ago, playmaker said:

While I agree with you, last season we bolstered our defence with Wilko which worked and the reason we lost against Adelaide was because we had no forward thrust with the absence of that brain snapping sooking idiot that was meant to be left forward. The list looks better than last season.

Your really going to pin our season on Novillo? FWIW Adelaide was too good for us, a complete team performance. Relying on one player to overcome this fits in perfectly with JVS results last season. We didnt struggle to score. We struggled to defend. Im not one to make too much of our results against the state league teams but I will when patterns continue to be repeated. These signs are present again this preseason. 

 

[KSK_47]

3 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

But the same for supporters of any club.  Most teams, in any given season, don't win, or achieve anything very much.  Supporters are all just as committed and passionate, the same mix of optimism and pessimism at the start of the season, the same gripes about tactics or recruitment or the manager or money.

I wonder sometimes if the money we've got from CFG has made assumptions of success a little too certain?  Football supporters know it's mostly dross and disappointment, leavened with the occasional success, the memorable goal or derby win, or the emergence of unexpected talent.  That's not lack of ambition, it's just a realistic assessment of the fans lot in life.  It doesn't stop me hoping it all comes good, but it also reminds me that it's just the usual if it doesn't.  Xen acceptance, rather than miserablist whinging, tends to be a better look, and better for mental health too.

I think you will see (if this season pans out exactly as it has every other season) that the frustration is coming from us being so capable, only to be let down over and over by the same issues which do not seem to be addressed ever. In fact they are rewarded because the one in carge of fixing the problems is continuously given new contracts. And whenever someone does want to talk about said problems,  they are dismissed as a depressing dommsdayer. Anyway. I have had this conversation more times than i can count so lets just hope you get to see a new era and dont have to witness managerial decisions so baffling you want to pull out your teeth

[playmaker]

1 minute ago, n i k o said:

Your really going to pin our season on Novillo? FWIW Adelaide was too good for us, a complete team performance. Relying on one player to overcome this fits in perfectly with JVS results last season. We didnt struggle to score. We struggled to defend. Im not one to make too much of our results against the state league teams but I will when patterns continue to be repeated. These signs are present again this preseason. 

 

Come on Niko, you know the value Harry had to our scoring potential and the fact he had to be man marked by multiple defenders therefore unbalancing the opposition's centre defensive structure and allowing scoring opportunities. The score was flattering for Adelaide because we were pressing forward for a win which opened us up on the counter. Sure, Adelaide were a good team, but we needed our best team on park to beat them. We were totally unbalance and lost our scoring potential because he was missing.

[n i k o]

Just now, playmaker said:

Come on Niko, you know the value Harry had to our scoring potential and the fact he had to be man marked by multiple defenders therefore unbalancing the opposition's centre defensive structure and allowing scoring opportunities. The score was flattering for Adelaide because we were pressing forward for a win which opened us up on the counter. Sure, Adelaide were a good team, but we needed our best team on park to beat them. We were totally unbalance and lost our scoring potential because he was missing.

Yes we were. Our team has been unbalanced for a long time, but not due to one player. Your using the same logic that JVS tactics represent. We basically need to outscore opponents to win irrespective of how much they score. How do you explain our results during the season? Over the last 2 seasons? Over the 4 seasons while JVS has been manager? Individual players at fault again? 

[bt50]

Imo there was nothing wrong with our defence last season on a man for man basis. Sure the left full back position wasn’t overly strong but every A-League side usually carries one meh full back.
Assuming Jakobsen is at least the equal of a Kisnorbo or Wilkinson, the story will be the same this season.
The issue is, and always has been the way we play, not the people we put in the role. Comes down to MrVS at the end of the day and is the reason we aren’t winning the league in a canter. Last season we had the best squad, this year I think we’ve made it more rounded and still have the best squad.

JVS will go regardless of where we finish this year IMO, let’s just hope the squad can organise itself into a premiership outfit based purely on the talent available.

[Pigs 2]

It's almost like you cunts forgot JVS is Dutch 

[MHFC-FAN]

The dutch don't defend.

[fensaddler]

23 minutes ago, KSK_47 said:

I think you will see (if this season pans out exactly as it has every other season) that the frustration is coming from us being so capable, only to be let down over and over by the same issues which do not seem to be addressed ever. In fact they are rewarded because the one in carge of fixing the problems is continuously given new contracts. And whenever someone does want to talk about said problems,  they are dismissed as a depressing dommsdayer. Anyway. I have had this conversation more times than i can count so lets just hope you get to see a new era and dont have to witness managerial decisions so baffling you want to pull out your teeth

I guess my perspective is this.  I've spent 35 years supporting a League 1 side in the UK.  There have been plenty of "we should have done better" seasons, and the odd "how the hell did we do that" seasons.  Plenty of crap managers, bad selections, baffling tactics - could write the book, as could many supporters.  All just par for the course.

