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The Coronavirus Thread (We nearly didn't see City in the 2021 Grand Final)


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15 minutes ago, kingofhearts said:

What do people think of the idea of mandatory vaccines/vaccine passports?

Seems like it's only a matter of time before both become mandatory, but I couldn't be more strongly against it.

People should have the right to choose what goes into their body, and I believe by mandating this, it begins a slippery slope of other liberties that the government could infringe upon.

It's perfectly reasonable. You say that you have  "right" to choose what goes into your body, but you do not have the "right" to act in a manner that could or will inflict harm on others. Will you expect the same health care as others even though you refuse to be vaccinated? What else do you wish to opt-out from but still expect the same care, help and privileges as those who opt-in? Basically you need to decide whether you wish to continue as a member of a civilised society or not.

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1 hour ago, kingofhearts said:

What do people think of the idea of mandatory vaccines/vaccine passports?

Seems like it's only a matter of time before both become mandatory, but I couldn't be more strongly against it.

People should have the right to choose what goes into their body, and I believe by mandating this, it begins a slippery slope of other liberties that the government could infringe upon.

It’s more authoritarian madness.

1. It may be counter productive. “Why are they forcing me, there must be something wrong” logic

2. it makes no sense, as the only person being vaccinated protects is you, as unlike other conditions, this one can and will be spread by the vaccinated.

(the only argument would be is that the state government, having underfunded the hospitals both before and during this pandemic, need to do this as they are panicking to avoid their incompetency being exposed)

For what it’s worth I think if we remove lockdowns fear of Covid will achieve just as much vaccination as coercion, without the horrific impact on our liberal traditions.

Coercion is the refuge of the incompetent.

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25 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

2. it makes no sense, as the only person being vaccinated protects is you, as unlike other conditions, this one can and will be spread by the vaccinated.

Being vaccinated has an enormous impact on how sick you get when you are infected, and therefore the viral load you are carrying, and therefore the degree to which you infect others.

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32 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Being vaccinated has an enormous impact on how sick you get when you are infected, and therefore the viral load you are carrying, and therefore the degree to which you infect others.

Being vaccinated reduces your risk of infecting others by 50%. If others are also vaccinated the risk drops to 25%. That, along with wearing a mask, brings the R nought below 1 and the pandemic starts to shrink

Edited by belaguttman
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5 hours ago, belaguttman said:

If anyone has the time or interest, there's an interesting long-form interview about the epidemiology of the pandemic on the Uncommon Sense program on 3RRR. You can stream it from their On Demand section. The TL:DR is that opening up at 70% of the eligible Australians target means that we will have a pandemic amongst the  9 million unvaccinated Australians.

30,000 daily cases. No politicians are talking about this - these figures are in the modelling.

Just hope that you don't need any non-Covid related health care between now and Xmas! It looks at how the Doherty Report has been manipulated to suit political agendas (against the wishes of the Doherty Institute) and how the Government has resisted efforts to re-run the modelling with up-to-date modelling assumptions.

Please, get vaccinated!

Starts around 23 minutes on the broadcast.

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5 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

What do people think of the idea of mandatory vaccines/vaccine passports?

Seems like it's only a matter of time before both become mandatory, but I couldn't be more strongly against it.

People should have the right to choose what goes into their body, and I believe by mandating this, it begins a slippery slope of other liberties that the government could infringe upon.

Aside from the health issues as outlined by @belaguttman and @jw1739 it is a complicated issue. Let's start with the situation prior to covid. Employers and governments could mandate that you get vaccinated prior to undertaking an activity - for example if you want to travel to a region infested with yellow fever the government did mandate that you get vaccinated (I know I had to be vaccinated against yellow fever and a host of other stuff), indeed up to the 80s international travel required that you be vaccinated before embarking on a plane and you had to show proof that you were. On the flip side, the government could prohibit you from undertaking activities if you had consumed stuff that was prohibited. So if you work in safety critical areas you had to be 0.00 alcohol, no illicit substances, and in the event that you have heart issues you may not be allowed to work at all. So what would have happened if you violated the laws and regulations pre-covid? well if someone got sick/injured, you were solely responsible - not your employer, not the government. Insurance companies may not have to pay compensation and the legal process could fine you or even jail you. The choice and consequences were yours. And yes, you bore the consequences - two blocks away from mum's place lives a bloke who crushed his foot whilst under the influence. His medical bills, his pain, his penury. And if you had complied with the laws, how did you prove it? Medical certificates, work permits, etc. In effect passports.

