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On 08/12/2017 at 6:11 AM, NewConvert said:

Just out of curiosity, if the Coalition lose the election, and they lose it big, how would you go about rebuilding the Liberal party or the National party.

Best bet would be an old timer takes the reigns for a year and then someone younger like possibly Frydenberg tries to sell a new story.

I think a New Labor AKA Tony Blair approach is needed with the party going back to an emphasis on actually being literally “liberal” in how it tackles issues.

A undisputed leader is the biggest need for both sides of politics at the moment. 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, cadete said:

Best bet would be an old timer takes the reigns for a year and then someone younger like possibly Frydenberg tries to sell a new story.

I think a New Labor AKA Tony Blair approach is needed with the party going back to an emphasis on actually being literally “liberal” in how it tackles issues.

A undisputed leader is the biggest need for both sides of politics at the moment. 

 

 

 

I think that you are right. Let the dust settle after the election, see who has survived and what they are capable of. I would also tear up the coalition agreement, tell the QLD branch to start up on their own and let the nationals decide whether they want to be part of a government or not. I would probably not allow a coalition agreement with George Christiansen in it because he is an undisciplined bomb thrower. Without the Nationals the Liberals should be able to work out "liberal" policies.

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The Australian Political system has been forged on Class and Economics and lets face it this system has proven to be a good one we are hardly living in the worst city or country here in a comparative sense.

However at the moment for whatever reason (perhaps social media) there is too much conversation about Identity Politics. Identity Politics does not align with the traditional lines on Class Politics on which the Major Political Parties are drawn and I think that is a lot of the reason why average Australians are so confused/disillusioned with things and hence all the leadership changes.

I mean Julia Gillard is going to be best remembered for giving a speech about being a Woman, Tony Abbott likewise for simply being a Catholic (Despite the fact Turnbull converted to Catholicism - I never get that one)... And is this shit really relevant to how the country is run???

The reality is that 95% of Australians still vote for the Major Parties which means they must have some belief in the Tradition of Class/Economic Politics and not Identity Politics and what needs to happens is leader with a party behind them needs get things heading in that direction again.

Hopefully Bill Shorten can do that (As we are stuck with as PM anyway - and he seems to have that support) if not like I said above then the Libs need to provide a way to present themselves in such a way and this would probably be best suited by eventually contesting the election after the upcoming one with a younger leader.
 

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3 hours ago, cadete said:

The Australian Political system has been forged on Class and Economics and lets face it this system has proven to be a good one we are hardly living in the worst city or country here in a comparative sense.

However at the moment for whatever reason (perhaps social media) there is too much conversation about Identity Politics. Identity Politics does not align with the traditional lines on Class Politics on which the Major Political Parties are drawn and I think that is a lot of the reason why average Australians are so confused/disillusioned with things and hence all the leadership changes.

I mean Julia Gillard is going to be best remembered for giving a speech about being a Woman, Tony Abbott likewise for simply being a Catholic (Despite the fact Turnbull converted to Catholicism - I never get that one)... And is this shit really relevant to how the country is run???

The reality is that 95% of Australians still vote for the Major Parties which means they must have some belief in the Tradition of Class/Economic Politics and not Identity Politics and what needs to happens is leader with a party behind them needs get things heading in that direction again.

Hopefully Bill Shorten can do that (As we are stuck with as PM anyway - and he seems to have that support) if not like I said above then the Libs need to provide a way to present themselves in such a way and this would probably be best suited by eventually contesting the election after the upcoming one with a younger leader.
 

Identity politics ? as like "Personality politics" ....or am I incorrect.

for as long as I can remember, late 60's early 70's onwards the personality/ identity/charisma  of the leader of the party has been as important to the Party as the politics/ policies of the party.

The Face of ( insert Political Party ) has been pushed as THE PARTY, this is who some people vote for, as opposed to the ideology of the party.

perhaps I've misunderstood your point ... 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, japiedog said:

Identity politics ? as like "Personality politics" ....or am I incorrect.

for as long as I can remember, late 60's early 70's onwards the personality/ identity/charisma  of the leader of the party has been as important to the Party as the politics/ policies of the party.

The Face of ( insert Political Party ) has been pushed as THE PARTY, this is who some people vote for, as opposed to the ideology of the party.

perhaps I've misunderstood your point ... 

 

 

Identity politics is politics that places overt focus on a persons non-controllable characteristics such as race, sex, age etc and sets them in a form of heirachy based on your level of oppression. For example a straight, white male's opinion is the bottom of the pyramid because they cant possible understand the things those deemed more oppressed have been through.
It's an ideology supported by the left today under the guise of anti-racism,feminism etc and places more value on groups rather than the individual ie if you are from a certain group you are expected to think a certain way etc.

