Melbourne Heart FC buy out - Man City, Melbourne City FC, etc.

[Deeming]

Man City/CFG took our name away and took our colours away but at least they were nice enough to leave our form with us.

[carlings]

Where are these Man City U20's guns we can steal on loan? Surely they would enjoy plaing some first team footy over here?

[jw1739]

Where are these Man City U20's guns we can steal on loan? Surely they would enjoy plaing some first team footy over here?

You can have a look at the ManC Elite Development Squad here: http://www.mcfc.com/Teams/EDS

 

Given our current GK woes, have a look at this young Norwegian keeper: http://www.mcfc.com/Teams/EDS/Goalkeepers/Eirik-Holmen-Johansen. WTF would you re-sign Velaphi when you could have this fellow?

 

When the takeover occurred, one of the benefits identified right from the start by the media as well as on here was the prospect of getting one or two of these young lads over here each season. I can't believe that we are so close to the salary cap limitations that we couldn't do just that.

 

George Evans played two matches for us as a triallist during the Manchester visit: http://www.mcfc.com/Teams/EDS/Midfielders/George-Evans. Why did we do that if there was no genuine interest from both parties?

 

I don't think we're taking advantage of being part of CFG.

[Murfy1]

It wouldn't surprise me if the new loan rules that the FFA implemented this season undermined plans that CFG had to get players loaned to Melbourne City.

 

The new loan rules require every cent that a player gets paid to count towards the salary cap. Previously just a paltry amount counted towards the cap, such as the fee that an A-League club was prepared to pay to secure a player on a loan deal, which is why victory could sign both Rogic (who earns a good amount of money at Celtic) and Troisi (owned by Atalanta & Juventus, and surely getting very good money) last season.

 

 

I think the previous rules could very much explain why David Villa is technically on a mere $60,000 salary with NYCFC: so under the old rules Villa could have been loaned to Melbourne City, with his $60,000 salary and the token loan fee that Melbourne City would have paid to NYCFC being able to fit under the salary cap, thus allowing both David Villa and Frank Lampard to come to Melbourne City on loan (reportedly a done deal).

However, the new loan rules that the FFA just brought about a few months ago would have made Villa's loan stint against the rules, as the millions of other dollars that Villa gets would also suddenly count towards a loan deal. So Lampard's loan to Melbourne City got scuppered, and only Villa came on loan to the club, utilising the guest player deal.

 

I'm sure that under the old loan rules that Manchester City youth players could probably have somehow been fit into loan deals to Melbourne City. And maybe that was the plan, with those players trialling with the club around early July. But around mid-August it seemingly came to the fore that the FFA had changed the loan rules, which would explain why Lampard's loan move and Manchester triallists seemed to fall apart around then. The timeline fits.

 

 

Overall though I agree that it doesn't look like Melbourne City is taking complete advantage of all the opportunities that CFG provides, but in the particular instance of player loans I think Australia's highly regulated football environment put the kibosh on that.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Murfy1

[jw1739]

OK, I said loan. But why not a transfer?

[bt50]

OK, I said loan. But why not a transfer?

I'd imagine that would be to do with wages. At the end of the day we still need to be able to sign the player. If they are any good over there they'd prob still be earning enough to take a decent hit out of our salary cap. Unless you were back ending deals, which would be a risky move to take on a kid, I doubt a young player is going to want to come here on 60k a year when they could be earning 100,200,300k elsewhere

[NewConvert]

Can the club persuade Germano to retire? that would free up a visa spot. And yes I do realise that we need more than three players to lift this rabble (spare visa, Germano's visa and Oz marquee) but it would be a start.

[Falastur]

Where are these Man City U20's guns we can steal on loan? Surely they would enjoy plaing some first team footy over here?

 

I was under the impression that the rule the FFA touted to stop Lampard coming to Melbourne also stops Melbourne City signing anyone else on loan, does it not? In which case, the earliest time you could loan an EDS player would be next season, and only at the expense of your guest spot. I hope that's wrong, but that's how I read the story about the FFA banning the Lampard loan.

[Tonyboozeadams]

We can loan anyone we want. Just have to count their whole wage into the salary cap.

Not just what melbourne are paying them

Edited November 3, 2014 by Tonyboozeadams

[Dylan]

I am pretty sure you cant have a Visa player under 23.  

[Tonyboozeadams]

I am pretty sure you cant have a Visa player under 23.

