The JvS thread

[SF33]

 

I'm behind JVS for the rest of the season. He's (pretty much) booked a ticket to the finals and our best season ever. Not exactly worthy of a ticker tape parade, but a positive step.

 

If we were languishing with Central Coast, Newcastle and West Sydney, it would be a different story to me, but he's given us a chance to make this a really positive season. I don't see why we couldn't knock off any of our potential opponents in the first week of finals (and how sweet would a win at Etihad be?). In the next couple of weeks, we should pretty much have everyone back and ready to go. It's just my opinion but I hope JVS does as well as possible from here. If we were in no-man's land (yet again) it would be different. And if that means he gets extended and it all goes to shit next year, well that's a risk I'm willing to take.

I don't want a coach who will get us to the finals, I want a coach who will win us the Premiership and championship, we don't have one.

 

 

That's fair enough. My point is, it's an easy decision to make if you're sitting at the foot of the ladder, you're in the position where you can say 'I hope we lose, so they will can this muppet'. But if you're going into finals (perhaps even with some good momentum...who knows how we will look in four weeks?), I think it's a bit more problematic to take that line. We've beaten three of the teams above us this season and will get the opportunity to beat the other two in the run home (we've had three draws and a loss in our games against Perth and Wellington). If the finals started next week, I'd think we'd be a good chance of getting a win against anyone else in the six, though I certainly wouldn't be confident in us maintaining the consistent form that would be required to win it all.

 

If the team gets to this stage of the season and has a chance (however remote) to win it all, I'm hoping it wins every game. Even if that means a coach with a dubious record has to be retained. I think the only alternative is to actively hope we lose, because that's the only way that JVS will come under serious threat in the remainder of the season: if we finish off with four or less points, limp into the finals and get smashed. There's a lot of players on this team (and people in the front office, for that matter) that I don't rate at all either. But if they're on the ground, I want them to succeed, without question. I'm not going to tell other people how to approach it, but from this point, I want to win every game. And if that means JVS is our coach next season, so be it.

[cadete]

 

In tennis a study was done with 500 coaches as the sample, they were asked to identify a problem with a player and see if they could correctly identify it and also provide a solution to fixing it. Of the 500 coaches only 7% could immediately identify the problem but only 3% could make the corrections immediately to fix it. Of those other 93% a number of them later could identify the problem but this was through trial and error until it led them to the correct answer. The others couldn't identify the problem until it was pointed out to them.

Im of the belief that this applies to most coaches across sport and for me JVS is in that percentage that could identify the problem with more time but he wouldn't be one of those within the 7% that could immediately identify the problem. As with so many of his decisions and solutions they have come later down the track and not immediately. They have almost been knee jerk reactions, like our defensive woes at the beginning of the season or his decision to take on a harder approach following our loss to wellington. Ideally we want a coach that is part of the 3% group but at the very least we need a coach that can immediately identify the problem and initiate an immediate change.

I don't think we necessarily need a coach in the 3%. As long as the coach is one that can man manage and implement the 'fixes' and surrounds himself with highly capable assistants who can identify the issues.

IMO JVS is some one who has a good technical understanding of the game, but has no idea of how to translate this understanding onto the pitch. Either through adequate instructions to the players or through trying to minimise the impact of their inadequacies (and yes every one in our team has some form of inadequacy otherwise they would not be playing in A-League). It is for this reason I do not think he is the one to take us forward.

Edit: Part of the reason I think he has kept his job for so long and is regarded alot higher than his capability is because he has a strong technical knowledge and can demonstrate that he has it in a meeting with the board. But if you can't turn that into results then he shouldnt be around.

 

You see this in AFL - Which a lot which I know a lot of Purists on here will dismiss as not a very tactical game but in reality it actually has become very tactical game in the past fifteen years and you can see similarities between AFL coaches and those in Soccer.

 

You have some coaches who are not the best in the field when it comes to tactics but they are very good at connecting with the player group and building a strong team mantra and being able to adapt to the different players in the squads personalities. Mick Malthouse is your perfect example of such a coach and it was this relationship he had with his players that won Collingwood their 2010 flag.

 

I imagine Muscat would be similar in how runs things at Victory.

