Round 2 | The Melbourne Derby | Etihad stadium | 7:30PM Saturday 17th of October

[Tonyboozeadams]

Where are all the people that were calling mauk #yoof??

 

he has to start instead of koren 

[Jovan]

Fuck me that's annoying. I know we're going to be better in weeks but to cough up a late one like that is just painful. 

Only good thing about tonight was I was I stayed strong and didn't venture to that cesspit. 

[Tesla]

You also said Koren is good Tesla. Onya.

He is, he is too good in fact, that's the problem.

[Shahanga]

He is, he is too good in fact, that's the problem.

no the problem is he's only good if his team has the ball. He thinks it's some sort of holiday when our opponents have the ball and that is a big problem 

[Tesla]

no the problem is he's only good if his team has the ball. He thinks it's some sort of holiday when our opponents have the ball and that is a big problem 

A trequartista is not expected to contribute defensively, rather they should be looking for space for the next attack.

Now if JVS is not playing this guy as a trequartista or is relying on him to contribute defensively, that's JVS' problem.

Because that's where Koren excels, as a trequartista.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Tesla

[marn11]

A trequartista is not expected to contribute defensively, rather they should be looking for space for the next attack.

Now if JVS is not playing this guy as a trequartista or is relying on him to contribute defensively, that's JVS' problem.

Because that's where Koren excels, as a trequartista.

Nah, he is just shit.

To be fair, I've always agreed with you regarding Kuzi, Mauk and Bruno.

[KSK_47]

Tonight was really typical of this club. Mostly crap, a patch of gold, crumble when we need to stay strong.

I really hope I am wrong, but this season is feeling like the others already

 

 

[Luke]

Fuck me it's taken a lot of energy trying to convince people Tuna, Mauk, and Kuzi are good players but tonight proved it for all 3.

Triple green line thanks.

If only green lines were legal tender I'd be balling right now.

who questioned Kuzi ? I want their head on a platter 

[M13]

Fuming... and I´ve never even been to Melbourne

[Jestr]

Fuming... and I´ve never even been to Melbourne

imagine how we feel watching this garbage live. Draw would feel like we have just pinched 2 points away from victree. 

But nahhhh. No fairy tales here, Fuken awful.

[Tony999]

You watch Koren come good and destroy the league. Mark my words. Green line in advance thanks!

[Jestr]

You watch Koren come good and destroy the league. Mark my words. Green line in advance thanks!

no

[rass]

Lol some rubbish spouted on here.

Yeah, for 60 minutes it was just another etihad derby, expecting to walk away with a 3 goal loss... and the ending was oh so familiar.

...but that second half fightback was something different.  The wheels are turning. This isn't the same old crap.

Those pricks have walked away tonight more relieved than anything, because they shat themselves hard against a team with so much youth, in their own fukn backyard.

[Tony999]

JVS played the players he had available. When full squad is available, then l will comment JVS' selections and tactics.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Tony999

[Andrew Edmonds]

JVS played the players he had available. When full squad is available, then l will comment JVS' selections and tactics.

absolutely agree.

[Nate]

Lol some rubbish spouted on here.

Yeah, for 60 minutes it was just another etihad derby, expecting to walk away with a 3 goal loss... and the ending was oh so familiar.

...but that second half fightback was something different.  The wheels are turning. This isn't the same old crap.

Those pricks have walked away tonight more relieved than anything, because they shat themselves hard against a team with so much youth, in their own fukn backyard.

I would agree if we didn't have so many passengers

yes, it wasn't our full strength lineup but we're at the point where we should have sufficient depth or forget about challenging for the title since we cop injuries every season 

[Murfy1]

Agonising way to lose a derby. But as I said pre-game this would be the toughest assignment in the regular season, away to last season's champs missing just 1 of their starting players. In the first 45 minutes in particular they were a well-drilled side that relentlessly targeted our flanks, and their wingers gave our fullbacks Retre and Clisby plenty of grief (even more so as Clisby often was double-teamed by Barbarouses and Georgevski). And in the end it was one massively deflected early goal, and 2 cheap goals from counterattacks against our flanks that undid us.

