The JvS thread

[silva10]

We can debate JVS's ability as a coach until the cow's come home. However, CFG won't act before the season is finished or nearly finished in my view.

 

They will wait to see if he can turn things around in the 2nd half of the season, however going on a run of 6 games without defeat will count for nothing if we finish out of the play offs by a long way.

 

As for the views of the people on this forum. I would say for the most part they are pretty entrenched either in support of JVS or against. 

 

IMO I believe that the tide is turning against JVS and he really needs to buck up his ideas if he is to be here next season.

[NewConvert]

Coming over from AFL I am annually surprised over player turnover in every club. Every season since its inception at least 9 players have been moved on by Heart/City. From season 1 only Hoffman and Kalmar are left with the latter clearly on the outer and more than likely his contract won't be renewed at season's end (not 100% confident on that, after all they gave Hoffman a contract extension). So given that at least 48% of players are moved on every season there is plenty of team renewal. So its either our recruitment that is so crap that we get players that don't have the killer instinct and hunger to win or as soon as they walk in the door the culture just drains them. I am not sure what could be a solution.

As for JVS I was happy that he returned and was comfortable with his appointment for three seasons. An alarm bell began to toll when Hoffman was given a two year contract extension and now I realise that there are only four nominated defenders so if the club can only get like for like players then we don't have enough nominated depth to bring a new player in. This team reeks of imbalance and that is another black mark against JVS.

the one thing that JVS did well upon his return and in his first season was that he made tactical moves during the game that paid off. He was unpredictable in his game plan. This season he has hardly experimented on game day.

Finally I note that Chapman has contracted glandular fever and even if he recovers enough he probably won't get to see game time this season due to lack of fitness. He could be moved to the long term injury list and then Jason Davidson brought in.

[belaguttman]

I'm not in the 'sack JVS camp' but neither am I in the 'retain JVS camp', I don't think that we have enough information yet. Clearly we have recruited an unbalanced squad, but without having knowledge of the CFG goals and timeline and the recruiting strategy of the franchise, it's difficult to understand whether this is ineptitude or a deliberate strategy to improve the squad over 2 seasons. Certainly JVS has been less tactically flexible this season, but flexibility depends on things like players on the pitch and avail;able on the bench, and also the game plan. I'm expecting an improvement in the second half of the season but if we finish any lower than 6th then his role really does need to be questioned along with the admin and other backroom staff. There are also risks that come from the long-term instability that results from constant turnover of players and support staff, it really is hard to build an enduring culture and team loyalty.

[Falastur]

We can debate JVS's ability as a coach until the cow's come home. However, CFG won't act before the season is finished or nearly finished in my view.

 

They will wait to see if he can turn things around in the 2nd half of the season, however going on a run of 6 games without defeat will count for nothing if we finish out of the play offs by a long way.

 

As for the views of the people on this forum. I would say for the most part they are pretty entrenched either in support of JVS or against. 

 

IMO I believe that the tide is turning against JVS and he really needs to buck up his ideas if he is to be here next season.

 

I also think they'll give him time, but I'm not sure whether they would insist on waiting until the end of the season if he continues scoring an average of one point per game. I'm pretty sure they'd wait to see if Kennedy, Miller and Koren improved the team, though.

[cadete]

I'm not in the 'sack JVS camp' but neither am I in the 'retain JVS camp', I don't think that we have enough information yet. Clearly we have recruited an unbalanced squad, but without having knowledge of the CFG goals and timeline and the recruiting strategy of the franchise, it's difficult to understand whether this is ineptitude or a deliberate strategy to improve the squad over 2 seasons. Certainly JVS has been less tactically flexible this season, but flexibility depends on things like players on the pitch and avail;able on the bench, and also the game plan. I'm expecting an improvement in the second half of the season but if we finish any lower than 6th then his role really does need to be questioned along with the admin and other backroom staff. There are also risks that come from the long-term instability that results from constant turnover of players and support staff, it really is hard to build an enduring culture and team loyalty.

So true - Only once we get Bale, Ronaldo and Franz Fucken Beckenbauer on the pitch will it be fair to judge JVS...

 

His two and half Seasons as a shit A-League coach with a 30% win rate are meaningless. 