 

Then you have other coaches who are strong tacticians and really good at identifying their players talents this is how Bomber Thompson was able to win his flags with Geelong. Importantly though Geelong identified that Thompson's ability to relate with his players could be poor at times so they brought in Neil Blame as Player Manager to deal with the human side of the game.

 

Like Malloy says I think JVS fits into this category of someone with a good understanding of the game but one who lacks ability to communicate his good technical understanding to his players and at the same time motivate them as individuals.

Edited March 30, 2015 by cadete

[kingofhearts]

I blame him to a big extent for us having such a poor squad to begin with. He had an opportunity to sign enough quality players in the right positions for us to be a stronger team through preseason. If anything he's fortunate we have had so many injuries that have allowed him to bring in better players than he had decided to start the season with.

Right on the money.

 

I was always a big JVS fan (read earlier pages of this thread if you don't believe me) but he has really lucked out getting players like Novillo and Jailens to cover obvious flaws with his game plan. Yes, we have been winning lately but with the list we have we really should've been finishing around the 4-5th mark. It just not acceptable IMO to scrape into 6th spot when the teams below us lets be honest, are really fucking horrible.

 

People think that due to this mini run we've turned it around but i've seen it all before. Remember after a good win against Adelaide when we went to CCM and WSW and completely dropped and egg? Its inconsistent shit like that which stops me from believing in JVS. If he wants to change my opinion, nothing short of winning 3 out of the last 4 games is acceptable. Yes, my standards may be set high but i'm not here to scrape into the finals. Either be a contender or drop out and reload the team for next season.

 

With some luck in the offseason we'll get a good coach who can realise the lists potential 

[n i k o]

In tennis a study was done with 500 coaches as the sample, they were asked to identify a problem with a player and see if they could correctly identify it and also provide a solution to fixing it. Of the 500 coaches only 7% could immediately identify the problem but only 3% could make the corrections immediately to fix it. Of those other 93% a number of them later could identify the problem but this was through trial and error until it led them to the correct answer. The others couldn't identify the problem until it was pointed out to them.

Im of the belief that this applies to most coaches across sport and for me JVS is in that percentage that could identify the problem with more time but he wouldn't be one of those within the 7% that could immediately identify the problem. As with so many of his decisions and solutions they have come later down the track and not immediately. They have almost been knee jerk reactions, like our defensive woes at the beginning of the season or his decision to take on a harder approach following our loss to wellington. Ideally we want a coach that is part of the 3% group but at the very least we need a coach that can immediately identify the problem and initiate an immediate change.

I don't think we necessarily need a coach in the 3%. As long as the coach is one that can man manage and implement the 'fixes' and surrounds himself with highly capable assistants who can identify the issues.

IMO JVS is some one who has a good technical understanding of the game, but has no idea of how to translate this understanding onto the pitch. Either through adequate instructions to the players or through trying to minimise the impact of their inadequacies (and yes every one in our team has some form of inadequacy otherwise they would not be playing in A-League). It is for this reason I do not think he is the one to take us forward.

Edit: Part of the reason I think he has kept his job for so long and is regarded alot higher than his capability is because he has a strong technical knowledge and can demonstrate that he has it in a meeting with the board. But if you can't turn that into results then he shouldnt be around.

And I agree, with your assessment of JVS and also that we don't need a coach of that top top quality to be successful.

[belaguttman]

We need a coach who is top quality in order to win the ACL. This is what we should be aiming at. JVS won't get us there.

[bt50]

I blame him to a big extent for us having such a poor squad to begin with. He had an opportunity to sign enough quality players in the right positions for us to be a stronger team through preseason. If anything he's fortunate we have had so many injuries that have allowed him to bring in better players than he had decided to start the season with.

Right on the money.

I was always a big JVS fan (read earlier pages of this thread if you don't believe me) but he has really lucked out getting players like Novillo and Jailens to cover obvious flaws with his game plan. Yes, we have been winning lately but with the list we have we really should've been finishing around the 4-5th mark. It just not acceptable IMO to scrape into 6th spot when the teams below us lets be honest, are really fucking horrible.