More info : https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Identity_politics

Edited by bt50
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5 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Identity politics is politics that places overt focus on a persons non-controllable characteristics such as race, sex, age etc and sets them in a form of heirachy based on your level of oppression. For example a straight, white male's opinion is the bottom of the pyramid because they cant possible understand the things those deemed more oppressed have been through.
It's an ideology supported by the left today under the guise of anti-racism,feminism etc and places more value on groups rather than the individual ie if you are from a certain group you are expected to think a certain way etc.

More info : https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Identity_politics

I was pretty much going to write the same thing but to add that Identity Politics has become so popular these days it has also not spawned a Counter Movement from the Right which pretty much does the same thing but in reverse...

However in a far smaller, more subtle and less organised manner.

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Just now, cadete said:

I was pretty much going to write the same thing but to add that Identity Politics has become so popular these days it has also not spawned a Counter Movement from the Right which pretty much does the same thing but in reverse... and in a far smaller and less organised manner.

Yep 100%. There's not actually much difference between the far left and far right whatsover, only the level of tolerance from the main stream media.

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6 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Identity politics is politics that places overt focus on a persons non-controllable characteristics such as race, sex, age etc and sets them in a form of heirachy based on your level of oppression. For example a straight, white male's opinion is the bottom of the pyramid because they cant possible understand the things those deemed more oppressed have been through.
It's an ideology supported by the left today under the guise of anti-racism,feminism etc and places more value on groups rather than the individual ie if you are from a certain group you are expected to think a certain way etc.

More info : https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Identity_politics

 

1 minute ago, cadete said:

I was pretty much going to write the same thing but to add that Identity Politics has become so popular these days it has also not spawned a Counter Movement from the Right which pretty much does the same thing but in reverse...

However in a far smaller, more subtle and less organised manner.

thanks for the "lesson" 

welcome to the 21st Century .....

thanks 

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1 hour ago, japiedog said:

 

thanks for the "lesson" 

welcome to the 21st Century .....

thanks 

Did PPL vote for Thatcher because she was a Woman?

Did PPL vote for Hawke because he was a infamous Womanizer?

Did PPL vote for Keating because he was a Catholic? (As devout as Abbot - Read what he use to say publicly about Same Sex Marriage and Abortion). 

Did they vote for Howard because he was devout Monarchist/Racist and Sectarnian?

No: They voted for these PPL and left them in Government because despite the regular up's and downs of politics they all encountered and whatever  we all think of the above PPL (And I have listed some I def personally do not like much... 

They VOTED for them because they were strong leaders, who had their party by and large under control and therefore good ministers working with them in manner that the Political system works best which when based on Class and Economics.

They did not see Politics as a game where not they buy a Badge in Northcote and deciding to believe 400 identity based views to everyone else wearing that badge, or get annoyed by these PPL so they the pick of bunch of values that are packaged together things like Pick Up Forums where blokes rate FB pictures of girls.

Its like a bloke I meet the other day who just assumed that I was a follow Anti-Zionist because I support Celtic and therefore must be an Antifa Type?

Seriously why the fuck would I have any Political Opinion on the most complex Political Problem in the world (in a place I cant even picture what it feel to be like to live in) because of my soccer team I chose aged eight or my Colonial Irish Australian Background?

And as I said originally the media loves to present the fringes of the Political Landscape like the Q&A star of the week and  like those mentioned above... but its undeniable that the bulk of Australians still want the traditional model as otherwise an overwhelming majority would not still vote for the Major Parties.

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1 hour ago, japiedog said:

Identity politics ? as like "Personality politics" ....or am I incorrect.

for as long as I can remember, late 60's early 70's onwards the personality/ identity/charisma  of the leader of the party has been as important to the Party as the politics/ policies of the party.

The Face of ( insert Political Party ) has been pushed as THE PARTY, this is who some people vote for, as opposed to the ideology of the party.

perhaps I've misunderstood your point ... 

I must say (probably in relative ignorance) that I too would have gone with "Personality Politics" in the sense that IMO far too much attention is paid to the behaviours and perceived behaviours of the party leader to the exclusion of the party's principles and policies.

Also the rise of political correctness and attempts to muzzle free discussion and to suppress articulation of views that are seen (by a few arbiters) as politically incorrect.

Finally the continuous, merciless and unrelenting scrutiny of individuals by the (anti-) social media.

Off the top of my head I would say these are three major factors that have contributed to the decline of confidence in our parliamentary system and procedures.

