Domestic Politics

[cadete]

On 21/08/2020 at 1:22 PM, moops said:

Give me some time on the constitution thing, I remember it, I just have to find it to satisfy your criteria.

'And right now if it were put to a plebiscite the over 60s would carry the day by extending it for another year' bold statement, people are sick and tired of the covid thing, the whole business makes no sense. There have been more deaths from influenza.

Andrews will have made tonnes of money just from keeping the construction sector going, a workmate of mine said 'they force us to work during lockdown and they will make it mandatory to work with a vaccine'

kind of authoritarian communist way to go about things.

Actually, I just laid beside my cat and pat it for about 3 hours, I'm not very motivated to prove a point, tomorrow will be a rare day off, shit has to be done. You are low on the list dude.

I've never knowen a cat that likes belly rubs, this cat does.

I thought I would save you the time of actually viewing the Constitution for the first time.

I don't think you have any idea of what the Australian Constitution looks like... it's a very simple document about Government.

There is no bloody Bill of Rights like the crap they have in America, it's one of its strengths due to Anti-Maskers, and Gun Ownership nuts.

The High Court vastly misinterpreted the Constitution in the 90s to say their were implied Human Rights (But all of Australia's top Constitutional Lawyers disagree with this...)

Regardless such a ruling of Common Law would not apply at all to your argument. 

 

[moops]

On 30/08/2020 at 6:32 PM, cadete said:

I thought I would save you the time of actually viewing the Constitution for the first time.

I don't think you have any idea of what the Australian Constitution looks like... it's a very simple document about Government.

There is no bloody Bill of Rights like the crap they have in America, it's one of its strengths due to Anti-Maskers, and Gun Ownership nuts.

The High Court vastly misinterpreted the Constitution in the 90s to say their were implied Human Rights (But all of Australia's top Constitutional Lawyers disagree with this...)

Regardless such a ruling of Common Law would not apply at all to your argument. 

 

Jesus, I trawled a page or two, I don't remember the convo.

 

In other news, a Woman in Stage three restrictions was raided and arrested for wanting to protest about the stage 4 restrictions us metropolitans are going through.

Do people realise that the Flue is a strain of corona virus?

Do people realise that the death rate in Australia for the flue v corona is very similar.

Do people realise that a vaccination is a short term silver bullet? Just like the flue, corona will mutate and vaccines will be obsolete.

Do people understand how evolution works? Since China released/covered it up, it is here now, we have to live with it and it will never go away, just like the flue. The major exponent of evolution is virus, they take DNA from us (hence the mutations) and they deposit their own DNA in place of, talk of a vaccine is futile.

If we keep locking people up because of case numbers it will never end, because of mutations, there will always be positives, just like people keep getting the flue.

Edited September 3, 2020 by moops

[bt50]

10 hours ago, moops said:

Jesus, I trawled a page or two, I don't remember the convo.

 

In other news, a Woman in Stage three restrictions was raided and arrested for wanting to protest about the stage 4 restrictions us metropolitans are going through.

Do people realise that the Flue is a strain of corona virus?

Do people realise that the death rate in Australia for the flue v corona is very similar.

Do people realise that a vaccination is a short term silver bullet? Just like the flue, corona will mutate and vaccines will be obsolete.

Do people understand how evolution works? Since China released/covered it up, it is here now, we have to live with it and it will never go away, just like the flue. The major exponent of evolution is virus, they take DNA from us (hence the mutations) and they deposit their own DNA in place of, talk of a vaccine is futile.

If we keep locking people up because of case numbers it will never end, because of mutations, there will always be positives, just like people keep getting the flue.

[moops]

I'll take that as a compliment.

[moops]

 

[moops]

The constitution say's we have a right to peaceful protests.

A total about face when BLM were announced, want to protest against your freedoms and face the full front of the law.

[jw1739]

I think I'd rather listen to the opinions of a couple of constitutional lawyers. Victoria has its own written constitution, enacted in 1975, and it has jurisdiction over matters considered state matters.

You only need to look at the present border confusion to see that many matters concerning the states are not subject to Commonwealth jurisdiction at all. 