People think that due to this mini run we've turned it around but i've seen it all before. Remember after a good win against Adelaide when we went to CCM and WSW and completely dropped and egg? Its inconsistent shit like that which stops me from believing in JVS. If he wants to change my opinion, nothing short of winning 3 out of the last 4 games is acceptable. Yes, my standards may be set high but i'm not here to scrape into the finals. Either be a contender or drop out and reload the team for next season.

With some luck in the offseason we'll get a good coach who can realise the lists potential Dean Laidley was a good example of the polar opposite.

Tactically one if the best, but found it hard to relate to the playing group

[Tony999]

We're ganna win the league with this guy!

[cadete]

I blame him to a big extent for us having such a poor squad to begin with. He had an opportunity to sign enough quality players in the right positions for us to be a stronger team through preseason. If anything he's fortunate we have had so many injuries that have allowed him to bring in better players than he had decided to start the season with.

Right on the money.

I was always a big JVS fan (read earlier pages of this thread if you don't believe me) but he has really lucked out getting players like Novillo and Jailens to cover obvious flaws with his game plan. Yes, we have been winning lately but with the list we have we really should've been finishing around the 4-5th mark. It just not acceptable IMO to scrape into 6th spot when the teams below us lets be honest, are really fucking horrible.

People think that due to this mini run we've turned it around but i've seen it all before. Remember after a good win against Adelaide when we went to CCM and WSW and completely dropped and egg? Its inconsistent shit like that which stops me from believing in JVS. If he wants to change my opinion, nothing short of winning 3 out of the last 4 games is acceptable. Yes, my standards may be set high but i'm not here to scrape into the finals. Either be a contender or drop out and reload the team for next season.

With some luck in the offseason we'll get a good coach who can realise the lists potential

Dean Laidley was a good example of the polar opposite.

Tactically one if the best, but found it hard to relate to the playing group Yeah, he was also on my mind as I made that post...

[Heart_fan]

The thing that most annoys me about JVS is his comments over time about the player's not being mentally strong enough or not delivering to the game plan. He is the manager, it is his job to instill that into the players he signs.

 

The fact that he chops and changes the game style so often has got to be frustrating to players, who spent the pre-season trying to understand what he wants (ie possession based football), but now end up playing the polar opposite. It's now purely counter attacking, negative minded football on display, and Eric Paartalu's words a few weeks ago seemed to give away his frustraton about the coaching directives.

 

Last season was a write off when he took over, but this year has been a major clean-out already, with some more to go to complete the removal of some of the legacy players. He had his chance to sign players that fit the style and the mental toughness he is looking for, yet we end up with the same old issues. The general link has always seemingly pointed back to the manager.

 

In saying all that though, getting into the finals would be a decent effort, but actually doing something significant to get there would be even better. I don't expect us to win the thing, but to get to the 2nd week of the finals would be a huge boost leading into next season.

 

I can still see us making it hard for ourselves over the next few weeks though, as we always seem to do. Its that standard rollercoaster of emotions we get put through so often.

 

One only hopes that CFG can make a call soon after the season is over one way or the other. Based on the ability to produce the style that has been talked about so often but never delivered, they will need to examine just what they want this club to achieve longer term.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Heart_fan

[Judge]

JVS this season has rebuilt ths squad all be it some players arriving later than he would have liked , but we are in the mix we do have 4 hard games coming up Guess What every game for every club is going to be hard from now on, looking around at the other coaches in the A League are most of those clubs really better off Perth Glory first win in 10 games, Kenny Lowe abandoning his youth policy for ageing players, CCM rebuilding, Newcastle same, Sydney and Mvc always going to buy players rather than nurture there youth . Adelaide and Wellington the most improved sides did Wellington tell Merrick he had one year to get his act together No he has done a good job as has Adelaide albeit with the Spanish influence lets see how the season pans out. Then we can criticise. Compared to last year Chalk and Cheese , If next year we improve the same ???? Unfortunately that is Football play great get beat, play bad and win, that is why we love and hate the game. So lets get behind the Team and the Manager.

[KSK_47]

So lets get behind the Team and the Manager.

 

No

[Jovan]

So lets get behind the Team and the Manager.

 

No

Are you sure you don't want some time to think about it KSK?