I thought it was 20

[Falastur]

We can loan anyone we want. Just have to count their whole wage into the salary cap.

Not just what melbourne are paying them

 

Fair enough. Well, if that's the rule then this may be the reason why no EDS players are coming in then - most of them earn in a couple of months what a capped player does in a year.

[Dylan]

 

I am pretty sure you cant have a Visa player under 23.

I thought it was 20

 

 

It probably is 20 I just knew it was at young age. 

[Dylan]

 

We can loan anyone we want. Just have to count their whole wage into the salary cap.

Not just what melbourne are paying them

 

Fair enough. Well, if that's the rule then this may be the reason why no EDS players are coming in then - most of them earn in a couple of months what a capped player does in a year.

 

 

I dont think money matters much to young players, especially around the 18-19 mark its probably all about playing in big leagues for big clubs.

[Shahanga]

 

I am pretty sure you cant have a Visa player under 23.

I thought it was 20

 

So did I.

 

Stupid rule though.  It means we couldn't sign Sterling as a marquee because he's too young?  

 

Insane.

 

All they needed to do was say a visa player can't count as one of your under 20s or whatever it is.  

[Dylan]

 

 

I am pretty sure you cant have a Visa player under 23.

I thought it was 20

 

So did I.

 

Stupid rule though.  It means we couldn't sign Sterling as a marquee because he's too young?  

 

Insane.

 

All they needed to do was say a visa player can't count as one of your under 20s or whatever it is.  

 

 

Its all to do with giving 'maximum opportunities to local young players'

[jw1739]

 

Where are these Man City U20's guns we can steal on loan? Surely they would enjoy plaing some first team footy over here?

 

I was under the impression that the rule the FFA touted to stop Lampard coming to Melbourne also stops Melbourne City signing anyone else on loan, does it not? In which case, the earliest time you could loan an EDS player would be next season, and only at the expense of your guest spot. I hope that's wrong, but that's how I read the story about the FFA banning the Lampard loan.

 

 

We can loan anyone we want. Just have to count their whole wage into the salary cap.

Not just what melbourne are paying them

We can have anyone we want as a guest or loaned player - we just have to abide by the salary cap and other rules. If we are talking about guest player, one could certainly come and play 10 non-consecutive matches for us, be outside the visa players quota, and be outside the salary cap. We are limited, however, to one guest player per season, and so we cannot have another guest player for this current season if indeed Villa was a guest. If we are talking about a loan player then we can specify the loan period, but the player sits within the squad numbers cap, will count to the visa quota if he is a visa player, and his total remuneration whilst on loan to us must sit inside the salary cap.

 

In terms of one of Manchester City EDS squad possibly coming on loan, we have a visa place open, so the only question is whether there is sufficient left in the salary cap to accommodate his wages for a meaningful loan period. Falastur can probably give us an idea of what various EDS players are being paid.

 

I'm sure that CFG will be on top of this as soon as they can. The key factor for me is getting the numpties at Latrobe HQ under control so that they don't fill up the squad with deadwood on extended contracts. It's too painful to go though the squad again and list who these are - we all know who they are and there's far too many of them.

[Torn Asunder]

It's seems CFG's plans to add to our squad through clever loan arrangements have been well & truly scuttled by FFA. They now know that there is no quick fix or playing the system through loan / guest arrangements.

A former board member posted this the day before we played Adelaide;

"Just had Brekkie With @BrianMarwood_ : illuminating. The club is in GREAT hands, short termism an anathema for City. Youth a huge focus."

How and when will youth be a focus?

Short termism ...? What does this even mean especially when you consider the likes of Villa & Duff & even Koren.

Out of our signings, the only 2 that fit into the long term is Mooy & Paartalu.

What is the club planning to build our swuad, and how will we get the best youth & keep them?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Torn Asunder

[belaguttman]

given the absence of vision from the old board, anyone else would look visionary in comparison

[drewmelbcity]

The ffa have screwed us royally but if city is good at one thing it is business. Cfg will win out in the end wait and see.

[Jestr]

given the absence of vision from the old board, anyone else would look visionary in comparison

The problem is they truly believe everything is falling in place and heading in the right direction.

One thing I wound love you hear is 1 gram of honest self reflection and self criticism.

Are they honestly so so out of touch with reality??

[jw1739]

 

 

I am pretty sure you cant have a Visa player under 23.