AFAIK the High Court of Australia decides cases involving the constitution.

[moops]

The constitution say's we have a right to peaceful protests.

As far as vic laws go.

https://www.ag.gov.au/rights-and-protections/human-rights-and-anti-discrimination/human-rights-scrutiny/public-sector-guidance-sheets/right-freedom-assembly-and-association

A total about face when BLM were announced, want to protest against your freedoms and face the full front of the law.

I work 5-7 day's a week, essential worker non the less. I go home and on the way buy some groceries, it seems that's my lot in life. I was feeling a bit peckish the other night, I looked at my watch and it was 8.10pm, I couldn't even go and get food for myself 'because i was in gaol' by my state representative.

As I said I work, I wouldn't mind going for a ride on my motorbike after work or on the weekend, but there is a 5 km limit. Fuck it off, I will be socially distanced with a helmet ffs. I wouldn't mind going fishing with my mate, no go apparently, Andrews has put his foot down.

If you are not angered that people are getting arrested for wanting to protest (when both the police and the Andrews government was ok wit BLM), then you have a problem with ethics.

Edited September 5, 2020 by moops

[jw1739]

Did you read the part on Derogation?

[moops]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

Did you read the part on Derogation?

 

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

Did you read the part on Derogation?

'in time of public emergency '

The fact is that Andrew's has extended the state of disaster/emergency, he can do what ever he likes, already he wants to add extra time on our lockdown.

I can't believe a greens came out of maternity leave to vote, if she didn't we would be free right now, instead we are effectively in gaol, I have been in gaol and it's like a gaol farm, say Beechworth, the difference is it's the whole state, not naughty boys.

Edited September 5, 2020 by moops

[jw1739]

24 minutes ago, moops said:

 

'in time of public emergency '

The fact is that Andrew's has extended the state of disaster/emergency, he can do what ever he likes, already he wants to add extra time on our lockdown.

I can't believe a greens came out of maternity leave to vote, if she didn't we would be free right now, instead we are effectively in gaol, I have been in gaol and it's like a gaol farm, say Beechworth, the difference is it's the whole state, not naughty boys.

@moops Mate, I want to say that I don't take your frustrations lightly. I have been either self-isolated (because of my age) or under restrictions since towards the end of March, and have only got through it so far with the help of my wife and the fact that we have a relatively large house and a garden where we can get some space and activity. It hurts too to know that we are in this mess only because of the total and utter fuck-up in hotel quarantine by the Victorian government. But it's happened, and we have to stay the course until we have it under control again as we did before - a third wave will be unmanageable.

[moops]

9 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

@moops Mate, I want to say that I don't take your frustrations lightly. I have been either self-isolated (because of my age) or under restrictions since towards the end of March, and have only got through it so far with the help of my wife and the fact that we have a relatively large house and a garden where we can get some space and activity. It hurts too to know that we are in this mess only because of the total and utter fuck-up in hotel quarantine by the Victorian government. But it's happened, and we have to stay the course until we have it under control again as we did before - a third wave will be unmanageable.

I have worked all this time (since March), it's really starting to shit me, I can understand why people want to protest (I can't imagine those who have lost their jobs) and they should be able to.

[moops]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

@moops Mate, I want to say that I don't take your frustrations lightly. I have been either self-isolated (because of my age) or under restrictions since towards the end of March, and have only got through it so far with the help of my wife and the fact that we have a relatively large house and a garden where we can get some space and activity. It hurts too to know that we are in this mess only because of the total and utter fuck-up in hotel quarantine by the Victorian government. But it's happened, and we have to stay the course until we have it under control again as we did before - a third wave will be unmanageable.

I don't think the corona is all it's made out to be. All deaths beside 4 have been over the age of 80, theses dudes will have had health issues any way, I just don't understand it. Andrews saying that we need to get to single figures...NZ had 0 Cases for how long and still they have suddenly had recorded cases.

My postulation is that there will always be cases, it's similar to the flue, we don't need to ruin our economy over the flue, protect those that need protecting and get on with things.

Also working a physical job with a mask is frustrating, half the dudes have a smoke just to have the mask off.

