Domestic Politics

[Tesla]

1 hour ago, bt50 said:

At the end of the day its free speech and one can say whatever they want.

Incorrect. The right to free speech is pretty limited in this country, and it's especially limited when it comes to racial stuff. 

[Shahanga]

19 minutes ago, Tesla said:

Incorrect. The right to free speech is pretty limited in this country, and it's especially limited when it comes to racial stuff. 

Unfortunately a substantial amount of people think freedom of speech means "people should be allowed to say stuff you agree with", when in fact it's the opposite.

[bt50]

1 hour ago, Tesla said:

Incorrect. The right to free speech is pretty limited in this country, and it's especially limited when it comes to racial stuff. 

Yeh thats the reality these days, I didnt mean it literally.

I often find it ironic that the 'freedom fighters' are often the ones that want to limit what people can say. 

 

BTW, anyone read Rita Panahi's article today? Probably the best opinion piece writer going around mainstream aussie media atm imo.

 

There’s no point in being a victim

May 30, 2016 12:00am

RITA PANAHIHerald Sun

 

WHERE do you rank in the Oppression Olympics? Are you floundering at the bottom of the table among the privileged white, Christian, heteronormative cisgender males with no moral authority to speak on any issue? Or are you going for gold as a transgendered pansexual Muslim woman of colour?

There was a time when a person’s status was determined by their birth; those fortunate enough to belong to the aristocracy were judged to be our moral and intellectual superiors.

Now there’s a new and even more toxic pecking order that determines one’s acceptability and authority to speak on a range of issues. The new aristocracy is determined by one’s victimhood status; the more grievance points you accumulate, the greater your mandate to preach.

Of course, if you don’t identify as a victim then your oppression ranking plummets to Anglo-male depths, but if you play the game right, you can use your grievance status to score plum roles as well as dodge all responsibility if you happen to fail miserably. One popular tactic among the victimhood brigade is the refusal to accept any criticism that comes from those who are of a different race, religion, gender, sexuality or whatever else differentiates you.

Men should not speak about feminism, whites should butt out of black or ethnic debates, and non-Muslims should never pass judgment on Islam.

Last week soon-to-be-retired Senator Nova Peris rejected the opinions of those who don’t share her oppression ranking.

“Until you are an Aboriginal person, don’t criticise me,” she said.

Really? Can I play that card the next time I receive unhinged abuse from the always bitter and outraged feminist frightbats who are invariably middle-class white women? From now on my standard response to any and all criticism will be: “Unless you are an American-born Persian Australian, don’t judge me.”

Let’s remember that Peris isn’t some disempowered victim; indeed she’s been treated better than most in her short political career.

Allegations that Peris used taxpayer money to carry out an extramarital affair would have ended most political careers but she survived and earned a few extra grievance points by painting herself as the victim.

While working for the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies, Peris was involved in a decision to bring her lover, Olympian Ato Boldon, to Australia for a 10-day tryst interrupted by a few athletic workshops.

However when the scandal was revealed, and again last week, there was no shortage of media pundits eager to characterise any criticism of Peris as racially motivated.

We see the same simplistic arguments put forward claiming only indigenous people are entitled to an opinion on Australia Day, or Invasion Day, or whenever matters concerning the indigenous community are debated.

How absurd to think that all people of a particular race or religion share the same values and viewpoints and will have their “side” adequately covered by an ethnically-appropriate representative.

Those who demand that every member of a particular minority group think and vote the same way are guilty of the sort of closeminded prejudice that the Left used to rail against.

It’s not just a local phenomenon — Egyptian feminist Mona Eltahawy, a favourite of the Q&A set, recently demanded that only Muslim women speak about the religion’s many problems, particularly with veiling.

“If you’re white/not a Muslim woman: shut up and listen to us, Muslim women,” she tweeted.

Victimhood does not equal moral superiority, particularly when in your eagerness to establish your victimhood status you ignore real victims.

Western feminists who turn their back on oppressed women while getting worked up about non-issues such as gendered toys and “sexist air conditioners” are not noble warriors, merely tiresome trolls.

Ordinarily I’d be the type of minority the average Leftie would be delighted to embrace given my many oppression points: woman of colour, Middle Eastern refugee, atheist, single mother ... if I was also a lesbian with a disability I’d have hit the diversity jackpot.

And that’s part of the problem. Many progressives consider diversity a disability to be overcome. The victimhood they seek signifies for them a struggle that is often entirely in their own minds.

My failure to see my ethnic origin as some sort of a handicap is deemed unacceptable.

The fact that I don’t view Australia as an inherently racist country ruled by a monstrous patriarchy riles them even more.

Unlike most Western feminists who have abandoned their sisters in the Muslim world, I won’t stay silent about the systematic subjugation of women in the name of Islam.

That I won’t frame my opinions in a manner that pushes daft social justice agendas that are short on justice and high on propagating falsehoods is the final deal breaker.