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5 hours ago, cadete said:

The Australian Political system has been forged on Class and Economics and lets face it this system has proven to be a good one we are hardly living in the worst city or country here in a comparative sense.

However at the moment for whatever reason (perhaps social media) there is too much conversation about Identity Politics. Identity Politics does not align with the traditional lines on Class Politics on which the Major Political Parties are drawn and I think that is a lot of the reason why average Australians are so confused/disillusioned with things and hence all the leadership changes.

I mean Julia Gillard is going to be best remembered for giving a speech about being a Woman, Tony Abbott likewise for simply being a Catholic (Despite the fact Turnbull converted to Catholicism - I never get that one)... And is this shit really relevant to how the country is run???

The reality is that 95% of Australians still vote for the Major Parties which means they must have some belief in the Tradition of Class/Economic Politics and not Identity Politics and what needs to happens is leader with a party behind them needs get things heading in that direction again.

Hopefully Bill Shorten can do that (As we are stuck with as PM anyway - and he seems to have that support) if not like I said above then the Libs need to provide a way to present themselves in such a way and this would probably be best suited by eventually contesting the election after the upcoming one with a younger leader.
 

Welcome back. As an old class warrior myself it is getting lonely in inner Melbourne.

As I have mentioned before, when the ALP under Hawke/Keating moved the party to a more market based policies, that meant that the political parties had to differentiate themselves in other ways an identity politics entered the lexicon (and the term came from the right BTW). However, there are other factors involved which are historical and international as well.

The first wave of independence movements came in the very late 18th and early 19th centuries when the colonials gained independence in the Americas. The second wave came through after WWII when the colonised countries in Asia and Africa became independent. Additionally, in the USA Jim Crow was fought by the African-American. This washed over to Australia via the leadership of Charlie Perkins who pointed out that the Aborigines were only slightly better off. I recall as far as 1977 when a pastoralist in WA tried to prevent Aborigines from voting.

Migrants also came to teh fore as many rejected teh tag wog (check the very first rendition of wogs out of work). And women are now ready to break through the glass ceiling - and yes it is there because I have worked with Directors of a well known company and yes they were basically illiterate (hint). And much more capable women were shown the door just in case someone may catch on (actually in that instance, it would be hard to find a more stupid person in this country).

But you are right in one aspect - the ability to earn a reasonable income, specially males, is what drives politics across the world. The feminist can scream blue murder all they want, but the mothers, sisters and partners will always vote for the party that can deliver safe jobs to their sons, brothers or husbands.

Where I beg to differ is that the problem is not entirely a leadership problem. The problem is the washout from the GFC. As "The Economist" October 2008 headline put it, it was not meant to be this way. The confused stuttering of Alan Greenspan at the time further cemented that the unfettered, unregulated market had answers to everything was proven to be vacuous. The last time I read Terry McCann was in 2004 when he argued that there was no such thing as a monopoly and even if there was the financial markets would discipline the monopoly. Four years later that proved to be entirely wrong. Another factor that has diminished confidence has been the entry of China (and now India) into the world market. This has meant that the lower end of the employment market has been drastically reduced, and middle class jobs such as engineering can be outsourced to India for a fraction of the price simply because the cost of housing is much cheaper there than here. And the rise and rise of the plutocrats and oligarchs has meant that the "pie' may be increasing in size but more people are getting less of that pie.

Does Shorten have a way forward? I don't know but I certainly prefer Chris Bowen to Morrison.

 

3 hours ago, Tesla said:

Fuck me, unionists, US spies, Chinese spies, Transurban spies, is there anyone in the labor party who isnt dodgy? 

 

Royal commission into the labor party needed ASAP. 

But it was the Liberal Andrew Robb who who conducted the free trade treaty with China, who now gets $880k per year as a retainer (that is do nothing) from the Chinese company that bought the Port of Darwin against the advice of your close mates the USA. As for unionists, you already had a RC and after $80M and 18 months, all the lacky could say was I am sure there is more but I can't find it. BTW I have lost count of the number of unionists that were charged after the RC and juries kept returning not guilty verdicts. Maybe you need to have a RC into juries first.

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

I must say (probably in relative ignorance) that I too would have gone with "Personality Politics" in the sense that IMO far too much attention is paid to the behaviours and perceived behaviours of the party leader to the exclusion of the party's principles and policies.

Also the rise of political correctness and attempts to muzzle free discussion and to suppress articulation of views that are seen (by a few arbiters) as politically incorrect.

Finally the continuous, merciless and unrelenting scrutiny of individuals by the (anti-) social media.

Off the top of my head I would say these are three major factors that have contributed to the decline of confidence in our parliamentary system and procedures.