I have been all over Melbourne, driving trucks and utes delivering thing's, each worksite ha different rules. The other day I had to fill out a form and it asked if we car poolled, we did from the factory, you can't expect a single person to manoeuvre 100kg of glass on his own.

The next day we had to go in separate cars, but if we had of got there with glass, two people in the same vehicle would have been ok.

Edited September 5, 2020 by moops

[malloy]

https://elemental.medium.com/a-supercomputer-analyzed-covid-19-and-an-interesting-new-theory-has-emerged-31cb8eba9d63

[Shahanga]

Lol to everyone who thought “Dan was doing A good job”. Welcome to 2 more months of lockdown.

[n i k o]

What a joke. Blanket rule across so many industries that have nothing to do with the spread of the virus. So many people will be screwed with this bullshit plan. 

[jw1739]

3 hours ago, Shahanga said:

Lol to everyone who thought “Dan was doing A good job”. Welcome to 2 more months of lockdown.

 

1 hour ago, n i k o said:

What a joke. Blanket rule across so many industries that have nothing to do with the spread of the virus. So many people will be screwed with this bullshit plan. 

Unfortunately lockdowns are the only real way of getting a pandemic under control. Relaxing too soon will result in an unmanageable third wave. It's not only about the numbers of infections, it's about the capacity of the health resources to cope, it's about serious long-term health effects of infections, and it's about mortality.

[Baka1]

Say we get out of this shit in November as planned, I reckon we’ll have a spike around Xmas then boom back into lockdown... he has the powers for 6 more months remember...

[n i k o]

6 hours ago, jw1739 said:

 

Unfortunately lockdowns are the only real way of getting a pandemic under control. Relaxing too soon will result in an unmanageable third wave. It's not only about the numbers of infections, it's about the capacity of the health resources to cope, it's about serious long-term health effects of infections, and it's about mortality.

Problem is there is irreversible damage done to people because of blanket rules placed over different industries.

The majority of deaths are to elderly living within aged care and within the hospitals. How do those industries compare to industries like lawn mowing? How many transmissions of the virus have occurred there? What about real estate? How many transmissions of the virus have occurred there? 

Instead the Dan Andrews government puts blanket rules stopping everyone from functioning somewhat normally. I speak with many people through my line of work jw. There are many people that are in a lot of trouble and will be ruined from this. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by n i k o

[Shahanga]

There are heaps of alternatives than extending lockdown till Christmas or beyond @jw1739. Decent contact tracing for a start. More “surgical” treatment of the problem areas where the virus actually bloody spreads. 
it’s this heavy handed blanket rules that caused Andrews to fuck up in the first place, he relied on it and took his eye off the ball on quarantine, where anyone with half a brain could have identified it as easily the biggest risk.

In the meantime the fool is running the State into the ground causing untold Physical health, economic and Mental health damage. 

[NewConvert]

40 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

There are heaps of alternatives than extending lockdown till Christmas or beyond @jw1739. Decent contact tracing for a start. More “surgical” treatment of the problem areas where the virus actually bloody spreads. 
it’s this heavy handed blanket rules that caused Andrews to fuck up in the first place, he relied on it and took his eye off the ball on quarantine, where anyone with half a brain could have identified it as easily the biggest risk.

In the meantime the fool is running the State into the ground causing untold Physical health, economic and Mental health damage. 

Actually the so called decent contact tracing is a myth. So far we have the ADF and the police trying to track people down and they have been unable to do so. So the next step would be more draconian - incarcerate those who are found to be positive until they are over the sickness. But wait that doesn't work either as people stop getting tested and the numbers overwhelm the resources so lets increase that a notch and transport them to a tent city outside of Melbourne replete with barbed wire.

The virus will spread with people moving about. Which means that the 1M  who work in the CBD but live in the outer suburbs (tree huggers, etc) will most likely come into contact with someone who could be a carrier. And the worst case, someone who is asymptomatic and a super spreader.

And you are right about taking the eyes of the ball with quarantine because anyone who has been to an A-League/AFL/gig will have seen first hand that Indian security guards are a useless pack of ....