All of that combines to negate any oppression points I’ve accumulated and casts me as an enemy of your average Leftist, or progressive as they prefer to be called. Those people believe that if you don’t subscribe to their dippy worldview you’re suffering from internal misogyny and racism. That’s intellectually vacuous and it’s at the heart of the social justice activism that’s taken hold of much of academia.

Is it any surprise universities are increasingly banning free speech and creating “safe spaces” to spare their delicate student populations from the only diversity they hate — the diversity of opinion?

Identity politics that portrays victimhood as something to be lauded is counter-productive and divisive.

Only a bigot would dismiss someone’s opinion based on their race, religion, gender or sexuality.

Edited May 30, 2016 by bt50

[cadete]

19 hours ago, bt50 said:

Yeh thats the reality these days, I didnt mean it literally.

I often find it ironic that the 'freedom fighters' are often the ones that want to limit what people can say. 

 

BTW, anyone read Rita Panahi's article today? Probably the best opinion piece writer going around mainstream aussie media atm imo.

 

There’s no point in being a victim

May 30, 2016 12:00am

RITA PANAHIHerald Sun

 

WHERE do you rank in the Oppression Olympics? Are you floundering at the bottom of the table among the privileged white, Christian, heteronormative cisgender males with no moral authority to speak on any issue? Or are you going for gold as a transgendered pansexual Muslim woman of colour?

There was a time when a person’s status was determined by their birth; those fortunate enough to belong to the aristocracy were judged to be our moral and intellectual superiors.

Now there’s a new and even more toxic pecking order that determines one’s acceptability and authority to speak on a range of issues. The new aristocracy is determined by one’s victimhood status; the more grievance points you accumulate, the greater your mandate to preach.

Of course, if you don’t identify as a victim then your oppression ranking plummets to Anglo-male depths, but if you play the game right, you can use your grievance status to score plum roles as well as dodge all responsibility if you happen to fail miserably. One popular tactic among the victimhood brigade is the refusal to accept any criticism that comes from those who are of a different race, religion, gender, sexuality or whatever else differentiates you.

Men should not speak about feminism, whites should butt out of black or ethnic debates, and non-Muslims should never pass judgment on Islam.

Last week soon-to-be-retired Senator Nova Peris rejected the opinions of those who don’t share her oppression ranking.

“Until you are an Aboriginal person, don’t criticise me,” she said.

Really? Can I play that card the next time I receive unhinged abuse from the always bitter and outraged feminist frightbats who are invariably middle-class white women? From now on my standard response to any and all criticism will be: “Unless you are an American-born Persian Australian, don’t judge me.”

Let’s remember that Peris isn’t some disempowered victim; indeed she’s been treated better than most in her short political career.

Allegations that Peris used taxpayer money to carry out an extramarital affair would have ended most political careers but she survived and earned a few extra grievance points by painting herself as the victim.

While working for the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies, Peris was involved in a decision to bring her lover, Olympian Ato Boldon, to Australia for a 10-day tryst interrupted by a few athletic workshops.

However when the scandal was revealed, and again last week, there was no shortage of media pundits eager to characterise any criticism of Peris as racially motivated.

We see the same simplistic arguments put forward claiming only indigenous people are entitled to an opinion on Australia Day, or Invasion Day, or whenever matters concerning the indigenous community are debated.

How absurd to think that all people of a particular race or religion share the same values and viewpoints and will have their “side” adequately covered by an ethnically-appropriate representative.

Those who demand that every member of a particular minority group think and vote the same way are guilty of the sort of closeminded prejudice that the Left used to rail against.

It’s not just a local phenomenon — Egyptian feminist Mona Eltahawy, a favourite of the Q&A set, recently demanded that only Muslim women speak about the religion’s many problems, particularly with veiling.

“If you’re white/not a Muslim woman: shut up and listen to us, Muslim women,” she tweeted.

Victimhood does not equal moral superiority, particularly when in your eagerness to establish your victimhood status you ignore real victims.

Western feminists who turn their back on oppressed women while getting worked up about non-issues such as gendered toys and “sexist air conditioners” are not noble warriors, merely tiresome trolls.

Ordinarily I’d be the type of minority the average Leftie would be delighted to embrace given my many oppression points: woman of colour, Middle Eastern refugee, atheist, single mother ... if I was also a lesbian with a disability I’d have hit the diversity jackpot.

And that’s part of the problem. Many progressives consider diversity a disability to be overcome. The victimhood they seek signifies for them a struggle that is often entirely in their own minds.

My failure to see my ethnic origin as some sort of a handicap is deemed unacceptable.

The fact that I don’t view Australia as an inherently racist country ruled by a monstrous patriarchy riles them even more.

Unlike most Western feminists who have abandoned their sisters in the Muslim world, I won’t stay silent about the systematic subjugation of women in the name of Islam.

That I won’t frame my opinions in a manner that pushes daft social justice agendas that are short on justice and high on propagating falsehoods is the final deal breaker.

All of that combines to negate any oppression points I’ve accumulated and casts me as an enemy of your average Leftist, or progressive as they prefer to be called. Those people believe that if you don’t subscribe to their dippy worldview you’re suffering from internal misogyny and racism. That’s intellectually vacuous and it’s at the heart of the social justice activism that’s taken hold of much of academia.