As for last season, well some truth in our defence not being good enough, though we got better as the season progressed.  Novillo's absence was at times a problem.  But the real issue for me was just baffling inconsistency,  sometimes being brilliant and the next match not turning up, or only turning up when we were two or three down.  That is likely to be a management issue - tactics, motivation or selection.  And yes, our defensive recruitment and retention/release has been baffling at times, not least in this off season.

[Embee]

31 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Imo there was nothing wrong with our defence last season on a man for man basis. Sure the left full back position wasn’t overly strong but every A-League side usually carries one meh full back.
Assuming Jakobsen is at least the equal of a Kisnorbo or Wilkinson, the story will be the same this season.
The issue is, and always has been the way we play, not the people we put in the role. Comes down to MrVS at the end of the day and is the reason we aren’t winning the league in a canter. Last season we had the best squad, this year I think we’ve made it more rounded and still have the best squad.

JVS will go regardless of where we finish this year IMO, let’s just hope the squad can organise itself into a premiership outfit based purely on the talent available.

Basically this, you could give JVS the entire Barcelona squad and he'd still fail to win the league.

[playmaker]

46 minutes ago, bt50 said:

JVS will go regardless of where we finish this year IMO, let’s just hope the squad can organise itself into a premiership outfit based purely on the talent available.

I think JVS will go by round 5 if we under perform. The FFA cup is huge for CFG Imo so his future will be decided next week.

[Jacques Le Cube]

1 hour ago, playmaker said:

 The list looks better than last season.

 

[jw1739]

11 minutes ago, playmaker said:

I think JVS will go by round 5 if we under perform. The FFA cup is huge for CFG Imo so his future will be decided next week.

Well, there you go. I actually liked a post by Playmaker.

Yes, IMO you're right on target with your analysis. It was dumb enough in the first place to arrange the Ballarat Newcastle match for just 3 days before a stiff FFA Cup match, but IMO after we were whipped by Phoenix the ultimatum came down quick smart from Marwood that we better sort ourselves out pretty damned quick. CFG haven't forked out for Fornaroli, Cahill and probably another marquee (rumoured as Colazo), or accumulated the likes of Brattan, Caceres, Brandan, Kilkenny and Jakobsen just for it to be another ho-hum season. Hence a "Select XI" going to Ballarat and a focus on the FFA Cup match.

van 't Schip is on a final warning.

[n i k o]

31 minutes ago, playmaker said:

I think JVS will go by round 5 if we under perform. The FFA cup is huge for CFG Imo so his future will be decided next week.

I don't wanna keep coming at you but you've just affirmed everything we've been saying. If there was no concerning issues with our results, standard of play etc. then JVS future wouldn't be decided over the game next week. 

[Embee]

Can't see them sacking him mid-season, no matter how craptastic he is. I think he goes at the end of season regardless of the final result though.

[n i k o]

Just now, Embee said:

Can't see them sacking him mid-season, no matter how craptastic he is. I think he goes at the end of season regardless of the final result though.

Agree with this. Unless he makes a monumental fuck up. While he floats around 3rd or 4th and we look to be making finals and have the potential to get within top position (the more likely outcome) he'll be here till the end. 

[GreenSeater]

2 minutes ago, Embee said:

Can't see them sacking him mid-season, no matter how craptastic he is. I think he goes at the end of season regardless of the final result though.

Agreed. I think if he was going to be sacked before his contract ended it already would have happened.

[Jovan]

34 minutes ago, playmaker said:

I think JVS will go by round 5 if we under perform. The FFA cup is huge for CFG Imo so his future will be decided next week.

If this happens then thats another season and potentially the next few down the toilet. 

I put this up before if we have an indifferent start to the season that is lose to Wanderers and a loss to Wellington and a poor performance in the Derby then you can basically look at a repeat of last few seasons. 

Alternatively if we win all three and look like an exciting entertaining team then watch everyone jump on board. 

From all the available evidence so far and past experiences I know which scenario is more likely than not.

 

[playmaker]

6 minutes ago, Jovan said:

If this happens then thats another season and potentially the next few down the toilet. 

 

 

Not sure about this as I think Valkanis is there for more than an assistant. And seeing that he has been prepped by Amor and Gombau I think he is ready to step into the role seamlessly.

[KSK_47]

10 hours ago, fensaddler said:

I guess my perspective is this.  I've spent 35 years supporting a League 1 side in the UK.  There have been plenty of "we should have done better" seasons, and the odd "how the hell did we do that" seasons.  Plenty of crap managers, bad selections, baffling tactics - could write the book, as could many supporters.  All just par for the course.