So should passports be mandatory? This is really a question for insurance companies. By law employers have to provide a safe working environment for their employees and customers. Assume an unvaccinated person gives Covid to a colleague or customer causing financial losses, pain and emotional toll, and a reduced life expectancy. The colleague/customer sue the company , who in turn, claim insurance and the insurance refuses to pay because the employer has not provided a safe working environment?

So the libertarian in me says, that private homes, businesses and governments can demand proof that you have taken all available measures to ensure that you do not contaminate or impact others. So if Qantas says you cannot board without proof of vaccination then they can do so. If Coles demands the same if you want to enter their premises, then they can. It is their business and they have to minimise the risk. You are free not to have the vaccine and not to have a passport BUT then you cannot sue anyone because they refuse to provide you with services and products.

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On 07/09/2021 at 1:53 PM, Shahanga said:

. it makes no sense, as the only person being vaccinated protects is you, as unlike other conditions, this one can and will be spread by the vaccinated.

Vaccination reduced your risk of becoming infected by 50%. If you come home infected and your partner is also vaccinated, the risk of you both becoming infected is 25%. Without a vaccination, everyone in your household will become infected. Vaccination does have some benefit for the vaccinated individual who, in tern, carries a very small degree of personal risk. Vaccination also protects everyone else as it's likely to break the chain of transmission and reduce the reproduction number below 1. In that way it also protects the unvaccinated, however they are happy to take the benefit but  aren't prepared to take the risk. 

The chance of passing on an infection if everyone is vaccinated and masks is very very small. End of pandemic.

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2 hours ago, belaguttman said:

The chance of passing on an infection if everyone is vaccinated and masks is very very small. End of pandemic.

Israel is getting an average of 7500 cases per day with around 80% of the adult population vaccinated. Last week that had increased to a rolling average of 9300 per day. Last Wednesday had 11,250. That's also the record for the highest seven day average in the whole world per million. With vaccination numbers continuing to rise but infection growing, can you explain your opinion in relation to this? 

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24 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Israel is getting an average of 7500 cases per day with around 80% of the adult population vaccinated. Last week that had increased to a rolling average of 9300 per day. Last Wednesday had 11,250. That's also the record for the highest seven day average in the whole world per million. With vaccination numbers continuing to rise but infection growing, can you explain your opinion in relation to this? 

What is the death rate, hospitalization numbers. Case numbers are now was less significant. 

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1 hour ago, n i k o said:

Israel is getting an average of 7500 cases per day with around 80% of the adult population vaccinated. Last week that had increased to a rolling average of 9300 per day. Last Wednesday had 11,250. That's also the record for the highest seven day average in the whole world per million. With vaccination numbers continuing to rise but infection growing, can you explain your opinion in relation to this? 

80% of the adult population (16years+) in Australia is actually 64% of the total population including all ages. Meaning 36% is non-vaccinated, equivalent to 9.2 million people. Meaning one in three people is not vaccinated. The infectivity of the Delta mutation is such that this is enough to get the infections and associated hospitalisations and deaths that our governments now appear to be planning for (whilst hoping that we don't get them).

Israel's population is around 9m, ours 26m (round figures). You can see why the modelling here is predicting the numbers that it is (bearing in mind all the caveats on modelling and whatever differences in demographics there are between the two countries).

This is really why some of the States are now questioning the "national plan" that they are supposed to have signed up to. From where we are now, do we really want to do this - 30,000 to 40,000 infections per day (even if we want to put our heads in the sand and not count them, they will still be there) with associated hospitalisations and deaths, and choking our health services at the same time?

People are entitled to have different views on this, just as they are on mandatory vaccination documents, lockdowns, etc. etc., but at the moment people like us below the Executive level aren't even being given the respect to allow us a voice in the conversation that ought to be being held.

