Australia Day

[jw1739]

I find this annual debate over Australia Day to be very tedious. Can there not be some form of forum set up so that we can agree on an Australia Day where we (those of us who wish to) can celebrate where we are today as a nation? I have no particular day of the year in mind. Why must people such as Scott Morrison and indigenous leaders keep looking back to the past? The past has gone, what is done is done, and we cannot change what happened. I think it would be hard to find any country that does not have plenty of skeletons in its closet. Celebrate what we are today, and then go forward along the path to being a better nation for us all into the future.

[kingofhearts]

Just move the day problem solved

[NewConvert]

To me its like celebrating when the sperm enters the egg not when the baby popped out. And besides it is when Sydney was founded.

[jw1739]

37 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

To me its like celebrating when the sperm enters the egg not when the baby popped out. And besides it is when Sydney was founded.

Interesting point. Does Sydney precede New South Wales, which was formally proclaimed as a colony on 7th February 1788?

[belaguttman]

In the 40,000+ year history of continuous civilisation on this continent, is the best dat we can come up with is a day when a convict fleet arrived in Port Jackson and planted a Union flag?

[HeartFc]

If you move the date they'll get bored after 2 years and start saying it shouldn't be called Australia Day. 

[bt50]

Get rid of the date, make it the last Friday in January. Problem solved.

Won't satisfy the activist types, they'll just find something else to get offended about but at least it will kill the fucking annoying story we have to go through each year.

[Shahanga]

Oh please. Change this and the lefties will just find something else to bitch about. Fuck em.

[belaguttman]

The First Fleet actually arrived on January 18th. 26th is the date that a British flag was planted and a penal colony founded. Why are we celebrating the planing of another nation's flag and the establishment of a prison colony? It was a NSW only holiday until it became national in 1994 so it's only recent and has no real national significance beyond being a de facto end-of-summer-holiday long weekend

How does this date this represent our nation? What is it about our story that we want a national day to represent? 

[jw1739]

12 hours ago, belaguttman said:

In the 40,000+ year history of continuous civilisation on this continent, is the best dat we can come up with is a day when a convict fleet arrived in Port Jackson and planted a Union flag?

Civilisation?

[belaguttman]

42 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Oh please. Change this and the lefties will just find something else to bitch about. Fuck em.

It's the same reason that we shouldn't pick Labour Day as our national day, it's too divisive as the Righties would be bitchin'. Let's pick a day that we call all celebrate

[belaguttman]

1 minute ago, jw1739 said:

Civilisation?

civilisation = an organised community structure with enduring stories around which life is organised and that ensures continuity from generation to generation. It becomes a way of organising life. Stoneage cultures had a different civilisation than medieval than modern, but they are all civilisations

[bt50]

13 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

The First Fleet actually arrived on January 18th. 26th is the date that a British flag was planted and a penal colony founded. Why are we celebrating the planing of another nation's flag and the establishment of a prison colony? It was a NSW only holiday until it became national in 1994 so it's only recent and has no real national significance beyond being a de facto end-of-summer-holiday long weekend

How does this date this represent our nation? What is it about our story that we want a national day to represent? 

Tbf i dont think anyone is actually celebrating that. The resistance is far more about the activists telling us thats what we're doing when it isn't, and subsequently digging the heels in so they don't win.

I've no issue with changing the date, i actually dont think anyone gives a flying fuck about the date; they just like where it sits on the calendar and the tradition of a bbq in summer, exacerbated by the issue of not being bullied by activists.

Edited January 24, 2021 by bt50

[Shahanga]

41 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

It's the same reason that we shouldn't pick Labour Day as our national day, it's too divisive as the Righties would be bitchin'. Let's pick a day that we call all celebrate

Not really.

1.labour date is an international date, so it’s not specific to Australia.

2. It’s already celebrated, no one complains.

[jw1739]

35 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Tbf i dont think anyone is actually celebrating that. The resistance is far more about the activists telling us thats what we're doing when it isn't, and subsequently digging the heels in so they don't win.