Is it any surprise universities are increasingly banning free speech and creating “safe spaces” to spare their delicate student populations from the only diversity they hate — the diversity of opinion?

Identity politics that portrays victimhood as something to be lauded is counter-productive and divisive.

Only a bigot would dismiss someone’s opinion based on their race, religion, gender or sexuality.

Positive Discrimination - The dumbest thing Pinko's do...

[thisphantomfortress]

So I got a lovely glossy brochure in the post today from Mr Bandt. Anyway after reading through it I found in interesting to note that they kept referring to the Libs as "the conservatives"

[HeartFc]

I don't bother having political conversations with millennials anymore, even when talking about the economic failures of the left Ill still somehow get called a racist and a nazi. The last social event I attended I was treated like I had leprosy for having conservative views. People went completely ape shit when I said refugees shouldn't be smothered with welfare because it causes long term dependancy. I referred a few facts and figures which supported my argument but they were dismissed as "right wing" propaganda. I quickly told them they were gathered by left wing and independent sources, they just sat there like kids being told Santa wasn't real. Fucking incredible. 

Once I mentioned that Id vote for Trump (if I was American) it was the last straw and a few people left the joint within 5 minutes. At one stage I was sitting on a couch alone with people in all the corners of the room looking at me like posh country club types would if they saw a homeless man. For a brief moment there I genuinely felt around 12.5% of what elephant man went through. 

I don't think I've had a meaningful political conversation with a person under the age of 35 for a while. Problem is none have read anything on any given topic, their research consists of browsing buzzfeed and Im pretty sure most of them have never even met a right leaning person. Most people are so fucking smug and full of themselves they don't even believe that I'm being serious, they'll laugh, slap their knees then look at me like Ive told them I'm a vampire. 

The brainwashing of my generation has been very effective, id go as far as saying 85% of people I discuss politics with are clear cut cultural marxists and I've never met a person more conservative than me, Not even close.

 

 

[Tesla]

What the fuck is wrong with South Australia?

I understand it's a bit of a redneck state, so it makes perfect sense that they elect a Family First senator (which basically the Australian version of the Republicans).

But what's with Nick Xenophon? How does this guy get a vote? Apparently over 20% of people in SA will vote for his party, and looking at 3-4 senate seats and maybe even something in the lower house.

Seriously can't South Australia just orchestrate a mass-suicide? Or can we just kick them out of the Federation?

Has to be the biggest flog in Australia politics, worse than Clive palmer TBH. Claims to be a centrist, but votes with the Greens most the time. And I don't know how you can claim to be in the centre in Australian politics when seemingly your main policy is banning all forms of gambling. Clearly the bloke is a bit of a nutcase, with his personality cult party and being a massive control freak, again seems to be worse than even Clive Palmer in this regard as well.

 

Fuck me, the DD is going to be a massive failure when the Coalition is going to have to either get the Greens or Xenophon on board to pass shit. Going to end up wishing for the old senate.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Tesla

[hedaik]

Found out last night that Mrs Hedaik used to work with the staffer that leaked the NBN files. I don't remember meeting him but apparently I thought he was a dickhead. 

[Tommykins]

South Australia certainly has a "diverse" set of characters in the state.

Corey Bernardi, Penny Wong, Sarah Hanson-Young, Bob Day and Simon Birmingham. Birmingham arguably the center of the lot?

[thisphantomfortress]

23 minutes ago, Tommykins said:

South Australia certainly has a "diverse" set of characters in the state.

Corey Bernardi, Penny Wong, Sarah Hanson-Young, Bob Day and Simon Birmingham. Birmingham arguably the center of the lot?

Corey Bernardi is a religious nutter.

Bob Day, also a religious nutter

Sarah Hanson-Young has never left the university politics mentality.

Penny Wong like all good ALP MPs and Senators is a ex-union.

God help them all, Birmingham is probably the most stable of them all.

[NewConvert]

6 hours ago, Tesla said:

What the fuck is wrong with South Australia?

I understand it's a bit of a redneck state, so it makes perfect sense that they elect a Family First senator (which basically the Australian version of the Republicans).

But what's with Nick Xenophon? How does this guy get a vote? Apparently over 20% of people in SA will vote for his party, and looking at 3-4 senate seats and maybe even something in the lower house.

Seriously can't South Australia just orchestrate a mass-suicide? Or can we just kick them out of the Federation?

Has to be the biggest flog in Australia politics, worse than Clive palmer TBH. Claims to be a centrist, but votes with the Greens most the time. And I don't know how you can claim to be in the centre in Australian politics when seemingly your main policy is banning all forms of gambling. Clearly the bloke is a bit of a nutcase, with his personality cult party and being a massive control freak, again seems to be worse than even Clive Palmer in this regard as well.

 

Fuck me, the DD is going to be a massive failure when the Coalition is going to have to either get the Greens or Xenophon on board to pass shit. Going to end up wishing for the old senate.