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1 hour ago, Jovan said:

What is the death rate, hospitalization numbers. Case numbers are now was less significant. 

Thats true, I was only responding to bella regarding case numbers.

I found the following information, maybe someone can refute the following...

As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government.

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6 hours ago, n i k o said:

Thats true, I was only responding to bella regarding case numbers.

I found the following information, maybe someone can refute the following...

As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government.

Agree, my point was more that case numbers now aren't as important a metric as it was last year.

As JW has put it which I also agree, the new strategy or whatever you call it will see huge numbers but hopefully fewer deaths.

I also agree with JW there will still be a huge percentage of unvaccinated mainly children which in raw numbers seems foolish to open up fully. But what I think they are banking on is that so far it seems that children are less likely to contract and infect and therefore have a level of natural immunity, but like everything in this current clusterfuck things change daily, and what may be true today is proven wrong tomorrow. 

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3 hours ago, Jovan said:

Agree, my point was more that case numbers now aren't as important a metric as it was last year.

As JW has put it which I also agree, the new strategy or whatever you call it will see huge numbers but hopefully fewer deaths.

I also agree with JW there will still be a huge percentage of unvaccinated mainly children which in raw numbers seems foolish to open up fully. But what I think they are banking on is that so far it seems that children are less likely to contract and infect and therefore have a level of natural immunity, but like everything in this current clusterfuck things change daily, and what may be true today is proven wrong tomorrow. 

No doubt we will see numbers grow, certainly agree with that. Funny, through my previous line of work kids were always the worst spreaders of colds etc. Damn near impossible to leave a school after working there without some sickness. 

Just a note on death rates, and correct me if I'm wrong, but last year was a successful year for Australians, seeing just under 30,000 less deaths throughout the year than in 2019. I think we've all forgotten that people die from  things other than covid as well. I think the stat going around is about 99.7% of other causes or something to that extent.  

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33 minutes ago, n i k o said:

No doubt we will see numbers grow, certainly agree with that. Funny, through my previous line of work kids were always the worst spreaders of colds etc. Damn near impossible to leave a school after working there without some sickness. 

Just a note on death rates, and correct me if I'm wrong, but last year was a successful year for Australians, seeing just under 30,000 less deaths throughout the year than in 2019. I think we've all forgotten that people die from  things other than covid as well. I think the stat going around is about 99.7% of other causes or something to that extent.  

Yes, the real stat we should be looking at is the excess death rate in countries. For a while there anti-vaxxers were spreading disinformation that whatever people were dying from, Covid19 was added to cause of death in order to inflate figures. If that was true and Covid19 wasn't killing people then the excess death rate would have remained statistically average. It increased.

There's also been disinformation that the suicide rate has soared, It hasn't, although the rate of mental distress and illness has increased

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@n i k o The lead article on ABC News on my 'phone this morning is about the Israel situation. Various public health measures have had to be re-introduced to try to control whatever "wave" they're up to now.

So there is not going to be a single magic bullet to get us out of this. We do need to push on with initial vaccinations to reduce the number of serious infections and deaths, we are likely to be up for booster doses rather like many people front up for their "flu shot" every year, and we need to be prepared for on-going public health measures.

On that last note I'm uncomfortable with the concept of different privileges for vaccinated and non-vaccinated people, and, while I think that anti-vaxxers are misguided, I think we should be very careful before heading too far and too quickly down that route. That's not the cohesive and inclusive society that I want to live in.

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1 hour ago, n i k o said:

No doubt we will see numbers grow, certainly agree with that. Funny, through my previous line of work kids were always the worst spreaders of colds etc. Damn near impossible to leave a school after working there without some sickness. 

Just a note on death rates, and correct me if I'm wrong, but last year was a successful year for Australians, seeing just under 30,000 less deaths throughout the year than in 2019. I think we've all forgotten that people die from  things other than covid as well. I think the stat going around is about 99.7% of other causes or something to that extent.  

Yes, that is indeed interesting. People with young kids have always got the sniffles haven't they? I wonder whether we've got this wrong all along and that children ARE in fact a major source of transmission and have been all along, but they have been asymptomatic because of their very active immune systems?

