The JvS thread

[SHERLOCK]

This guy needs to go.

[belaguttman]

What if the final straw is a loss to Brisbane!

It had better not be, I'll be at that game

I get what you are saying, but I disagree. I think you have to look at the bigger picture.

If the problem of individual players not showing guts, etc is consistently happening with every team he is in charge of, then that suggests that he is the root of the problem. He constantly says he wants to build a winning mentality and that he wants to bring in experienced, winning players to create that culture yet it always inevitably goes back to the same outcome. The winning mentality has to come from the alpha of the pack which is him. If every team he coaches has the same "non-winning" mentality, even after a high turn over in personnel then he needs to take the blame

The winning mentality has to come from everyone, JVS needs to lead but so do the senior players, its not either/or

[KSK_47]

The winning mentality has to come from everyone, JVS needs to lead but so do the senior players, its not either/or

True, but the effort of the ones lower down on the chain will come to nothing if not matched and exceeded by the one at the top. The fact that this happens to every team he manages says all you need to know

Edited November 2, 2015 by KSK_47

[SF33]

I get what you are saying, but I disagree. I think you have to look at the bigger picture.

If the problem of individual players not showing guts, etc is consistently happening with every team he is in charge of, then that suggests that he is the root of the problem. He constantly says he wants to build a winning mentality and that he wants to bring in experienced, winning players to create that culture yet it always inevitably goes back to the same outcome. The winning mentality has to come from the alpha of the pack which is him. If every team he coaches has the same "non-winning" mentality, even after a high turn over in personnel then he needs to take the blame

I think you both make good points. The criticism of JVS for Friday night should not mean that the gutless performances of nearly everyone that wore the shirt is excused. However, a few of our rejects are looking pretty competent at the moment with different clubs. Players should be able to take pride in their own efforts when they are professionals, but if the coach continually fails to motivate them, if they continue to be downhill skiers who fold like ironing boards at the first sign of trouble, well it's got to be considered a failure of the coach.

[Torn Asunder]

Its JVS's job to hold these players to account, but he doesn't seem to be able to do it in such a way as to get results.  

It seems the players do not fear him, or respect him, or become inspired by him.

Look at Paartalu, yes he needed to be dropped, but frozen out, without even a chance off the bench?  

JVS said something like  - "Eric's had his chance, now its another players turn..."

Then the rumour is that Eric wants to go to China again? .. is this approach showing leadership or unsettling?

Instead of dropping him to the bench and saying something like, "You've had plenty of time to play at the level required, but I haven't seen it.  You're still a key player, and you're in the team as a substitution. When you get your chance in this game, prove me wrong and make a difference."  then against Newcastle, "Eric, now is your chance ... get out there and control the midfield and win us the game!"

JVS just sits there and looks like he doesn't know what to do. Its generally the assistants that do the yapping.  You have to coach on matchday, you have to inspire, you have to have good options as your substitutions to cover the team right across the pitch.  We are generally unbalanced in this area. And mostly, you have to show that you would rather die than lose ...!  

[jw1739]

I'm sorry, but the players are pretty piss-weak individuals if they require JvS to somehow get them to actually do the very basic thing in football - i.e. try to win. Are they actually incapable of doing anything without being "afraid", "respectful" or "motivated"? Are they incapable of self-motivation?

I'm no JvS lover. Sure he made mistakes before and during the Newcastle match, yes, yes, yes. But the players' performance was disgraceful. Full bloody stop.

 

[Torn Asunder]

Agree about the players, but they get away with it because the coach doesn't hold them to account.

[playmaker]

Sorry, but Friday night we were losing through the midfield, his sub's and lack of vision to change the formation was a tactical error, that's why we lost. Our midfield was spent and he did nothing to reinforce it defensively. If I was a player, I would be saying wtf like all the supporters were, as a consequence the morale dropped and the team had no direction which was evident by the way they played in the second half.

No leadership and bad tactical decisions is to blame. JVS is to blame.

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[Ray]

Or more likely ....

Experienced player: "Hey gaffer, it ain't working because of this and this and that. I think we should try this!".

JVS: Shuddup!  "I'm the manager and I tell YOU what to do. Now go out there and do it ".

Experienced player. "Hey gaffer, that didn't work. What about we try this."

JVS: "Ah shuddup! I know what I'm doing and have your career and balls in the palm of my hand. Now just go out and do it."

Experienced Player: "Hey gaffer, that didn't work either. You sure you want to do that again?"

