The JvS thread

[jw1739]

Quite frankly, I question even Duff. He looks good in our team, but that's because the rest are so bloody poor. Players such as Ibini and Mabil leave him for dead.

 

Mooy is in the national squad, so I would say he would be a first-team player elsewhere. And I would say Mauk and Melling would also warrant contracts elsewhere.

 

The rest? Marginal or no way.

[KSK_47]

 

The one thing that has me perplexed is the statement "its about finding someone who can take us to eventually become the best team in Asia". The word 'eventually' can be an awful long time, maybe even JVS time. Perhaps you can better quantify how long a coach has before you give him the flick.

 

 

 

Obviously it would depend on the progress shown under the managers time at the club and you would also need to take into account their previous performances too, but I think 2 and a half seasons to show some signs of being able to cut it at the top is enough for an imported manager.

[rass]

Quite frankly, I question even Duff. He looks good in our team, but that's because the rest are so bloody poor. Players such as Ibini and Mabil leave him for dead.

 

Mooy is in the national squad, so I would say he would be a first-team player elsewhere. And I would say Mauk and Melling would also warrant contracts elsewhere.

 

The rest? Marginal or no way.

 

Mabil is a cracker. From what I have seen of Sydney games this year though, I actually think Ibini has regressed a little. He looked great with his speed in those CCM counter attacks, but not sure if he is the best fit at Sydney. This may change in time but not convinced by him yet.

 

Anyway, who cares about those blokes...

 

I get what you're saying though, it's a worry when you break down our team to its individual parts.

[cadete]

 

 

 

I don't know how any of the critics can ignore the players as a main, if not the main, problem. 

 

Had it just been this season I may possibly agree with you- but its not. Every squad he has managed has shown the same characteristics and has pretty much the same win/loss ratio- so what the common denominator here? He is. His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. Yes, we have a gaps in particular positions, but whose fault is that? His- its his squad.

Completely agree KSK. What's being forgotten here is that JvS has been back in charge since the end of December 2013. Yes some players were already on contracts that extended into the current season, but all the others are either re-signings or new signings under JvS.

 

In this his second tenure JvS has been in charge for 20 league matches and one FFA Cup match, for 7 wins, 6 draws and 8 defeats. A win % of 33.33%.

 

If you look at http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=mgr&show=msm to see the performance of A-League managers overall (A-League matches only), you'll see that this is marginally better than his overall performance (30.38%).

 

The comparisons with other contemporary A-League managers are startling. Only newcomer Phil Stubbins has a poorer record, and he's hardly on the scoreboard with just six matches overall.

 

Quite simply, unless there is a phenomenal turn-around, JvS will not take us to silverware.

 

Interesting to see how some coaches who are treated on this forum as complete hacks in that of Merrick, Farina and Kosima leave JVS for dead on this table.

[Jestr]

Yes they leave JVS for dead as far as history goes.

One must remember a league was a different beast when those guys were flying high.

[KSK_47]

Yes they leave JVS for dead as far as history goes.

One must remember a league was a different beast when those guys were flying high.

 

At least they flew

[KSK_47]

What the hell am I doing?! I know how to turn him into a great manager.

 

How do I feel about JVS?

 

[cadete]

Yes they leave JVS for dead as far as history goes.

One must remember a league was a different beast when those guys were flying high.

And George Best usually played with a hard crappy waterlogged ball... but he was still the bloody best.

[Jovan]

I have prepared myself for some criticism.

JVS WON'T be sacked this season. Regardless of what the opinion is on here. He won't be judged by CFG management on his previous stints nor our last seasons performance. Soley he be judged on what happens this season. Weather thats right or not doesn't matter.

After every gamei hope they will review everyone's performance and by seasons end they will make a decision to continue with JVS or not. My gut feel is that if the team reaches 25 points or better and are playing a reasonable style hes safe. Anything less then his position will be under threat.

To say that that's accepting mediocacy is irrelevant what matters is how CFG view things.

For me I want to see more improvement on individual level first then the collective. More like what we've seen from Mooy, Paartalu (last week), Melling, Duganzic and to lesser degrees Redmayne Weilart Marino. It's going to be a long season and thb painful. Hopefully its not another wasted period were in 18 months were back at rebuilding.

Ever optimistic but never confident.

[HEARTinator]

 

 

 

 

I don't know how any of the critics can ignore the players as a main, if not the main, problem. 

 

Had it just been this season I may possibly agree with you- but its not. Every squad he has managed has shown the same characteristics and has pretty much the same win/loss ratio- so what the common denominator here? He is. His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. Yes, we have a gaps in particular positions, but whose fault is that? His- its his squad.