Your second point - yes, we do go through cycles of "newsworthiness" on these topics. HIV, heart disease, breast cancer, cervical cancer, road accidents - I read that 300 people drowned in Australia in the past year, and so on and so forth. So we do need to keep things in perspective, but the difference in this case is that we have a global pandemic of a very infectious virus, and no-one knows how to deal with it - and hence the emphasis on it.

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Ultimately there are a few things that the self appointed protectors forget or ignore:

1. You have to die of something and you will

2. whilst you’re not dead, you do actually want to live, not merely exist

3. locking up our kids is robbing them of their present and indeed perhaps their future 

4. no one will force people to go outside and mingle if the rules are relaxed or abandoned. 

5. There is risk in so many things, it’s just people are used to those other risks, so they ignore them. 

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56 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

@n i k o The lead article on ABC News on my 'phone this morning is about the Israel situation. Various public health measures have had to be re-introduced to try to control whatever "wave" they're up to now.

So there is not going to be a single magic bullet to get us out of this. We do need to push on with initial vaccinations to reduce the number of serious infections and deaths, we are likely to be up for booster doses rather like many people front up for their "flu shot" every year, and we need to be prepared for on-going public health measures.

On that last note I'm uncomfortable with the concept of different privileges for vaccinated and non-vaccinated people, and, while I think that anti-vaxxers are misguided, I think we should be very careful before heading too far and too quickly down that route. That's not the cohesive and inclusive society that I want to live in.

Apologies for quoting my own post, but just reading the latest from NSW - people who have not ben vaccinated will "not be welcome" if they go into a shop deemed "non-essential"......we can't have that for goodness sake.

1 minute ago, Shahanga said:

5. There is risk in so many things, it’s just people are used to those other risks, so they ignore them. 

On a lighter note - I never realised the risks I was taking driving my car...until I gave a learner driver some driving practice. I was terrified!

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Martin Foley is speaking in Melbourne, breaking down the state's 324 cases.

He says the day's case numbers takes the current outbreak to 2,166 total cases.

"This continues to be an outbreak disproportionately of the young and unvaccinated and the figures reflect that," Mr Foley said.

He said 317 cases are aged between zero and nine, 337 are aged between 10 and 19, 556 are in their 20s and 365 in their 30s.

He said 87 per cent of the current outbreak are people under 50.

Mr Foley said there are currently 111 people in hospital, 32 in intensive care and 19 of those on ventilators.

He said 89 per cent of those in hospital are unvaccinated and the remaining 11 per cent have had one dose.

Mr Foley said no-one in hospital with COVID-19 has been fully vaccinated.

Worth noting here that the age group he refers to have had the least access to vaccines.

Mr Foley said Victoria set a new daily state-run clinic record yesterday of 37,644 jabs

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19 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Ultimately there are a few things that the self appointed protectors forget or ignore:

1. You have to die of something and you will

2. whilst you’re not dead, you do actually want to live, not merely exist

3. locking up our kids is robbing them of their present and indeed perhaps their future 

4. no one will force people to go outside and mingle if the rules are relaxed or abandoned. 

5. There is risk in so many things, it’s just people are used to those other risks, so they ignore them. 

1. Yep, life is a fatal condition

2. As soon as we all get vaccinated the risk becomes far smaller

3. Yep, see 2

4. True, but the choice is between mingling in a high risk environment or mingling in a far lower risk environment. Fully vaccinated and masked reduces the transmission risk, the reproduction number falls below 1 and the pandemic goes away.

We know how to beat the virus, it exploits our vulnerability of being social creatures, but we have one advantage that a virus will never have, we can be cooperative, that has defeated pandemics before, it'll do the same with this one

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2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

@n i k o The lead article on ABC News on my 'phone this morning is about the Israel situation. Various public health measures have had to be re-introduced to try to control whatever "wave" they're up to now.

So there is not going to be a single magic bullet to get us out of this. We do need to push on with initial vaccinations to reduce the number of serious infections and deaths, we are likely to be up for booster doses rather like many people front up for their "flu shot" every year, and we need to be prepared for on-going public health measures.