I've no issue with changing the date, i actually dont think anyone gives a flying fuck about the date; they just like where it sits on the calendar and the tradition of a bbq in summer, exacerbated by the issue of not being bullied by activists.

I suspect that you are probably right about this. Probably if you carried out a survey there would be confusion between Cook and the Endeavour and Phillip and the First Fleet. It's like asking the question "Who was the first Prime Minister of Australia?" (Edmund Barton so you don't waste time looking it up.)

I think the whole point about changing the date is that for the growing number of Australians the arrival of the First Fleet at Sydney Cove is irrelevant because, like me, they are latter-day immigrants with no connections back to those who arrived then, balanced against those who do claim that connection connection and the indigenous perspective that it was an invasion. I suspect that the latter perspective would not change whatever date was chosen.

Edited January 25, 2021 by jw1739

[belaguttman]

38 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Tbf i dont think anyone is actually celebrating that. The resistance is far more about the activists telling us thats what we're doing when it isn't, and subsequently digging the heels in so they don't win.

I've no issue with changing the date, i actually dont think anyone gives a flying fuck about the date; they just like where it sits on the calendar and the tradition of a bbq in summer, exacerbated by the issue of not being bullied by activists.

No, I think that what they are saying is that this is a day that a significant proportion of the citizens feel that they can't celebrate, let's pick a day where we can all celebrate

[belaguttman]

13 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Not really.

1.labour date is an international date, so it’s not specific to Australia.

2. It’s already celebrated, no one complains.

the 38 hour week started in Australia, it's one of Australia's great 'exports' to the world. It isn't a day to pick to unite all Australians though any more that the Orange Marches in Northern Ireland should be picked as a day to unite that community.

Let's pick a day that's relevant to the whole country like Federation Day, or just pick a date that is neutral that we call celebrate together. Alternatively, let's recognise the dispossession and introduce a more solemn element into Jan 26th that recognises that our modern nation was built on dispossession of the First Nations. Partly, it's an issue of a lack of recognition.

Edited January 25, 2021 by belaguttman

[NewConvert]

8 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

I suspect that you are probably right about this. Probably if you carried out a survey there would be confusion between Cook and the Endeavour and Phillip and the First Fleet. It's like asking the question "Who was the first Prime Minister of Australia?" (Edmund Barton so you don't waste time looking it up.)

I think the whole point about changing the date is that for the growing number of Australians the arrival of the First Fleet at Sydney Cove is irrelevant because, like me, they are latter-day immigrants with no connections back to those who arrived then, balanced against those who do claim that connection connection and the indigenous perspective that it was an invasion. I suspect that the latter perspective would not change whatever date was chosen.

When I was in primary school the date was irrelevant. WA took the day off but no official celebrations (they celebrated the establishment of the Swan River settlement) and over here the celebrations were so muted you could drive through whole swathes of Melbourne or Victoria and nothing would be happening. Definitely no fireworks or public shows. The reason? it was NSW event.

It all started in the 80s so if its within my lifetime then there is no tradition attached.

[jw1739]

9 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

the 38 hour week started in Australia, it's one of Australia's great 'exports' to the world. It isn't a day to pick to unite all Australians though any more that the Orange Marches in Northern Ireland should be picked as a day to unite that community.

Let's pick a day that's relevant to the whole country like Federation Day, or just pick a date that is neutral that we call celebrate together. Alternatively, let's recognise the dispossession and introduce a more solemn element into Jan 26th that recognises that our modern nation was built on dispossession of the First Nations. Partly, it's an issue of a lack of recognition.

I would suggest that Federation Day might be even more offensive to indigenous Australians as "Aboriginal natives" were "not to be included in the reckoning of numbers of people in the Commonwealth" (S. 127 of the original Constitution).

