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National Second Div Chat


Dylan
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1 hour ago, Dylan said:

Couldnt find a second div thread, so if there is and this is a duplicate, remove please.

If it gets off the ground, even if its only semi pro initially, its going to be transformative. 

I'll be the first to play Jonah on this one. If you can't run your flagship store in the High Street, what makes you think you can run a branch store in the boondocks?

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On 04/06/2019 at 7:35 AM, jw1739 said:

I'll be the first to play Jonah on this one. If you can't run your flagship store in the High Street, what makes you think you can run a branch store in the boondocks?

I’m all for a 2nd division, but right now keeping the first division alive needs to be the priority. 

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I love heading to FFA Cup games and NPL games, expect it to be the same type of vibe.
For Melbourne I would assume, South, Bergers and Knights would all be a given to be in a second division.

It should also allow us to expand the FFA cup as well. Bring in both Div 1 and 2 at a national RO 64 stage.

I also like the idea floated by the North Queensland Fury owner a few years back.
Create a second division with only promotion. Run until we have 16 teams in the aleague then have promotion relegation. 

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11 hours ago, steven_92 said:

I also like the idea floated by the North Queensland Fury owner a few years back.
Create a second division with only promotion. Run until we have 16 teams in the aleague then have promotion relegation. 

Only with promotion has set criteria for teams, like the Japanese leagues.

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6 hours ago, haz said:

Only with promotion has set criteria for teams, like the Japanese leagues.

Also applies in England in leagues such as the National Leagues - it was applied in the season just finished in the National League South where one club was prevented from participating in the play-offs for promotion to the National League on the basis of inadequate seating at its ground.

I don't know about elsewhere.

As I understand it, FFA sets quite strict guidelines on grounds for the A-League, not just in terms of facilities for players and spectators, but also media, security etc.  

But my main point remains. If you can't fucking well get your overall management of the game on a decent footing and manage your Premier League satisfactorily, what on earth makes you think you can manage a Second Division and promotion/relegation? IMO the downside risk far outweighs the upside benefits - whatever the latter might be (which I have yet to understand).

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  • 2 months later...

So far this pre-season I've re-acquainted myself with the facilities - or lack of them - at both Oakleigh and Bentleigh Greens.  If these grounds and their facilities are typical of the grounds of NPL clubs that aspire to a Second Division and ultimate promotion to the A-League, then all I can say is that they have very little chance of attracting broad community support. They'll keep their "ethnic" support, yes, but they won't attract anyone else. The facilities are primitive to say the least. 

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  • 1 year later...

I think that when people look at promotion and relegation they see just the opportunities, the positives. They don't see the negatives. I just looked at the fortunes of Yeovil Town - in 2013-14 in the dizzying heights of the Championship, in 2020-21 wallowing in the National League in second-last place.

Be careful what you wish for.

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3 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I think that when people look at promotion and relegation they see just the opportunities, the positives. They don't see the negatives. I just looked at the fortunes of Yeovil Town - in 2013-14 in the dizzying heights of the Championship, in 2020-21 wallowing in the National League in second-last place.

Be careful what you wish for.

I've been wondering the negative affects for A-League Licenced clubs and how are they supposed to survive if one gets relegated like central coast hypothetically? Surely it would be the death sentence for an a-league club if they don't really have an established home venue and suffer the expenses of the venue hire and other costs of operations. Whilst many clubs vying for a second division have their own permanent residency and do ok for themselves in the NPL.

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11 minutes ago, Young Polak said:

I've been wondering the negative affects for A-League Licenced clubs and how are they supposed to survive if one gets relegated like central coast hypothetically? Surely it would be the death sentence for an a-league club if they don't really have an established home venue and suffer the expenses of the venue hire and other costs of operations. Whilst many clubs vying for a second division have their own permanent residency and do ok for themselves in the NPL.

Even from a viability pov with venues it could have issues. Any of the current A-League clubs (except Western Utd) getting relegated would mean that the crowds they would attract would only necessitate a suburban venue you'd imagine. Does that hurt the viability of the rectangular venues long term if places like Aami Park have an entire off season with only City bringing fans through the gates? Does that mean South Australia is reluctant to put any money into Coopers Stadium knowing that it takes just one  bad season from Adelaide to be a complete white elephant? 

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Another issue I see is, whatever method is used to determine promotion (presumably a play-off between the various NPL premiers, and then either automatic replacement of the bottom club in the A-League or a play-off between the two) what happens if the club gaining promotion is in a different state from that of the relegated club?

I also think that turnover of coaches would increase as clubs face relegation, and that there's a risk that clubs will start to throw money at players to help stave off relegation and also to achieve promotion, and then find themselves in financial difficulties.

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11 hours ago, Shahanga said:

I agree @jw1739, that’s why personally I’d like to see a National NPL comp (A1 league) but no promotion/relegation to the A League.

Maybe one day, maybe never.