Completely agree KSK. What's being forgotten here is that JvS has been back in charge since the end of December 2013. Yes some players were already on contracts that extended into the current season, but all the others are either re-signings or new signings under JvS.

 

In this his second tenure JvS has been in charge for 20 league matches and one FFA Cup match, for 7 wins, 6 draws and 8 defeats. A win % of 33.33%.

 

If you look at http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=mgr&show=msm to see the performance of A-League managers overall (A-League matches only), you'll see that this is marginally better than his overall performance (30.38%).

 

The comparisons with other contemporary A-League managers are startling. Only newcomer Phil Stubbins has a poorer record, and he's hardly on the scoreboard with just six matches overall.

 

Quite simply, unless there is a phenomenal turn-around, JvS will not take us to silverware.

 

Interesting to see how some coaches who are treated on this forum as complete hacks in that of Merrick, Farina and Kosima leave JVS for dead on this table.

 

 

I actually don't regard Merrick as a hack. In fact quite the opposite. He took the Tards to silverware on multiple times and is fashioning something pretty handy with the Nux who must be on a tight budget. I'd call him astute and canny.

[jw1739]

I have prepared myself for some criticism.

JVS WON'T be sacked this season. Regardless of what the opinion is on here. He won't be judged by CFG management on his previous stints nor our last seasons performance. Soley he be judged on what happens this season. Weather thats right or not doesn't matter.

After every gamei hope they will review everyone's performance and by seasons end they will make a decision to continue with JVS or not. My gut feel is that if the team reaches 25 points or better and are playing a reasonable style hes safe. Anything less then his position will be under threat.

To say that that's accepting mediocacy is irrelevant what matters is how CFG view things.

For me I want to see more improvement on individual level first then the collective. More like what we've seen from Mooy, Paartalu (last week), Melling, Duganzic and to lesser degrees Redmayne Weilart Marino. It's going to be a long season and thb painful. Hopefully its not another wasted period were in 18 months were back at rebuilding.

Ever optimistic but never confident.

25 points? Are you serious? You're effectively saying that if we come last his position is safe - that simply does not make sense.

Season 2010-11 last two positions were 23 and 19 points, and the team that came last was disbanded.

Season 2011-12 last two positions were 25 and 21 points, and again the team that finished last was disbanded

Season 2012-13 last two positions both on 27 points

Season 2013-14 last two positions 28 and 26 points

[cadete]

 

I have prepared myself for some criticism.

JVS WON'T be sacked this season. Regardless of what the opinion is on here. He won't be judged by CFG management on his previous stints nor our last seasons performance. Soley he be judged on what happens this season. Weather thats right or not doesn't matter.

After every gamei hope they will review everyone's performance and by seasons end they will make a decision to continue with JVS or not. My gut feel is that if the team reaches 25 points or better and are playing a reasonable style hes safe. Anything less then his position will be under threat.

To say that that's accepting mediocacy is irrelevant what matters is how CFG view things.

For me I want to see more improvement on individual level first then the collective. More like what we've seen from Mooy, Paartalu (last week), Melling, Duganzic and to lesser degrees Redmayne Weilart Marino. It's going to be a long season and thb painful. Hopefully its not another wasted period were in 18 months were back at rebuilding.

Ever optimistic but never confident.

25 points? Are you serious? You're effectively saying that if we come last his position is safe - that simply does not make sense.

Season 2010-11 last two positions were 23 and 19 points, and the team that came last was disbanded.

Season 2011-12 last two positions were 25 and 21 points, and again the team that finished last was disbanded

Season 2012-13 last two positions both on 27 points

Season 2013-14 last two positions 28 and 26 points

 

LOL - He's still probably right....

 

We will finish last and they will keep on JVS and kents will be writing essays in 40 years time how on its Mini Mass's and Hoffman Jnr's fault why we are throwing away games and not the Dutch Mastermind.

Edited November 18, 2014 by cadete

[Jovan]

Yep that's exactly what im saying. Doesn't matter squat whether it's right or not. JVS will not be sacked this season.

[Kiro Kompiro]

if JVS loses the players he will be sacked.

 

Its always the way.  The shitness of the players is never put to scrutiny.  The shitness of the coach always is.

 

With is its a combination of both.  But it was with Aloisi as well.

[markn]

I feel embarrassed for players like Duff and co - who joined our club with such promise but has only 5 points from a possible 18.

 

Duff deserves better than this in his final year of football.

