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Turnbull always wanted to join labor but they turned him down. Being ambitious he turned to his next choice.

its instructive thst it’s greens and labor voters who seem most upset by his disappearance.

Really was a shame he never got to be a Labor PM. Probably would have been better than most.

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9 hours ago, cadete said:

I think anybody who is an advocate of Traditional Australian Politics and its Westminster System of Government would be a fool to not vote for the ALP at the next election.

This just being as it is the far more stable option ATM, sadly many voted for the Coalition when they got into Power for the same reason and of course nothing changed. 

 

10 hours ago, cadete said:

You do realize that the ALP is also split... its formally split into its Faction System but right now its looks tight knit when we all know it was not that long ago when it looked anything but tight knit.

Its easy to see constant disunity in a Party in this position, the leadership change wont change the Government's fortunes but it may save seats if a New Leader can release a new Energy Platform and announce the new School Funding deal that Turnbull has apparently almost completed by taking it off Birmingham's hands.

That's why this has occurred, Dutton and Co waited for Turnbull to take the brunt of the Energy Reversal and so that the new leader can launch a new Energy and School Funding Policies as those of a new regime. (Also its hardly a surprise that the first Ministers to resign and then turn to Dutton where Victorians... as they have the most to lose if the Old School Funding Deal went through).

When comparing the Anglo Saxon countries it is remarkable that they have a two party system compared to most other European democracies. But on closer inspection, the ALP is two parties joined through the factional alignment. The Coalition has always been a coalition - that is the Country/National Party has joined with the Liberal party. So in a sense, the Australian polity works out the political accommodation of its sub-parties before the election rather than after the election as is common elsewhere. My take is that the Liberal party will need to break into a factional system so that they can reach internal accommodation. However this may not necessarily need be the case as they may be able to reach accommodation in some other way.

As for the Westminster system I am an unabashed supporter of it. For whatever its flaws they can temper the extremes a lot better than the alternatives.

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48 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Turnbull always wanted to join labor but they turned him down. Being ambitious he turned to his next choice.

its instructive thst it’s greens and labor voters who seem most upset by his disappearance.

Really was a shame he never got to be a Labor PM. Probably would have been better than most.

Don't know where you got that from. This ol' leftie couln't stomach the spiv.

The anecdotal stories in the age this morning in the blue ribbon seat of Kooyong were definitely for Turnbull.

Me thinks that right of centre voters keep telling themselves that he was a Labor PM because they are too scared too look in the mirror to see the inconsistencies. Almost but not quite like Dorian Grays painting.

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15 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Don't know where you got that from. This ol' leftie couln't stomach the spiv.

The anecdotal stories in the age this morning in the blue ribbon seat of Kooyong were definitely for Turnbull.

Me thinks that right of centre voters keep telling themselves that he was a Labor PM because they are too scared too look in the mirror to see the inconsistencies. Almost but not quite like Dorian Grays painting.

Interesting about your spiv reference. 500M for some mates to do God knows what? If that was in PNG what would people say? Seemed very strange.

Do liberal voters actually read the Age? Why on earth?  (I was going on some Facebook coming moments I’d read)

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3 hours ago, Shahanga said:

Interesting about your spiv reference. 500M for some mates to do God knows what? If that was in PNG what would people say? Seemed very strange.

Do liberal voters actually read the Age? Why on earth?  (I was going on some Facebook coming moments I’d read)

You would be surprised. If your world does not entirely revolve around tax minimisation or tax cuts then the rest of teh life also affects them. Which is why Kooyong voted for SSM not as Andrew Bolt told them how to vote.

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On 8/25/2018 at 3:05 PM, HeartFc said:

If the Libs were smart they'd just go back to Abbott, he'd grind out a close victory. I suspect they're way too stubborn and prefer losing than going back to Abbott. 

Honestly, if u think they Libs have chance then u should back them as as they are paying $3.35 if they win at Ladbrokes.

In a two horse race those odds look like those an Donkey would have up against a Thoroughbred.

NOTE: RIP Birmingham. :D 

Edited by cadete
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A bit like the City squad. More focus should be on the team politicians rather than just the marquee Prime Minister contenders. This country has been hijacked by personality politics for the past 10 years. I want us to set medium- and long-term national policies and deliver the right outcomes quietly and sensibly rather than have some bloody show pony strutting about at the top whilst the rest of the country fibrillates.