[moops]

2 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Actually the so called decent contact tracing is a myth. So far we have the ADF and the police trying to track people down and they have been unable to do so. So the next step would be more draconian - incarcerate those who are found to be positive until they are over the sickness. But wait that doesn't work either as people stop getting tested and the numbers overwhelm the resources so lets increase that a notch and transport them to a tent city outside of Melbourne replete with barbed wire.

The virus will spread with people moving about. Which means that the 1M  who work in the CBD but live in the outer suburbs (tree huggers, etc) will most likely come into contact with someone who could be a carrier. And the worst case, someone who is asymptomatic and a super spreader.

And you are right about taking the eyes of the ball with quarantine because anyone who has been to an A-League/AFL/gig will have seen first hand that Indian security guards are a useless pack of ....

Why couldn't we follow the Taiwan model? they haven't locked down at all, admittedly they are at war with China so no Chinese carriers came into their country, South Korea has followed pretty similar rules.

Protect the old and infirm, contact tracing and just get on with things.

Edited September 7, 2020 by moops

[NewConvert]

9 hours ago, moops said:

Why couldn't we follow the Taiwan model? they haven't locked down at all, admittedly they are at war with China so no Chinese carriers came into their country, South Korea has followed pretty similar rules.

Protect the old and infirm, contact tracing and just get on with things.

Cultural reasons. Having worked in Japan (only Tokyo has suffered a lockdown) and with Taiwanese they would never tolerate BLM or Hoaxers marches. Custom wise they always wear masks anyway, they are insanely anal about hygiene and clean public spaces. There is no way we could emulate their cultural behaviour. They are far less individualistic than what we are.

During the first lockdown I thought why not use the fire zone as our delimiters but then the images of people scouring small country twons and cleaning them up of supplies made me realise that we have to cater for the lowest common denominator.

[jw1739]

In answer to my critics, I concede that a lockdown is a heavy-handed approach, but when you are faced with hundreds of new infections per day - and that's the ones you actually know about - it is IMO the right approach to gain control. You just cannot control it by contact tracing or cleaning, and your health services are rapidly overwhelmed.

Once control is regained however, I agree that widespread lockdown is not necessarily the right thing, because it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut approach.

As for comparisons with other countries, I don't think they are valid because other societies have different sets of values and behaviours both inside families and in their general societies. I don't know much about Taiwan, but I do know that in China they are very organised at the street level - the people who square-dance together in the evening are the same people who will fight the pandemic together. Hong Kong is different again, and every time I have been there I have marvelled at their cleanliness on their PT systems. I feel that we are a rather individualistic society in comparison.

In Victoria IMO we have been poorly served by our government and public service. For example, to hear the evidence in the quarantine enquiry that two government departments had "difficulties" communicating with each other just makes my blood boil. We have IMO been poorly served by restricting the data actually available to the public.

[NewConvert]

9 hours ago, jw1739 said:

In answer to my critics, I concede that a lockdown is a heavy-handed approach, but when you are faced with hundreds of new infections per day - and that's the ones you actually know about - it is IMO the right approach to gain control. You just cannot control it by contact tracing or cleaning, and your health services are rapidly overwhelmed.

Once control is regained however, I agree that widespread lockdown is not necessarily the right thing, because it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut approach.

As for comparisons with other countries, I don't think they are valid because other societies have different sets of values and behaviours both inside families and in their general societies. I don't know much about Taiwan, but I do know that in China they are very organised at the street level - the people who square-dance together in the evening are the same people who will fight the pandemic together. Hong Kong is different again, and every time I have been there I have marvelled at their cleanliness on their PT systems. I feel that we are a rather individualistic society in comparison.

In Victoria IMO we have been poorly served by our government and public service. For example, to hear the evidence in the quarantine enquiry that two government departments had "difficulties" communicating with each other just makes my blood boil. We have IMO been poorly served by restricting the data actually available to the public.

I fully agree with you. Although having worked in large multinationals for a long period of time having two departments not talking to each other is not at all surprising. Actually I have worked with a group that the top three managers couldn't stand each other - that was interesting and fed my disdain for management as a whole.