On that last note I'm uncomfortable with the concept of different privileges for vaccinated and non-vaccinated people, and, while I think that anti-vaxxers are misguided, I think we should be very careful before heading too far and too quickly down that route. That's not the cohesive and inclusive society that I want to live in.

Israeli and British infection rates are increasing because they've removed the mandatory mask requirement. They are about to reinstitute it as masks + vaccine are clearly effective and necessary at present

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5 hours ago, Shahanga said:

Ultimately there are a few things that the self appointed protectors forget or ignore:

1. You have to die of something and you will

2. whilst you’re not dead, you do actually want to live, not merely exist

3. locking up our kids is robbing them of their present and indeed perhaps their future 

4. no one will force people to go outside and mingle if the rules are relaxed or abandoned. 

5. There is risk in so many things, it’s just people are used to those other risks, so they ignore them. 

4. Contradicts 2.

5. Don't think so. We know how to deal with every day risks and have expectations that others around us will conform to minimise those risks through legislation and protocols. Example, I drive around capital cities without too much concern because I follow the rules and so do most other people. Driving in winter through the alpine region covered in snow requires that you attend to your vehicle prior to departure and to have appropriate tyres/chains. Its even better when people know how to drive on icy roads but you come across people who have never driven to the snow or have not prepared their cars. Similarly driving in third world countries is taking risks to a new level incomparable to driving in Oz. So I don't think people ignore them because when the risks change people become acutely aware of them. The difference is that they are not front and centre.

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Vaccination lowers the risk of contracting and the risk to the person you may pass on the virus to.

If enough of us are vaccinated then it reduces the risk for all, even the unvaccinated

5, We currently have enough people who are saying red lights don't apply to me, its my right to drive through a red light if I want to, it only affects me

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On 08/09/2021 at 10:29 PM, n i k o said:

Thats true, I was only responding to bella regarding case numbers.

I found the following information, maybe someone can refute the following...

As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government.

There's a well described thing called the 'vaccination paradox'. As a greater percentage of the population becomes vaccinated then an increasing percentage of those admitted with Covid 19 will have been vaccinated. The end point would that if 100% were vaccinated then 100% of those admitted would have been vaccinated. 

Having said that, there will be breakthrough infections with Covid, most will not be serious enough for hospitalisation. The other thing to remember is that Israel removed the mask mandate, masks are very effective and add to the protection of the vaccination. 

The Israeli data is spurring some countries, starting with Israel, to organise third doses for vulnerable people, rather than look at it as a booster, its more that three doses is probably a complete vaccination course, not two doses. This is causing ethical dilemmas around distribution, should Western countries with high existing vaccination number use third doses that could be used in countries that have been supplied very little vaccine? The root cause of this dilemma is that our glorious leader, along with the US, voted against legislation that would have removed trademark protection from vaccines during the pandemic, allowing all countries to make their own supply. Very Christian of him.

Pfizer has made record profits. AZ hasn't, one of the conditions of Oxford giving them the vaccine to produce was that it was sold at cost, about $6 I think. Pfizer is over $20 a dose.

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2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

These "numbers' tell today's story in Victoria:

image.png.bae5e73b2fc9d296a6373395825d0aba.png

Of course, in general terms, vaccinations have not been available to these younger age groups. And it's showing in the case loads.

Cases are irrelevant in my view. 
it’s the hospitalisation breakdown that’s most interesting. 
That’s why I think unless you have a health or religious obstacle you’d be a mug* not to be vaccinated.



* I support society allowing people to do stupid things though, like:

*smoke

*be a tard

*not get vaccinated

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20 hours ago, NewConvert said:

4. Contradicts 2.

5. Don't think so. We know how to deal with every day risks and have expectations that others around us will conform to minimise those risks through legislation and protocols. Example, I drive around capital cities without too much concern because I follow the rules and so do most other people. Driving in winter through the alpine region covered in snow requires that you attend to your vehicle prior to departure and to have appropriate tyres/chains. Its even better when people know how to drive on icy roads but you come across people who have never driven to the snow or have not prepared their cars. Similarly driving in third world countries is taking risks to a new level incomparable to driving in Oz. So I don't think people ignore them because when the risks change people become acutely aware of them. The difference is that they are not front and centre.