I thought it was 20

 

So did I.

 

Stupid rule though.  It means we couldn't sign Sterling as a marquee because he's too young?  

 

Insane.

 

All they needed to do was say a visa player can't count as one of your under 20s or whatever it is.  

 

I'd like to see where this is stated. What I can see is that players 17 years old and younger cannot move internationally for the purposes of playing football unless they their parents can show that they have moved to the new country (in our case Australia) for reasons other than football (different rules apply for refugees).

Once a player turns 18 he is regarded as a senior player, and I cannot see that the national registration rules have any restriction on where that player can go.

[Tonyboozeadams]

It's seems CFG's plans to add to our squad through clever loan arrangements have been well & truly scuttled by FFA. They now know that there is no quick fix or playing the system through loan / guest arrangements.

A former board member posted this the day before we played Adelaide;

"Just had Brekkie With @BrianMarwood_ : illuminating. The club is in GREAT hands, short termism an anathema for City. Youth a huge focus."

How and when will youth be a focus?

Short termism ...? What does this even mean especially when you consider the likes of Villa & Duff & even Koren.

Out of our signings, the only 2 that fit into the long term is Mooy & Paartalu.

What is the club planning to build our swuad, and how will we get the best youth & keep them?

And Mooy was signed by heart

[CityHeart]

could mean a whole range of things, could mean nothing.

 

Firstly - clever loan arrangements would and could have only been a short-term thing. Of course any league would crackdown if a club exploited a cap like this. The easy tweak going forward, and could happen as I think they are surprised as to the standard of this league - is to perhaps gets the good young kids loaned to us for a full season instead of short-term stints like Villa.

 

Short termism being an anathema for us could just mean that they arent going to freak out due to short-term results. Perhaps the coaching staff have been directed to play a certain way/style, and result wont change this. 

Getting this ingrained will mean it is relatively easy to replace cogs with other, better cogs, and the system takes off. The system is the key - the players are the easier part believe it or not.

 

Man City will never have the best defence in the world - but they will look to play good football and beat everyone they come up against.

[cadete]

Can the club persuade Germano to retire? that would free up a visa spot. And yes I do realise that we need more than three players to lift this rabble (spare visa, Germano's visa and Oz marquee) but it would be a start.

I reckon if a few of us rock up to training in Army Fatigues and Backpacks... he might pack up and retire.

[jw1739]

I think FFA panicked over the loaned players issue. It's true that Aziz Behich had been on loan to us from Bursaspor, (purportedly for nothing, with his wages being fully paid by the Turkish club), but he was the first and only player on loan to Heart. Other clubs had been using loaned players, not us. It was probably the media speculation over Lampard and EDS players that spooked FFA into tightening the rules rather than anything that CFG/Manchester City/Melbourne City stated their intent to do.

[Tesla]

Far from convinced that your average Man City EDS player is good enough to take up a visa spot in the A-League.

The A-league would be higher standard, maybe even a lot higher.

It would literally have to be the top 1 or 2, and those guys arent going to want to come to Australia.

We can do better with our visa spots, please lets not get blinded by youth as always.

There are plenty of quality players in developing regions that would come here on the cheap. How about we utilise the CFG's scouting network and find some of these guys.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Tesla

[Kiro Kompiro]

I think FFA panicked over the loaned players issue. It's true that Aziz Behich had been on loan to us from Bursaspor, (purportedly for nothing, with his wages being fully paid by the Turkish club), but he was the first and only player on loan to Heart. Other clubs had been using loaned players, not us. It was probably the media speculation over Lampard and EDS players that spooked FFA into tightening the rules rather than anything that CFG/Manchester City/Melbourne City stated their intent to do.

 

Troisi and Rogic both in the same season always seemed dodgy.

 

Look the reality was that the loans we were getting (Lampard and Villa) were so much better than anything else that had ever been done it made the FFA panic as they realised that Man City could undermine the integrity of what is supposed to be a salary-capped league

[Red or Dead]

Can the club persuade Germano to retire? that would free up a visa spot. And yes I do realise that we need more than three players to lift this rabble (spare visa, Germano's visa and Oz marquee) but it would be a start.

They don't have to convince him to retire, just pay him out the rest of his contract.

 

Plus, it's four players when you include Koren...four quality players should definitely make a difference!