[belaguttman]

JVS this season has rebuilt ths squad all be it some players arriving later than he would have liked , but we are in the mix we do have 4 hard games coming up Guess What every game for every club is going to be hard from now on, looking around at the other coaches in the A League are most of those clubs really better off Perth Glory first win in 10 games, Kenny Lowe abandoning his youth policy for ageing players, CCM rebuilding, Newcastle same, Sydney and Mvc always going to buy players rather than nurture there youth . Adelaide and Wellington the most improved sides did Wellington tell Merrick he had one year to get his act together No he has done a good job as has Adelaide albeit with the Spanish influence lets see how the season pans out. Then we can criticise. Compared to last year Chalk and Cheese , If next year we improve the same ???? Unfortunately that is Football play great get beat, play bad and win, that is why we love and hate the game. So lets get behind the Team and the Manager.

Judge, I don't think that we are either behind him or not at all behind him. There's no doubt that there's been some progress from last season, however the question is have we seen enough from the coaching team to convince us that the present philosophy can be successfully implemented and take us all the way to a successful ACL campaign? I think not but that doesn't mean that the current team and JVS don't get our support until the end of the season.

 

Meanwhile, we sharpen the knives...

[Ray]

I just have one question asked two ways.

 

Why is it that a number of players of quality and who definitely have a never say die attitude perform with mediocrity when they have moved to City?

Why is it that a number of players of lesser quality and possibly of fragile disposition seem to be able to perform under the likes of Merrick, Gombau and for god sake even Muscrat?

 

Obviously our players, once they accept their contracts just bludge and accept the money. It cannot be the coach's fault. It must be the players who cannot perform.

[Jovan]

 

JVS this season has rebuilt ths squad all be it some players arriving later than he would have liked , but we are in the mix we do have 4 hard games coming up Guess What every game for every club is going to be hard from now on, looking around at the other coaches in the A League are most of those clubs really better off Perth Glory first win in 10 games, Kenny Lowe abandoning his youth policy for ageing players, CCM rebuilding, Newcastle same, Sydney and Mvc always going to buy players rather than nurture there youth . Adelaide and Wellington the most improved sides did Wellington tell Merrick he had one year to get his act together No he has done a good job as has Adelaide albeit with the Spanish influence lets see how the season pans out. Then we can criticise. Compared to last year Chalk and Cheese , If next year we improve the same ???? Unfortunately that is Football play great get beat, play bad and win, that is why we love and hate the game. So lets get behind the Team and the Manager.

 

Meanwhile, we sharpen the knives...

 

And wait until !0am Thursday.

[cadete]

I just have one question asked two ways.

 

Why is it that a number of players of quality and who definitely have a never say die attitude perform with mediocrity when they have moved to City?

Why is it that a number of players of lesser quality and possibly of fragile disposition seem to be able to perform under the likes of Merrick, Gombau and for god sake even Muscrat?

 

Obviously our players, once they accept their contracts just bludge and accept the money. It cannot be the coach's fault. It must be the players who cannot perform.

Normally I will back up anything Anti JVS - I have done as such for years now but...

 

I distinctly remember us beating Adelaide and their Mastermind Gombau, and their Wonderkid having one of the longest and greatest sulks in A-League History when he was subbed off.

[NewConvert]

It is mathematically possible for City to win its last four games for a total of 45 points. This would be a club record. So does this mean that JVS should be shown the door in spite of having the best season yet?

[belaguttman]

It is mathematically possible for City to win its last four games for a total of 45 points. This would be a club record. So does this mean that JVS should be shown the door in spite of having the best season yet?

It depends on the assessment of his future potential in developing a team and communicating his vision and tactics to the team.

[Kiro Kompiro]

I just have one question asked two ways.

 

Why is it that a number of players of quality and who definitely have a never say die attitude perform with mediocrity when they have moved to City?

Why is it that a number of players of lesser quality and possibly of fragile disposition seem to be able to perform under the likes of Merrick, Gombau and for god sake even Muscrat?

 

Obviously our players, once they accept their contracts just bludge and accept the money. It cannot be the coach's fault. It must be the players who cannot perform.

 

 

There has been a change in that culture this season,and the end of last season to be fair. 

 

JVS milked Heart in his first stint, as did many of the players he signed.