@Shahanga I don't understand what you are proposing. "A National NPL competition (A1 League)" you say but no link to the A-League. So you will have two national leagues? Goodness, the A-League is not sustainable, so how is another national league going to be sustainable? Surely if the (say 12) A1-League clubs are sustainable why not amalgamate them with the 12 A-League clubs and create a bigger national competition?

And if you don't want that, how is the A1-League going to link to the other lesser NPL leagues? There is a same problem with that link - if there is one - as the A-League. If (say) Edgeworth FC get promoted and Bentleigh get relegated then how is that going to work?

I must be missing something but I don't get it.

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Well I was thinking a lower cost semi-pro league. In essence the pinnacle of the NPL, or if you like, NPL on steroids. Lower cost because you aren’t playing at the AAMi parks, you are at suburban grounds and in general everything around the game is cheaper, including player and club official wages bills.

The problem football in Australia has right now is the gulf between the A League and the state NPL. You go from 11 (next season) Australian A League sides to what   70 plus NPL sides and the FFA cup has shown that for the talk of Vic and NSW they aren’t a whole lot better then places like NNSW or QLD. Now that means there is a massive dilution of talent at that next level down and the lack of quality opposition means it’s mostly a dead end for players who end up there.

The league would not be set up to compete with the A League, promotion would be the carrot, but only if they could demonstrate long term viability etc. I’m thinking at least 5 years would be required for that. Does it have its own P/R? well possibly but the state issues might make this challenging. Haven’t thought through that.
Right now though relegation from the A League would mean the death of the clubs on the receiving end. Apart from everything else, this would place the FFA in an interesting commercial position having sold A League licences.

I don’t want to double the size of the A League as this will significantly reduce the football quality. Not every new player will be a foreign recruit or a victim of selection fashion/politics etc.

Do you remember years ago some bloke published a link to his model for (I think) 3 tiers of national football in Australia? I didn’t agree with everything but it made interesting reading.

(sorry I jumped around a bit, bit of a thought dump in a work break.)

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On 11/11/2020 at 5:23 PM, jw1739 said:

@Shahanga I don't understand what you are proposing. "A National NPL competition (A1 League)" you say but no link to the A-League. So you will have two national leagues? Goodness, the A-League is not sustainable, so how is another national league going to be sustainable? Surely if the (say 12) A1-League clubs are sustainable why not amalgamate them with the 12 A-League clubs and create a bigger national competition?

And if you don't want that, how is the A1-League going to link to the other lesser NPL leagues? There is a same problem with that link - if there is one - as the A-League. If (say) Edgeworth FC get promoted and Bentleigh get relegated then how is that going to work?

I must be missing something but I don't get it.

It's essentially on the lines of MLS and their 2nd tier NASL where there is no promotion and relegation between the two, NASL on just a lower budget/salary cap?

The NPL do have their post season tournament where the league champions of each state congregate to one venue and play a round robin tournament to crown the overall NPL champion (I think?)

I would have thought it would sorta make sense to keep the 'NATIONAL premier league' name consistent and have an actual NPL 1st tier league that have clubs compete across inter state to fulfil the 2nd division fantasy in some compacity and more investment into the NPL media services to promote this national competition concept. 

I'm quickly brainstorming from the top of my head

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6 hours ago, Young Polak said:

It's essentially on the lines of MLS and their 2nd tier NASL where there is no promotion and relegation between the two, NASL on just a lower budget/salary cap?

The NPL do have their post season tournament where the league champions of each state congregate to one venue and play a round robin tournament to crown the overall NPL champion (I think?)

I would have thought it would sorta make sense to keep the 'NATIONAL premier league' name consistent and have an actual NPL 1st tier league that have clubs compete across inter state to fulfil the 2nd division fantasy in some compacity and more investment into the NPL media services to promote this national competition concept. 

I'm quickly brainstorming from the top of my head

The NASL is defunct. Effectively replaced by the USL, which I think is divided into the Eastern and Western Conferences as is the MLS.

IMO the problem in Australia is the concept of a national second-tier competition. I can't see this as being sustainable. IMO the best we can do is maintain the present state-based leagues and have an inter-state "finals" system to determine the national premier league champions.

@Shahanga has IMO spelled out the overwhelming reasons why promotion to and relegation from the A-League is a pipe-dream. Relegation would indeed be the death knell for any of the current A-League clubs, and in reverse I just don't believe any of the present second-tier clubs could sustain more than one season in the A-League.

Even a country such as Germany, where football is a major sport (the major sport?) there are only three divisions of the national league before the organisation goes regional. And remember that the 3rd Liga has only been going for 12 years. Prior to that the regional leagues sat under the 2 Bundesliga. In Australia we are a minor sport, the distances are large, and the money is just not there to support two national leagues. Truly I just do not know why people waste their time thinking about it.

 

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Pretty much my thoughts, BUT for both levels you need a pathway. 