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

I'm not in the 'sack JVS camp' but neither am I in the 'retain JVS camp', I don't think that we have enough information yet. Clearly we have recruited an unbalanced squad, but without having knowledge of the CFG goals and timeline and the recruiting strategy of the franchise, it's difficult to understand whether this is ineptitude or a deliberate strategy to improve the squad over 2 seasons. Certainly JVS has been less tactically flexible this season, but flexibility depends on things like players on the pitch and avail;able on the bench, and also the game plan. I'm expecting an improvement in the second half of the season but if we finish any lower than 6th then his role really does need to be questioned along with the admin and other backroom staff. There are also risks that come from the long-term instability that results from constant turnover of players and support staff, it really is hard to build an enduring culture and team loyalty.

So true - Only once we get Bale, Ronaldo and Franz Fucken Beckenbauer on the pitch will it be fair to judge JVS...

 

His two and half Seasons as a shit A-League coach with a 30% win rate are meaningless. 

 

 

 

Depends.  

 

Which Ronaldo do you mean?

[Tonyboozeadams]

I'm not in the 'sack JVS camp' but neither am I in the 'retain JVS camp', I don't think that we have enough information yet. Clearly we have recruited an unbalanced squad, but without having knowledge of the CFG goals and timeline and the recruiting strategy of the franchise, it's difficult to understand whether this is ineptitude or a deliberate strategy to improve the squad over 2 seasons. Certainly JVS has been less tactically flexible this season, but flexibility depends on things like players on the pitch and avail;able on the bench, and also the game plan. I'm expecting an improvement in the second half of the season but if we finish any lower than 6th then his role really does need to be questioned along with the admin and other backroom staff. There are also risks that come from the long-term instability that results from constant turnover of players and support staff, it really is hard to build an enduring culture and team loyalty.

So true - Only once we get Bale, Ronaldo and Franz Fucken Beckenbauer on the pitch will it be fair to judge JVS...

His two and half Seasons as a shit A-League coach with a 30% win rate are meaningless.

Depends.

Which Ronaldo do you mean?

The fat one that bangs tranny's

[cadete]

Clearly I meant both... it would be a bit unfair to judge JVS if he only had one Ronaldo.

Edited November 20, 2014 by cadete

[jw1739]

I'm not in the 'sack JVS camp' but neither am I in the 'retain JVS camp', I don't think that we have enough information yet. Clearly we have recruited an unbalanced squad, but without having knowledge of the CFG goals and timeline and the recruiting strategy of the franchise, it's difficult to understand whether this is ineptitude or a deliberate strategy to improve the squad over 2 seasons. Certainly JVS has been less tactically flexible this season, but flexibility depends on things like players on the pitch and avail;able on the bench, and also the game plan. I'm expecting an improvement in the second half of the season but if we finish any lower than 6th then his role really does need to be questioned along with the admin and other backroom staff. There are also risks that come from the long-term instability that results from constant turnover of players and support staff, it really is hard to build an enduring culture and team loyalty.

1. How much longer do you think we need? He had two seasons as Head Coach, and his latest stint started before Christmas 2013 - almost 11 months ago.

 

2. All these factors ultimately come back to the head coach and the football department.

 

3. Despite the turnover in players we have indeed built an enduring culture and team loyalty. Summed up by our captain as "we thought we'd done enough."

[Murfy1]

Clearly I meant both... it would be a bit unfair to judge JVS if he only had one Ronaldo.

 

Insightful commentary again.

 

 

On the squad. The inherited squad of previous seasons isn't a run of the mill bad squad, it is a squad that finished equal last in the 2012/13 season, and dead last last season after Aloisi nailed the team to the bottom of the ladder, by only getting 4 out of 36 points after 12 rounds, and being 10 points adrift of 9th.

 

9 of this season's 21 salary cap players are Aloisi signings from these previous 2 nightmare Aloisi seasons.

 

And BTW the mentality/culture of the team wasn't discussed as a problem of the team and of the club until those 2 Aloisi seasons. Only after Aloisi's first season did players, like David Williams, say things like this about the team:

I think we were a bit complacent last year. We would travel to away games with an attitude that if we win, we win, and if we don't, we don't.