 

Have we even won a second half? Even against Brisbane we could only draw the second half.

[SF33]

Yep that's exactly what im saying. Doesn't matter squat whether it's right or not. JVS will not be sacked this season.

 

You may well be correct, but I'm not sure how anyone could know one way or the other at this stage, partly because all the pieces are in place for us to have a much stronger second half of the season than the first half (which could affect JVS's job prospects either way, depending on how you look at it) and because we don't really have much to go on regarding how impatient they will be - especially with a team that is consistently at the foot of the table (if that is where we remain). After an indifferent first season under the new owners (with the purchase going through on the eve of that season, rather than 6+ months earlier, as it did in our case), Manchester City made a pretty steady climb from mid-table to perennial Champions League qualification status. Would they take the salary cap constraints into account, when deciding on the fate of the manager? Who knows?

[tommac]

Quite frankly, I question even Duff. He looks good in our team, but that's because the rest are so bloody poor. Players such as Ibini and Mabil leave him for dead.

 

Mooy is in the national squad, so I would say he would be a first-team player elsewhere. And I would say Mauk and Melling would also warrant contracts elsewhere.

 

The rest? Marginal or no way.

You are having a laff my friend.. Duff has been great this year. Mabil is getting there, but Ibini better than Duff? noooo way

[Tesla]

I don't think CFG are going to fuck about. I'd put my money on JVS going before the end of the season if things don't improve.

[Melburnian]

I don't think CFG are going to fuck about. I'd put my money on JVS going before the end of the season if things don't improve.

I was a JVS fan. Even last season, I thought he did something that not many could do and put respectability back in the club after our run of wins and the massive derby win last season.

I question a lot of things he and the others at our club are doing and I hope you are right and the blokes now in charge are ruthless in Persuit of success. That's all I want.

Their decision to go into this project half arsed, for example, keeping the people like Munn and JD who have proven inability to forge a successful unit, plus this colour bullshit where everyone knows we are heading to sky blue but this charade is worse.

I'd rather them be what they say and ruthlessly make this a success.

I have my doubts they take this "project" that seriously.

[Jestr]

I don't think CFG are going to fuck about. I'd put my money on JVS going before the end of the season AS things will not improve.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Jestr

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

I don't think CFG are going to fuck about. I'd put my money on JVS going before the end of the season if things don't improve.

I was a JVS fan. Even last season, I thought he did something that not many could do and put respectability back in the club after our run of wins and the massive derby win last season.

I question a lot of things he and the others at our club are doing and I hope you are right and the blokes now in charge are ruthless in Persuit of success. That's all I want.

Their decision to go into this project half arsed, for example, keeping the people like Munn and JD who have proven inability to forge a successful unit, plus this colour bullshit where everyone knows we are heading to sky blue but this charade is worse.

I'd rather them be what they say and ruthlessly make this a success.

I have my doubts they take this "project" that seriously.

 

 

 

This is common practice in corporate take overs.  The theory being that its best to have people "on the inside".

 

Its also wrong.  Seen it time and time again.  When  organisations fail, its nearly always due to the leadership.

 

If these guys were any good, THEY would be doing the taking over.

[japiedog]

I'm not one to swear easily but FFS, I've just watched his press conference following the debacle against CCM

 

Could this bloke get fired up at all???

I was half  expecting a finishing quote of Ce la Vie , with a shrug of the shoulders

 

it's like he just checked his bank account and has seen that his pay has come in, so it doesn't matter what the result was

[n i k o]

In saying that though they did mention they would watch listen and learn, and perhaps that is also relevant to those behind the club here in Melbourne. And there's probably a good chance they have given all at the club a chance to prove themselves before making the big calls.

[Cinnamon]

I'm not one to swear easily but FFS, I've just watched his press conference following the debacle against CCM

 

Could this bloke get fired up at all???

I was half  expecting a finishing quote of Ce la Vie , with a shrug of the shoulders

 

it's like he just checked his bank account and has seen that his pay has come in, so it doesn't matter what the result was

He did some sign board rearranging when that 2nd goal went in, and I was expecting some fire in the presser after seeing that but he must have had a dose of the chronic post match. 

[NewConvert]

There are three  A-League players that have continually baffled me with the praise they get: Ibini, Mustafa Amini and Mitch Nicholls. Every time I have gone to see a game specifically with the intent of watching them I have come away disappointed. I don't see what others appear to see. So far Ibini has been picked up by a Chinese club and then released; Mitch Nicholls went over to Japan with Arnie but is now back here on loan; and Amini is somewhere in Germany.