You were probably too young at the time but way back in the 70s and 80s the fight against gambling and lifting alcohol restrictions was a nationwide phenomenon. Hobart had a casino (the only one in Oz) and NSW had pokies. And IIRC it has been only this decade that the last dry zone in Melbourne was phased out - against the wishes of the locals. It may take a few more generations for it to fade away but as long as the social losses remain there will be opposition.

[cadete]

6 hours ago, Tesla said:

What the fuck is wrong with South Australia?

I understand it's a bit of a redneck state, so it makes perfect sense that they elect a Family First senator (which basically the Australian version of the Republicans).

But what's with Nick Xenophon? How does this guy get a vote? Apparently over 20% of people in SA will vote for his party, and looking at 3-4 senate seats and maybe even something in the lower house.

You have only lived in Victoria so its hard to understand but PPL that live in the less populated states can often have a massive chip on their shoulder in regards to how they feel that their state can be often overlooked by Canberra and the National Press at large. 

 I saw this constantly in Perf with Western Australians had South Australians are probably even worse, they have a lot of State Pride and constantly think the Eastern States (Namely Victoria as this emphasised by AFL) are out to undermine them.

It makes no sense but its because of this that these smaller states get behind Independent Senators like Xenophon who they feel are representing their State at a Federal Level. Of course these PPL also can be elected in such states due to Proportional Representation.

I guess the funny thing is that whilst being annoying busy bodies and preventing more effective government these types are actually doing what the Constitution intended Senators to do in defending their State Rights.

[thisphantomfortress]

3 minutes ago, cadete said:

You have only lived in Victoria so its hard to understand but PPL that live in the less populated states can often have a massive chip on their shoulder in regards to how they feel that their state can be often overlooked by Canberra and the National Press at large.

 I saw this constantly in Perf with Western Australians had South Australians are probably even worse, they have a lot of State Pride and constantly think the Eastern States (Namely Victoria as this emphasised by AFL) are out to undermine them.

It makes no sense but its because of this that these smaller states get behind Independent Senators like Xenophon who they feel are representing their State at a Federal Level. Of course these PPL also can be elected in such states due to Proportional Representation.

I guess the funny thing is that whilst being annoying busy bodies and preventing more effective government these types are actually doing what the Constitution intended Senators to do in defending their State Rights.

TBH they would never even factor into my thinking.

[cadete]

22 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

TBH they would never even factor into my thinking.

In Perf they also are constantly referring to the collective term "The Eastern States"... and what is crazy is that normal, educated PPL over there are amazed when you tell them that nobody outside of Perth uses language or even talks about Perth. 

Anyway these are the two most common complaints heard in WA by idiots and normal PPL alike:

1. The Eastern States ignore us in Politics and on TV even though we make all their money and in live in such a great state and city... blah, blah, blah.

2. The AFL is rigged in favour of the Victorian teams because they created the league and hate Western Australians (Like we hate Eastern Staters) therefore the Umpires and Fixturing and whole competition is always biased against Interstate teams.

This view is actually more held by WCE fans (Who make up at least 60% of the State) who like to view their Club's Culture along its original State Lines due to the Franchise nature of the club lacking other club culture. Of course the AFL went out of its way to rig the draft to enable the WCE to win their 90's flags but even when Sports Commenters like Dennis Cometti mention this fact it is ignored.

I have never lived in Adelaide but went to College here in Melbourne with some PPL who came from there and been over there a few times and they also felt a belittling of their state by Australia's wider population and also Football Rivalry seemed to enhance such a feeling. They also hate Victorians probably even more than Sandgropers do... which is a lot.

One other thing that is funny about PPL in Perth is that they are so convinced with this "AFL is rigged by the Victorians Theory" and into State Pride that a lot of Western Australians will support the other WA side when they are not playing a Derby. Since Fremantle has had more success recently this has changed a bit but about 50% of WCE fans still would do so (At its height it would have been like 60% plus) and probably 30% of Freo fans do likewise as well.

The reality is that State Pride in Australia seems to only really exist where you need to try justify the State you live in is as good as other parts of the Country. I think that is why nobody in Melbourne really bothers with it as we never need to do as such.

Edited May 31, 2016 by cadete

[bt50]

Speaking of Dan Andrews, he's just about to undo all his good work with this Firefighters Union shit. Fuck me dead.

[malloy]

On 01/06/2016 at 11:03 AM, bt50 said:

Speaking of Dan Andrews, he's just about to undo all his good work with this Firefighters Union shit. Fuck me dead.

Most regulars on here would know that I am not the biggest fan of unions at all, but this shit beggars belief.  

How anyone can think a union having  what is essentially veto powers over CFA management is a good idea is beyond me.

[Shahanga]

8 hours ago, malloy said:

Most regulars on here would know that I am not the biggest fan of unions at all, but this shit beggars belief.  

How anyone can think a union having  what is essentially veto powers over CFA management is a good idea is beyond me.

Unions can barely run themselves without the managers ending up in jail.

