Squad signing has been horrible

[moops]

It's been pretty terrible for the past 4-5 years, is it Petrillo? Without Mombearts we have been pretty middling.

Look at our ex city players or players on loan, they are killing it atm, whilst we are close to being out of the finals.

There's something wrong when Najjarine is goat, when he was a bit sub par for us, I'm thinking it's our coaching.

There is something wrong with what we want in players, DNA in football manager has become a thing lately, but it's a good example of where we are falling short, or prioritising things that are wrong.

What do you think?

[kingofhearts]

Yep it sucks

/Thread

[NewConvert]

In another thread people have raised the issue of playing the City way. Which may not suit the quality of our players and I don't believe that it suits a lot of players in the EPL either but that is what creates a competition.

I think that our locals have been good but we have bombed most of the time with the visa players. Disappointing performances or injury prone.

But since coming over from the AFL, my biggest surprise was how much of an impact the coaching staff have and this is where it falls over.

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, NewConvert said:

In another thread people have raised the issue of playing the City way. Which may not suit the quality of our players and I don't believe that it suits a lot of players in the EPL either but that is what creates a competition.

I think that our locals have been good but we have bombed most of the time with the visa players. Disappointing performances or injury prone.

But since coming over from the AFL, my biggest surprise was how much of an impact the coaching staff have and this is where it falls over.

IMO you have identified what the problem really is. It is trying to make the players play in a way that they are simply not equipped to do. We keep changing the squad and the coaching staff (plural) but we never reach the objective that we're trying to reach. The players that we sign are perfectly adequate for the league, because when they move on in many cases they go on to show it. Remember such sayings such as "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and "You can't fit a square peg into a round hole?" The "City Way", even if we are ultimately able to play that way, isn't much chop anyway, if after 7 seasons there has been just the one trophy. I have come to the conclusion that we are wasting our time and effort.

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

IMO you have identified what the problem really is. It is trying to make the players play in a way that they are simply not equipped to do. We keep changing the squad and the coaching staff (plural) but we never reach the objective that we're trying to reach. The players that we sign are perfectly adequate for the league, because when they move on in many cases they go on to show it. Remember such sayings such as "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and "You can't fit a square peg into a round hole?" The "City Way", even if we are ultimately able to play that way, isn't much chop anyway, if after 7 seasons there has been just the one trophy. I have come to the conclusion that we are wasting our time and effort.

Don’t you think we should be allowed to be a more critical on the players as individuals and the ones responsible for recruiting them? I see some many simple things go wrong from shots to easy controllable balls passes over 10m - that’s all the system?

I don’t agree that the bulk of our visa and marquee players over the years are suitable for our ambitions but yes if you want to be a sub top team then they are fine.

In current form, Jmac will bang them in under 4-4-2 and Berenguer will turn into Castro suddenly, Noone will get passed his man? Fundamentally we just have it wrong in the recruitment department.
 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Mr MO

[jw1739]

8 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Don’t you think we should be allowed to be a more critical on the players as individuals and the ones responsible for recruiting them? I see some many simple things go wrong from shots to easy controllable balls passes over 10m - that’s all the system?

I don’t agree that the bulk of our visa and marquee players over the years are suitable for our ambitions but yes if you want to be a sub top team then they are fine.

In current form, Jmac will bang them in under 4-4-2 and Berenguer will turn into Castro suddenly, Noone will get passed his man? Fundamentally we just have it wrong in the recruitment department.
 

Some recruiting has been OK though - interestingly the squad looked pretty good in the Joyce era. Best visa probably Bart (IIRC recommended by JvS), others of note for me de Laet, Jakobsen, Shayon Harrison was a nice pick-up, McCormack and so on. Delbridge even. IMO overall we have had the players at our disposal, but not this season.

[NewConvert]

3 hours ago, Mr MO said:

Don’t you think we should be allowed to be a more critical on the players as individuals and the ones responsible for recruiting them? I see some many simple things go wrong from shots to easy controllable balls passes over 10m - that’s all the system?

I don’t agree that the bulk of our visa and marquee players over the years are suitable for our ambitions but yes if you want to be a sub top team then they are fine.

In current form, Jmac will bang them in under 4-4-2 and Berenguer will turn into Castro suddenly, Noone will get passed his man? Fundamentally we just have it wrong in the recruitment department.
 

Well training comes in under the purview of the coach and his staff. And we have a long pre-season. It is worth noting that last season when the team went into a training bubble with Mombaerts they came out a different side purely because the passes were better. Team confidence is also under the purview of the coaching team so when people say that the coach has lost the team it also means that the players have lost confidence in themselves.

Whenever you have a tight knit team, if a team member does not fit in they get purged. So under Joyce we purged a lot for no result. The problem was Joyce. And now the evidence is mounting that it is PK.