[bt50]

36 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

No, I think that what they are saying is that this is a day that a significant proportion of the citizens feel that they can't celebrate, let's pick a day where we can all celebrate

Which is fine, i agree with that. But i do regularly hear the line that we are celebrating the birth of the colony which i totally disagree with, and in my experience there isnt anyone i know that is celebrating that.

[The Aardvark]

There should definitely be an  Australian Day as such, but the date is problematic for a fair portion of Australians. I am completely in the camp that is happy with it being the last Monday/Friday of Jan (Or maybe the first Monday/Friday of Feb so we don't get it randomly falling on the 26th every now and then). No one actually gives a shit about keeping it as is, they just like being dicks to people that don't like it. 

[belaguttman]

4 hours ago, NewConvert said:

It all started in the 80s so if its within my lifetime then there is no tradition attached.

1994

[belaguttman]

3 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I would suggest that Federation Day might be even more offensive to indigenous Australians as "Aboriginal natives" were "not to be included in the reckoning of numbers of people in the Commonwealth" (S. 127 of the original Constitution).

It's just about being clear about what we are actually celebrating, we can celebrate the Federation of 6 colonies into 1 nation without denying 40,000 years of history. Penal colony establishment day has little to do with the founding of modern Australia, and denies the prior occupation and ownership of the land by original inhabitants. Governor Phillip rewarding convicts with grants of land that he didn't own relies on terra nulls for it's legitimacy.

As modern Australians we  aren't to blame for that and nobody is seriously asking for the land to be returned, but as modern Australians, it's a central part of our story that needs to be acknowledged and dealt with. Keep 26th Jan as invasion day and make it a solemn day that acknowledges what happened, without blame. Pick another day to celebrate who we are as a nation

[kingofhearts]

I think the only fair outcome is that we give each race/ethnicity/orientation/ice cream flavour preference their own day.

For example we keep the 26th of January as a sacred day and name it 'Anglo Australian day". The 27th could be "aboriginal Australia Day". Then we could have an "ethnic Australian day" followed quickly by "Asian Australian day"and so on. Its the only fair way I can see in making sure that we celebrate the impact that all of these different races have had on making Australia the country it is today.

 

 

[belaguttman]

34 minutes ago, kingofhearts said:

I think the only fair outcome is that we give each race/ethnicity/orientation/ice cream flavour preference their own day.

For example we keep the 26th of January as a sacred day and name it 'Anglo Australian day". The 27th could be "aboriginal Australia Day". Then we could have an "ethnic Australian day" followed quickly by "Asian Australian day"and so on. Its the only fair way I can see in making sure that we celebrate the impact that all of these different races have had on making Australia the country it is today.

 

 

That would be a good way of showing the diversity of Australia, what a shame there aren't 365 nations😀

It would be good to find one day that we can all celebrate together

[mus-28]

5 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

I think the only fair outcome is that we give each race/ethnicity/orientation/ice cream flavour preference their own day.

For example we keep the 26th of January as a sacred day and name it 'Anglo Australian day". The 27th could be "aboriginal Australia Day". Then we could have an "ethnic Australian day" followed quickly by "Asian Australian day"and so on. Its the only fair way I can see in making sure that we celebrate the impact that all of these different races have had on making Australia the country it is today.

 

 

I notice you deliberately left out gender neutral vegan cyclists. Bigot

[jw1739]

17 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

I think the only fair outcome is that we give each race/ethnicity/orientation/ice cream flavour preference their own day.

For example we keep the 26th of January as a sacred day and name it 'Anglo Australian day". The 27th could be "aboriginal Australia Day". Then we could have an "ethnic Australian day" followed quickly by "Asian Australian day"and so on. Its the only fair way I can see in making sure that we celebrate the impact that all of these different races have had on making Australia the country it is today.

A neat summary of the fundamental underlying issue. Whilst we continue to identify ourselves as some particular ice cream flavour, that is focus on our differences, we will never see the things that we all have in common.