 

When he and the players learned of City's takeover, suddenly they had an extra spring in their steps. 

 

Then guys like Paartalu get 4 year contracts, that he knows will be paid out no matter what, and with the first season nearly over he still hasn't worked his fitness out.

 

Having said that, there are several ex-heart players who are now facing the chop or being frozen out.  Not before time too.

[cadete]

It is mathematically possible for City to win its last four games for a total of 45 points. This would be a club record. So does this mean that JVS should be shown the door in spite of having the best season yet?

LOL - The club trained in a cow paddock (When it was not flooded seventy percent of the time) in the past Four Seasons.

 

Comparing the Squads of the last three Seasons to this years Squad is like comparing the three Picnic Plodders that Jim from Warracknabeal has in training to Gai Waterhouse's Stable.

Edited March 31, 2015 by cadete

[HEARTinator]

The thing that most annoys me about JVS is his comments over time about the player's not being mentally strong enough or not delivering to the game plan. He is the manager, it is his job to instill that into the players he signs.

 

 

Correct on both counts. In the first season it was also that the players were 'scared'.

 

FFS, it's the job of the coach to instil confidence in the players. Guide, encourage, coach etc. Agree with most that he has the technical competance but IMHO, lacks the ability to get the most out of the playing group on a 'human level' - lacks people leadership. He doesn't cut it as the General but can play the handy Lieutenant role.

[jw1739]

We are actually going to see how much "bottle" the playing squad and the coaches have over these remaining four matches. Before every one of the four matches they will know precisely what the challenge is in terms of points. The outcome of this season is in no-one's hands but theirs.

 

From this particular perspective the season could not have worked out better.

[RedAndWhitePride]

We are actually going to see how much "bottle" the playing squad and the coaches have over these remaining four matches. Before every one of the four matches they will know precisely what the challenge is in terms of points. The outcome of this season is in no-one's hands but theirs.

 

From this particular perspective the season could not have worked out better.

 

[kingofhearts]

And here lies the problem:

 

http://www.a-league.com.au/article/city-satisfied-but-with-point-to-prove/7zyo3xl4aiw2191ypv5iny3bt

 

Satisfied with a point? Great. Time to fuck this loser off.

[Tony999]

So what's wrong with being satisfied with a point? I'm over the moon with that point considering how we played.

[HEARTinator]

So what's wrong with being satisfied with a point? I'm over the moon with that point considering how we played.

Fair point, 'specially the last bit. We could have easily conceded more goals in the 1st half and JVS knows that we pinched a point last night. Probably undeservedly overall.

[Melburnian]

So what's wrong with being satisfied with a point? I'm over the moon with that point considering how we played.

It's that attitude that means we never strive for the ultimate. It's this attitude held by most at the Heart inside the organisation that meant we as fans were cheated out of success.

Happy with a point despite the way we played or pissed off about the way we played. Mental strength of a gold fish.

[bellydrum]

Even if we won the league some of you blokes would be coming up with insults like "his grin wasn't wide enough", "he didn't do a victory dance", and "he didn't hold the trophy high enough".

[sheepdog]

A goldfish would have quite high mental strength I would think.

imagine swimming around in circles day after day, year after year for what? Absolutely nothing.

I wouldn't have the mental strength to do that my whole life.

[thisphantomfortress]

Even if we won the league some of you blokes would be coming up with insults like "his grin wasn't wide enough", "he didn't do a victory dance", and "he didn't hold the trophy high enough".

Are you JVS in disguise?

[SF33]

 

So what's wrong with being satisfied with a point? I'm over the moon with that point considering how we played.

Fair point, 'specially the last bit. We could have easily conceded more goals in the 1st half and JVS knows that we pinched a point last night. Probably undeservedly overall.

 

 

I agree with this. It's a fair enough comment from him, though the standard of play has to improve dramatically. I can't think of many coaches that wouldn't have said something similar at one stage or another during the season. Arsenal's Invincibles drew twelve times that season. By the time we take on Wellington, it will be over a month since we've lost and we'll have banked ten points of a possible twelve. There's positives to be found.

 

The tricky bit is that we have the teams that currently sit first, fourth and fifth left to play, the latter two away from home. Since we didn't collect full points from a game that we should have been expecting to, JVS should be demanding that those points are picked up elsewhere in the run home.