Is it the system? well there are three approaches: devise a system for the players that you have, devise a system and recruit to that system or a hybrid of the two. To me it feels like we are aiming for the second one and have been unable to recruit accordingly. This would explain why some ex heart/city players do well elsewhere (see Sydney FC). CCM under Stacij have developed well for the first approach. In reality we should be aiming for the third one - the hybrid approach. Recognise that we are not likely to get the players for the City way so accept that it will be tweaked to work with the players that the club has. And for this you need a thinking manager, not one who just ticks boxes.

However you are right - the recruiting is not all under the coaches control and the recruiters need to be put under the microscope.

[Mr MO]

On 13/02/2021 at 3:02 PM, NewConvert said:

Well training comes in under the purview of the coach and his staff. And we have a long pre-season. It is worth noting that last season when the team went into a training bubble with Mombaerts they came out a different side purely because the passes were better. Team confidence is also under the purview of the coaching team so when people say that the coach has lost the team it also means that the players have lost confidence in themselves.

Whenever you have a tight knit team, if a team member does not fit in they get purged. So under Joyce we purged a lot for no result. The problem was Joyce. And now the evidence is mounting that it is PK.

Is it the system? well there are three approaches: devise a system for the players that you have, devise a system and recruit to that system or a hybrid of the two. To me it feels like we are aiming for the second one and have been unable to recruit accordingly. This would explain why some ex heart/city players do well elsewhere (see Sydney FC). CCM under Stacij have developed well for the first approach. In reality we should be aiming for the third one - the hybrid approach. Recognise that we are not likely to get the players for the City way so accept that it will be tweaked to work with the players that the club has. And for this you need a thinking manager, not one who just ticks boxes.

However you are right - the recruiting is not all under the coaches control and the recruiters need to be put under the microscope.

I always have the expectation that visa and marquees are the players we should be able to rely on during a form crisis, players who take the team by the hand. In our case it's debatable almost that these key players are creating our current low on form. 

I fully agree about the system topic you've raised.

I know we talk alot about specific younger players leaving us for other clubs and suddenly seem to perform. Well there is perhaps one thing we might overlook here, Genrau is the best example. Dennis Genrau plays in a midfield with 2 performing Visa players in Benat and Puyo - he can focus on his game and develop from there. 

What I'm trying to say is; if we have this core of group of key players sorted who can week in and week out carry the team, our youngster will thrive. This will also give a coach more confidence in giving young players more game time. Something we barely do because we are always hanging in there for results and scraping out the perfomances. This is where we go really wrong in my mind, the fundamentals are not there to develop youth in our first team.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Mr MO

[Dylan]

Id love to know how Sydney has largely kept the same squad and somehow managed to keep it under a reduced cap.

[jw1739]

26 minutes ago, Dylan said:

Id love to know how Sydney has largely kept the same squad and somehow managed to keep it under a reduced cap.

Generally in a workplace people will stay when they are happy, feel that they're listened to, valued, and have a future there. Pay isn't always the most important parameter.

I suspect it's plain old man management.

[HeartFc]

Fuck my dyslexia is hitting overdrive. I read the title as "Squid Signing has been horrible."

[haz]

9 hours ago, HeartFc said:

Fuck my dyslexia is hitting overdrive. I read the title as "Squid Signing has been horrible."

If there was a squid disguised as a player, I'd put my money on Berenguer.

[Jovan]

I really wanted to post a reflective peice based basically on how our opinions are fundamentally based on results. Not sure if this is an appropriate thread but CBF finding or starting one.

Anyway going back to to dark times 4 or 5 weeks ago we had terrible recruitment that was completed months too early  and a bunny coach that was being forced to play a paticular way all orchestrated recruiting bloke that was the entire reason we were in such a terrible position.  

Suddenly or more accurately 4 comprehensive wins and we are now the model team and looking at taking the league by storm.

Obviously both statements aren't and weren't entirely true but at the time very compelling arguments. 

And based generally on results, now I'm not going to claim to be some level minded analytical critic but sometimes we need to ease up with hyperbole and look at things as they are, not how they should be or even how we want them to be. 

 

[moops]

13 minutes ago, Jovan said:

I really wanted to post a reflective peice based basically on how our opinions are fundamentally based on results. Not sure if this is an appropriate thread but CBF finding or starting one.

Anyway going back to to dark times 4 or 5 weeks ago we had terrible recruitment that was completed months too early  and a bunny coach that was being forced to play a paticular way all orchestrated recruiting bloke that was the entire reason we were in such a terrible position.  

Suddenly or more accurately 4 comprehensive wins and we are now the model team and looking at taking the league by storm.

Obviously both statements aren't and weren't entirely true but at the time very compelling arguments. 

And based generally on results, now I'm not going to claim to be some level minded analytical critic but sometimes we need to ease up with hyperbole and look at things as they are, not how they should be or even how we want them to be. 

 

You are quite right, but I am still pissed we got rid of Pierias, maybe there was more behind the woodshed? Maybe the intent was to have inside wide backs and he couldn't adapt?