Dan must be on some good gear right now to think this is a good idea.

[bt50]

44 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Unions can barely run themselves without the managers ending up in jail.

Dan must be on some good gear right now to think this is a good idea.

Dan only got into the ALP leadership because of his relationship with the unions...

Tbh thats why ive been somewhat (mildly) impressed with him; he hasn't been the complete pushover to their will until now.

[NewConvert]

Just in case you were not aware of it, the ALP was formed as the political branch of the trade union movement. So it should not be unusual for union members to become politicians. As for the CFA issue I have not read the details (nor am I going to) so I won't make any comments but as my long years have taught me, if the 'bush' wants something then alarm bells start ringing because they are just a bunch of rent seekers.

[cadete]

44 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

Just in case you were not aware of it, the ALP was formed as the political branch of the trade union movement. So it should not be unusual for union members to become politicians. As for the CFA issue I have not read the details (nor am I going to) so I won't make any comments but as my long years have taught me, if the 'bush' wants something then alarm bells start ringing because they are just a bunch of rent seekers.

Every ALP sitting member still has to be a member of a Union, mind you most are members of "Miscellaneous Unions".

FWIW some Unions have too much power, but they are clearly still needed like a case in the news of the cleaner sacked for getting to work half an hour early and been sacked for using a Nespresso Pod. 

[bt50]

2 minutes ago, cadete said:

Every ALP sitting member still has to be a member of a Union, mind you most are members of "Miscellaneous Unions".

FWIW some Unions have too much power, but they are clearly still needed like a case in the news of the cleaner sacked for getting to work half an hour early and been sacked for using a Nespresso Pod. 

Do you really think they were sacked for those reasons? That might have been what the 'sackable offence' might have been, but in all likelihood they were just shit at their job and due to workplace laws they had to pick something out.

Not saying the odd bullshit sacking doesnt happen, but in my experience bosses do all they can to keep the good workers because they know thats who makes them money. (Also aware im taking a bit of a small business focus there.)

[cadete]

8 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Do you really think they were sacked for those reasons? That might have been what the 'sackable offence' might have been, but in all likelihood they were just shit at their job and due to workplace laws they had to pick something out.

Not saying the odd bullshit sacking doesnt happen, but in my experience bosses do all they can to keep the good workers because they know thats who makes them money. (Also aware im taking a bit of a small business focus there.)

In the Coffee scenario it was literally the only sackable offence, and the Judge decided the case on the spot and called the company's behaviour deployable... the reason I know this is because it was actually my younger brother's case.

And yes I know it is humorous that Cad's younger brother is a Union Legal Officer.

[bt50]

13 minutes ago, cadete said:

In the Coffee scenario it was literally the only sackable offence, and the Judge decided the case on the spot and called the company's behaviour deployable... the reason I know this is because it was actually my younger brother's case.

And yes I know it is humorous that Cad's younger brother is a Union Legal Officer.

I agree, that is humorous.
At the end of the day Unions have a place, as you demonstrated above but the fact they can put business' to the sword via strikes and lengthy dispute resolution is baffling. So many people that are shit workers can get away with doing nothing with the current laws the way they are.

Personally I think they should just ban industrial action. Would solve a hell of a lot of problems and take the influence away from the unions and put it back in the hands of the Fair Work Commission. Ironically i don't often agree with them either but at least it cuts all the business crippling bullshit that the business owners have to go through, often unjustly.

[NewConvert]

17 minutes ago, bt50 said:

I agree, that is humorous.
At the end of the day Unions have a place, as you demonstrated above but the fact they can put business' to the sword via strikes and lengthy dispute resolution is baffling. So many people that are shit workers can get away with doing nothing with the current laws the way they are.

Personally I think they should just ban industrial action. Would solve a hell of a lot of problems and take the influence away from the unions and put it back in the hands of the Fair Work Commission. Ironically i don't often agree with them either but at least it cuts all the business crippling bullshit that the business owners have to go through, often unjustly.

Decades ago I was sent to an industrial relations three day course by my then employer. The course was given by an employer's IR expert whose experience included constructions sites and the mining industry and what he said was most instructive and has stayed with me all my working life. In particular he said that if the workshop changed union reps things were going to go wrong quite quickly because workshops don't generally like to change union reps, and so management had not been listening. A year later I heard the same message from the a trade union rep. And in every case of serious industrial action since then it has almost always been lack of listening by the floor shop management. The two instances that I am aware of where the trade union reps screwed up the workplace became de-unionised.

The problem with handing over everything to the FWC is that it will become a huge bureaucracy. Most workplaces have reasonable IR and the charts I have seen on IR show a steady decline in the number of working hours lost through IR actions. They spike up when the EBA time comes along but nowhere near the levels that it once was.

FWIW I tend to believe that business tend to be hit harder due to poor management rather than IR. I am grateful that I have worked with some great managers and some really shit managers. The shit managers are always arseholes because they know that they don't have anyone's respect.