 

And only last season did a player like Gerhardt, who Aloisi himself signed, come out and say this (and even say it mid-season):

When you see John (van ‘t Schip) make more changes than Aloisi did in his whole one-and-a-half years coaching Melbourne Heart, it’s a problem,' the 28-year-old Liberia international told FourFourTwo. 'When you have players who may not have performed well but didn’t need to worry because they knew they’d play next week, it’s a problem.

 

And ditto these bombshells from the 442 article about the past 2 seasons:

"It was little things like accepting certain results when you shouldn't, and that was definitely the culture that was in this club", Murdocca said. "You can just tell with the new owners and the way the coaching staff have been talking that we're not happy with scraping a draw."

Heart foundation player Jason Hoffman says, unprompted, that the focus needs to be on the culture. "The biggest change for me is trying to get a cultural change, understanding what it means to be a City footballer and being part of the City Football Group and that family". [...] "it has to be a winning culture, and winning in the right manner, and playing the style of football that Manchester City try to play in the UK".

"Last year, that pride just didn't exist and that probably showed on the field which is a sad thing, but that's the reality and we hope that never happens with any other A-League club ever again".

 

So the cultural rot at the club only set in 2 seasons ago when Aloisi was appointed, and the imbalanced squads that Aloisi built full of poor players (illustrated by Visa players like Steven Gray and Michael Mifsud) combined poisonously with Aloisi's poor management and culture.

 

 

Which all means that the task this year would be tougher than building a new team: a broken team had to be fixed and worked with.

 

 

 

I'm not in the 'sack JVS camp' but neither am I in the 'retain JVS camp', I don't think that we have enough information yet. Clearly we have recruited an unbalanced squad, but without having knowledge of the CFG goals and timeline and the recruiting strategy of the franchise, it's difficult to understand whether this is ineptitude or a deliberate strategy to improve the squad over 2 seasons. Certainly JVS has been less tactically flexible this season, but flexibility depends on things like players on the pitch and avail;able on the bench, and also the game plan. I'm expecting an improvement in the second half of the season but if we finish any lower than 6th then his role really does need to be questioned along with the admin and other backroom staff. There are also risks that come from the long-term instability that results from constant turnover of players and support staff, it really is hard to build an enduring culture and team loyalty.

1. How much longer do you think we need? He had two seasons as Head Coach, and his latest stint started before Christmas 2013 - almost 11 months ago.

 

2. All these factors ultimately come back to the head coach and the football department.

 

3. Despite the turnover in players we have indeed built an enduring culture and team loyalty. Summed up by our captain as "we thought we'd done enough."

 

 

 

1. It clearly heavily influences supporters view of Van't Schip, his first 2 seasons at the club. But those 2 seasons don't matter at all when judging JVS this season, and that's certainly who CFG see things. Why? Because, as stated for the reasons above, there was a catastrophic previous 2 seasons between the end of JVS' first tenure and this season, which JVS wasn't responsible for and the anti-coach Aloisi must be blamed for. JVS didn't have a clean slate to work with, or even the standard situation a coach gets when taking over a team. He got a very broken team that finished last and equal last over the past 2 season, and was rightly pilloried by supporters as a failure during those 2 seasons.

 

You could fairly view a coach's previous seasons and CV when appointing him in the first place. But after JVS took over this last place club, the only fair question to ask is how much has this previously last place and broken team improved?

 

2. Yes, but history matters, and you can't just take something out of its historical context. Last season has heavily influenced this season, as shown by 7 of last season's players starting in last round's match. So yes the above factors do come back to the head coach and the football department, but they importantly come back to last season's head coach and football department to a very large degree.

 

3. I agree about the culture, as I point out above, and it's a sad state of affairs the club culture that supporters have had to witness. But it is hard to bring about cultural change, especially when you don't have a blank slate to work with. I am confident we'll see significant cultural change at this club, perhaps later this season or definitely next season. CFG will ensure that it happens, it is only a matter of time.

[Murfy1]

For the record I should say that I am not keen or interested in talking about the past. I want to talk about the future of this club, because the future is undoubtedly bright, as CFG will ensure that this club is successful, and it is only a matter of time before winning regularly is normal and the club is truly successful.

 

But I really dislike history and the facts being very skewered, and blame being disproportionately heaped on some instead of more deserving others. Such black and white readings of things get under my skin.