Still not happy with berenguer, is he better than Garneau?

No doubt I made this post because we started badly and our loanees and ex players were doing well.

I had doubts over Kisnorbo, but he has also showen he is alright. It's been the best football I have seen us play ever. Even with Mooy and Fornaroli, Paddy has proven me wrong.

 

 

 

[Harrison]

Look it’s still pretty early in his reign to be definitively making calls. Before the season I was happy with our squad and thought it capable of pushing for silverware. The dip in form during January and February was very concerning, mostly because Kisnorbo looked like he didn’t know how to get us out of the rut and was inflexible. The big mitigating factor was injuries, and I always thought that with our best XI playing consistently, we’d be a much better team. 

Thankfully that’s what’s happened. Is he a good coach? Maybe, maybe not. He has inherited a team that was good enough to take Sydney to 120 minutes and although we lost Brillante and Windbichler, we gained Reis and Nabbout (both of whom took a while to get fit, in fairness). Time will tell if he’s any good. Expectations are high. 

As for Petrillo, this one is tricky. He doesn’t fill me with confidence but he did put this team together, so credit where credit is due. Given our resources though, is it good enough? Should we be building a squad that’s always able to compete? We don’t know the constraints he’s working in but if we can’t win anything with this squad then the next iteration might need to be built by someone else. With four of the foreign group out of contract in June, we could be looking at a different squad next season so it might be the right time. 

[CityBoyz]

11 hours ago, Harrison said:

Look it’s still pretty early in his reign to be definitively making calls. Before the season I was happy with our squad and thought it capable of pushing for silverware. The dip in form during January and February was very concerning, mostly because Kisnorbo looked like he didn’t know how to get us out of the rut and was inflexible. The big mitigating factor was injuries, and I always thought that with our best XI playing consistently, we’d be a much better team. 

Thankfully that’s what’s happened. Is he a good coach? Maybe, maybe not. He has inherited a team that was good enough to take Sydney to 120 minutes and although we lost Brillante and Windbichler, we gained Reis and Nabbout (both of whom took a while to get fit, in fairness). Time will tell if he’s any good. Expectations are high. 

As for Petrillo, this one is tricky. He doesn’t fill me with confidence but he did put this team together, so credit where credit is due. Given our resources though, is it good enough? Should we be building a squad that’s always able to compete? We don’t know the constraints he’s working in but if we can’t win anything with this squad then the next iteration might need to be built by someone else. With four of the foreign group out of contract in June, we could be looking at a different squad next season so it might be the right time. 

It’s not just Petrillo he leads it but he leads a recruitment teams with about 3 other recruiters at CFA Melbourne who help him with he just oversees it, they report to him. 

He has built 16/17,17/18,18/19, 19/20 and 20/21 squads 

[jw1739]

The key players coming out of contract at the end of 20/21 are:

Jamieson;
Berenguer;
Noone;
Luna;
Tsubaki (loan);
Nabbout.

I would think that we would make every effort to keep Luna and Nabbout, and possibly give another season to Jamieson, Berenguer and Noone - especially Noone. Berenguer and Jamo are both enigmatic players - they cop quite a bit of criticism but they do know the way the club is trying to approach the game and the style of play.

[CityBoyz]

5 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

The key players coming out of contract at the end of 20/21 are:

Jamieson;
Berenguer;
Noone;
Luna;
Tsubaki (loan);
Nabbout.

I would think that we would make every effort to keep Luna and Nabbout, and possibly give another season to Jamieson, Berenguer and Noone - especially Noone. Berenguer and Jamo are both enigmatic players - they cop quite a bit of criticism but they do know the way the club is trying to approach the game and the style of play.

Jamo is going nowhere can categorically say that.

Luna, Nabbout and Noone I would want to keep. Tsubaki nope as a visa and Florin is having a good season and when he’s on he’s up there with the best. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by CityBoyz

[Heart of oakleigh]

Dont know where to put this but my understanding is that if we make finals its unlikely that Maclaren & Nabbout will be able to participate due to likely national team committments if selected. The socceroos will be in a hub in Kuwait which clashes with a-league finals. Add mandatory hotel quarantine and its unlikely they can participate in finals. Can someone research this and please correct me if im wrong. I would love to be totally wrong about this scenario.

[Imtellingyou]

No way.

[HeartFc]

Should've got Adrian back to the A-league before he went on loan again in China. Still looks sharp.

 

Green Line BTW.

Mierzejewski was very handy for the NT a few years back and could've done a lot better than Turkey when he left Poland. Clearly went for the cash coz he went on to collect plenty arab cash. Very handy signing and I'll go as far as saying he'll be top 3 in the JW medal this upcoming season.

[jw1739]

Shall I lock and hide this thread...?

[NewConvert]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

Shall I lock and hide this thread...?

Pin it. Let it sit here in its infamous glory to the crap we spout