 

But also as I said pre-game there were some positive surprises: 

- Showing character and sharpness completely foreign to the old Melbourne Heart days the team ripped up the script in the second half and came back to equalise with 2 class goals

- That Mooy assist for the second goal was absolutely freakish and world class. It's going to be an absolute pleasure watching possibly the A-League's best player dominate for us this season

- Bruno Fornaroli is a real striker, a natural goal-scorer. Give him a sniff and he'll hit the back of the net. Also he's very energetic and his positive attitude rubs off on teammates, like his first goal did to spark our comeback

- We'll need our best players to go all the way this season, but we've got more depth than we've ever had. Kuzmanoski showed more in this match than Dugandzic and Ramsay put together, and Mauk showed why he's an ever-present in Australian youth teams. 

- We'll only get better. Gameiro, Melling, Williams and Garuccio all played lots of minutes on Thursday and will rejoin the team very soon. Novillo is slated for an early November return, and Franjic should rejoin the team in about 5 weeks (and he's a few whole levels better than Retre at fullback). Sure, we'll never have all 23 players available, but we'll definitely have more available for most of the season, beginning next week 

 

Now for the important match, the semi-final match against Perth on Wednesday. That's a result that will truly count. And together with our first home match against CCM next Sunday the team will build on these strengths and get better, and produce better performances and better results

[Jestr]

 old crap? some people forget to quickly

22nd of January. First derby at Etihad, Allsopp and Hernadez score in first half, heart is down 2:0 

Aloisi scores twice and we DRAW the game not with 20 minutes of great football but full 45 minutes to hold on to 1 point.

how many goals we allowed those scumbags in the last 4 derbies in that shithole????

some people forget the history and are too quick to piss on it

 

[strider]

Strider's weekly "Three things I learnt this game":

1. Fornaroli is good enough to play for Barcelona

2. Koren is shit, He comes off, we score. Coincidence? I think not.

3. We're nothing without the raging testosterone-infused Novillo.

---

Bonus: Melburnians putting on a better light show at a Victory home derby, lel.

[Murfy1]

 old crap? some people forget to quickly

22nd of January. First derby at Etihad, Allsopp and Hernadez score in first half, heart is down 2:0 

Aloisi scores twice and we DRAW the game not with 20 minutes of great football but full 45 minutes to hold on to 1 point.

how many goals we allowed those scumbags in the last 4 derbies in that shithole????

some people forget the history and are too quick to piss on it

 

Agree the club has some great derby history. There's also the 2011 Christmas derby where we came from behind to win 3-2 (with victory's 2nd goal being a mere injury time consolation goal).

 

But the key difference is Melbourne City is now up against a different and superior rival. In the 2010-11 season where we drew 2-2 victory finished 5th and got bundled out of the finals in the first round by Gold Coast, and then sacked their coach Merrick. In the 2011-12 season victory finished a pathetic 8th, accruing a paltry 29 points from 27 games.

This time around victory are the reigning champs, and have kept all of their double-winning squad together bar Milligan, and are the consensus favourites to finish 1st. 

 

So given that big change of context, City now having to fight against a much slicker outfit to rule Melbourne, I think things are different. Melbourne City didn't just match it with our city rival, we fought back onto equal terms against the leading A-League contender. I agree that in terms of a derby fightback it is apart of a larger and richer history, but in terms of matching it with the leading A-League contender, being equal on goals until the 90th minute, that is a new story.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Murfy1

[rass]

 old crap? some people forget to quickly

22nd of January. First derby at Etihad, Allsopp and Hernadez score in first half, heart is down 2:0 

Aloisi scores twice and we DRAW the game not with 20 minutes of great football but full 45 minutes to hold on to 1 point.

how many goals we allowed those scumbags in the last 4 derbies in that shithole????

some people forget the history and are too quick to piss on it

 

cmon mate, don't take it down that track. Definitely not pissing on Heart history here.

It's a direct comparison between the insipid 3 goal losses at Etihad last year and the fighting spirit of tonight. We are definitely a better team than last season. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by rass

[Jestr]

Agree the club has some great derby history. There's also the 2011 Christmas derby where we came from behind to win 3-2 (with history's 2nd goal being a mere injury time consolation goal).

 

But the key difference is Melbourne City is now up against a different and superior rival. In the 2010-11 season where we drew 2-2 victory finished 5th and got bundled out of the finals in the first round by Gold Coast, and then sacked their coach Merrick. In the 2011-12 season victory finished a pathetic 8th, accruing a paltry 29 points from 27 games.