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3 hours ago, jw1739 said:

A bit like the City squad. More focus should be on the team politicians rather than just the marquee Prime Minister contenders. This country has been hijacked by personality politics for the past 10 years. I want us to set medium- and long-term national policies and deliver the right outcomes quietly and sensibly rather than have some bloody show pony strutting about at the top whilst the rest of the country fibrillates.

The population is to blame. Politicians merely pander to us.

I often wonder how many PMs pre the internet age would actually last these dsys.

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19 hours ago, jw1739 said:

A bit like the City squad. More focus should be on the team politicians rather than just the marquee Prime Minister contenders. This country has been hijacked by personality politics for the past 10 years. I want us to set medium- and long-term national policies and deliver the right outcomes quietly and sensibly rather than have some bloody show pony strutting about at the top whilst the rest of the country fibrillates.

Interesting comment. I have a great deal of admiration for Maryse Paine the former defence minister and now foreign minister. Yet, the comments were that she was invisible and a nobody. Her predecessor in the defence portfolio was a hapless tool with a big mouth which eventually meant that he got sent back to the backbench. So I believe that the fault lies with us... we demand useless show ponies.

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4 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Interesting comment. I have a great deal of admiration for Maryse Paine the former defence minister and now foreign minister. Yet, the comments were that she was invisible and a nobody. Her predecessor in the defence portfolio was a hapless tool with a big mouth which eventually meant that he got sent back to the backbench. So I believe that the fault lies with us... we demand useless show ponies.

I agree that the fault lies with us. The internet and www have enabled a degree of immediacy that has seduced us all (to a greater or lesser extent) to now demand that immediacy in every aspect of our lives. Even jw, venerable Luddite that he is, sends an e-mail and if he doesn't receive a reply within 24 hours he thinks he's being ignored.

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On 8/29/2018 at 5:11 AM, NewConvert said:

Interesting comment. I have a great deal of admiration for Maryse Paine the former defence minister and now foreign minister. Yet, the comments were that she was invisible and a nobody. Her predecessor in the defence portfolio was a hapless tool with a big mouth which eventually meant that he got sent back to the backbench. So I believe that the fault lies with us... we demand useless show ponies.

Marise Payne polticised the defence force which no one should do but I would take even her over Christopher Pyne...

But they should have chosen someone with experience and expertise in the field like former major general Jim Molan or SAS Captain Andrew Hastie.

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8 hours ago, Deeming said:

Marise Payne polticised the defence force which no one should do but I would take even her over Christopher Pyne...

But they should have chosen someone with experience and expertise in the field like former major general Jim Molan or SAS Captain Andrew Hastie.

If you read her bio you will have noticed that she has been involved in defence policy for a very long time. And certainly having been a member of the defence forces does not necessarily mean that the person would be a good defence minister. I keep reading about the poiticisation of the defence forces but I have never actually seen or read any specific thing that she has done to do so. And indeed coming from the left, I would argue that the defence forces have always been politicised to the right which is why so few members of the defence forces have been members of teh labour party. Of course Tom Uren was and remains the gold standard for ex-defence personnel being part of the parliamentary team.

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13 hours ago, NewConvert said:

If you read her bio you will have noticed that she has been involved in defence policy for a very long time. And certainly having been a member of the defence forces does not necessarily mean that the person would be a good defence minister. I keep reading about the poiticisation of the defence forces but I have never actually seen or read any specific thing that she has done to do so. And indeed coming from the left, I would argue that the defence forces have always been politicised to the right which is why so few members of the defence forces have been members of teh labour party. Of course Tom Uren was and remains the gold standard for ex-defence personnel being part of the parliamentary team.

Or it could just be the fact that the personality of people on the right are more inclined to join the armed forces or it could be that it is the left who are the ones who tend to attack our armed forces.

Or maybe its just that Labor tend to cut defence spending and budgeted defence spending.

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11 hours ago, malloy said:

Or it could just be the fact that the personality of people on the right are more inclined to join the armed forces or it could be that it is the left who are the ones who tend to attack our armed forces.

Or maybe its just that Labor tend to cut defence spending and budgeted defence spending.