While i get what you are saying, i dont think you can compare a club like hearts to us. We dont have generations of history to fall back on and we have yet to become part of the fabric of the city. Heart/city is not something that has been a part of our lives since the day we were born like many people in europe and the rest of the world. For many of us we feel as though we are building the foundations of what the club will become for our kids. The rejection of mediocrity is a way we can build something to be properly proud of- particularly since the underdog community feel to the club has been stripped. 

In short many of us still dont feel as though the club has properly justified its existence as city.

[fensaddler]

9 hours ago, KSK_47 said:

While i get what you are saying, i dont think you can compare a club like hearts to us. We dont have generations of history to fall back on and we have yet to become part of the fabric of the city. Heart/city is not something that has been a part of our lives since the day we were born like many people in europe and the rest of the world. For many of us we feel as though we are building the foundations of what the club will become for our kids. The rejection of mediocrity is a way we can build something to be properly proud of- particularly since the underdog community feel to the club has been stripped. 

In short many of us still dont feel as though the club has properly justified its existence as city.

Absolutely with you on wanting to build this club.  My project too.  But I suspect that the struggles, the adversity, the near misses and the frustrations will contribute just as much to our commitment, togetherness and sense of shared history as any success we manage to achieve.  My League 1 club is Walsall BTW!  And believe me, that defines adversity...

[KSK_47]

46 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

Absolutely with you on wanting to build this club.  My project too.  But I suspect that the struggles, the adversity, the near misses and the frustrations will contribute just as much to our commitment, togetherness and sense of shared history as any success we manage to achieve.  My League 1 club is Walsall BTW!  And believe me, that defines adversity...

*disclaimer- for some reason i thought you were the scottish guy who supports hearts of Midlothian.

True. And i believe that the worse things got as Heart, the closer and stronger fan community bond became. But unfortunately the things we loved about the club have been taken from us (being underdogs, close knit community, etc) but they have kept the things we were excited to see go (acceptance of mediocrity, no repercussion for non performance, inconsistency). Many of us feel that the club is starting from scratch again and its a great opportunity to learn from the mistakes we made as heart and rectify them. Not being cutthroat about performances- no matter how unimportant the game may be (both from the fans and the club) was one of the biggest mistakes heart made. The "taking positives from a 4-1 loss" attitude needs to go. 

[bt50]

5 minutes ago, KSK_47 said:

*disclaimer- for some reason i thought you were the scottish guy who supports hearts of Midlothian.

True. And i believe that the worse things got as Heart, the closer and stronger fan community bond became. But unfortunately the things we loved about the club have been taken from us (being underdogs, close knit community, etc) but they have kept the things we were excited to see go (acceptance of mediocrity, no repercussion for non performance, inconsistency). Many of us feel that the club is starting from scratch again and its a great opportunity to learn from the mistakes we made as heart and rectify them. Not being cutthroat about performances- no matter how unimportant the game may be (both from the fans and the club) was one of the biggest mistakes heart made. The "taking positives from a 4-1 loss" attitude needs to go. 

I vehemently disagree with you here. We've been nothing short of cold blooded in regards to moving players on; obviously the one thing that has been given too many chances is JVS, but undoubtedly thats a financial decision moreso than anything else and will be rectified by seasons end at the latest. There's not one part of the post CFG era that makes me think we've been accepting of mediocrity;everything is about winning and success. We just havent got there yet.

As for taking positives attitude; a club that is over the top negative about anything and everything is a miserable, unsuccessful club. Players without hope get relegated (or are CCM). Im not saying we should be in fairyland or denial over our performances, i dont think by and large we are, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesnt help either.

[KSK_47]

2 minutes ago, bt50 said:

I vehemently disagree with you here. We've been nothing short of cold blooded in regards to moving players on; obviously the one thing that has been given too many chances is JVS, but undoubtedly thats a financial decision moreso than anything else and will be rectified by seasons end at the latest. There's not one part of the post CFG era that makes me think we've been accepting of mediocrity;everything is about winning and success. We just havent got there yet.

As for taking positives attitude; a club that is over the top negative about anything and everything is a miserable, unsuccessful club. Players without hope get relegated (or are CCM). Im not saying we should be in fairyland or denial over our performances, i dont think by and large we are, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesnt help either.

Exactly. We have been moving players on. Rather than aggressively attack a problem at the source, we are still shifting blame. Its the same problem we have always had. You Cant tell me that if cfg really wanted jvs gone they couldnt find the money?

As for a club being overly negative i am more referring to the wanderes type attitude of never being happy with a 4-1 loss. 