JVS (under breath). Domme spelers, wat zouden ze weten!  Laat me op met FIFA Manager

[belaguttman]

Its a pointless exercise trying to apportion responsibility in one place. All in the team and coaching staff hold some responsibility individually but it's a group issue rather that it just being one individual. The coaching team are important but a functional working group doesn't look solely to the group leader to organise them. The biggest concern I have though is that as a group (no matter who the group individuals are) this group consistently fails to learn from its mistakes.

All coaches and players make mistakes but good players and coaches learn from them and so grow. We have a dysfunctional group process, we can change the individuals but as we have seen nothing has changed. I believe that we should change the coach as I think that he is tactically poor but also he has not been capable of changing the group dysfunction in fact I'd argue that he has been a major contributor to it. We all struggle to change things in others that we can't change in ourselves.

True, but the effort of the ones lower down on the chain will come to nothing if not matched and exceeded by the one at the top. The fact that this happens to every team he manages says all you need to know

Functional groups may have a 'chain of command' but not a hierarchy of responsibility'. Everyone in the group is equally responsible for making the group functional.

[belaguttman]

 

 

Sorry, but Friday night we were losing through the midfield, his sub's and lack of vision to change the formation was a tactical error, that's why we lost. Our midfield was spent and he did nothing to reinforce it defensively. If I was a player, I would be saying wtf like all the supporters were, as a consequence the morale dropped and the team had no direction which was evident by the way they played in the second half.

No leadership and bad tactical decisions is to blame. JVS is to blame.

 

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See my post above. JVS certainly has some responsibility and is performing poorly in his role. He's the weakest link in the chain that CFG have strengthened around him. What is essential though is not just replacing JVS but specifically replacing him with a 'strong link', not just any link.

[KSK_47]

Its a pointless exercise trying to apportion responsibility in one place.

True. But I still say is that JVS's resume speaks for itself

Edited November 2, 2015 by KSK_47

[cadete]

True. But I still say is that JVS's resume speaks for itself

Maybe he just needs the support of his family around him like when he was at Guadalajara in Mexico for example he recorded his most successful win rate...

Of 36.84%.

[belaguttman]

True. But I still say is that JVS's resume speaks for itself

I agree, this is an area that he struggles with and so he created that difficulty here as inaugural coach and unless he finds a way to resolve it then he'll take it to his next job. His replacement though needs to be specifically selected with this area as a demonstrated area of strength or the problem will persist. Look at how Ange turned around Roar that was quite similar, it can be done

[strider]

sign me up as coach. id give the best rub downs and zidane-esque headbutts to anyone talkin shit

[strider]

hi guys i made a chant for JVS next home game tell me what u think (beardedheart [aka the non-bearded pleb] and baka [aka the roid muncher])

 

his name is jvs
he is so shit
bad bad jvs
fk off dutch prik

[NewConvert]

As I said last year he lost the players and should have gone. That remains my observation. If he were to be replaced this week what could a new coach do? That could be difficult because the new coach will still be hampered with an injury list or player lacking match fitness let alone be able to play as a cohesive unit. Then the coach will need to get to know our current list. So I would not be expecting immediate satisfaction but at least we can see that there would be change; and right now, a change is what we need.

[Baka1]

hi guys i made a chant for JVS next home game tell me what u think (beardedheart [aka the non-bearded pleb] and baka [aka the roid muncher])

 

his name is jvs
he is so shit
bad bad jvs
fk off dutch prik

its so bad its good. Tifosi jvs

[belaguttman]

strider you should leave the 'Dutch' out of it, this has nothing to do with his nationality.

As I said last year he lost the players and should have gone. That remains my observation. If he were to be replaced this week what could a new coach do? That could be difficult because the new coach will still be hampered with an injury list or player lacking match fitness let alone be able to play as a cohesive unit. Then the coach will need to get to know our current list. So I would not be expecting immediate satisfaction but at least we can see that there would be change; and right now, a change is what we need.

We have a team of good players already. Things will change as soon as the mentality issue is addressed

[NewConvert]

strider you should leave the 'Dutch' out of it, this has nothing to do with his nationality.

We have a team of good players already. Things will change as soon as the mentality issue is addressed

I don't dispute that this is the best list that we have had. I merely noted that so far this season we have had 8/9 players injured every week. This limits the options somewhat regardless of who would be coach. I am also unconvinced by Paartalau and his role is a critical one. The options there are Melling, Clisby and Paartalau - Melling is still lacking fitness and knowing the way he goes about playing the game he will spend time suspended; Clisby has not been tried in that position; and Paartalau well he lacks speed (no coach can fix that) and I expect better of his distribution.

And yes things will change once someone mentally hardens the team up.