This time around victory are the reigning champs, and have kept all of their double-winning squad together bar Milligan, and are the consensus favourites to finish 1st. 

 

So given that big change of context, City now having to fight against a much slicker outfit to rule Melbourne, I think things are different. Melbourne City didn't just match it with our city rival, we fought back onto equal terms against the leading A-League contender. I agree that in terms of a derby fightback it is apart of a larger and richer history, but in terms of matching it with the leading A-League contender, being equal on goals until the 90th minute, that is a new story 

agree with you Murfy, mv is a better team on many levels.

However with resources available under the city banner, I ask how much longer should we be accepting outcomes like today.

there are lots of positives found in almost every game we lost last year. It's natural and it is healthy to look forward to better days ahead.

I think we will beat them at AAMI in December 

I am personally frustrated with the outcome today and it bloody hurts that we lost 4 out of 5 derbies to those animals

[Jestr]

cmon mate, don't take it down that track. Definitely not pissing on Heart history here.

It's a direct comparison between the insipid 3 goal losses at Etihad last year and the fighting spirit of tonight. We are definitely a better team than last season. 

Definately, last year's losses  made my blood curl.

we are a lot better than last year and when we get our injured players back we should finish top 3 this time around.

I also think that new manager would speed up our progress up the ladder..... But that is for another thread.

 

[GreenSeater]

Glad I was working tbh. That ending would have absolutely killed me. Watched the replay and here are my observations:

1) If Hughes ever plays for us I really hope he's good because Kisnorbo is shite.

2) Clisby wasn't great tonight, but thought he was better than a lot of people on here have made out. He was always going to be Victory's target tonight and I thought he did okay under the pressure. He certainly wasn't our worst.

3) Paartalu needs to sit on the pine. He's top notch on his day but I think he needs to be reminded he doesn't have a guaranteed spot in the XI.

4) I agree with Tesla that Koren is being played wrong, as he should be a trequartista and isn't being used in that role, but that being said his effort just wasn't good enough tonight, which is a shame because he was one of our best last week.

5) Aaron Mooy is way too good for the A League and probably too good for the Premier League tbh.

6) Bruno Fornaroli is a fantastic signing. Worked his arse off all night in essentially a 6 on 1 situation due to poor tactics and still scored a sensational goal. Will be a genuinely great player for us.

7) #yoof. Kuzmanovski is very very tallented, and Stefan Mauk showed tonight that he is a real star in the making. They both changed the game tonight. A midfield with Mooy, Mauk and Melling would be much better than Mooy, Koren and Paartalu.

8) Derbys at Etihad are shit.

9) JVS is shit.

10) Besart Berisha is worse than ebola.

[Bannon]

i dunno why people are standing up for the team tonight i was on level 3 and we looked shit all night we most of the possession as always but lacking in the attacking third it was lucky we got that scrappy goal then could take that momentum on to a next goal, in the end victorys 1st goal was shit never should of been one, should of had way more free kicks (who was the ref?) we got dogged by him and berisha is a cunt, we honestly gave them way way way way way way way too much space to play there game they countlessly where running towards our box and they would only tackle at the last minute.

[Bannon]

best things i witnessed tonight.

random backpacker at bevs and micks when the march left went to move a plant and split the whole thing everywhere and proceeded to get yelled at by the bar staff was amazing, then talking to a bum on bourke street for an hour and a half watching him to magic tricks, honestly i was more entertained from this homeless man then the game of sport haha.

[NewConvert]

Tend to agree with most of the above. But for me right now the big concern is Paartalau - last season he was below par. He claimed that he played for 14 months straight, his injuries from overseas were not properly treated, the team was in transition, etc. So this season he has no excuses - we have a long pre-season so his body could rest, we have the best medical facilities and practices so the injuries should be gone, there are almost no players left from Heart days (Williams being the only one left). Yet, his performance has not improved. The quality of the A-League has risen and he has been left behind. And he plays a key lynch pin role, and we have him for the rest of this season and then two more. I hope that the Jets or WSW can take him cheaply.

And also, Kisnorbo started slowly last season but then improved throughout the season. I hope he does the same this season. And at season's end, thank you very much for coming and some fine memories.