But to add to your point what is the definition of 'under control' because I bet that all states have different definitions and certainly none would satisfy the PM. Once this whole saga is over what I want from our medical/scientific community is for better definitions that are consistent across the nation.

And given that I just watched the news, the inquiry heard that the security guards lied to the contact tracers and did not bother even doing security as they allowed the people in quarantine to get out. Then they showed footage of the Manchester bomber where the security guards were alerted that there was a bloke with a rather large backpack looking very suspicious and they did nothing. Geez they looked like Indians to me.

 

[jw1739]

I'd love to know what happened to the old Quarantine Station down at Point Nepean. Last used, I believe, for refugees from the Kosovo conflict. Surely this could be refurbished and then supplied and manned when necessary?

[NewConvert]

11 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I'd love to know what happened to the old Quarantine Station down at Point Nepean. Last used, I believe, for refugees from the Kosovo conflict. Surely this could be refurbished and then supplied and manned when necessary?

Probably sold off for development.

[jw1739]

6 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Probably sold off for development.

https://www.museumoflost.com/the-port-nepean-quarantine-station/

In 2014, the Victorian Liberal Government approved a redevelopment proposal for the site, that would have seen the quarantine station privatised and turned into a health spa.

Many of the historic buildings were to be removed, and replaced with luxury accommodation, restaurants and a conference centre.

Amid community outcry, and organised protests, the project was placed on hold after approval. It was later abandoned after a change of Government in the state election that year.

The incoming Labor government later announced that part of the site would be turned over to Melbourne University, who planned to build an Oceanographic Study Institute on part of the property.

Work on this has not yet commenced. When visiting the site a few weekends ago, I was struck by the lost feeling of the place. History hangs tangibly on the empty buildings, the vacant corridors, the picturesque beach. Long may it continue to do so.

[NewConvert]

4 hours ago, jw1739 said:

https://www.museumoflost.com/the-port-nepean-quarantine-station/

In 2014, the Victorian Liberal Government approved a redevelopment proposal for the site, that would have seen the quarantine station privatised and turned into a health spa.

Many of the historic buildings were to be removed, and replaced with luxury accommodation, restaurants and a conference centre.

Amid community outcry, and organised protests, the project was placed on hold after approval. It was later abandoned after a change of Government in the state election that year.

The incoming Labor government later announced that part of the site would be turned over to Melbourne University, who planned to build an Oceanographic Study Institute on part of the property.

Work on this has not yet commenced. When visiting the site a few weekends ago, I was struck by the lost feeling of the place. History hangs tangibly on the empty buildings, the vacant corridors, the picturesque beach. Long may it continue to do so.

Well given the current income stream for Melb Uni work is not likely to start soon. Unless of course there is government funding for development but given the Feds antipathy to tertiary education this is unlikely.

[moops]

Jeff Kennet also closed the infectious disease facility in Fairfield in 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_Infectious_Diseases_Hospital

[jw1739]

14 hours ago, moops said:

Jeff Kennet also closed the infectious disease facility in Fairfield in 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_Infectious_Diseases_Hospital

Thanks. This is the telling line for me: "When it closed, it was the last specific infectious diseases hospital in Australia."
IMO a monumental mistake. No specific hospitals, no specific quarantine facilities.

[NewConvert]

7 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Thanks. This is the telling line for me: "When it closed, it was the last specific infectious diseases hospital in Australia."
IMO a monumental mistake. No specific hospitals, no specific quarantine facilities.

I wonder if the bean counters will do a cost benefit analysis of the two options of keeping these services running since they were closed vs the cost of the pandemic?

[jw1739]

20 hours ago, NewConvert said:

I wonder if the bean counters will do a cost benefit analysis of the two options of keeping these services running since they were closed vs the cost of the pandemic?

That's really my point. I'd be prepared to bet that keeping them on a care and maintenance basis is by far the cheaper.

[moops]

The vote of no confidence against Andrews is not good, he will win and you can only do it once a term. He had to wheel and deal to get extensions on his powers, those that capitulated won't get what they wanted if he get's kicked out, the only avenue of getting rid of the despot will be through the Governor and she is supporting him.