 

 

So I hope to talk more about things like upcoming matches, the form and future outlook of club players and prospective signings. Because CFG will ensure that this club is in good hands, and on the road to success, and each season they will minimize any shortcomings of the club and maximize the club's strengths and successes. I'm still pretty confident that this season, with Koren and Kennedy incoming, that Melbourne City will finish above its current position and respectably go into the finals. But even if you are not confident about this season, it must be realised that CFG will ensure that next season is significantly better than this season, and so on and so on until this club is winning silverware.

 

 

With the City Football Group the club is finally in good hands (a strange new feeling, I know), and success will come. So there's no need to fret about the past, as this club has a good future.

[AyeCee]

Just so I get in early here, what is the excuse of the day?

We can make this a weekly thing maybe, and once the entire playing roster has been replaced, all club staff have been sacked, we've paid the refs off, placed sanctions on the other clubs, and figured out how to control the weather, then we can allow ourselves to start questioning JvS.

I'd say that gives him another 2 years minimum, are the JvS apologists happy with that?

[kingofhearts]

Everyone knows that hes going to sneak us into the finals this season and keep his job for next season right?

JVS always does just enough to keep his job.

[silverdust]

Everyone knows that hes going to sneak us into the finals this season and keep his job for next season right?

JVS always does just enough to keep his job.

 

isnt that the aussie way? i thought he was dutch.

[NewConvert]

Actually there are many factors that will influence how a team performs. Last Season WP were travelling well but then got hit by a raft of injuries that cruelled their season. And I did ask the question as to how long should a coach have before they should be removed and the general reply was about two seasons. Some are choosing to count JVS' first stint as his two seasons, others are not. And of course we do not know what CFG think.

[mjake1234]

How do we get this culture, the pride and the want to win attitude. Firstly we need to have management that are seen to be committed (only one way to get this - bye bye) then we need to get the team desperate to give their all. The supporters are already there, maybe if we had some function, event or even a training session where the supporters can meet, talk to and formally and collectively show how they feel to the players, maybe, just maybe they will get that absolute passion as well.

[belaguttman]

The other thing that I'd add is that no coach should be removed until you are sure that you are going to replace them with someone better. The idea is not to punish the coach, it's to improve the weakest link. People are saying 'sack JVS' - who is available now that you would replace him with?

[belaguttman]

How do we get this culture, the pride and the want to win attitude. Firstly we need to have management that are seen to be committed (only one way to get this - bye bye) then we need to get the team desperate to give their all. The supporters are already there, maybe if we had some function, event or even a training session where the supporters can meet, talk to and formally and collectively show how they feel to the players, maybe, just maybe they will get that absolute passion as well.

Maybe we just need to remind them each game day that their performance isn't good enough and not to take our support for granted.

[kingofhearts]

Borrowed time you are on mate.

outcoached again, fucking disgrace

[HeartFc]

Tick tock

[KSK_47]

Mandatory weekly bump

[Tony999]

Anyone know any ISIS members we can introduce JVS to?

[MHFCRC]

I seriously have no idea how anyone can stand up for this bloke? we aren't losing okaying entertaining football, it's pure shit. Boring fucking shit football and we aren't even getting results. get him out of here

[belaguttman]

What concerns me is that I see no progression in this team.

[interstatefan]

Surely after tonight, there's no improvement and I can never work out his substitution choices and the time in which he brings them on.

[Cityamatic]

Yeah, he has to go. The last few posts have hit the nail on the head - no progression, garbage football and out-coached week in week out

 

Surely this is one area where CFG's $$$ and network can do us some good 

[Cinnamon]

They are interviewing for the Yokohama position so I imagine they'd have a pretty healthy list of applicants atm

[Murfy1]

It would be overlooking massive weaknesses at the club if only the coach was changed. In particular, John Didulica (who has been around fully for all of the club's poor 4 seasons and counting), Scott Munn (ditto, has been the chief primarily responsible for the club over its whole existence) and a number of players, in particular deadwood like Germano and Kalmar, and all of the club's 'defenders' and 'goalkeepers'.