[jw1739]

If there exists any possibility that CFG might change the coach during this season, the problem is timing. Assuming that the minimum this season is to finish in the top four in the league before finals, then statistics over the past four 27-match seasons show that you will need between 41 and 46 points to finish 3rd or 4th.

After four matches we have 4 points, meaning that we will need another 37-42 points to secure a top four finish. This equates to 13-14 wins out of the 23 matches remaining.

Of course that is possible, and theoretically the club could win the last 13-14 matches in a row and meet the objective. But again, looking at our historical record of about 33% wins under JvS, securing a top four finish before finals simply gets harder and harder every week we don't win, and the required change in form has to be more and more dramatic. And this applies whoever our coach is.

So my feeling is that if a change is to take place it has to be within the next few weeks, and certainly before Christmas. After that it will be a tall order for any new coach to rescue anything out of the season. IMO the other major factor influencing any change will be if Melbourne City's performance is seen to be damaging the City "brand." The media has turned against us, and CFG won't be liking that.

 

[n i k o]

[belaguttman]

Melbourne City fans don't rate JVS either

[kingofhearts]

Melbourne City fans don't rate JVS either

does anyone rate him srs?

[Andrew Edmonds]

Friday morning after the Adelaide game he'll be gone.

[playmaker]

Friday morning after the Adelaide game he'll be gone.

Is this fact or opinion

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[Andrew Edmonds]

 

Is this fact or opinion

 

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Opinion, unless a win, considering CFG would know about the dysfunction between coach and players, don't give him long.

[playmaker]

Hope ur right.

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[malloy]

sign me up as coach. id give the best rub downs and zidane-esque headbutts to anyone talkin shit

Second best pal

[n i k o]

Judging by how CFG handled the sacking of Manchesters first coach I doubt they will change their minds even if JVS does have a win. If they feel he is losing the team and won't move them forward he'll be gone. They'll make sure however, that there's no uncertainty surrounding the decision I would think which means it won't happen any time soon. I'd be very surprised if he's sacked prior to Christmas. 

[dr lime]

We have a team of good players already. Things will change as soon as the mentality issue is addressed

I couldn't disagree more. Almost every player on our list apart from perhaps Mooy and Fornaroli and Sorensen at present has a significant flaw/deficiency in their game. 

Even the technically proficient like Koren and Novillo are cats, they go missing or start playing selfish football when things get tough. The younger guys are still learning the game and cementing a spot so can't be relied on to grab a game by the scruff of the neck, apart from perhaps Melling, who is underdone. Chapman is rubbish in the air, Paartalu and Kissy, while serviceable, are slow and their passing can be very poor at times. Mooy is not a "blood and guts" type and Forna and Sorensen have only just arrived and there is only so much you can do from in goals or up front. So the "mentality issue" is not something that can be addressed without significant changes in the list. JVS is soft, so he favours those with a soft mentality as they are easier to handle. Apart from 5 minutes when Aloisi was in charge (who learnt his initial coaching from JVS) he has been in charge and in control of assembling the squads. Almost without exception he has assembled young kids, introverted journeymen and technical ballplayers. As much as I disliked Muscat as a player, we need someone with that mentality, but JVS seemingly can't handle a big personality, so when things go against us, there is no-one to "stand up" with any kind of mental toughness. The "Senior players" that are supposed to stand up are either in positions where they can't influence things that much or are not really strong-willed types to start with. How Koren was ever a Captain of an EPL club is beyond me. Now, not everyone has to be a Muscat type, but we need a mixture and JVS has shown that he just won't pick/recruit guys with a strong mentality or combative nature. You can't win things with just technically gifted introverts and a fair chunk of our guys aren't even technically gifted. 

All this is before we even talk about system, style of play, motivation of players, balance of players on the subs bench and stupid tactical moves... all the province of the Head Coach. I didn't mind him to begin with, but he has lost me. 

Hopefully Hughes is a first class bastard and scares the shit out of the players around him so that the kind of rubbish we saw at the weekend doesn't return. But I won't hold my breath waiting for the mentality issue to be addressed. 

[Tesla]

WOW HOLY SHIT PEOPLE STILL USING THE OUR PLAYERS ARENT GOOD ENOUGH SIOEWTEWJKWEGWEOFGEWOFIHUWEFHuiHUIPWEFPU HUIPuiWBNEFBNWFE

[strider]

WOW HOLY SHIT PEOPLE STILL USING THE OUR PLAYERS ARENT GOOD ENOUGH SIOEWTEWJKWEGWEOFGEWOFIHUWEFHuiHUIPWEFPU HUIPuiWBNEFBNWFE

tes are u on the cook

[Jovan]

I couldn't disagree more. Almost every player on our list apart from perhaps Mooy and Fornaroli and Sorensen at present has a significant flaw/deficiency in their game. 