[Tonyboozeadams]

Far from convinced that your average Man City EDS player is good enough to take up a visa spot in the A-League.

The A-league would be higher standard, maybe even a lot higher.

It would literally have to be the top 1 or 2, and those guys arent going to want to come to Australia.

We can do better with our visa spots, please lets not get blinded by youth as always.

There are plenty of quality players in developing regions that would come here on the cheap. How about we utilise the CFG's scouting network and find some of these guys.

No way is the a-league at a higher standard than the epl youth league. Have you watched any games?

[NewConvert]

With my limited observation of European football, if a 17 year old is good enough to play in the firsts, he plays in the firsts. If the player is 20 and playing in the youth league then he is not good enough to bump an existing firsts player. Given that some top clubs play three matches in a week, it is obvious that they rotate their players, so if a 20 year old player can't make their way into the firsts, then the club will either move him on at season's en or persevere for another season. Given the number of players that aspire to play in the EPL I imagine said 20 year old would be feeling the pressure as well. So I think that t may be possible to have someone who is about 20 and in the youth league who would be better than Ramsay or Garrucio at LB.

As to whether the EPL youth league is better than the A-League, we'll never know until they play against A-League side. Given Melb City's current form, I expect the youth team to kick an AFL like score.

[Tesla]

So I think that t may be possible to have someone who is about 20 and in the youth league who would be better than Ramsay or Garrucio at LB.

There probably is, but do we use a visa spot on 'better than Ramsay' or do we want a LB on a visa that will be one of the key players in the team?

What I said was there are probably only 1 or 2 players in a EPL youth league team that are right now of the quality to be a Visa player in the A-League.

 

Far from convinced that your average Man City EDS player is good enough to take up a visa spot in the A-League.

The A-league would be higher standard, maybe even a lot higher.

It would literally have to be the top 1 or 2, and those guys arent going to want to come to Australia.

We can do better with our visa spots, please lets not get blinded by youth as always.

There are plenty of quality players in developing regions that would come here on the cheap. How about we utilise the CFG's scouting network and find some of these guys.

No way is the a-league at a higher standard than the epl youth league. Have you watched any games?

Look at the countries where B teams play in the lower divisions. Usually the better ones will be in the 3rd division. So I dont think it's ridiculous to think that the Reserves teams of better EPL clubs wouldn't be better than League One standard. Factor in that, with B teams, they will keep better quality youngsters in the team rather than loaning them out like a Reserves team would (as they play competitive games in a B team), and that B teams sometimes sign experienced players to bolster their team and save them from relegation / win them promotion, I think it's safe to say that a B team in Spain/Germany is going to be a lot closer in terms of quality to the level of the first team than an EPL reserves team will be to it's first team. And it's not even really a reserve team anymore, it's a youth team (very little difference in reality but worth mentioning). I think it's pretty safe to say that the average EPL youth team is at about League Two level, and the loans they make reflect this. Yeah, some better players end up even in the Championship, as well as a lot in League one, but it would usually be the better players going out on loan. IMO, the A-League is at least League One quality on average, but there is also a large gap between the quality of players in the A-League. Guys like Jeremy Walker end up in Conference South while someone like Spiranovic could play in a lower team in the Premier League.

You also can look at where most Premier League youth players end up when they're fully developed, the vast majority in the lower leagues, with maybe only 1 or 2 on average from each squad ever reaching Premier League level, these are the same 1 or 2 that would be good enough to be a visa player in the A-league at a young age. And they won't want to come here as they're heading for big things.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Tesla

[HEARTinator]

I think FFA panicked over the loaned players issue. It's true that Aziz Behich had been on loan to us from Bursaspor, (purportedly for nothing, with his wages being fully paid by the Turkish club), but he was the first and only player on loan to Heart. Other clubs had been using loaned players, not us. It was probably the media speculation over Lampard and EDS players that spooked FFA into tightening the rules rather than anything that CFG/Manchester City/Melbourne City stated their intent to do.

 

Troisi and Rogic both in the same season always seemed dodgy.

 

Look the reality was that the loans we were getting (Lampard and Villa) were so much better than anything else that had ever been done it made the FFA panic as they realised that Man City could undermine the integrity of what is supposed to be a salary-capped league Exactly. FFA were happy to have CFG invest in the HAL but concerned that they might exploit the loan player rule in a way that other HAL clubs couldn't - including their beloved SFC and WSW.