Ibini will be a slightly better than average A-league player. A Kristian Sarkies that somehow made it.

[Melburnian]

Amini shows promise. I've seen a few games where he has stamped himself on.

The other two I totally agree.

[KSK_47]

I'm not one to swear easily but FFS, I've just watched his press conference following the debacle against CCM

 

Could this bloke get fired up at all???

I was half  expecting a finishing quote of Ce la Vie , with a shrug of the shoulders

 

it's like he just checked his bank account and has seen that his pay has come in, so it doesn't matter what the result was

Maybe he is trying the indifferent trick too. Although he seems to have been doing it for quite some time and not had the desired outcome

[Tonyboozeadams]

I don't know how any of the critics can ignore the players as a main, if not the main, problem.

Had it just been this season I may possibly agree with you- but its not. Every squad he has managed has shown the same characteristics and has pretty much the same win/loss ratio- so what the common denominator here? He is. His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. Yes, we have a gaps in particular positions, but whose fault is that? His- its his squad. Completely agree KSK. What's being forgotten here is that JvS has been back in charge since the end of December 2013. Yes some players were already on contracts that extended into the current season, but all the others are either re-signings or new signings under JvS.

In this his second tenure JvS has been in charge for 20 league matches and one FFA Cup match, for 7 wins, 6 draws and 8 defeats. A win % of 33.33%.

If you look at http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=mgr&show=msm to see the performance of A-League managers overall (A-League matches only), you'll see that this is marginally better than his overall performance (30.38%).

The comparisons with other contemporary A-League managers are startling. Only newcomer Phil Stubbins has a poorer record, and he's hardly on the scoreboard with just six matches overall.

Quite simply, unless there is a phenomenal turn-around, JvS will not take us to silverware.

Interesting to see how some coaches who are treated on this forum as complete hacks in that of Merrick, Farina and Kosima leave JVS for dead on this table.

I actually don't regard Merrick as a hack. In fact quite the opposite. He took the Tards to silverware on multiple times and is fashioning something pretty handy with the Nux who must be on a tight budget. I'd call him astute and canny.

Agree with this

[Tonyboozeadams]

There are three A-League players that have continually baffled me with the praise they get: Ibini, Mustafa Amini and Mitch Nicholls. Every time I have gone to see a game specifically with the intent of watching them I have come away disappointed. I don't see what others appear to see. So far Ibini has been picked up by a Chinese club and then released; Mitch Nicholls went over to Japan with Arnie but is now back here on loan; and Amini is somewhere in Germany.

Ibini will be a slightly better than average A-league player. A Kristian Sarkies that somehow made it.

Nichols was class at roar. Amini was too at ccm and well Ibini is a bit shit.

Is Amini at Dortmund?

[Murfy1]

 

 

I don't know how any of the critics can ignore the players as a main, if not the main, problem. 

 

Had it just been this season I may possibly agree with you- but its not. Every squad he has managed has shown the same characteristics and has pretty much the same win/loss ratio- so what the common denominator here? He is. His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. Yes, we have a gaps in particular positions, but whose fault is that? His- its his squad.

 

Its not about instant gratification its about finding someone who can take us to eventually become the best team in Asia. He has had ample opportunity to show what he is made of and unless something drastic changes very soon I cant see it being him. I would love to be wrong here. I would love to see him become successful but nothing seems to be changing.

 

I dont know what it is you see in him Murf. Maybe you made a bet with some dodgy gangsters and if he doesnt win silverware they will break your thumbs or perhaps you are just ridiculously stubborn  and made your decision to stick by him quite some time ago so now you are just digging in your heels and finding any amount of excuses you can to deflect his responsibilities (and if that is the case i really respect it because i am just as stubborn on my opinions), but if you think he is anywhere near good enough to coach an A-League team to become the best team in Asia, I would love to hear your thoughts as to why.

 

 

 

I just hate single cause explanations. The team isn't first? then the coach must then be shit. Bring in a good coach, and the team, no matter how many shit players it has, will win the league. This naive perspective that fixates on one factor does my head in.

 

His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. 

 

Completely disagree with this. I've disputed and refuted this enough times to go over it again, but the squad has serious weaknesses, mainly the back 4 and the keeper. And whilst the lack of a real striker/no 9 isn't a problem now, because enough players are chipping in with goals, the team would be much better if it had a proper no 9 (and not even a Berisha. A Bruce Djite would bring serious improvement).