[Tesla]

Glad I was working tbh. That ending would have absolutely killed me. Watched the replay and here are my observations:

1) If Hughes ever plays for us I really hope he's good because Kisnorbo is shite.

2) Clisby wasn't great tonight, but thought he was better than a lot of people on here have made out. He was always going to be Victory's target tonight and I thought he did okay under the pressure. He certainly wasn't our worst.

3) Paartalu needs to sit on the pine. He's top notch on his day but I think he needs to be reminded he doesn't have a guaranteed spot in the XI.

4) I agree with Tesla that Koren is being played wrong, as he should be a trequartista and isn't being used in that role, but that being said his effort just wasn't good enough tonight, which is a shame because he was one of our best last week.

5) Aaron Mooy is way too good for the A League and probably too good for the Premier League tbh.

6) Bruno Fornaroli is a fantastic signing. Worked his arse off all night in essentially a 6 on 1 situation due to poor tactics and still scored a sensational goal. Will be a genuinely great player for us.

7) #yoof. Kuzmanovski is very very tallented, and Stefan Mauk showed tonight that he is a real star in the making. They both changed the game tonight. A midfield with Mooy, Mauk and Melling would be much better than Mooy, Koren and Paartalu.

8) Derbys at Etihad are shit.

9) JVS is shit.

10) Besart Berisha is worse than ebola.

1. IIRC Kisnorbo was heavily involved in our first goal, and in general I think he is a better player than people give him credit for. His biggest problem is that there are some unfair expectations of him and he also doesn't really suite the way JVS wants to play. He is a simple defender who will do what needs to be done to get between an attacker and the goal, and do so quite effectively for the most part, but expecting him to play out of defence and all that fancy stuff is not his game. His age also works against him because as soon as he doesn't have a good game the #yoof brigade is calling for his head. Seriously, one game everyone is saying how great he is, then the next how shit he is, depending more on how the game goes than Kisnorbo's ability. Man of the match next week.

2. TBH as one of the people constantly calling out Clisby's shitness, I have to agree there is a bit of a 'Hoffman effect', that even when he has a decent game people are going to bag out his performance because they are constantly expecting a fuck up whenever he is in play, and so when he does fuck up people notice and remember it, hence his performance seems worse than it is.

3. May be time to consider that Paartalu simply isn't that good a player. At Brisbane they probably just got the very best out of him, the right team, right coach, right role, and good form. He was playing 2nd tier in Scotland before he joined Brisbane, and then only lasted a year in China after playing for Brisbane and ended up signing to a team in Thailand.

5. Yes Mooy is ridiculous, I actually feel bad that we resigned him and didn't let him go to Europe. World class pass. Just sell him to Barcelona in January, not like we are going to win anything, what's the point of holding him back?

7. The pattern of most non-yoof players turning to shit under JVS while many young player breakthrough and impress happens way too much for it to be a coincidence. WTF is going on, why can he get so much out of these young players but nothing out of most the other players. Seriously JVS has to be the GOAT youth coach, send him to Man City to manage the u21s  

8, 9, 10. Confirmed.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Tesla

[hedaik]

What was our level of support like?

Seemed like it was almost non existent on TV. 

[citypool]

What was our level of support like?

Seemed like it was almost non existent on TV. 

Walking from the train station to the ground then back to the station I was outnumbered by victory supporters. We need to up the fans it was really bad for a derby. 

[Silverback]

I took a guy from work last night to his first football match in Australia. He's only been in the country for a year spending his life in Portugal supporting Porto all his life. I didn't tell him anything about the team, our players etc etc 

In his broken English on the way home he tells me - you're number 6 is slow, shit and can't hold the ball. You're number 8 is AMAZING

Thought that was ironic for someone who loves football and his view of our team

[jw1739]

Walking from the train station to the ground then back to the station I was outnumbered by victory supporters. We need to up the fans it was really bad for a derby. 

I may be old fashioned but there's no way I will take MrsJW (we're both members) and any of our friends to Docklands and find ourselves surrounded by foul-mouthed bogan Victory supporters. When we host a derby at AAMI we give Victory the whole of the northern end - a bloc of some 5,000 seats. Until City management gets off its arse and organises a reciprocal arrangement for away derbies then we'll be staying home.