[jw1739]

35 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

Decades ago I was sent to an industrial relations three day course by my then employer. The course was given by an employer's IR expert whose experience included constructions sites and the mining industry and what he said was most instructive and has stayed with me all my working life. In particular he said that if the workshop changed union reps things were going to go wrong quite quickly because workshops don't generally like to change union reps, and so management had not been listening. A year later I heard the same message from the a trade union rep. And in every case of serious industrial action since then it has almost always been lack of listening by the floor shop management. The two instances that I am aware of where the trade union reps screwed up the workplace became de-unionised.

The problem with handing over everything to the FWC is that it will become a huge bureaucracy. Most workplaces have reasonable IR and the charts I have seen on IR show a steady decline in the number of working hours lost through IR actions. They spike up when the EBA time comes along but nowhere near the levels that it once was.

FWIW I tend to believe that business tend to be hit harder due to poor management rather than IR. I am grateful that I have worked with some great managers and some really shit managers. The shit managers are always arseholes because they know that they don't have anyone's respect.

The Federated Ironworkers' Association officials that I had to deal with were complete arseholes.

[Shahanga]

Growing up in Queensland and having to endure blackouts because coal miners were on strike due to the mess running out of chocolate ice cream (I wish I was making this up) has made me very anti Union.

Now a days what frustrates me is we can't afford to build anything because all the blokes (yes they are blokes) on site doing menial tasks are paid more than professionals like me who are providing advice on what are literally life or death matters.

Personally i think australia lost the need for Unions sometime around 1950. All they do now is provide cover for the useless greedy and lazy and hold back the good workers.

As for managers, fortunately changes in society means that they are on average, light years better than they used to be.

[bt50]

11 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Personally i think australia lost the need for Unions sometime around 1950. All they do now is provide cover for the useless greedy and lazy and hold back the good workers.

So much this.

[NewConvert]

16 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Growing up in Queensland and having to endure blackouts because coal miners were on strike due to the mess running out of chocolate ice cream (I wish I was making this up) has made me very anti Union.

Now a days what frustrates me is we can't afford to build anything because all the blokes (yes they are blokes) on site doing menial tasks are paid more than professionals like me who are providing advice on what are literally life or death matters.

Personally i think australia lost the need for Unions sometime around 1950. All they do now is provide cover for the useless greedy and lazy and hold back the good workers.

As for managers, fortunately changes in society means that they are on average, light years better than they used to be.

Are you sure it was in Queensland? I heard the exact same story when I was at Robe River Iron Ore (WA) back in the 90s just a few years after it became de-unionised. And no I am not taking the piss. growing up in Victoria I lost count the number of times I had to walk home from school because the PT unions had gone on strike. Then Jeff Kennet came along and told us that crushing the PT unions would make PT profitable and the taxpayers would not have to cough up a cent. Still waiting for that Nirvana to arrive.

As for building anything in Oz I am not convinced by that arguments. I have a friend who was an architect (she gave up in frustration) who spent 50% of her time not designing or consulting but ensuring that the designs met council's street heritage or planning laws or dealing with the obligatory objections. Which is why I oppose all heritage laws.

As for a better pay packet - get yourself a union. After all these days they are just salary brokers.

[cadete]

25 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

Are you sure it was in Queensland? I heard the exact same story when I was at Robe River Iron Ore (WA) back in the 90s just a few years after it became de-unionised. And no I am not taking the piss. growing up in Victoria I lost count the number of times I had to walk home from school because the PT unions had gone on strike. Then Jeff Kennet came along and told us that crushing the PT unions would make PT profitable and the taxpayers would not have to cough up a cent. Still waiting for that Nirvana to arrive.

As for building anything in Oz I am not convinced by that arguments. I have a friend who was an architect (she gave up in frustration) who spent 50% of her time not designing or consulting but ensuring that the designs met council's street heritage or planning laws or dealing with the obligatory objections. Which is why I oppose all heritage laws.

As for a better pay packet - get yourself a union. After all these days they are just salary brokers.

LOL - I am pretty sure he would have not have so confident this would not be the case behind closed doors, the real intention was more that he wanted PT fuck up's to be less of his Government's responsibility and the state needed cash and fast.

It's a standard rule PT never runs in a profit anywhere in Australia and that the PT Portfolio in State Government is the kiss of death.

[NewConvert]

24 minutes ago, cadete said:

LOL - I am pretty sure he would have not have so confident this would not be the case behind closed doors, the real intention was more that he wanted PT fuck up's to be less of his Government's responsibility and the state needed cash and fast.

It's a standard rule PT never runs in a profit anywhere in Australia and that the PT Portfolio in State Government is the kiss of death.

You are probably right. The other department is child welfare. Cannot win on that one. 

[Shahanga]

@NewConvert I'm pretty confident that the Gold Coast is part of Queensland!

As to why the story is like Robe River it's because that's how the mining industry used to be and is why so many operations went contractor. 

i thought you were too old to have been at school under Kennett?

Well you are right about salary, as a profession we've haven't helped ourselves by undercutting each other, Anyway I don't really care what other people get paid as long as they earn it, clearly a truck driver on 120k is stretching things.