As I've said before, the whole salary capped squad couldn't be overhauled in 1 season. If we strengthened the GK and/or the back 4, then the club almost certainly wouldn't have been able to strengthen in midfield and on the wings, and we'd be complaining that we lack midfielders who can play the killer pass (like Mooy) and we don't have tricky wingers that can put dangerous balls in the box (like Duff). There was always going to be trade-offs, because we couldn't strengthen every weakness of 2013-14's season, so some weaknesses like the back 4/5 was always inevitable, although I'm rather disappointed myself that we couldn't get a LB (although it should be remembered that the Man City scouts didn't know what to scout for, quality wise, until the team went over to Manchester, so there was maybe some time constraints as well). 

 

 

I may be stubborn or firm in my opinion, but I am no more so that the few agitators that are calling for the coach to be sacked. And nearly all of this vocal lot have an axe to grind, and didn't want JVS appointed in the first place and have wanted him sacked ever since. That is stubborn and unyielding dogmatism. 

 

I'm not 100% sure of JVS' coaching potential, and whether he can be 'the best coach in Asia' (lets seriously judge the team though. Over the short-term, i.e. this season and next, the team should mainly focus on becoming the best in Australia, because we were far far from that last season). But I think he's good enough to be successful in the A-League, like Mike Mulvey, who is not a great coach, has been successful in the A-League. A coach doesn't need to be Jose Mourinho to win silverware, and I believe some people need to realise that. I think Melbourne City supporters fixate on the coach because we have had a coach single-handedly hurt and weaken the team and the whole club. But that is the exception, not the norm, and it needs to be realised that the coach alone doesn't completely explain a club's successes or failures.

 

And to those trying to argue the case for the coach to be sacked, 2 questioned should be answered:

 

- Name players from last season or before who were better under Aloisi. Are there any? JVS has improved a lot of players, like Dugandzic, Williams, Ramsay, Kisnorbo, etc. And I'd say those players have just about improved as much as they can, and if these players have been not up to standard under 2 coaches, Aloisi and JVS, then maybe players like Hoffman, Ramsay, Wielaert and co. are just shit, and it must be acknowledged that no coach could turn these players into world beaters, as some pretend.

 

- Where should the team be now, 6 rounds into the club's first season post take-over? Despite the massive on the pitch failures of the team last season, the team is already 6th, and I'd say there's better arguments for the team to climb up the ladder from here, rather than slip down it. So where should the team be at now, and how, or how much, can the coach be faulted?

 

 

I'm pretty certain I won't change the opinions of the stubborn agitators that have been arguing for JVS to go since he was appointed, so I probably won't say much more on the matter after this. But the above is why it would be unfair to argue for the coach to be sacked at this point. 

[KSK_47]

On terms of the squad the few good players we have are far better than the handful of good players at other clubs IMO and like I say the rest are of HAL standard. Replace them and you will just get players of similar quality.

As for players improving under him compared to JA possibly all players have a bit that's not really difficult. I agree I don't think you can blame it all on him but I believe he is still a huge part of the problem.

Where should the team be? Top 3.

I have family staying with me at the moment so I don't have time to go on about this again plus I have already been over it. You are correct, you certainly won't change my mind about him. The only person who can do that is him. So far, as I predicted watching us play in preseason we are playing JVS signature brand of football. Good in parts but shit where it counts

Edited November 18, 2014 by KSK_47

[SF33]

On terms of the squad the few good players we have are far better than the handful of good players at other clubs IMO and like I say the rest are of HAL standard. Replace them and you will just get players of similar quality.

 

 

Agreed. I think it's a bit simplistic to say that only one or two of our players would get a start in the top teams and the rest would be lucky to be on the bench. I'm sure, in many cases that could only be judged on a week-to-week basis. I know from my perspective, I certainly don't have the detailed knowledge of the mid-range players from most opposition teams to be making that judgment, but I'm sure in all teams you'd find players from about #5-15 in the pecking order that are plagued by the same sort of inconsistency that we see from the likes of Williams and Dugandzic. It's just that we naturally dissect the errors that our players make and quickly forget those of the similar players in other teams. He routinely drives me insane when he goes missing for weeks at a time, but if Dugandzic was playing for the best team in the league, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him thrive in that environment and be a vital cog in that team.

 

I think our central defenders cop a bit of undeserved heat on here as well. Can't really remember Wielaert doing a lot wrong so far this year and I thought he was excellent on Sunday: put his body on the line time and again. Not sure why he and/or Kisnorbo couldn't/wouldn't be starting for most teams in the league. Paartalu obviously has the CV to suggest that he'd be a walk-up in most starting XIs.