[bt50]

19 minutes ago, KSK_47 said:

Exactly. We have been moving players on. Rather than aggressively attack a problem at the source, we are still shifting blame. Its the same problem we have always had. You Cant tell me that if cfg really wanted jvs gone they couldnt find the money?

As for a club being overly negative i am more referring to the wanderes type attitude of never being happy with a 4-1 loss. 

I dont think we've ever been happy with a 4-1 loss. I highly doubt anyone is sitting there going ah well, it only a game. But you cant sit there and mope either, you need to take what worked, what didnt and apply that going forward. 

We wont be able to attract new players going forward if all our current players are having a shit time because of the negativity.

That’s without even mentioning the marketing aspects and attracting new sponsors and fans. You’re hardly going to win anyone over by saying how shit we are all the time.

 

As far as JVS goes, they fucked up. As I mentioned in another thread giving him a 3 year deal worth 700k a year was suicide given he is completely unproven as a coach. Now my assumption here is that Munn as CEO id required to meet certain targets, and that would include operating profit/loss targets. Writing off anywhere from 700k-1.4mil PLUS the wages the new coach earns completely blows those targets out, so he likely risks his and a lot of his staffs job by sacking JVS, unless he gets the permission of CFG.  
Not saying CFG cant afford it, but if you look relative to all clubs in this competition that’s an expense that would potentially send some of the HAL clubs bankrupt. A rich man is rich because he knows how to invest his money. It’s just food for thought I guess before screaming that the club are accepting mediocrity by not sacking him.

Either way, in my opinion he’ll be gone at the end of the season if not sooner and we can move on. In the meantime lets hope our ‘onfield leaders’ can steer us to a trophy or two.

[jw1739]

Both of you are right. IMO the problem is that neither Heart nor City so far has had a public image of having a winning mentality. It's not what comes across. And in Australian sport it's not about running, jumping, playing well etc. etc. - we like winners - no-one gives a shit about someone coming second.

[n i k o]

Personal gripe has always been JVS comments. I don't think he said anything wrong. He said all the 'right' things like taking the positives, performance over results, getting better at certain parts of the game etc. And keeping perspective that it is a preseason game. However I would rather a more honest approach to these interviews. If the club is aiming to be at the pinnacle of Asian football then the manager needs to be on the same level as this. His comments rarely reach this level and when they do it's almost like he's reminding himself to think like a winner. He doesn't come across as a winner. Plain and simple. 

And as Jw I'd this affects our public image of having a winning mentality. 

[thisphantomfortress]

33 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Both of you are right. IMO the problem is that neither Heart nor City so far has had a public image of having a winning mentality. It's not what comes across. And in Australian sport it's not about running, jumping, playing well etc. etc. - we like winners - no-one gives a shit about someone coming second.

And what is the common denominator? Mr Scott Munn... cue @embee rage

[jw1739]

7 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

And what is the common denominator? Mr Scott Munn... cue @embee rage

I don't think you can pin it on Munn. I don't think I could name the CEOs of the other nine A-League clubs, but there are at least two clubs who give me the message that they're out there to win. Surprise, surprise, they have by far the biggest followings.

Munn has many more things on his plate than performance on the field. That's the Head Coach's area. And as Niko says, our Head Coach just doesn't come across as a winner.

[playmaker]

I don't think Amor comes across as a winner but he won.

I think we may need a non-English speaking manager tbh.

[SHERLOCK]

23 minutes ago, playmaker said:

 

I think we may need a non-English speaking manager tbh.

 

 

[Deeming]

Don't worry (its only preseason / we still have player slots available)

[playmaker]

Winning the silverware on one leg you say..... I tend to agree.

[fensaddler]

Anything on the ticketing arrangements for the match in Ballarat?  So far as I can see the latest message from the club provides no details??

[n i k o]

Long way to go to watch the youth team 

[fensaddler]

11 hours ago, fensaddler said:

Anything on the ticketing arrangements for the match in Ballarat?  So far as I can see the latest message from the club provides no details??

However, for those that aren't complete lightweights who think Ballarat is on the moon, tickets can be purchased from www.hermaj.com/buy-tickets-city-vs-newcastle 

A bit steep at $21.50 each for adults, but I'm sure watching our youth team will be priceless...

[bt50]

Ill just buy mine on the gate tbh. Might be cheaper on the day, who knows?

Pre-match beers and/or feed at the Bunch of Grapes from 1pm if anyone is interested.

[jw1739]

What's happening in the Newcastle match? I can't see anything on the club twitter.

[Heart of oakleigh]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

What's happening in the Newcastle match? I can't see anything on the club twitter.

The game is on sunday at 3pm

[jw1739]

2 minutes ago, Heart of oakleigh said:

The game is on sunday at 3pm

I'm not having a good day, am I?