[belaguttman]

We have actually beaten visitors and Adelaide at home and Sydney away this season. All are above us. It just depends which City turns up, we've also had bad loses to all of them and Wellington. 2 draws with Perth who along with Adelaide have peaked too early. We may get the Perth points regardless of the results on the pitch

[KSK_47]

So what's wrong with being satisfied with a point? I'm over the moon with that point considering how we played.

 

Thats the part I'm not satisfied with.

 

Even if we won the league some of you blokes would be coming up with insults like "his grin wasn't wide enough", "he didn't do a victory dance", and "he didn't hold the trophy high enough".

 

True. Comparing us scraping a point against the team second last on the ladder in a fixture that could have pretty much assured us a spot in the playoffs to winning the league is a completely fair comparison. You've completely changed my mind. Three cheers for JVS

Edited April 4, 2015 by KSK_47

[Shahanga]

I can't see how the bloke can keep his job given how we're playing right now. I'm really disappointed and I can't imagine CFG accepting it. (Don't get me wrong I take whatever we can get on the field but it isn't going to take the club forward)

[bellydrum]

 

Even if we won the league some of you blokes would be coming up with insults like "his grin wasn't wide enough", "he didn't do a victory dance", and "he didn't hold the trophy high enough".

Are you JVS in disguise?

 

JVS wouldn't read this forum because

JVS 2 strong for this forum

[jw1739]

I can't see how the bloke can keep his job given how we're playing right now. I'm really disappointed and I can't imagine CFG accepting it. (Don't get me wrong I take whatever we can get on the field but it isn't going to take the club forward)

In the past few matches we seem to have become very disjointed. I don't think there's much doubt that our defence has improved, but even so we are being let off the hook by wasteful opposition (Heart in reverse!). The main problem to me is up front; our leading goalscoring forward being David Williams with 3 including 1 penalty, and that's just not good enough. To me it seems that van 't Schip doesn't really seem to know what style of football he wants, and we're drifting accordingly. So I agree - he is not the man who can take us to the required level.

 

I wouldn't like to predict what will happen in the off-season, either to the playing squad or the coaching team.

[Melburnian]

Has to be let go at the end of the season. Finals or no finals.

[drewmelbcity]

Why the negativity gents since the Asian break our form has been solid. Disregarding the game against the visitors and consider that to be the form of a derby. We are have been tight defensively and have been getting results. We will make finals which is four positions better than where we finished last season on top of that one more win and we have equalled our best total season points. Take in the fact we have battled massive injuries all season, the inconsistency of our squad I think we have done well to be in the position we are in. Am I satisfied no but there are building blocks now put in place to build upon.

[Parrot]

_{Reading some posts I started to wonder, "How would Graham Arnold do with our squad?"}

 

_{Then I remembered that just a few weeks ago we paid a visit to Sydney FC and beat the Graham Arnold coached Sydney FC when no one gave us a chance.}
 

_{Of course, would Graham Arnold have signed our two marquees?}

 

_{Under the current A League set up, proper marquees on big dollars are not meant to be bit players like Kennedy and Koren.}


 

<sub>.



.</sub> 

[jw1739]

It's interesting to see how the match-day squad has changed.

 

When we lined up for the first match of the season it was as follows:

Redmayne;

Archibald, Kisnorbo, Wielaert, Ramsay;

Paartalu;

Murdocca, Mooy;

Duff, Dugandzic, Brown.

 

Bench: Velaphi, Melling, Marino, Retre, Villa.

 

During the match van 't Schip took off Brown and Dugandzic, and put on Marino and Villa.

 

And here's where we were against Western Sydney Wanderers in our last match.

Velaphi;

Retre, Kisnorbo, Jaliens, Clisby;

Paartalu;

Germano, Mooy;

Koren Kennedy, Novillo.

 

Bench: Redmayne, Ramsay, Dugandzic, Murdocca, Williams.

Off: Retre, Clisby and Novillo; On : Williams, Dugandzic, Ramsay.

 

For various reasons we have seen very significant changes to the starting line-up over the season. Taking that into account I can see the argument that van 't Schip should be given further time.