[jw1739]

Murf, as always on these things there is going to be a spectrum of opinion. "Stubborn and unyielding dogmatism" and with an "axe to grind" are labels that you have put on the position that I, for one, happen to hold on this particular issue. You don't resile from your position, and I don't resile from mine - mine just happens to be based on the statistics of this coach's performance over his entire A-League/FFA Cup career.

[Embee]

Players in our squad that I think would start at most other teams: Kisnorbo, Partaalu, Duff, Mooy and if you can count him at all, Miller. 

 

We probably have a few others that might get into some teams depending on the quality they have in their position (Mate, Williams, Weilart) but we've got 4-5 guys who would walk into most squads in my opinion.

 

Yes, our team has some glaring weaknesses, and I didn't expect us to go anywhere near winning the league this season as a result, but what concerns me and has me disbelieving JVS' ability to take this team to where it needs to be is the manner in which we've found ourselves in our current predicament, rather than the predicament itself. Dominating games, in particular the first half, and fading away has seemingly become a trademark of JVS tenure(s) at the club, not to mention ponderous possession football with little end product to show for it. The players need to take a degree of responsibility for their fade-outs and inability to hold onto leads or capitalize on their chances but managers need to take their fair share of the blame for such shortfalls too, if we're struggling in end game scenarios then we should be focusing on training for these situations, drilling the players in how to respond when finding themselves up 2-1 with 10 minutes to go or 2-1 up with halftime only a few minutes away. If the players need to be micro-managed then the coaching staff should address that.

 

If JVS was showing some tactical flexibility and a willingness to adapt our style and choice of personnel to fit in better with the abilities of our squad and our opponents then I might be more forgiving, but he just seems to continually persevere with the same approach and players, a clear sign of a coach feeling the pressure as far as I'm concerned.

 

That being said, whether right or wrong, I'm also of the opinion that the CFG will likely wait this season out and evaluate their position on JVS at that point. If we make the finals I think JVS will likely survive any sort of review they have.

[perthheart]

Think it will be purely down to if we make finals this season as with the squad we have that is probably what the expectation should be. We wont go any further than that. Whether or not we will do that is another question all together. There is three mini groups developing in the league in my opinion. Top end being Adelaide, Victory, Glory, Sydney middle table being Wellington, Wanderers, Brisbane and City and bottom being CCM and Newcastle. Looking at it that way we may struggle for finals, you have two managers capable of getting the most out of average squads in Merrick and Popovic and last seasons title holders who may have turned a corner after smashing the Jets last week although I still think they will struggle for enough goals unless Henrique has a blinder of a season. 

 

Wanderers will probably pick up enough points to make it in just because Popovic is so good at getting results with average players, seriously how the fuck did that squad win the ACL? So leaves us in a three way race with Wellington and Brisbane really. Think you could flip a coin between us and the other two. 

 

I expect the season to end up;

 

Adelaide

Victory

Sydney

Glory

Wanderers

Brisbane

 

City

Wellington

Mariners

Newcastle

 

If that's the case I think JVS will be gone. The outliers is we have Koren and Kennedy to come in which could secure us enough points to help us leap frog into the finals. Could well be the deciding factor at the end of the season.

[Kiro Kompiro]

Murfy wrote:

 

"I may be stubborn or firm in my opinion, but I am no more so that the few agitators that are calling for the coach to be sacked. And nearly all of this vocal lot have an axe to grind, and didn't want JVS appointed in the first place and have wanted him sacked ever since. That is stubborn and unyielding dogmatism"

 

I did not want JVS appointed simply because he failed to do what others have done in this league with even less resources and even worse players. That actually extends to the Munn and Dudilica. all are responsible for setting up the culture of the club

 

Plus I do not believe you get a different outcome by repeating the past.  

 

So yeah I have and do want him gone, simply beacsue he's not good enough/

[NewConvert]

I note that I originally raised the issue of how many players would be selected in the current top four teams: AU, PG, MV, SFC. And I concluded that only Duff would make it into those teams. Mooy would probably make into two.

Some people have taken to mean that City's players would make into any A-League team. Given the current state of Newcastle I dare say that they would take quite a few, but that is not the point. The point is whether the quality of the City's list would mean that they would be top four material, and I think not.

I think that there is validity in the criticism that the team fades both physically and mentally. That has been a problem since the inception of Heart. Why do the players lack stamina to last the 90+ minutes I do not know, more importantly I expect that to be fixed over a pre-season. Mentally switching off is a more nuanced issue and you would hope that is within the realm of the coach to fix but not always. Some successful coaches fix this problem by releasing the player - something which is difficult to do in this league.