[Red or Dead]

So apparently during the off-season we strengthened our backline and we strengthened our forward line yet we had the same inexperienced (bar Kisnorbo) back 4 as last season and two youth players playing on either side of Bruno in the forward line.

So basically, the only (positive) difference in this season's team to last season's is Bruno.

In ideal world this should've been Team A last night:

Sorensen

Franjic   -   Hughes   -   Kisnorbo   -   Zullo

Melling

Mooy      -      Mauk

Gameiro      -      Fornaroli      -      Novillo

Instead we got Team B:

Sorensen

Retre   -   Chapman   -   Kisnorbo   -   Clisby

Paartalu

Mooy      -      Koren

Dekker      -      Fornaroli      -      Zullo

It's unproven, but I'd say if we had Team A playing last night we'd have won.

[jw1739]

Based on the pre-season matches I went to, video and reports, I agree that we're still weak defensively. The system that van 't Schip wants to play sees our fullbacks sit high. Opposition coaches are on to this immediately, and counter this by attacking down the wings and then crossing to the back post, either for the header or the tap-in (or indeed the "own goal" which was the case last night as Khalfallah's cross was not going in until it came off Retre trying to regain his ground), and already we are conceding goals that way.

Until we play two genuine wingers and let the back-line sit a little deeper IMO we are going to ship goals on a regular basis. My powers of analysis are limited but that's the way I see it. On the positive side there's no doubt we've got a lot more grunt up front, but sadly 2-3 has the same outcome as 0-1.

It's early days but already the table has a rather familiar look about it. Putting it pretty simply, we need to win in the Cup on Wednesday, and our first two home league matches.

[NewConvert]

A trequartista is not expected to contribute defensively, rather they should be looking for space for the next attack.

Now if JVS is not playing this guy as a trequartista or is relying on him to contribute defensively, that's JVS' problem.

Because that's where Koren excels, as a trequartista.

One of the things I like about this forum is that I get to learn more about football. So I had to look the term trequartista and what they actually did. If you are right then it seems that the club should never have offered him a contract and IIRC there was some discussion as to whether he was imposed on the club by CFG or not. I noticed on my google search that the trequartista has fallen out of favour somewhat because of their lack of defensive capability. So may be not only does he not suit JVS, he may not suit any team in the A-League. I will also note that reports from last week indicated that he had a good game and he was teaming up well with Mooy. So what happened this week?

And can any team have a player that does not contribute defensively?

[belaguttman]

One of the things I like about this forum is that I get to learn more about football. So I had to look the term trequartista and what they actually did. If you are right then it seems that the club should never have offered him a contract and IIRC there was some discussion as to whether he was imposed on the club by CFG or not. I noticed on my google search that the trequartista has fallen out of favour somewhat because of their lack of defensive capability. So may be not only does he not suit JVS, he may not suit any team in the A-League. I will also note that reports from last week indicated that he had a good game and he was teaming up well with Mooy. So what happened this week?

And can any team have a player that does not contribute defensively?

The problem is that the modern game really requires flexibility in how teams play unless you are just so dominating that you can impose your style on every opponent. A trequartista works better in broken teams or in games where there is not much pressing.

[Torn Asunder]

Devastated that we didn't get something from the game in terms of points.

On reflection, however, probably the right result, and based on our performance, it should be a result that will hopefully fire up the team to improve more for the season ahead.  Revenge will come at AAMI. 

Given how rubbish we've been at Etihad in the past, given the players we know we've got coming back, given the positive signs from the youngsters in the team, given that the Tards were much closer to full strength, and given it only took 30 minutes or so of our team playing the way we know they can play to draw and nearly win the game (clear handball penalty not given when we were in the ascendancy) there is  still plenty to look forward to.

There is no doubt that the tards are fearful of what we are becoming and they know deep down that it is just a matter of time before we overtake them in every aspect of the game.

 

 

[Herman Cain]

Completely outplayed again.  Think our couple of quick goals covered that up to an extent.  Just got to hope these guys returning from injury make a huge difference or we're in trouble again.  At least we have a fair bit of quality in the squad now to somewhat make up for our shit play, although that probably just means JVS will last longer.