Even the technically proficient like Koren and Novillo are cats, they go missing or start playing selfish football when things get tough. The younger guys are still learning the game and cementing a spot so can't be relied on to grab a game by the scruff of the neck, apart from perhaps Melling, who is underdone. Chapman is rubbish in the air, Paartalu and Kissy, while serviceable, are slow and their passing can be very poor at times. Mooy is not a "blood and guts" type and Forna and Sorensen have only just arrived and there is only so much you can do from in goals or up front. So the "mentality issue" is not something that can be addressed without significant changes in the list. JVS is soft, so he favours those with a soft mentality as they are easier to handle. Apart from 5 minutes when Aloisi was in charge (who learnt his initial coaching from JVS) he has been in charge and in control of assembling the squads. Almost without exception he has assembled young kids, introverted journeymen and technical ballplayers. As much as I disliked Muscat as a player, we need someone with that mentality, but JVS seemingly can't handle a big personality, so when things go against us, there is no-one to "stand up" with any kind of mental toughness. The "Senior players" that are supposed to stand up are either in positions where they can't influence things that much or are not really strong-willed types to start with. How Koren was ever a Captain of an EPL club is beyond me. Now, not everyone has to be a Muscat type, but we need a mixture and JVS has shown that he just won't pick/recruit guys with a strong mentality or combative nature. You can't win things with just technically gifted introverts and a fair chunk of our guys aren't even technically gifted. 

All this is before we even talk about system, style of play, motivation of players, balance of players on the subs bench and stupid tactical moves... all the province of the Head Coach. I didn't mind him to begin with, but he has lost me. 

Hopefully Hughes is a first class bastard and scares the shit out of the players around him so that the kind of rubbish we saw at the weekend doesn't return. But I won't hold my breath waiting for the mentality issue to be addressed. 

nope. 

The playing list is and should win the League. We have 16 quality senior A League players  (I'm including Hughes he has 100 international caps).

The mentality issue is a little overstated. For me it comes down to the way the team is set up and the basic game plan.

We are trying to play a very high intensity pressing game and high possession style game. It's flawed. It can't work in the A League. It's too hot and travel times and therefore recovery times are too inhibitive.

Don't get me wrong I prefer a proactive attacking style but it can't be done for 90 minutes especially come December to February. 

Problem is the coach and I fear CFG are determined to make it work.

[morphine]

 

We are trying to play a very high intensity pressing game and high possession style game. It's flawed. It can't work in the A League. It's too hot and travel times and therefore recovery times are too inhibitive.

Don't get me wrong I prefer a proactive attacking style but it can't be done for 90 minutes especially come December to February. 

Problem is the coach and I fear CFG are determined to make it work.

it can work, and it will work I believe. The issue isn't that part, it's in being able to recognize when we need to keep posession, when we need to harass and when we need to dig in and absorb. It's about game management. The Manager either can't read the game or can but can't effect if on the pitch. The players either can't read it (arguably they don't have to be able to with a capable Manager directing them) or they can't effect it on the pitch. The latter simply isn't true.

We need a leader*. 

 

 

*Kisnorbo is obviously a brain dead moron who has a go, not an intelligent leader. 

[n i k o]

I couldn't disagree more. Almost every player on our list apart from perhaps Mooy and Fornaroli and Sorensen at present has a significant flaw/deficiency in their game. 

Welcome to the aleague, where every player has flaws/deficiencies. 

[KSK_47]

I couldn't disagree more. Almost every player on our list apart from perhaps Mooy and Fornaroli and Sorensen at present has a significant flaw/deficiency in their game. 

 

Yeah. You are right. It must be the players again. The stats in my sig must be misleading because it just happens that every time JVS takes a job his squad is way worse than everyone else's in the league. I mean, look at all the teams above us, like Newcastle and Wellington. They are full of superstars without any weak links on the list. Right?

 

[Dylan]

All good and well to blame either the players or JVS. Real question is whether JVS can last until this thread hits 100 pages.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Dylan

[KSK_47]

All good and well to blame either the players or JVS. Real question is weather JVS can last until this thread hits 100 pages.

I feel sick thinking about it, but I honestly think he will

[n i k o]

I feel sick thinking about it, but I honestly think he will

I'm quite sure Aloisi never survived 100 pages. Good omen. That means JVS should be sacked within ten pages. It's been 54 weeks since the thread was opened and we have hit 90 pages .

90/54 = 1.6 pages per week.

10 pages / 1.6 = 6.25 weeks.

6.25 weeks = 1 germano (rounded down)

Therefore JVS should be sacked within 1 germano.