On a side note, the government site won't let you see flue deaths other than 2020, anything prior is restricted.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/ozflu-surveil-no12-19.htm#current

It's just a flue.

https://www.sonichealthplus.com.au/health-hub/flu/item/2019-flu-season-2nd-worst-on-record

That is with a developed vaccine over many years.

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by Subject/3303.0~2017~Main Features~Deaths due to influenza~5

compare:

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-deaths-by-age-group-and-sex

look at icu cases, does that say pandemic to you?

look at aged care cases?

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers#total-cases-recoveries-deaths-and-new-cases-in-the-last-24-hours

And we are imprisoned for this?

Edited September 17, 2020 by moops

[moops]

Strange it seems the whole thing is the same worldwide?

Ireland is the same, America is the same, Australia the information is restricted.

 

 

[MHFC-FAN]

4 hours ago, moops said:

Strange it seems the whole thing is the same worldwide?

Ireland is the same, America is the same, Australia the information is restricted.

 

 

The virus is just the smokescreen for the real agenda... 

[Shahanga]

The latest in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Victoria.

Arbitary indefinite detention for people who are consider by individuals appointed by the minister to be likely to commit a crime at some point in the future.

No, I’m not making this up.

”Oh but it’s alright, it’ll only be people who disagree with the government”

[moops]

5 hours ago, Shahanga said:

The latest in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Victoria.

Arbitary indefinite detention for people who are consider by individuals appointed by the minister to be likely to commit a crime at some point in the future.

No, I’m not making this up.

”Oh but it’s alright, it’ll only be people who disagree with the government”

Yep, how about that Omnibus bill he is trying to get through?

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6936289/vic-covid-19-bill-powers-worry-qcs-judges/

[cadete]

Seriously @moops I know have a better understanding of your ideas on Constitutional Law by looking at your links to where you are getting your ideas.

All I can say is that I feel your Social Media Feeds must be a sad and scary place, with the abundance of such content... maybe try material that is not in Video Form presented by Guys usually in a tight tee shirts/under six foot who claim to be Freedom Fighters.

When really their true motivation to the world of Internet Politics where constant rejections from woman due to a lack of interpersonal skills beside Grunting at girls as they walk past. Hence their devotion to Mens Rights and alongside a love of so  called Alphas like dead Bodybuilders and of course President Trump. (Pls bare in mind I am talking about the Media Sources - Not You).

I say this as someone hoping many than anyone that the ALP leadership spill happens and we get rid of Andrews, as also have things I want to do outside of bloody 5kms. Maybe you could gradually learn to read your information, perhaps start of with a bit of Bolt and Rita in the Sun. Then maybe tackle something written by an actual expert in Constitutional Law... I know there is one book out there made to be written for the layman called "Conversations with the Constitution".

[malloy]

5 hours ago, cadete said:

Seriously @moops I know have a better understanding of your ideas on Constitutional Law by looking at your links to where you are getting your ideas.

All I can say is that I feel your Social Media Feeds must be a sad and scary place, with the abundance of such content... maybe try material that is not in Video Form presented by Guys usually in a tight tee shirts/under six foot who claim to be Freedom Fighters.

When really their true motivation to the world of Internet Politics where constant rejections from woman due to a lack of interpersonal skills beside Grunting at girls as they walk past. Hence their devotion to Mens Rights and alongside a love of so  called Alphas like dead Bodybuilders and of course President Trump. (Pls bare in mind I am talking about the Media Sources - Not You).

I say this as someone hoping many than anyone that the ALP leadership spill happens and we get rid of Andrews, as also have things I want to do outside of bloody 5kms. Maybe you could gradually learn to read your information, perhaps start of with a bit of Bolt and Rita in the Sun. Then maybe tackle something written by an actual expert in Constitutional Law... I know there is one book out there made to be written for the layman called "Conversations with the Constitution".

It probably doesn't help either that those sources tend to refer to the Constitution and each state's Constitution interchangeably without truly understanding what they are quoting/citing (which when cited tends to be a subsection or paragraph out of context).