RD 20: CCM at home

[n i k o]

But didn't we set up as a 4-3-3 in the derby @Murfy1? 

[Red or Dead]

On 19/02/2016 at 5:01 PM, Torn Asunder said:

reckon we'll get a reasonable crowd ... over 10k hopefully

What was the crowd on sunday?

[thisphantomfortress]

5 minutes ago, Red or Dead said:

What was the crowd on sunday?

Including or excluding the 500 additional police?

[Red or Dead]

17 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Including or excluding the 500 additional police?

They wouldn't have scanned their ticket/membership past the turnstiles so excluding.

[jw1739]

7,535.

[Murfy1]

4 hours ago, n i k o said:

But didn't we set up as a 4-3-3 in the derby @Murfy1? 

The point I was making was that we played for 5 or 6 weeks in 3-5-2 before switching to 4-3-3 two weeks ago, and it can take a few weeks (say, 2 to 3) before teams are settled after a formation change. And especially when coupled with changes to 3 to 5 starting players, teams may not move the ball that quickly and play at their quickest tempo, until the players are settled into the new formation and new starting XI.

 

Anyway, I reckon by Friday the team will have had long enough to settle (even with Caceres replacing Retre in midfield), so the team should be able to play in top gear--with fast ball movement and high tempo like the second half against CCM--for effectively all of the game against Wellington.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Murfy1

[Melburnian]

Fuck I can't wait to have nights in the ACL.

[thisphantomfortress]

52 minutes ago, Melburnian said:

Fuck I can't wait to have nights in the ACL.

Thailand away trips hopefully 

[bt50]

How good is ACL, absolutely the pinnacle for our clubs, and with the money going into China it's only going to get more exciting 

[Nate]

3 minutes ago, bt50 said:

How good is ACL, absolutely the pinnacle for our clubs, and with the money going into China it's only going to get more exciting 

Only problem is that it's played midweek, and thus lessening the crowd figures/level of interest which is a huge shame as it's such an awesome competition to watch.

[Melburnian]

1 minute ago, Nate said:

Only problem is that it's played midweek, and thus lessening the crowd figures/level of interest which is a huge shame as it's such an awesome competition to watch.

I don't get the midweek low crowd thing, must be something I'm missing.

My club plays in the pinnacle of the sport and I'm there at home. I have a full time job and a wife and kids. But midweek, Friday night or Sunday it's about supporting the club.

When I lived in England it was this culture. Of course I think the culture of Australians, aren't used to this and it will take education to realise the importance of this competition.

[Nate]

2 minutes ago, Melburnian said:

I don't get the midweek low crowd thing, must be something I'm missing.

My club plays in the pinnacle of the sport and I'm there at home. I have a full time job and a wife and kids. But midweek, Friday night or Sunday it's about supporting the club.

When I lived in England it was this culture. Of course I think the culture of Australians, aren't used to this and it will take education to realise the importance of this competition.

I think it's largely a case of the more fair-weather supporters and general public not being fully aware of the competition's appeal, although I thought the success of hosting the AFC Asian Cup and bringing Asian football to the forefront would have rectified a lot of this so I'm perplexed as well. 

But it probably is a cultural thing and I can understand it, I mean A-League clubs are incredibly young compared to the English clubs you'd be talking about and I doubt whether the same levels of undying passion and commitment exist in comparison. It's difficult to say though without any research or statistics, it's probably something for marketers to determine because the product is 100% there.

[SF33]

Is it (partly) an issue with full members having to pay full whack for a ticket, combined with the mid-week thing?

Plus, I think beyond just being a cultural thing, with the history of the huge European clubs, I think it's the fact that most of us could turn on the ECL at this stage to any game and we'd know at least a dozen of the players on the park for both teams. You just don't get that with the Chinese, Korean and Japanese teams...I don't know any of the non-Australian/non-A League players. It's why I'd prefer to watch a random European WC qualifier than a random Asian WC qualifier, even factoring in the time difference.

Still, if City make it next year, I'd like to think that I'd get along to most (if not all) of its home matches of the ACL.

[moops]

9 hours ago, bt50 said:

How good is ACL, absolutely the pinnacle for our clubs, and with the money going into China it's only going to get more exciting 

I like watching the ACL and talking about money, I heard someone say that the prize money has been doubled or something now, a little bit of extra incentive.

[moops]

21 minutes ago, SF33 said:

Is it (partly) an issue with full members having to pay full whack for a ticket, combined with the mid-week thing?