I would perhaps sum it up as “we both think each other’s position is absurd”.

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1 hour ago, Shahanga said:

Cases are irrelevant in my view. 
it’s the hospitalisation breakdown that’s most interesting. 
That’s why I think unless you have a health or religious obstacle you’d be a mug* not to be vaccinated.



* I support society allowing people to do stupid things though, like:

*smoke

*be a tard

*not get vaccinated

I can't agree with you on the cases issue. What they are demonstrating is that this Delta mutation is infecting children and young people, groups who were thought not to be as vulnerable to Alpha. My point on vaccination is that these are precisely those who have not been vaccinated yet. Therefore, until the latter takes place, people need to be a damn sight more careful about what children are doing instead of thinking that they are somehow not going to be touched by this pandemic.

Of course we must have an inclusive society, and be able to discuss these things sensibly and respectfully, although I really don't understand religious beliefs that oppose vaccination.

Edited by jw1739
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15 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I can't agree with you on the cases issue. What they are demonstrating is that this Delta mutation is infecting children and young people, groups who were thought not to be as vulnerable to Alpha. My point on vaccination is that these are precisely those who have not been vaccinated yet. Therefore, until the latter takes place, people need to be a damn sight more careful about what children are doing instead of thinking that they are somehow not going to be touched by this pandemic.

Of course we must have an inclusive society, and be able to discuss these things sensibly and respectfully, although I really don't understand religious beliefs that oppose vaccination.

I think the figures you need to look at is the hospitalization number. Currently 127. Of those 127 how many are say 16 years and under? I chose 16 only due to currently are unable to be vaccinated. 

Now I can't find anywhere the number of kids in hospital but from what comes out at the pressers vast majority of hospitalized are 20 to 50 year olds unvaccinated. 

From my discussions with GPs currently the view is that kids are by and large still unaffected by covid and generally speaking they contract if from adults in the home, as opposed to from other kids and then spreading it back to their home. Now this could be proven wrong in time.

It will be very interesting to see what happens in the UK in the next few weeks as their schools are re opening. 

 

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There are very few kids in hospital, but, as we don't know the long-term sequels for children, I'd be a little cautious. Next month Pfizer is applying for approval of it's 5-12 vaccine, and doom after, will follow with a 6 month-5 vaccine. I'd be strongly suggesting it to all vulnerable children and I'd think carefully about it for all children.

Here's a graph of UK experience with kids

image.png.45d82394fb9130034abd07b0b24df763.png

Edited by belaguttman
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I've been flat out with work so apologies if i go over any points already covered, just trying to respond to everyone who @'d me

On 07/09/2021 at 12:19 PM, jw1739 said:

It's perfectly reasonable. You say that you have  "right" to choose what goes into your body, but you do not have the "right" to act in a manner that could or will inflict harm on others. Will you expect the same health care as others even though you refuse to be vaccinated? What else do you wish to opt-out from but still expect the same care, help and privileges as those who opt-in? Basically you need to decide whether you wish to continue as a member of a civilised society or not.

People should have the choice to decide how they live.People will smoke, drink and eat causing them to have a myriad of health problems however, they receive the same health treatment as others.We don't tell them how to live, rather we just build the health system around their choices.What is the difference between any of those behaviours and a disease in which the average age of death is 85?(https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/09/just-the-facts-coronavirus-in-australia-by-the-numbers/) If the vulnerable are vaccinated, they are protected from the virus and have a degree of safety.Why should the young and healthy have to suffer?Because a few older people refuse to get the jab? Thats their choice to live and die by unfortunately.

Theirs no such thing as a 'temporary government policy' and I believe it should be up to people's choices on whether or not they want their businesses to be fully vaccinated or not. It seems that NSW were going to be the first state to implement the vaccine passports but only for 3 weeks?Will be interesting to see what VIC does:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9983945/Covid-19-Unvaccinated-Australians-locked-pubs-THREE-WEEKS-NSW.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top

 

On 07/09/2021 at 6:05 PM, NewConvert said:

So the libertarian in me says, that private homes, businesses and governments can demand proof that you have taken all available measures to ensure that you do not contaminate or impact others. So if Qantas says you cannot board without proof of vaccination then they can do so. If Coles demands the same if you want to enter their premises, then they can. It is their business and they have to minimise the risk. You are free not to have the vaccine and not to have a passport BUT then you cannot sue anyone because they refuse to provide you with services and products.