 

 

Pressure should be building on Van't Schip, I fully agree about that. As pressure should be building on just about everyone at the club. The team must play better, and it must start collecting more points so it can move up the ladder, and not stand still or fall down it. And the absence of Koren and Kennedy is a cop out: all of the current personnel at the club need to start pulling their weight ASAP.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Murfy1

[belaguttman]

It would be overlooking massive weaknesses at the club if only the coach was changed. In particular, John Didulica (who has been around fully for all of the club's poor 4 seasons and counting), Scott Munn (ditto, has been the chief primarily responsible for the club over its whole existence) and a number of players, in particular deadwood like Germano and Kalmar, and all of the club's 'defenders' and 'goalkeepers'.

 

 

Pressure should be building on Van't Schip, I fully agree about that. As pressure should be building on just about everyone at the club. The team must play better, and it must start collecting more points so it can move up the ladder, and not stand still or fall down it. And the absence of Koren and Kennedy is a cop out: all of the current personnel at the club need to start pulling their weight ASAP.

Agree but there's no point replacing JVS and Didulica unless their replacement is the right person. We don't need a 'Mehmet for Moe Magilton' saga.

Edited November 22, 2014 by belaguttman

[Thrillhouse]

i just want a manager that isn't tanned and named john, is that too much to ask for?

[Heart of Melbourne]

Why don't they put Palataides for the rest of the season and hire a world class manager for next season. Just got home and have a massive headache after that performance. Oh and coping abuse from victory mates. Just great. Thanks CFG

[raw10]

It wouldn't be the first time he got the sack, Chivas de Guadalajara sacked him only after 6 months at the helm.

 

Now let's see whether CFG can be as ruthless!!

[Murfy1]

It wouldn't be the first time he got the sack, Chivas de Guadalajara sacked him only after 6 months at the helm.

 

If you look at context though, Chivas have had 4 coaches this year (5 if you count an interim coach), so there's no real surprise that JVS only had several months at Chivas. Their owner is known for being pretty nuts. If anything, by comparison JVS had a good run at Chivas, finishing 8th out of 18 teams and getting the team into the playoffs. The season after JVS left the team finished 16th, this season Chivas is currently 15th after 17 games.

[rass]

It would be overlooking massive weaknesses at the club if only the coach was changed. In particular, John Didulica (who has been around fully for all of the club's poor 4 seasons and counting), Scott Munn (ditto, has been the chief primarily responsible for the club over its whole existence) and a number of players, in particular deadwood like Germano and Kalmar, and all of the club's 'defenders' and 'goalkeepers'.

Pressure should be building on Van't Schip, I fully agree about that. As pressure should be building on just about everyone at the club. The team must play better, and it must start collecting more points so it can move up the ladder, and not stand still or fall down it. And the absence of Koren and Kennedy is a cop out: all of the current personnel at the club need to start pulling their weight ASAP.

Unfortunately Koren and Kennedy being unavailable at the moment are his saviours.

As woeful as the back half are, the inability to fashion anything creative in attack with all that possession is killing us.

Until they play, he'll stay... and that's so sad at the moment because it is so easy to coach against us. Just sit back and patiently wait to counter... and hope you can defend our set pieces.

So obvious to me tonight how badly we need a #10 who can unlock these defences, because we cant rely on Mooy's killer balls every week. I really hope Koren is the answer... because I think jvs and half the club arent.

Edited November 22, 2014 by rass

[Melburnian]

Undefendable. He has to go now.

There is three common people at the club in key management positions from the start and they have inflicted the club of this horrendous culture.

All three must go. Munn, Didulica and Van Schip. This is not the Heart.

[interstatefan]

JVS should resign himself if he has any heart

[yelawolf]

can anyone confirm that Dragan Stojkovic is being lined up as a potential mid season replacement?

[strider]

can anyone confirm that Dragan Stojkovic is being lined up as a potential mid season replacement?

I hope so. Nothing cooler than having a serbian dragon for a manager

[cadete]

FFS its days like this I ask myself why did I randomly chose the Red team and not the Blue team...

I mean there was more to it than that that in choosing Heart over Victory but in this Franchise Football League I won't kid myself and say there wasn't that much more behind it.

As even Muscat shows he can coach and we continue to lose after being brought by literally a fucken King... I can't help but feeling cursed like fucken Jobe in the Old Testament. (And we don't even wear red anymore).

[Jovan]

Time for Piksi.