[GreenSeater]

1. IIRC Kisnorbo was heavily involved in our first goal, and in general I think he is a better player than people give him credit for. His biggest problem is that there are some unfair expectations of him and he also doesn't really suite the way JVS wants to play. He is a simple defender who will do what needs to be done to get between an attacker and the goal, and do so quite effectively for the most part, but expecting him to play out of defence and all that fancy stuff is not his game. His age also works against him because as soon as he doesn't have a good game the #yoof brigade is calling for his head. Seriously, one game everyone is saying how great he is, then the next how shit he is, depending more on how the game goes than Kisnorbo's ability. Man of the match next week.

2. TBH as one of the people constantly calling out Clisby's shitness, I have to agree there is a bit of a 'Hoffman effect', that even when he has a decent game people are going to bag out his performance because they are constantly expecting a fuck up whenever he is in play, and so when he does fuck up people notice and remember it, hence his performance seems worse than it is.

3. May be time to consider that Paartalu simply isn't that good a player. At Brisbane they probably just got the very best out of him, the right team, right coach, right role, and good form. He was playing 2nd tier in Scotland before he joined Brisbane, and then only lasted a year in China after playing for Brisbane and ended up signing to a team in Thailand.

5. Yes Mooy is ridiculous, I actually feel bad that we resigned him and didn't let him go to Europe. World class pass. Just sell him to Barcelona in January, not like we are going to win anything, what's the point of holding him back?

7. The pattern of most non-yoof players turning to shit under JVS while many young player breakthrough and impress happens way too much for it to be a coincidence. WTF is going on, why can he get so much out of these young players but nothing out of most the other players. Seriously JVS has to be the GOAT youth coach, send him to Man City to manage the u21s  

8, 9, 10. Confirmed.

1) Whilst I also agree that Kisnorbo is being pushed into the role of ball-playing defender which does not suit him, some of his defending has been very suspect so far in the few games we've played this season. Believe me I'm usually one of the people that you have mentioned that praises Paddy the second he plays half-decent, as I do love him as a player and have for many years. But I don't know he just seems like his age is catching up with him. Like you said his build-up for Fornaroli's goal was great, but I think my main issue at the moment with him is his inconsistency.

2) Exactly. There is a strange habit on this forum to criticise any fullback over the age of 21, but any youth fullback is seen as the messiah (ie Walker and even Mitchinson). I think people need to remember that Clisby is a young CB being played out of position after being taken from the Perth Glory reserves. Has a long way to develop yet.

3) I unfortunatly think you may be right. Which is a big problem since his contract has 4 years to run. The only thing that makes me question that though is how good he was at the start of last season. I recall eveeyone being very happy with him. I don't know what's changed with him to make him go so far backwards so quickly.

7) Anything to get him out of Melbourne!

[belaguttman]

Just watched a replay of the game.

Positives:

Stronger second half performance, we became more aggressive and proactive as the game went on

Mooy and Mauk are a good midfield combo, preferred perhaps to Mooy and Koren

I thought that Paartalu didn't have a bad game defensively although needs to think more about a forward pass.

The '4 corners' of the team last night are really the 'B team', they put in a comparatively improved performance (against a stronger visitors team) compared to last season's 'A team', a good demonstration of our depth.

Well done to the coaching staff in changing the mindset of the team at half-time, we came out much more positively and didn't drop our heads after going down 2-0.

 

Negatives:

We need to play 90 minutes of football that's proactive & aggressive, not 45 or 30 minutes.

Teams selectively press to allow Paddy to play out of defence as he does that poorly or they press him in dangerous position as they know that he will turn over the ball. This is a major vulnerability in our attacking transition. I'm keen to see what Hughes can do.

Fornaroli needs more support from a winger or a midfielder who need to change his positioning in attacking transition. I'm looking forward to seeing him with Gamiero.

Koren continues his pattern of going AWOL in important games.

Our full-backs press high up the field leaving us vulnerable to counter-attack, a calculated risk but we need a plan and personnel to cover this

We need to be more aggressive on the field.

 

I think that this week will either make our whole season easier or harder. We need to lift against Perth, typically a place where we have performed badly. I feel positive about the season especially of we win against Perth and CCM. The CCM game will have a great influence on our home attendances for the season. Hopefully we'll get back some important players for the next 2 games.

The visitors are a stable team that has been improved this season. We have a new team, still far from top strength. I'll be disappointed if they win another game against us this season and there's potentially 4 of them to come.

Edited October 18, 2015 by belaguttman