It has always been that way. As a kid, being a republican and an atheist meant that I kept quiet because you definitely did not go against God, Queen and Country. I am sure you must have forgotten those days.

As for leadership, well the last time I remember societies not requiring a talking head was in ancient rome and the city states of ancient greece. After that there was always an emperor, king, etc. We remember Churchill but who was the Secretary of Transport? or Communications? An as a side note, Jesus did not wish to be iconized, neither did Mohammed nor Buddha - yet all three religions have iconized their founding leader. I think that this is an innate need of humans.

And I agree that the merciless scrutiny offered by social media as well as traditional media makes it difficult for anyone to step forward. For starters, any mistakes as a youth will mean that it becomes a hanging offence 20 years later. When the Billy Gordon, ex-ALP MP in Qld, was pilloried because of some relatively minor misdemeanour in his youth and he was tardy on child support he just had to be expelled (although there were no outstanding payments and he could not be charged with anything). BUT given that most Aboriginal men have a police record then how are we going to increase Aboriginal representation in parliament? My prediction that in a few decades no one will be able to run for parliament because no one has never made a mistake.

 

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On 11/30/2017 at 8:34 PM, jw1739 said:

I don't believe that you are correct in saying that "CBA was laundering money for Islamic State...." Yes, it is believed that CBA was being used as a vehicle for money laundering by people associated with Islamic State, and that various systems within CBA were either not picking up the transactions or picking up the transactions but not responding as it should. But your statement implies that it was the CBA Bank itself that was working for Islamic State and IMO that is not the case.

Just read that Austrac is charging the CBA with over 53,000 violations of the money laundering act and further more the bank consciously made a decision as to which transactions were to be reported to the authorities. CBA is claiming a system error but Austrac is arguing otherwise.

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3 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Just read that Austrac is charging the CBA with over 53,000 violations of the money laundering act and further more the bank consciously made a decision as to which transactions were to be reported to the authorities. CBA is claiming a system error but Austrac is arguing otherwise.

tip of the iceberg.. if CBA is doing it , then I'll bet my left knacker that the other big banks are as well

 

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3 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Just read that Austrac is charging the CBA with over 53,000 violations of the money laundering act and further more the bank consciously made a decision as to which transactions were to be reported to the authorities. CBA is claiming a system error but Austrac is arguing otherwise.

@NewConvert Yes, I read that last night too. If there is anything of substance behind these latest revelations/allegations then this is indeed looking a lot more serious than I believed possible.

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On 09/12/2017 at 11:35 AM, thisphantomfortress said:

Feels that way. Tbh I'd be far more interested in joining if it weren't for their stance on guns, which I acknowledge are entirely in line with classical libertarianism 

I went to their equivalent of state council once, I do not recommend joining.

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3 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Bulldoze a building in Federation Square and put up an Apple store in its place? WTF?

Still trying to figure out which building they are talking about. Is it  the one where the pizza place is? More to the point, the claim is that the building has not been a commercial success, so lets assume (and it is a big assumption) that Apple is footing the full bill for demolition and construction (without additional tax breaks) and then comercially the building is a flop. What are the terms that Apple got to stay in a building which is unsuccessful?

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2 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

IMO we can do better than reduce everything to profit and loss. There is such a thing as quality of life.

More open space is the QoL improvement here. The rest is just replacing an unviable building with a viable one. 

 

4 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Still trying to figure out which building they are talking about. Is it  the one where the pizza place is? More to the point, the claim is that the building has not been a commercial success, so lets assume (and it is a big assumption) that Apple is footing the full bill for demolition and construction (without additional tax breaks) and then comercially the building is a flop. What are the terms that Apple got to stay in a building which is unsuccessful?

Apple is footing the bill for demolition and construction as well as renting the new building. 

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10 hours ago, Tesla said:

More open space is the QoL improvement here. The rest is just replacing an unviable building with a viable one. 

 

Apple is footing the bill for demolition and construction as well as renting the new building. 

Having seen the design Im not 100% on board with it, I think they should have done something better to fit in with the rest of the quirky look of Fed Sq. 

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19 minutes ago, Deeming said:

Knocking down an ugly building and replacing it with an even uglier building. 

Also prime real estate, hopefully they are paying through the nose for it...but I doubt it.

It has always been a major negative with Apple that they had no proper store in the CBD for appointments and the such FWIW.

For example this location would be walking distance for me rather than a drive to Highpoint or Chadstone - The nearest two listed locations near the CBD. Also FWIW an Apple Store at Fed Square is only going increase the amount of people using Fed Square as a Public Space as they are always packed.

