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City v. CCM, Saturday 22nd May, 7.10 p.m., AAMI Park


citymad
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Yeah he’s said something briefly before about that. Talking city gave a nod to Joyce too.

Joyce wasn’t a completely idiot, he wouldn’t have stayed in the game as long as he has otherwise. He made some positive contributions, it’s just that many of us were frustrated with a lot of the details of his work.

On that note my adult son has agreed to return for this game, after walking away from the club due to Joyceball. 

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16 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Joyce wasn’t a completely idiot, he wouldn’t have stayed in the game as long as he has otherwise.

Agree with this theory in principle, in practice i present the counterargument; Steve Kean.

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1 hour ago, Jovan said:

Sorry, but what we played under Joyce was turgid and frankly we are playing the complete opposite and its a joy to watch. 

Next thing some are going to start crediting Mr Unlucky with where we are at.

Oh yes. 
I think the only credit he is surely getting is for changing the culture? (In his brutal one dimensional way)

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2 hours ago, NewConvert said:

But was it a permanent change?

Well the culture now is a hell of a lot better than it was 4 years ago.

No guys in the squad with the body shapes of Brattan, winning tough games, winning with X. Coming from behind to win.

As to your question, I don’t think culture is ever permanent but it is very slow to change, for better or worse. 

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Jamo several times used the term "humble" to describe the present players (or quite a few of them - I can't remember his exact phraseology) and I took from that that Joyce dealt with a few players who had to be cut down to size, so to speak. The difference being that today's players realise that they are privileged to play for the club, whereas when Joyce arrived there were a few who thought that the club was privileged to have them.

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I'm finding this recent Joyce appreciation a little unwarranted. 

I'm putting our recent consistent high level performances soley down to PK and the "current" coaching team. With a huge acknowledgement to Erik and that other bloke he had.

The culture discussion is also a big nonsense, largely driven by AFL mentality, if you are fit, focussed and proffessional then ultimately that is basically a "good healthy" culture. 

My question how many players did Joyce actually influence their culture/attitude/performance that are still playing. Jamieson,Atkinson, Berenguer Griffiths Metcalfe, I would argue these blokes are pretty much all improved since he left.

So basically we will only have a good culture if we win games.

 

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2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Perhaps I'm very wide of the mark but I assumed that the ones he cut down to size were the ones who left the club? I'm surprised that you ridicule "culture." It means "the way we do things around here" and my personal experience whilst employed (not in football of course) is that it makes a huge difference to how people behave and produce in the workplace. Basically whether you're in it together or just in it for yourself.

Yes I believe Jamieson was referring to guys like Fornaroli and Kilkenny. If that’s Joyce’s legacy then so be it. I think he did what had to be done and was always going to be the villain. Couldn’t coach but instilling a team-first culture is important and it looks like he did that. And then Mombaerts laid the philosophical, technical and tactical foundations for Kisnorbo, who himself seems like a bit of a hybrid of the two men before him. 

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I'm far from a Joyce apologist, I had a number of pretty significant issues with him during his time in charge, but it is notable that almost everybody I've spoken to who works at the club or was adjacent to the club during his time in charge speaks glowingly of some of the culture changes he assisted in embedding during his time there.

The guy was clearly a 'my way or the highway' type man manager who had most of his experience taking that stance with younger players and seemingly struggled to find common ground with some of the more experienced guys in the squad. It's no coincidence that it was mostly outspoken veterans who he fell out with IMO. 

This isn't me attempting to canonize Joyce in any way, his tenure dealt a certain amount of damage to other aspects of the club, in particular fan engagement and attendances. However, from what I've heard/been told, he was pretty crucial in the beginnings of the mentality change at this club. Something which was then improved upon and potentially perfected by the Erick and Paddy duo.

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Jamo several times used the term "humble" to describe the present players (or quite a few of them - I can't remember his exact phraseology) and I took from that that Joyce dealt with a few players who had to be cut down to size, so to speak. The difference being that today's players realise that they are privileged to play for the club, whereas when Joyce arrived there were a few who thought that the club was privileged to have them.

I think this point is probably relatively close to the truth tbh. 

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I think it's probably fairly indicative (for better, or in some cases, much worse) the players that left the club under Joyce's management have often gone on to have falling out's with other managers, too.

It's possible to be a decent man manager and create culture while being a woeful tactician. 

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35 minutes ago, Tommykins said:

I think it's probably fairly indicative (for better, or in some cases, much worse) the players that left the club under Joyce's management have often gone on to have falling out's with other managers, too.