I agree with the personality thing only because for certain jobs you really do need to have the right personality. The left has always criticised the military industrial complex but that was Eisenhower's warning (these days the 5 star general and republican president is considered a communist by the alt-right brigade); and the involvement in unnecessary wars such as Vietnam and more recently the invasion of Iraq (rampaging success that was).

As for Labour cutting defence I went and had a look at the Parliamentary library and found this handy chart:

image.thumb.png.23c5c0e9f16ac7ad2e40e9e66dad2026.png

Basically since the mid 70s defence expenditure has been stable independently of the political party in power. And for the record the expenditure in this financial year is lower than the previous financial year by $US280M. Scott Morrison was the treasurer responsible for both budgets. So the Liberal party also cuts defence expenditure.

 

 

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On 30/08/2018 at 7:27 PM, NewConvert said:

If you read her bio you will have noticed that she has been involved in defence policy for a very long time. And certainly having been a member of the defence forces does not necessarily mean that the person would be a good defence minister. I keep reading about the poiticisation of the defence forces but I have never actually seen or read any specific thing that she has done to do so. And indeed coming from the left, I would argue that the defence forces have always been politicised to the right which is why so few members of the defence forces have been members of teh labour party. Of course Tom Uren was and remains the gold standard for ex-defence personnel being part of the parliamentary team.

Don’t forget Bill Hayden 

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3 hours ago, Dr.Dreas said:

So...Guess Pauline doesn't look to stupid now...

Actually she looks very stupid because she said Asian Migration would destroy this country, and then when it did the opposite she then had to switch to attacking Islamic Migration and now says she is "All Good" with Australia's Asian Community.

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44 minutes ago, cadete said:

Actually she looks very stupid because she said Asian Migration would destroy this country, and then when it did the opposite she then had to switch to attacking Islamic Migration and now says she is "All Good" with Australia's Asian Community.

You shouldn't measure these things in the short term.

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Well I wouldn't say its destroyed the nation but walking around Melbourne CBD these days is not far off downtown Beijing. All these bubble tea joints on every corner instead of pubs kinda makes me feel like the Western way of life is numbered. Call me racist but the stats support that notion. 

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17 minutes ago, HeartFc said:

Well I wouldn't say its destroyed the nation but walking around Melbourne CBD these days is not far off downtown Beijing. All these bubble tea joints on every corner instead of pubs kinda makes me feel like the Western way of life is numbered. Call me racist but the stats support that notion. 

It's not racism at all. Racism is to assume that any particular race of people has certain characteristics that mean that they will behave in certain ways and in its worst form that one race is inherently superior to another.

It is not racist to be observe how society is changing or to be concerned about it. It's not racist to be concerned about major influxes of people who by their heritage do not have the same values that we have because of our heritage.

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10 hours ago, Tesla said:

I'm not sure that's racism either tbh.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. If you have a useful succinct definition I'd like to hear it.

One of the issues I see with any discussion on this, and related topics such as immigration, is that not too many people are clear on what they are actually talking about.

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9 hours ago, jw1739 said:

One of the issues I see with any discussion on this, and related topics such as immigration, is that not too many people are clear on what they are actually talking about.

But the media tell me brown people are bad? What do I believe??!!!

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On 11/13/2018 at 8:52 PM, HeartFc said:

Well I wouldn't say its destroyed the nation but walking around Melbourne CBD these days is not far off downtown Beijing. All these bubble tea joints on every corner instead of pubs kinda makes me feel like the Western way of life is numbered. Call me racist but the stats support that notion. 

What is the Western way of life?

Because what u are really referring to is a particular small time period of the Western World because the Western Way of Life has always changed dramatically from era to era usually due to interaction and influence from other cultures.

At one point in time most Westerns smoked (because of interaction with Native Americans) and now most people dont, at another point everybody drank tea (because of interaction with Asia) and still a lot people still do. A huge amount of Westerners now drink Coffee (Due to coming from Africa to the Middle East then to Italy) and even Espresso Machines that dominate Melbourne life these days only came to Australia and London after WW2.

Globalization has seen the Western World be able to now easily interact with the rest of the world, and so of course other cultures are so going to have an influence and be able to do even more quickly. I agree there is a part of the CBD heavily populated by stores selling Asian Food and Drinks but whose not to say that is not something that is slowly becoming another element of Western Life like Cigarettes, Tea, and Coffee all did.