[SF33]

I note that I originally raised the issue of how many players would be selected in the current top four teams: AU, PG, MV, SFC. And I concluded that only Duff would make it into those teams. Mooy would probably make into two.

Some people have taken to mean that City's players would make into any A-League team. Given the current state of Newcastle I dare say that they would take quite a few, but that is not the point. The point is whether the quality of the City's list would mean that they would be top four material, and I think not.

I think that there is validity in the criticism that the team fades both physically and mentally. That has been a problem since the inception of Heart. Why do the players lack stamina to last the 90+ minutes I do not know, more importantly I expect that to be fixed over a pre-season. Mentally switching off is a more nuanced issue and you would hope that is within the realm of the coach to fix but not always. Some successful coaches fix this problem by releasing the player - something which is difficult to do in this league.

 

With regards to the bolded, I think the counter-argument to that is that in this sport one or two weak links can cripple a team to a greater extent than almost any other team sport, because one mistake can cost you a game. We have seen that pretty conclusively with our stopgap fullback solutions. And the other side to that is that a decent player at this standard can be made to look even better with a quality starting lineup around him. Would players like Kisnorbo, Wielaert, Dugandzic...heck, maybe even Williams and Redmayne look good in a team that hasn't lost a game since the season started? I daresay they would. So it's a bit of a chicken/egg argument. The weaknesses that have been exposed in this squad so far have been problems that had been raised regularly here in the preseason. For all the team's mediocre performances to date, I honestly can't think of too many players that have really let me down specifically, with regards to what we could realistically expect from them leading in to the season (besides injured players). Maybe Paartalu, perhaps Dugandzic and that's about it (and it looks like they're both coming good as well). In general, to quote Denny Green 'They are who we thought they were.'

 

I think it's easy to have this sort of discussion with the benefit of hindsight, but players don't lose their ability overnight. So where did people think we could be deficient, leading in to this season? My guess is the two full back positions, goalkeeper, maybe striker if we were taking the long-term view and that's it. Wingers are good, midfielders are good, central defenders are good. And I think generally, the players in those positions can compete with anything else in the league.

[belaguttman]

Yes, football is a weakest link game and so the team is only as good as the weakest link, or in our case, links. Imagine Bayern Munich or Real Madrid with Hoff and Ramsay as fullbacks and Redmayne in goal, they would not be the top of the Bundesliga or La Liga! Its also clear that improving the weakest link offers more to the team than adding a star, and we have seen that with the brief loan of David Villa. That's why I'm not expecting much from the team until the weak links have been replaced.

Edited November 19, 2014 by belaguttman

[Attack11]

 

 

 

I don't know how any of the critics can ignore the players as a main, if not the main, problem. 

 

Had it just been this season I may possibly agree with you- but its not. Every squad he has managed has shown the same characteristics and has pretty much the same win/loss ratio- so what the common denominator here? He is. His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. Yes, we have a gaps in particular positions, but whose fault is that? His- its his squad.

 

Its not about instant gratification its about finding someone who can take us to eventually become the best team in Asia. He has had ample opportunity to show what he is made of and unless something drastic changes very soon I cant see it being him. I would love to be wrong here. I would love to see him become successful but nothing seems to be changing.

 

I dont know what it is you see in him Murf. Maybe you made a bet with some dodgy gangsters and if he doesnt win silverware they will break your thumbs or perhaps you are just ridiculously stubborn  and made your decision to stick by him quite some time ago so now you are just digging in your heels and finding any amount of excuses you can to deflect his responsibilities (and if that is the case i really respect it because i am just as stubborn on my opinions), but if you think he is anywhere near good enough to coach an A-League team to become the best team in Asia, I would love to hear your thoughts as to why.

 

 

 

I just hate single cause explanations. The team isn't first? then the coach must then be shit. Bring in a good coach, and the team, no matter how many shit players it has, will win the league. This naive perspective that fixates on one factor does my head in.

 

His squad this season consists of good players who are far better than anyone elses in the league and the rest are of A-League standard. 

 

Completely disagree with this. I've disputed and refuted this enough times to go over it again, but the squad has serious weaknesses, mainly the back 4 and the keeper. And whilst the lack of a real striker/no 9 isn't a problem now, because enough players are chipping in with goals, the team would be much better if it had a proper no 9 (and not even a Berisha. A Bruce Djite would bring serious improvement).