It's possible to be a decent man manager and create culture while being a woeful tactician. 

Not sure that’s true. I can’t think of one example to be honest.

Don’t get me wrong I still think he was a shit man manager, but his 1950s methods did achieve something was my sole point.

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Hang on, so he axed some egos and now is responsible for the they way the group are performing now.

Okay you speak to people who hold him high regard, yet I could guarantee they would never bring him back. 

I'll go back to my original premise, we are where we are down to Kisnorbo and Mombarets and almost nothing for Joyce, in 2 seasons he almost singlehandedly ruined the club. 

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46 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Hang on, so he axed some egos and now is responsible for the they way the group are performing now.

Okay you speak to people who hold him high regard, yet I could guarantee they would never bring him back. 

I'll go back to my original premise, we are where we are down to Kisnorbo and Mombarets and almost nothing for Joyce, in 2 seasons he almost singlehandedly ruined the club. 

Straw man science: keeping climate simple

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56 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Hang on, so he axed some egos and now is responsible for the they way the group are performing now.

Okay you speak to people who hold him high regard, yet I could guarantee they would never bring him back. 

I'll go back to my original premise, we are where we are down to Kisnorbo and Mombarets and almost nothing for Joyce, in 2 seasons he almost singlehandedly ruined the club. 

You have to dig a hole for foundations. You have to remove something to allow you to build.

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1.Tom GLOVER (gk), 2.Scott GALLOWAY, 3.Scott JAMIESON (c), 4.Nuno REIS, 5.Daniel GEORGIEVSKI, 7.Rostyn GRIFFITHS, 8.Aiden O’NEILL, 9.Jamie MACLAREN, 10.Florin BERENGUER-BOHRER, 11.Craig NOONE, 14.Naoki TSUBAKI, 16.Taras GOMULKA, 17.Stefan COLAKOVSKI, 18.Connor METCALFE, 19.Ben GARUCCIO, 20.Adrian LUNA, 22.Curtis GOOD, 23.Marco TILIO, 33.Matthew SUTTON (gk), 36.Kerrin STOKES.

In: 16.Taras GOMULKA (promoted), 36.Kerrin STOKES (promoted).

Out: Nil.
Unavailable: 13.Nathaniel ATKINSON (hamstring), 15.Andrew NABBOUT (adductor).

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3 hours ago, Shahanga said:

Not sure that’s true. I can’t think of one example to be honest.

Don’t get me wrong I still think he was a shit man manager, but his 1950s methods did achieve something was my sole point.

I think people that typically make very good man managers usually end up as assistants or youth coaches - think Duncan Ferguson, Joe Jordan, Sam Allardyce, Peter Reid, Neil Lennon. They provide excellent leadership to their team and generally players say they love playing for them, but in reality the football can be very one-dimensional, which can work when it's in vogue, but when they're required to make a change they an often really struggle.

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3 hours ago, Jovan said:

Hang on, so he axed some egos and now is responsible for the they way the group are performing now.

Okay you speak to people who hold him high regard, yet I could guarantee they would never bring him back. 

I'll go back to my original premise, we are where we are down to Kisnorbo and Mombarets and almost nothing for Joyce, in 2 seasons he almost singlehandedly ruined the club. 

I fully agree with this post. The turnover under Joyce was no different to our annual turnover. And AFAIK neither Fornarelli nor Kilkenny have had a fallout with their managers at PG.

For me the big change happened during the lockdown period when the team had to go into a bubble. Look at the posts/performance pre-bubble and post bubble. And by that stage WJ was screwing the careers of young English footballers.

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2 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

I fully agree with this post. The turnover under Joyce was no different to our annual turnover. And AFAIK neither Fornarelli nor Kilkenny have had a fallout with their managers at PG.

For me the big change happened during the lockdown period when the team had to go into a bubble. Look at the posts/performance pre-bubble and post bubble. And by that stage WJ was screwing the careers of young English footballers.

I wonder how much of it can also be attributed to the club looking after its players much better than other clubs during the pandemic. Iirc we were one of the few clubs who didn't try and reduce players salaries and continued to pay players. Surely something like that helps drive home the point that people are lucky to play fir the club.

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10 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

I fully agree with this post. The turnover under Joyce was no different to our annual turnover. And AFAIK neither Fornarelli nor Kilkenny have had a fallout with their managers at PG.

For me the big change happened during the lockdown period when the team had to go into a bubble. Look at the posts/performance pre-bubble and post bubble. And by that stage WJ was screwing the careers of young English footballers.

Hmmmm Kilkenny currently frozen out of the PG side 

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