[markn]

I think FFA panicked over the loaned players issue. It's true that Aziz Behich had been on loan to us from Bursaspor, (purportedly for nothing, with his wages being fully paid by the Turkish club), but he was the first and only player on loan to Heart. Other clubs had been using loaned players, not us. It was probably the media speculation over Lampard and EDS players that spooked FFA into tightening the rules rather than anything that CFG/Manchester City/Melbourne City stated their intent to do.

 

Correct me if i am wrong but the loan rule was changed - in part - as a result on Victory using it to sign Troisi AND Rogic.

 

For this season, we would be doing the same. ie Lampard and Villa.  However this rule was changed. Victory were the last beneficiary of this rule.

 

Last season, it seemed odd that Victory could sign such players and still be under the salary cap - but they did.  

Edited November 5, 2014 by markn

[n i k o]

It's an interesting talking point. What would be also interesting to know is had their beloved sydney fc been bought out would they have been so quick to make the change. Or had victory been able to bring in lampard and villa would they have stood in the way. During last season I don't remember any talk about changing the loan conditions, I'm pretty sure this only began once the talk of lampard coming here started.

[markn]

It's an interesting talking point. What would be also interesting to know is had their beloved sydney fc been bought out would they have been so quick to make the change. Or had victory been able to bring in lampard and villa would they have stood in the way. During last season I don't remember any talk about changing the loan conditions, I'm pretty sure this only began once the talk of lampard coming here started.

 

I agree. We have to protect the small clubs like CCM and Newcastle - but why if its good for one, is it not good for the other?

[Tonyboozeadams]

I think FFA panicked over the loaned players issue. It's true that Aziz Behich had been on loan to us from Bursaspor, (purportedly for nothing, with his wages being fully paid by the Turkish club), but he was the first and only player on loan to Heart. Other clubs had been using loaned players, not us. It was probably the media speculation over Lampard and EDS players that spooked FFA into tightening the rules rather than anything that CFG/Manchester City/Melbourne City stated their intent to do.

Correct me if i am wrong but the loan rule was changed - in part - as a result on Victory using it to sign Troisi AND Rogic.

For this season, we would be doing the same. ie Lampard and Villa. However this rule was changed. Victory were the last beneficiary of this rule.

Last season, it seemed odd that Victory could sign such players and still be under the salary cap - but they did.

I got the feeling that the Ffa mentioned rogic and troisi so it didn't look like they were targeting the Lampard deal

[n i k o]

Well of course they'll mention the rogic/troisi deal. Makes it look like a legitimate decision and not one that targeting man city. The question is if man city hadn't come in would they have still changed it in such a hurry?

[jw1739]

My view is that it was all done in haste. It was a one-off anyway, as far as players going to NYC in the MLS are concerned, and wouldn't have happened in future seasons. What harm would there have been in having Villa and Lampard playing together for us for three months? Would have lifted us out of the doldrums, brought in the fans everywhere we played, and lifted the league. We wouldn't necessarily have won the league, and what harm would it have done even if we did?

 

FFA could have taken their time and reviewed the whole situation with respect to guest, loan and visa players over this current season, and made their decisions to take effect from 2015-16.

 

It was, IMO, an opportunity to grow the league thrown away based on a misguided fear.

Edited November 6, 2014 by jw1739

[Kiro Kompiro]

 

I think FFA panicked over the loaned players issue. It's true that Aziz Behich had been on loan to us from Bursaspor, (purportedly for nothing, with his wages being fully paid by the Turkish club), but he was the first and only player on loan to Heart. Other clubs had been using loaned players, not us. It was probably the media speculation over Lampard and EDS players that spooked FFA into tightening the rules rather than anything that CFG/Manchester City/Melbourne City stated their intent to do.

 

Correct me if i am wrong but the loan rule was changed - in part - as a result on Victory using it to sign Troisi AND Rogic.

 

For this season, we would be doing the same. ie Lampard and Villa.  However this rule was changed. Victory were the last beneficiary of this rule.

 

Last season, it seemed odd that Victory could sign such players and still be under the salary cap - but they did.  

 

 

There's other dodgy shit they've done.  

 

For example, buying Allsop only to terminate his contact "by mutual consent" to get someone else that Postecoglou wanted.  

 

Then there was that VISA player Bru (?) they froze out and made him train on his own, until he too terminated his contract early so that they get someone else.