Plus, I think beyond just being a cultural thing, with the history of the huge European clubs, I think it's the fact that most of us could turn on the ECL at this stage to any game and we'd know at least a dozen of the players on the park for both teams. You just don't get that with the Chinese, Korean and Japanese teams...I don't know any of the non-Australian/non-A League players. It's why I'd prefer to watch a random European WC qualifier than a random Asian WC qualifier, even factoring in the time difference.

Still, if City make it next year, I'd like to think that I'd get along to most (if not all) of its home matches of the ACL.

I watch a bit of Japanese football (which is on during the off season, being the biggest reason) and I try to catch some ACL games and Asian quals, you quickly learn some of the players. I quite enjoy it actually and it's not bad watching.

[japiedog]

18 hours ago, Murfy1 said:

Interesting discussion about intensity/slow movement.

 

I'd argue the main reason the team looked a bit slow in the first half was because of slow ball movement, rather than low intensity or effort. And I'd argue the ball movement not being super quick stemmed from the upheaval to the team--both with the tactics, we'd just switched back to 4-3-3 after more than a month with 3-5-2, and the players (defence with Zullo in, new midfield with Retre starting, new forward-line of Garuccio-Fornaroli-Fitzgerald). So a lot of change to the team, which makes it harder for a team to play at a really high tempo when players are still getting used to playing with each other (don't forget we also have 2 new players to the team starting in Malik [just 4 starts] and Wilkinson [just 2 apps] who would still be learning their teammates names).

Also, we were easily the best team in the first half: 6 shots, 3 on target, 4 inside the box compared with 3 shots, 1 on target, 1 inside the box. 9 times out of 10 we lead at halftime if we outshoot the Mariners like that.

 

By the second half the team was more settled, with the coaching staff also tweaking a few tactics/player positions at half time as well, and we moved the ball quicker and better and crushed the Mariners 4-0 in the second half. As the team continues to settle more I expect performances to more and more reflect our 4-0 smashing of the Mariners in the second half. 

 

Also I fully agree with the above point that we shouldn't underplay the significance of beating CCM 3 times in one season. Defensively stubborn teams, like CCM, can easily make better teams drop points, like Melbourne victory did when they dropped 2 points with a draw in a home match in Geelong against CCM earlier this season. And especially given that we have only beaten CCM 4 times in 18 games, with 3 of those wins coming this season, Melbourne City should get due positive acknowledgement for going against our playing history with CCM and getting good results (5-1, 3-1, 4-1) and 9 points out of 9.

CCM aren't the defensive stubborn team that they used to be , they had quite a lot of ball in our half , in the first 45, they didn't use it well but I reckon that they shaved us for

possession ( i don't look up spend my waking hours looking up statistic sites, this is based on playing, coaching and following the game for 40 or more years)

 

[japiedog]

13 hours ago, Murfy1 said:

The point I was making was that we played for 5 or 6 weeks in 3-5-2 before switching to 4-3-3 two weeks ago, and it can take a few weeks (say, 2 to 3) before teams are settled after a formation change. And especially when coupled with changes to 3 to 5 starting players, teams may not move the ball that quickly and play at their quickest tempo, until the players are settled into the new formation and new starting XI.

 

Anyway, I reckon by Friday the team will have had long enough to settle (even with Caceres replacing Retre in midfield), so the team should be able to play in top gear--with fast ball movement and high tempo like the second half against CCM--for effectively all of the game against Wellington.

 

 

 

I don't want to sound like I'm having a go , but FFS, the players are professional players  many who have International or national team experience, they have played the game long enough to be able to change formation, what do you think they do at training?

the player live,breathe, sleep, shit and shower football and most have probably done so since they were 8 years of age, so a change of formation or a player not playing is not going to take 2 -3 weeks to "adjust to"

 

 

[NewConvert]

19 minutes ago, japiedog said:

I don't want to sound like I'm having a go , but FFS, the players are professional players  many who have International or national team experience, they have played the game long enough to be able to change formation, what do you think they do at training?

the player live,breathe, sleep, shit and shower football and most have probably done so since they were 8 years of age, so a change of formation or a player not playing is not going to take 2 -3 weeks to "adjust to"

 

 

I see the team like professional musicians. You can have a great substitute for one night but their timing will be off. Ditto with orchestras, phiharmonics and choirs. Changing formation is like rearranging the score.

[japiedog]

49 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

I see the team like professional musicians. You can have a great substitute for one night but their timing will be off. Ditto with orchestras, phiharmonics and choirs. Changing formation is like rearranging the score.

Seriously ?