As I've said before, the whole salary capped squad couldn't be overhauled in 1 season. If we strengthened the GK and/or the back 4, then the club almost certainly wouldn't have been able to strengthen in midfield and on the wings, and we'd be complaining that we lack midfielders who can play the killer pass (like Mooy) and we don't have tricky wingers that can put dangerous balls in the box (like Duff). There was always going to be trade-offs, because we couldn't strengthen every weakness of 2013-14's season, so some weaknesses like the back 4/5 was always inevitable, although I'm rather disappointed myself that we couldn't get a LB (although it should be remembered that the Man City scouts didn't know what to scout for, quality wise, until the team went over to Manchester, so there was maybe some time constraints as well). 

 

 

I may be stubborn or firm in my opinion, but I am no more so that the few agitators that are calling for the coach to be sacked. And nearly all of this vocal lot have an axe to grind, and didn't want JVS appointed in the first place and have wanted him sacked ever since. That is stubborn and unyielding dogmatism. 

 

I'm not 100% sure of JVS' coaching potential, and whether he can be 'the best coach in Asia' (lets seriously judge the team though. Over the short-term, i.e. this season and next, the team should mainly focus on becoming the best in Australia, because we were far far from that last season). But I think he's good enough to be successful in the A-League, like Mike Mulvey, who is not a great coach, has been successful in the A-League. A coach doesn't need to be Jose Mourinho to win silverware, and I believe some people need to realise that. I think Melbourne City supporters fixate on the coach because we have had a coach single-handedly hurt and weaken the team and the whole club. But that is the exception, not the norm, and it needs to be realised that the coach alone doesn't completely explain a club's successes or failures.

 

And to those trying to argue the case for the coach to be sacked, 2 questioned should be answered:

 

- Name players from last season or before who were better under Aloisi. Are there any? JVS has improved a lot of players, like Dugandzic, Williams, Ramsay, Kisnorbo, etc. And I'd say those players have just about improved as much as they can, and if these players have been not up to standard under 2 coaches, Aloisi and JVS, then maybe players like Hoffman, Ramsay, Wielaert and co. are just shit, and it must be acknowledged that no coach could turn these players into world beaters, as some pretend.

 

- Where should the team be now, 6 rounds into the club's first season post take-over? Despite the massive on the pitch failures of the team last season, the team is already 6th, and I'd say there's better arguments for the team to climb up the ladder from here, rather than slip down it. So where should the team be at now, and how, or how much, can the coach be faulted?

 

 

I'm pretty certain I won't change the opinions of the stubborn agitators that have been arguing for JVS to go since he was appointed, so I probably won't say much more on the matter after this. But the above is why it would be unfair to argue for the coach to be sacked at this point. 

 

You bring up some good point in your comments however you seem to be only considering what is currently happening this season. You cant forget that JVS was our first coach and much of how the football department is run comes from his direct influence. if you look at our football performance from day 1 until now, including JA little stint ... not much has changed, we are still inconsistent, we still have a shaky defense, and we still lack a ruthlessness in our play. This has been clearly evident in all of our performances.

 

The biggest problem we now have is our club culture, I agree that players are responsible for the performance and the missed chances are not the coaches fault (directly) but indirectly it is because whilst players can go through spells of poor form its up to the manager to minimize these spells and tough decisions need to be made. when these decision are not made the players become comfortable. For example against the CCM i think we all agree that Wilo cost us the 3 points when he missed that 1 v 1 which would of put the result 3-0 game over. So what will JVS do about that? How will JVS get a reaction from Wilo to send the message that its not acceptable to consistently miss chances that will cost the team 3pts. We play Syd FC on Saturday Wilo will start and play at least 70 min, my question is "Do you think that's acceptable"??? Wilo will continue to play with a smile on his face regardless if he scores, misses, plays 10 min or sits on the bench. JVS has full control and its up to him to get a reaction from the players. which he does't do..

 

This notion that we have shit players is a mute comments because we have the example of WSW who have used recycled players and won the ACL.

 

I don't believe JVS will get the sack this season for 2 reasons. If they sack him now after round 7 it will set a precedence that our new owners are not patient and we will struggle to get any coach wanting to come to our club. 2nd at the moment the ladder doesn't look so bad, who would have predicted that Roar would lose its first 4 games, WSW to only have 1pt in Rd5 and the Jets are just rubbish. If we win this week we go to 9 points 3 point off Sydney FC...

 

I don't think JVS is the coach to lead us to success and i have said that time and time again, I just hope that our new owners have a plan for a better coaching department.