Fair argument, agree with most of what you say.It is not simply a black and white issue and whilst I believe most of us are in 90% agreement of what should happen, its that 10% that we are debating.I am, and will always be more in favour of giving the people more choice over more government interference.

 

On 09/09/2021 at 11:41 AM, Shahanga said:

3. locking up our kids is robbing them of their present and indeed perhaps their future 

This is probably my biggest fear, it seems like the government just don't really give a shit about kids.Why have teachers/educators not had priority access to vaccines?Now that we aren't going to have a supply issues, schools should be reopened up and it's time to have massive vaccine drive days.Send a bus around with 1000's of vaccines and let's get our kids back to school.It's time to actually do something as the horse has now bolted, we're not getting back to 0. Time to be proactive as possible in putting measures around society to protect those most vulnerable to the disease.I still can't believe horse racing and footy have been given priority over our fucking future smdh.

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I don't disagree with much of what you say, but I don't resile from the view that you do not have the right to make life-style choices that adversely affect others. Yes we do try to treat everyone equally with our health services (I hate the word "system"). You can eat what you like and it doesn't affect others, but we encourage people to eat a healthy diet so we don't stretch those health services. You can drink as much as you like, but you don't have the right to to be offensive to others if you are intoxicated or drive a car or operate machinery that puts others at risk, and we have rules designed to stop these behaviours. Yes you can choose to smoke but not in a manner that may cause others harm via "passive smoking." I really don't think that you can discuss these sorts of behaviours in the same breath as vaccinations against an infectious disease.

I don't understand the argument that the "young and healthy" have to suffer because "a few older people refuse to get the jab." Because of the Federal Government's incompetence in providing sufficient vaccine doses certain age groups have not had the opportunity to be vaccinated in the first place, so I don't think that there is evidence yet that it is an identifiable demographic that is refusing vaccinations. And while I don't take it personally, I think it's mildly offensive to perhaps suggest that it's just a few 85-year-olds who are dying  and that they can be dispensed with.

As I said before, I can't accept a form of "vaccination apartheid" - that is not the inclusive society that I want to live in. IMO the way forward is to try and minimise infections, hospitalisations and deaths while we accelerate the vaccination program. But we're going to need a lot more than 80% for that to be effective. I nearly died from measles when I was seven years old, and it affected my sight. I don't want anyone to go through that sort of experience whoever they are. The sacrifices we are making now are worth it.

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4 hours ago, jw1739 said:

FMD how the language has changed on this. From us "all pulling together" (or words to that effect) only a month ago it's descended into confrontation and civil disturbances.

There's a total lack of effective leadership now.

Dan Andrews on borrowed time perhaps?

Shutting down the construction industry as abruptly as he did has just pissed off the wrong people. Get ready for 2 weeks straight of protests!!!!

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Tantrums over losing the tea room! There've been no tea rooms in healthcare for 18 months, full PPE, and these guys are upset about losing their tea room for a few months. Developers own both the Liberal and ALP Governments soot'll be interesting times. All they had to do is to follow the rules, too precious and self-important I suppose

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44 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Tantrums over losing the tea room! There've been no tea rooms in healthcare for 18 months, full PPE, and these guys are upset about losing their tea room for a few months. Developers own both the Liberal and ALP Governments soot'll be interesting times. All they had to do is to follow the rules, too precious and self-important I suppose

If you've dealt with unions before you would know that this is just choice fodder for them. A loose doormat outside the crib room is a well-known touch paper for a major dispute.

Andrews has really made only three mistakes through this. The first to end Lockdown 5 too early, and then having to introduce Lockdown 6 a fortnight later, second, very recently, saying that COVID-zero had never been the target when in reality everything had pointed to it having been just that, and thirdly, now to start the blame game and give the "anti" groups a focal point.

It's now going to be even harder to navigate through the troubled waters of opening up.

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