Personally I like to this part of the City because it does operate like Beijing that means it never falls asleep and is always alive, Melbourne in the nineties was just homeless people after 6pm so for me alongside Kennett's reforms in trading hours it has aided our CBD greatly. Being a City that now doesn't sleep is a major appeal for why Tourist from other countries and particularly other Australian Cities love our city.

More importantly what do these stores and Melbourne's Fast Growing Chinese Population have done to cause any real significant disharmony in the Melbourne Community: very little. Their religion/philosophy on life is hardly at real odds with traditional Christian values.

Now of course you can argue that their is obviously a language barrier and that a lot dont really converse in English but you can say that about the first generation of any Immigrants that come to Australia from Europe in the Mid 20 Century.

But their Kids go to Australian Schools, speech English to their friends in Australian Accents then choose a Footy Team and then away we go as before you know Dad is taking them to a Hawthorn games at the MCG sitting alongside in your words "The Westerners".

Edited by cadete
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The present influx of Chinese migrants is largely from the People's Republic. For most of the time before that, most of the Chinese coming to Australia were from places such as Hong Kong and Malaysia and already had exposure to both English and "the West." IMO it's too early to draw conclusions about the impact of what's happening now.

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The Yoof in this forum! Back in the 70s All Pubs (well legit ones anyway) closed at 6pm. And although places like Williamstown, Port Melbourne, etc did have pubs in every corner they were all closed by 6pm. You had a choice of VB, Carlton, Fosters (for the chicks) and Abbotsford for stout. Wine was cask but occassionally we could try something different like Melbourne Bitter. If you wanted Tooheys or Castlemaine or Swan you moved to those states. It was in the mid 80s when John Cain junior deregulated the alcohol industry at the state level and Hawke deregulated the industry nationally. BYOs slowly started to become an extinct species and Australian food culture began to develop.

So a time travel machine back 48 years would simply show you sober walking a deserted CBD. and deserted suburbs.

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10 hours ago, cadete said:

What is the Western way of life?

Because what u are really referring to is a particular small time period of the Western World because the Western Way of Life has always changed dramatically from era to era usually due to interaction and influence from other cultures.

At one point in time most Westerns smoked (because of interaction with Native Americans) and now most people dont, at another point everybody drank tea (because of interaction with Asia) and still a lot people still do. A huge amount of Westerners now drink Coffee (Due to coming from Africa to the Middle East then to Italy) and even Espresso Machines that dominate Melbourne life these days only came to Australia and London after WW2.

Globalization has seen the Western World be able to now easily interact with the rest of the world, and so of course other cultures are so going to have an influence and be able to do even more quickly. I agree there is a part of the CBD heavily populated by stores selling Asian Food and Drinks but whose not to say that is not something that is slowly becoming another element of Western Life like Cigarettes, Tea, and Coffee all did.

Personally I like to this part of the City because it does operate like Beijing that means it never falls asleep and is always alive, Melbourne in the nineties was just homeless people after 6pm so for me alongside Kennett's reforms in trading hours it has aided our CBD greatly. Being a City that now doesn't sleep is a major appeal for why Tourist from other countries and particularly other Australian Cities love our city.

More importantly what do these stores and Melbourne's Fast Growing Chinese Population have done to cause any real significant disharmony in the Melbourne Community: very little. Their religion/philosophy on life is hardly at real odds with traditional Christian values.

Now of course you can argue that their is obviously a language barrier and that a lot dont really converse in English but you can say that about the first generation of any Immigrants that come to Australia from Europe in the Mid 20 Century.

But their Kids go to Australian Schools, speech English to their friends in Australian Accents then choose a Footy Team and then away we go as before you know Dad is taking them to a Hawthorn games at the MCG sitting alongside in your words "The Westerners".

The things we've picked up over the years like coffee etc are purely cultural rather than demographical. I guess because I mentioned pubs I kinda steered the conversation in that direction only. My concern over bubble tea shops was simply that I think they mirror the demographics of what Melbourne has become and will further become. I have little issue with the Chinese in terms of what they bring to the city of Melbourne. They create businesses and tend not to commit crimes, however I'd rather live in 1992 Melbourne than modern day Beijing.