[belaguttman]

28 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

A neat summary of the fundamental underlying issue. Whilst we continue to identify ourselves as some particular ice cream flavour, that is focus on our differences, we will never see the things that we all have in common.

The whole thing about Australia is that we can all be different ice cream flavours whilst at the same time combining into something extra special, it isn't a choice between one or the other. A core part of that is empathy and respect for differences. January 26th is a day of happiness and pride for some Australians but a day of shame and genocide for others, why not respect that and go back to the original date that Australia Day was celebrated on which was July 30th. The date we pick is somewhat arbitrary, it's up to us, there are many dates that aren't divisive

[jw1739]

6 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

The whole thing about Australia is that we can all be different ice cream flavours whilst at the same time combining into something extra special, it isn't a choice between one or the other. A core part of that is empathy and respect for differences. January 26th is a day of happiness and pride for some Australians but a day of shame and genocide for others, why not respect that and go back to the original date that Australia Day was celebrated on which was July 30th. The date we pick is somewhat arbitrary, it's up to us, there are many dates that aren't divisive

Quite so. I would just change your last sentence to read "...there are many dates that need not be divisive."

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

Quite so. I would just change your last sentence to read "...there are many dates that need not be divisive."

I'm happy with that

[Shahanga]

2 hours ago, belaguttman said:

The whole thing about Australia is that we can all be different ice cream flavours whilst at the same time combining into something extra special, it isn't a choice between one or the other. A core part of that is empathy and respect for differences. January 26th is a day of happiness and pride for some Australians but a day of shame and genocide for others, why not respect that and go back to the original date that Australia Day was celebrated on which was July 30th. The date we pick is somewhat arbitrary, it's up to us, there are many dates that aren't divisive

When was 30 July Australia Day?

(genuinely curious)

(I know some people say oh it’s only been the 26/01 since the 90s, but they are being disingenuous, it’s been that date for much longer, it’s just that “as the land of the long weekend” Australia Day public holiday was always the Monday closest to the 26th, your reference to 30/07 is the first time I’ve come across that date)

[jw1739]

26 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

When was 30 July Australia Day?

(genuinely curious)

(I know some people say oh it’s only been the 26/01 since the 90s, but they are being disingenuous, it’s been that date for much longer, it’s just that “as the land of the long weekend” Australia Day public holiday was always the Monday closest to the 26th, your reference to 30/07 is the first time I’ve come across that date)

@Shahanga From Wikipedia

The first Australia Day was established in response to Australia's involvement in World War One. In 1915, the mother of four servicemen thought up the idea of a national day, with the specific aim of raising funds for wounded soldiers, and the term was coined to stir up patriotic feelings. In 1915 a committee to celebrate Australia Day was formed, and the date chosen was 30 July,on which many fund-raising efforts were run to support the war effort. It was also held in July in subsequent years of World War I: on 28 July 1916, 27 July 1917, and 26 July 1918.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Day

As I see it, the main problem with 26th January is that it is divisive, all the more so in recent years when it has been (conveniently and paradoxically) been hijacked by the very groups that oppose it.

My solution is to let each state have a "foundation day" if they wish to, and move Australia Day to 30th July which was actually the original date, and also to clearly change and articulate what our national day is - a day in which we celebrate our unity and what we are as a nation - and that means all of us - and what we aspire to be into the future, and that is not a day where we look over our shoulders all the time at the past and who we were or have been, because if we do that we will walk into the first brick wall in our path which is what happens every fucking time this subject gets discussed.

Edited January 26, 2021 by jw1739

[belaguttman]

Peter Hartcher in the Age frames the issue very well

Quote

Australia, as Noel Pearson has put it, has an ancient heritage, a British inheritance and a multicultural achievement. The challenge of our time is to bring Australia’s three parts together as a unique whole. We can choose to make each other our worst enemies. Or we can make each other our greatest allies.