Edited by cadete
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  • 1 month later...
6 minutes ago, Deeming said:

Labor's David Feeney has resigned likely to be replaced in the by-election with the ACTU president Ged Kearney.
Greens are re-running Alex Bhathal and she is likely to win delivering another seat to the Greens.

That's great and all, but let's talk about the real story of the last few days.

Government so incompetent they sold off filling cabinets full of top secret documents :droy:

Now of course instead of making sure they're not so retarded in future they'll be making it illegal for journalists to report classified documents. 

I guess nanny state needs to nanny state itself a little, can't very taking responsibility for its fuck ups. 

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57 minutes ago, Deeming said:

Labor's David Feeney has resigned likely to be replaced in the by-election with the ACTU president Ged Kearney.
Greens are re-running Alex Bhathal and she is likely to win delivering another seat to the Greens.

TBH its not as bad a negative for the ALP as you think -  The PPL might vote for what they believe is a Koala Saver in a By-Election, however they will then undoubtedly get to see instead her spin some typical Unaccountable Greens Stalinist Policy.

So then at the upcoming election the voters (Already in a traditional ALP seat) will get to choose between playing a role directly in replacing the Pathetic Turnbull Government or more of her shit and pointless policies.

 

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1 hour ago, Tesla said:

That's great and all, but let's talk about the real story of the last few days.

Government so incompetent they sold off filling cabinets full of top secret documents :droy:

Now of course instead of making sure they're not so retarded in future they'll be making it illegal for journalists to report classified documents. 

I guess nanny state needs to nanny state itself a little, can't very taking responsibility for its fuck ups. 

My colleagues in Germany laughed at this, before even I knew what happened. Same thing with the dual citizenship issue.

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3 hours ago, Tesla said:

That's great and all, but let's talk about the real story of the last few days.

Government so incompetent they sold off filling cabinets full of top secret documents :droy:

Now of course instead of making sure they're not so retarded in future they'll be making it illegal for journalists to report classified documents. 

I guess nanny state needs to nanny state itself a little, can't very taking responsibility for its fuck ups. 

Def public servants rather than either party that lost it. Docs covered 5 governments. Burn down the bereaucracy. 

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14 hours ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Def public servants rather than either party that lost it. Docs covered 5 governments. Burn down the bereaucracy. 

So true, when will PPL learn that we need a small Government...

Government should consist of the following:

Three to Five blokes max (All with Accounting Degrees), an American Economics Textbook dated Pre-1930, a couple of Cryptocurrency Trading Accounts, an Online Betting Account, alongside a 40% discount card at YD and some overpriced "Young Real Estate" European Rental Cars at hand to rock up to official business in with some Avicii playing .

NOTE: Also dudes who wear Ties wider than 2 inches need not apply.

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1 hour ago, cadete said:

So true, when will PPL learn that we need a small Government...

Government should consist of the following:

Three to Five blokes max (All with Accounting Degrees), an American Economics Textbook dated Pre-1930, a couple of Cryptocurrency Trading Accounts, an Online Betting Account, alongside a 40% discount card at YD and some overpriced "Young Real Estate" European Rental Cars at hand to rock up to official business in with some Avicii playing .

NOTE: Also dudes who wear Ties wider than 2 inches need not apply.

You're going to need more than "three to five blokes." You've got to have balance of the sexes (or more women than men), ages, socio-economic classes, religions, allow for LGBTIQ+, transgenders, indigenous, and all other trans- and inter-groups, ethnicities, and whatever else you can think of. Should bring you up to about 150 (which just by chance is the size of the current Lower House and is why we have "big government" in the first place).

Nice try, but you'll have to try harder.

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5 hours ago, jw1739 said:

You're going to need more than "three to five blokes." You've got to have balance of the sexes (or more women than men), ages, socio-economic classes, religions, allow for LGBTIQ+, transgenders, indigenous, and all other trans- and inter-groups, ethnicities, and whatever else you can think of. Should bring you up to about 150 (which just by chance is the size of the current Lower House and is why we have "big government" in the first place).

Nice try, but you'll have to try harder.

Actually we could have One person who identifies with all of the above Identities at the same time... as long as they have the Textbook, Crypto/Betting accounts, YD suit and Expensive European Rental Car we should still be alright.

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9 minutes ago, cadete said:

Actually we could have One person who identifies with all of the above Identities at the same time... as long as they have the Textbook, Crypto/Betting accounts, YD suit and Expensive European Rental Card we should still be alright.

There's a novel along those lines - well not quite government - where one person is selected to be "the voter" at an election (IIRC for a U.S. President and numerous other posts/positions.)

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