Professional Musicians are that , professional musicians

for someone to "sit in" with and Orchestra , Philharmonic , choir etc they have to be a Professional ( yes read that again Professional ) musician, probably been playing 20 years at least

they must be able to sight read the score and play it, they wouldn't get the call to do gig if they couldn't. No one is going to "rearrange the score" cos they have a different second trombonist, you think that they will "amend " the 1812 overture because they have a different percussionist that night?

sheesh I do fill in gigs where I turn up on the night not knowing anyone else in the band and am given either a chord chart or sheet music to follow , or am given verbal instructions that the tune is in Eb with a II V IV VI turnaround , and the bridge is is a simple IV V I

you find your space and role in the band/group/choir/orchestra/team   and complement the other players

Edited February 24, 2016 by japiedog

[n i k o]

Another point to add is if a team can change formation/systems midway during a game without any problems then why can't they do the same prior to a game. Especially when considering they would have been practising that system for the whole week leading up to the game. 

However in saying that I do think the part of new players coming into the team and needing time to gel and get use to each other an important factor. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by n i k o

[playmaker]

8 minutes ago, japiedog said:

Seriously ?

Professional Musicians are that , professional musicians

for someone to "sit in" with and Orchestra , Philharmonic , choir etc they have to be a Professional ( yes read that again Professional ) musician, probably been playing 20 years at least

they must be able to sight read the score and play it, they wouldn't get the call to do gig if they couldn't. No one is going to "rearrange the score" cos they have a different second trombonist, you think that they will "amend " the 1812 overture because they have a different percussionist that night?

sheesh I do fill in gigs where I turn up on the night not knowing anyone else in the band and am given either a chord char or sheet music to follow , or am given verbal instructions that the tune is in Eb with a II V IV VI turnaround , and the bridge is is a simple IV V I

you find your space and role in the band/group/choir/orchestra/team   and complement the other players

But a violin player won't be able to play a trumpet very well!

Seriously though the 3 5 2 is a very attacking system the way we play it and like any attacking system it has its weaknesses. It needs to be managed properly and it is easily exploited from a well managed and aware opposition, especially from quick counters which results from an error which usually means our wings are not defended.

 A 4 back system is always going to be more solid, balanced and forgiving that's why you tend to conceed less.

[belaguttman]

I think that its helpful not just to look at a formation change in isolation, if it happens its usually to solve a problem created by the opposition who may also change shape or movement in return.

[NewConvert]

1 hour ago, japiedog said:

Seriously ?

Professional Musicians are that , professional musicians

for someone to "sit in" with and Orchestra , Philharmonic , choir etc they have to be a Professional ( yes read that again Professional ) musician, probably been playing 20 years at least

they must be able to sight read the score and play it, they wouldn't get the call to do gig if they couldn't. No one is going to "rearrange the score" cos they have a different second trombonist, you think that they will "amend " the 1812 overture because they have a different percussionist that night?

sheesh I do fill in gigs where I turn up on the night not knowing anyone else in the band and am given either a chord chart or sheet music to follow , or am given verbal instructions that the tune is in Eb with a II V IV VI turnaround , and the bridge is is a simple IV V I

you find your space and role in the band/group/choir/orchestra/team   and complement the other players

Conductors re-arrange the tempo all the time: Pierre Boulez did it all throughout his career. Otherwise why would people collect music by different conductors? I have Beethoven's fifth by Karajan, Kleiber and Furtwangler. People can hear the difference. There are plenty of professional musicians that can step into a role but few get called up to be part of the orchestra. And they practice - a lot. This is also why orchestras have understudies for all positions so that when they are having a concert and someone calls in sick, they don't look up someone in the phone book - they have an understudy.

back in my teens when punk (British 70s) ruled - it didn't matter whether you could play or not. It kinda of worked but I suspect it was more how old I was and how pissed I was. I also spent a lot of times seeing a lot of small bands come and go, and you could tell the ones that practiced together a lot and those that did it for a lark. 

Finally, the muso that taught me the most regarding timing was Jacques Loussier and his trio. Seeing him play live really hammered the point of timing in music.

Back in football land, the club has had many players in its short history, and they were all professional players - yet somehow a title eluded those players. A well drilled team will always outperform a hastily patched team. Things like becoming accustomed to how fast your team mates are, how confident they with each foot, all of these things and more add up.

[Blackout]

Things I did not expect to see on a football forum:

- Analysis of the nuances of classical music

[Nate]

3 minutes ago, Blackout said:

Things I did not expect to see on a football forum:

- Analysis of the nuances of classical music

only on this forum

[belaguttman]

Its quite a good analogy except that a football coach is more like a choreographer and director, somewhat less active and influential during the actual performance than a conductor

[Murfy1]

The change in players was almost certainly more disruptive than the change in formation. There were obvious times where Malik had difficulty linking up with passes to Retre, and Garuccio and co., which is understandable because they've never played together before. Wilkinson and Kisnorbo ditto don't have that telepathic understanding between central defenders a team should have, because they've only played a game and a half together.-

Even the Western Sydney Wanderers only picked up 1 point over the first 3 rounds, because they had a lot of new players and it takes time for a team to settle and gel before the team can play in top gear (high speed ball movement, with players combining well) for 90 minutes.