If you think the children of all the Chinese rich kids are going to be attending Hawthorn games in the future, you're wrong. They're coming in way too quickly and they are not integrating like they used to - and even worse,  they're not even encouraged to fit in. I'm actually sick of people comparing the immigration of periods of the 50-90's in this country to modern day immigration, its not the same. It comes down to the cultures of certain regions of the world, some dominate and others integrate. Asians and middle easterners tend to dominate in numbers and do not want to learn the language when they don't have to. Europeans and South Americans are the opposite. Here's an example: Brisbane/Gold Coast have a fuck load of South Americans flooding in (mostly Columbians and Brazilians) but they want to mingle with Aussies and learn not only the language but the LINGO! They have gatherings in parks where they have BBQ's/slabs of beer and invite Aussies to chat and teach them to pronounce certain words, learn about aussie culture and help them find work. In 20 years I have seen and group of Asians, Indians or Arabs do that. To be honest judeo/christian values are more important than race. A good example of that is Christian Lebanese vs Muslim Lebanese. One group has fit in very well and the other... not so much.

Bottom line - Western judeo/christian values are being attacked on 2 fronts. The battle with the radical left and (non judeo/christian) mass migration.

 

Edited by HeartFc
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14 hours ago, HeartFc said:

The things we've picked up over the years like coffee etc are purely cultural rather than demographical. I guess because I mentioned pubs I kinda steered the conversation in that direction only. My concern over bubble tea shops was simply that I think they mirror the demographics of what Melbourne has become and will further become. I have little issue with the Chinese in terms of what they bring to the city of Melbourne. They create businesses and tend not to commit crimes, however I'd rather live in 1992 Melbourne than modern day Beijing.

If you think the children of all the Chinese rich kids are going to be attending Hawthorn games in the future, you're wrong. They're coming in way too quickly and they are not integrating like they used to - and even worse,  they're not even encouraged to fit in. I'm actually sick of people comparing the immigration of periods of the 50-90's in this country to modern day immigration, its not the same. It comes down to the cultures of certain regions of the world, some dominate and others integrate. Asians and middle easterners tend to dominate in numbers and do not want to learn the language when they don't have to. Europeans and South Americans are the opposite. Here's an example: Brisbane/Gold Coast have a fuck load of South Americans flooding in (mostly Columbians and Brazilians) but they want to mingle with Aussies and learn not only the language but the LINGO! They have gatherings in parks where they have BBQ's/slabs of beer and invite Aussies to chat and teach them to pronounce certain words, learn about aussie culture and help them find work. In 20 years I have seen and group of Asians, Indians or Arabs do that. To be honest judeo/christian values are more important than race. A good example of that is Christian Lebanese vs Muslim Lebanese. One group has fit in very well and the other... not so much.

Bottom line - Western judeo/christian values are being attacked on 2 fronts. The battle with the radical left and (non judeo/christian) mass migration.

 

Victoria was at worst in 1992... it was such a bad shape the ALP Government had to sell the State Bank when they did not want too. Even South Australia's economy was doing far better than ours.

If the Chinese did not want their children to integrate they would create their own schools rather than sending their kids to the elite private schools or pay large sums of money to live in certain state school districts. They are not stupid and they realize the importance of their children speaking English.

Edited by cadete
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16 hours ago, NewConvert said:

The Yoof in this forum! Back in the 70s All Pubs (well legit ones anyway) closed at 6pm. And although places like Williamstown, Port Melbourne, etc did have pubs in every corner they were all closed by 6pm. You had a choice of VB, Carlton, Fosters (for the chicks) and Abbotsford for stout. Wine was cask but occassionally we could try something different like Melbourne Bitter. If you wanted Tooheys or Castlemaine or Swan you moved to those states. It was in the mid 80s when John Cain junior deregulated the alcohol industry at the state level and Hawke deregulated the industry nationally. BYOs slowly started to become an extinct species and Australian food culture began to develop.

So a time travel machine back 48 years would simply show you sober walking a deserted CBD. and deserted suburbs.

I am just curious as to what state you think Castlemaine is in?

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58 minutes ago, malloy said:

I am just curious as to what state you think Castlemaine is in?

He means the Company "Castlemaine" which was the major Beer Brand in QLD for decades as it produced XXXX.

Thats why he has listed alongside "Swan" and "Tooheys" as the Beer Companies that had monopolies at the time operating in SA and NSW like the one he mentions "Carlton" had here.

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