Certaonly the red and green tape is a big part of the problem, but IR bullshit is even worse. The Swiss have just finished the longest tunnel ever, underneath the alps, for what,17B euros? Be 10x that here.

[Tesla]

50 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Well you are right about salary, as a profession we've haven't helped ourselves by undercutting each other, Anyway I don't really care what other people get paid as long as they earn it, clearly a truck driver on 120k is stretching things.

At least truck drivers work long shifts through the night and require skills and a licence to drive those trucks.

Meanwhile an entry level labourer working under certain unions apparently makes $140k a year. That little fact alone should be reason enough to crush all these fucking construction industry unions and jail anyone that is a member (including the aforementioned entry level labourers) for life and reinstate the death penalty for the leadership of these unions  

Then I wake up this morning and see the news and teachers are complaining they are udnerpaid cause some roadworkers who jsut hold up a sign make $140k a year, I suppose that's fair enough when you see the retarded pay in the construction industry but I hardly think teachers can complain about being underpaid when it would be close to the highest paid profession for people coming straight out of uni (maybe if you got in a top tier commercial law firm straight out of uni as a law graduate and worked 60 hours a week you'd better teacher's starting pay, but apart from that not too many other fields where you would). Point is, it fucks up the pay expectations throughout the entire economy as well.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Tesla

[thisphantomfortress]

45 minutes ago, Tesla said:

At least truck drivers work long shifts through the night and require skills and a licence to drive those trucks.

Meanwhile an entry level labourer working under certain unions apparently makes $140k a year. That little fact alone should be reason enough to crush all these fucking construction industry unions and jail anyone that is a member (including the aforementioned entry level labourers) for life and reinstate the death penalty for the leadership of these unions  

Then I wake up this morning and see the news and teachers are complaining they are udnerpaid cause some roadworkers who jsut hold up a sign make $140k a year, I suppose that's fair enough when you see the retarded pay in the construction industry but I hardly think teachers can complain about being underpaid when it would be close to the highest paid profession for people coming straight out of uni (maybe if you got in a top tier commercial law firm straight out of uni as a law graduate and worked 60 hours a week you'd better teacher's starting pay, but apart from that not too many other fields where you would). Point is, it fucks up the pay expectations throughout the entire economy as well.

I can tell you now top tier firms arent throwing a huge amount of coin at their grads. With a daily billable target of 6-7 hours 60 hours is a cruisy week. But then as you climb the ladder the ability to earn increases significantly. 

But yea fuck Unions, the CFMEU are a joke they caused 44% of all lost days in Industrial action last year

[NewConvert]

1 hour ago, Shahanga said:

@NewConvert I'm pretty confident that the Gold Coast is part of Queensland!

As to why the story is like Robe River it's because that's how the mining industry used to be and is why so many operations went contractor. 

i thought you were too old to have been at school under Kennett?

Well you are right about salary, as a profession we've haven't helped ourselves by undercutting each other, Anyway I don't really care what other people get paid as long as they earn it, clearly a truck driver on 120k is stretching things.

Certaonly the red and green tape is a big part of the problem, but IR bullshit is even worse. The Swiss have just finished the longest tunnel ever, underneath the alps, for what,17B euros? Be 10x that here.

I was way past school when Kennett became premier. I was just highlighting that unions get blamed for all and sundry, and the promise that a land without unions  will not necessarily be greener.

The problem I have with the story is that it is always hearsay - never confirmed before an industrial tribunal where it could be tested.

The Swiss tunnel was indeed about 17B Euros and took 17 years to build. For me what gets me in the construction  industry is that in Tokyo it took them 3 years to to build a new railway tunnel under Tokyo without causing the disruption that it does here nor the length of time; and that tunnel has to be built to withstand earthquakes. Mind you in Japan they do work around the clock (including the professionals) and the ability to deliver on time is something to behold. Also the pride staff take in their work is also something that I rarely see in Oz. Also houses built to earthquake standards about 3 months - amazing thing when tradies show up on time.

[thisphantomfortress]

Just a fun fact for all of us 83,400 days were lost to industrial action in Australia last year. Just a cool 228 years.

@Shahanga Switzerland has some of the lowest levels of IA in the developed world. Would've taken us centuries to finish a road like that.

[NewConvert]

1 hour ago, Tesla said:

At least truck drivers work long shifts through the night and require skills and a licence to drive those trucks.

Meanwhile an entry level labourer working under certain unions apparently makes $140k a year. That little fact alone should be reason enough to crush all these fucking construction industry unions and jail anyone that is a member (including the aforementioned entry level labourers) for life and reinstate the death penalty for the leadership of these unions  

Then I wake up this morning and see the news and teachers are complaining they are udnerpaid cause some roadworkers who jsut hold up a sign make $140k a year, I suppose that's fair enough when you see the retarded pay in the construction industry but I hardly think teachers can complain about being underpaid when it would be close to the highest paid profession for people coming straight out of uni (maybe if you got in a top tier commercial law firm straight out of uni as a law graduate and worked 60 hours a week you'd better teacher's starting pay, but apart from that not too many other fields where you would). Point is, it fucks up the pay expectations throughout the entire economy as well.