 

The formation change was another disruptive factor, although not as important as the change in personnel IMO (but you're kidding yourself if you think a formation change isn't disruptive. The same thing happened to Melbourne City's W-League side when they suddenly switched to 3-4-3 and barely beat Newcastle 1-0 [the first time they had only scored 1 goal and only won by 1 goal, and as Montemurro said post-game they struggled]).

Again, it's not the ideas of the formation change that are difficult for players, it's about combining with teammates and learning how teammates play within the formation. For example, does Garuccio drop deep from LW to receive the ball, or does he stay out on the wing? Does he wait for the overlap, or does he attack? If he attacks, does he cut inside or does he attack on the outside? How often does he drop deep? How often does he wait for the overlap? How often does he cut inside?

So within the very broad principles of a formation, which the players would indeed know well, and would get drilled on in training, there are many different ways for players to perform their roles within the formation. And Melbourne City's new players Wilkinson, Malik and Fitzgerald would have had a lot of learning to do to learn about their teammates ways of playing, so they don't pass it short when they players go long, or pass it long when the players go short, etc.

 

Anyway I was very impressed with the 2nd half performance, and saw good balance within the team with pretty much all of the players combining well. None of that good combination play just falls into place--the team has been working towards that good football over the past 2 weeks. Anyway I'd say all the players should be familiar enough with each other by Friday when the team plays Wellington, so the team will have no excuses and should be able to produce the 2nd half against CCM over 90 minutes against Wellington.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Murfy1

[hakz7]

17 hours ago, Melburnian said:

Fuck I can't wait to have nights in the ACL.

Yeah, with a massive 4,000 fans in attendance 

[japiedog]

3 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Conductors re-arrange the tempo all the time: Pierre Boulez did it all throughout his career. Otherwise why would people collect music by different conductors? I have Beethoven's fifth by Karajan, Kleiber and Furtwangler. People can hear the difference. There are plenty of professional musicians that can step into a role but few get called up to be part of the orchestra. And they practice - a lot. This is also why orchestras have understudies for all positions so that when they are having a concert and someone calls in sick, they don't look up someone in the phone book - they have an understudy.

 

 

Conductors re-arrange the tempo all the time

yes but the written notes aren't change, we are talking about a change in tempo from perhaps 100 bpm to 110 bpm, so it's not like playing Fur Elise at the pace of the minute waltz

an orchestra musician will have one eye on the score and one on the conductor to follow any direction as to tempo changes and accents on passages

This is also why orchestras have understudies for all positions so that when they are having a concert and someone calls in sick, they don't look up someone in the phone book - they have an understudy.

my point exactly, aren't our players who came into the team understudies ? they train and play together, therefore this argument put forward that they need 2 -3 weeks to gel is bunkum

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by japiedog

[Jovan]

When are we going to start talkin techno. Bit of drum n base please.

[japiedog]

6 minutes ago, Jovan said:

When are we going to start talkin techno. Bit of drum n base please.

LOVE IT

THAT GOES TO 180 - 200  BPM

[jw1739]

How much tactical stuff do our boys do as opposed to the physicals? I would have thought that at this stage of the season they would all be pretty fit physically and would only need a light work-out between matches (as I've read is the case in Europe) and would be focussing much more on the tacticals. For example, to avoid Retre's positional blunder against Austin.

[NewConvert]

43 minutes ago, japiedog said:

my point exactly, aren't our players who came into the team understudies ? they train and play together, therefore this argument put forward that they need 2 -3 weeks to gel is bunkum

 

 

Wilkinson and Malik were not understudies. They came to the club during the January transfer window, straight into the team and both lacking match fitness.

I assume that when Chapman returns he will also lack match fitness but should slot into the side much easier than those two.

Should changing formation be a big deal? From the outside looking in, I would think not but it does appear to be so. maybe it has something to do with the fine timing of making a run or creating space as well as understand where the opposition are. Chris Judd did say that if he was watching the game he wasn't in the game.

[playmaker]

New players need game time to integrate into the style of play, the structure, and the chemistry with their new team mates. That's why you often see great players that change teams take 5 or so games to show the level of performance they were showing at their previous team on a consistent basis.

Next few weeks will hopefully demonstrate that. 

[n i k o]

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/storm_roux/status/702809754716889088

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by n i k o

[Kinnibari]

That is lovely, class from the club.