The highlighted words indicate uncertainty.

The question regarding pay across all sectors of the economy is a correlation with the cost of housing. English friends of mine tell me that finding reasonably priced accommodation in London is nigh on impossibble. However in Tokyo, although some areas are expensive there are plenty of areas where it is quite reasonable. And with the PT that they have getting anywhere relatively quickly is not a problem.

[Tesla]

5 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

The highlighted words indicate uncertainty.

The question regarding pay across all sectors of the economy is a correlation with the cost of housing. English friends of mine tell me that finding reasonably priced accommodation in London is nigh on impossibble. However in Tokyo, although some areas are expensive there are plenty of areas where it is quite reasonable. And with the PT that they have getting anywhere relatively quickly is not a problem.

It was in the news recently, I struggle to believe it myself which is why I used the word apparently.

Not really sure about the relevancy but since you mention it, the crazy thing about London is they actually have proper transport pricing (something I think we should have here to stop urban sprawl), and still the city is so large geographically and expensive to live in. Just too much money in that city, it really is amazing.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Tesla

[NewConvert]

33 minutes ago, Tesla said:

It was in the news recently, I struggle to believe it myself which is why I used the word apparently.

Not really sure about the relevancy but since you mention it, the crazy thing about London is they actually have proper transport pricing (something I think we should have here to stop urban sprawl), and still the city is so large geographically and expensive to live in. Just too much money in that city, it really is amazing.

My solution to Melbourne's woe:

1. Return to the old industrial/commercial/residential zones.

2. eliminate all heritage listings bar public buildings of significant merit: eg Parliament Building. If you want to have your house/property heritage listed, go and get a caveat put on the property which should cost about $10K all up. Otherwise it is private property and the owners can build what they like with it as long as it is within the zones (see 1)

3. Around railway stations height limit should be 10 floors. All buildings should have mixed sized dwellings - from 1BR through to 5BR.

4. All PT should be co-ordinated with trains and all stops should be at the railway station. Old stations should be rebuilt to accommodate on site buses/taxis. Also allow commercial premises to be incorporated into the railway stations.

5. Only Australian residents can own property in Oz. Yep - roll back this bit of globalisation.

[Deeming]

6 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

My solution to Melbourne's woe:

1. Return to the old industrial/commercial/residential zones.

2. eliminate all heritage listings bar public buildings of significant merit: eg Parliament Building. If you want to have your house/property heritage listed, go and get a caveat put on the property which should cost about $10K all up. Otherwise it is private property and the owners can build what they like with it as long as it is within the zones (see 1)

3. Around railway stations height limit should be 10 floors. All buildings should have mixed sized dwellings - from 1BR through to 5BR.

4. All PT should be co-ordinated with trains and all stops should be at the railway station. Old stations should be rebuilt to accommodate on site buses/taxis. Also allow commercial premises to be incorporated into the railway stations.

5. Only Australian residents can own property in Oz. Yep - roll back this bit of globalisation.

Are you going to tell CFG to hand back the keys?

[Tesla]

20 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

My solution to Melbourne's woe:

1. Return to the old industrial/commercial/residential zones.

2. eliminate all heritage listings bar public buildings of significant merit: eg Parliament Building. If you want to have your house/property heritage listed, go and get a caveat put on the property which should cost about $10K all up. Otherwise it is private property and the owners can build what they like with it as long as it is within the zones (see 1)

3. Around railway stations height limit should be 10 floors. All buildings should have mixed sized dwellings - from 1BR through to 5BR.

4. All PT should be co-ordinated with trains and all stops should be at the railway station. Old stations should be rebuilt to accommodate on site buses/taxis. Also allow commercial premises to be incorporated into the railway stations.

5. Only Australian residents can own property in Oz. Yep - roll back this bit of globalisation.

Charging a more realistic amount for transport (both PT and roads, but especially PT since it's so heavily subsidised) does a lot more than all of that. And yes I know Cad is going to come in and mention, as per his above post, that PT can't be made profitable and it's political suicide etc, which is probably true but its not about making it profitable but rather to better reflect the costs so that better decisions are made about where people live/work/etc., and it is definitely political suicide but I suppose you could just start building a fuckload of different infrastructure projects that cost $2352395623945234 and even though you'd get booted out at the next election the new government can't reverse it since they are either left with a huge budget blackhole by reverting to current transport pricing or they have to cancel a whole lot of projects which are already underway.

Perhaps an unrealistic idea, but the urban sprawl in Melbourne is retarded and one day something like that is going to have to happen anyway when the government can't afford to have people riding the train from Pakenham to the city for $6 and $3 or w/e the zone 1 & 2 fares are these days for adult & concession. And then people living in these new estates 100km from the city centre are really going to get shafted when their property values collapse, better to do it sooner and discourage further urban sprawl before it happens rather than fuck people over after the sprawl has happened.