I think a national second tier or even a conferenced type should be created. Then some sort of performance based licensing process installed into the A League, that is something like if a team loses a certain amount of games over a 3 or 4 season period their license goes out to tender and the eligible applicant's are chosen primarily but not exclusively  from the second tier. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jovan said:

Pretty much my thoughts, BUT for both levels you need a pathway. 

I think a national second tier or even a conferenced type should be created. Then some sort of performance based licensing process installed into the A League, that is something like if a team loses a certain amount of games over a 3 or 4 season period their license goes out to tender and the eligible applicant's are chosen primarily but not exclusively  from the second tier. 

The A-League licence could be for a shorter fixed term - say 5 seasons - and then the worst performing club over those five seasons (simply measured on total points over those seasons) would have to re-apply, and second tier clubs could also apply at that time?

This would still have a dramatic impact on any club actually voted out, and might well threaten confidence in the League itself.

In the old four-division English Football League the bottom four clubs in the 4th Division each season had to apply for re-election, and non-league clubs could apply for election at the same time. Peterborough United (of the Midland League and known as "The Posh") were always the front runners and were finally elected ready for the 1960-61 season. As I recall it clubs such as Gateshead and Hartlepool were perennial cellar-dwellers in the 4th Division and I think it was Gateshead that was tipped out to let Peterborough in.

 

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  • 2 months later...
 
Progress Report highlights the feasibility of a national second division, with clubs as the foundation for success

Establishment of a national second division (NSD) competition is affordable and feasible according to a progress report released today by the Association of Australian Football Clubs (AAFC). 
 
The progress report, entitled Reshaping Australian Football’s National Second Tier, states that the annual cost of running a NSD is estimated at up to $3.3 million. This includes centralised travel costs, but excludes any potential revenue from an anticipated OTT streaming solution, broadcasting and gaming data, and player transfers. 
 
In addition to the club participation fee of $200,000 per season, it is estimated that each club would require an annual budget of between $850,000 and $1.6 million – something that the 32 Partner Clubs involved in the interim report view as eminently achievable. 
 
Under current arrangements, the clubs taking part in the state or regional-based National Premier Leagues require up to $900,000 per season to take part in their competition, depending on their location and the size of the competition. 
 
Significantly, most clubs already operate numerous teams and have activities and facilities in place and do not require significant, additional infrastructure expenditure.
 
The single biggest cost to run the competition is travel, and the interim report sets out detailed analysis of the costs involved and how these can be met. 
 
The report notes that “… Clubs have expressed confidence they can generate additional revenue, especially for the commencement and establishment phases. Principally, this is from being able to offer to sponsors, supporters, and members a new, more exciting product…”.
 
AAFC believes that a NSD is critical to a re-set of football in Australia because it would provide motivation and inspiration to genuine community clubs to aspire to the highest level of competition possible.
 
The progress report refers to sentiments expressed by former English Premier League supremo and Advisor to the A-League clubs, Richard Scudamore, that there is nothing as strong in building football culture as home grown loyalty.
 
“Football clubs have been in Australia since the 1880s and have been built by people from all parts of the world who have all culturally enriched our country,” the progress report states. 
 
“It is the continuation of these clubs - as strong, vital and ambitious football clubs - which is critical to the development and organic growth of our game.”
 
The progress report makes it clear that many of the clubs which form the state-based competition structure have had “burdens and restrictions” imposed on them which limit their potential, to the detriment of the whole game.
 
AAFC believes it is time for a merit-based competition structure to be introduced as meritocracy is both the “Australian way” and occurs in most football competitions around the world.
 
The interim report, which has been funded by 32 Partner Clubs from around the country with financial analysis undertaken by MI Associates, sets out a timeframe and key performance measures for operation of a NSD that would see the competition commence in 2022, and a women’s NSD introduced by 2025.
 
Key features of a proposed NSD are:
 
  • A single national competition comprising 12 teams from the outset but expanding to 16 teams as soon as possible, and preferably within the first four years;
  • All participating clubs must have grounds that can accommodate a minimum of 3,000 fans;
  • Teams to be included based on meeting stringent criteria as the basis for entry, followed by promotion and relegation from lower tiers. There are ten criteria to be met including in the areas of youth development, coaching standards, finance and facilities;
  • A $200,000 participation fee from each club; 
  • A requirement for participating clubs to have a comprehensive women’s programme in place as a pre-requisite for participation in the NSD;
  • No preference for a winter or summer season, but alignment with the ‘Whole of Football’ calendar; and 
  • Establishment of a Women’s Football, Marketing, and Youth and Coach Development Steering Committees.
 
It is proposed that the NSD would be overseen by an Advisory Board comprising members of Football Australia and AAFC, supported by the steering committees. 
 
The next steps involve consultation with key stakeholders in football, principally Football Australia, the state and regional-based member federations, the A-League clubs and other football stakeholders before finalising the report by Easter for presentation to the Football Australia Board.
 
A copy of the full report can be found here
Edited by Jovan
Check out the report if you have time, very detailed
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Given that we've only just seen the birth of Australian Professional Leagues I'm astonished that we now have another organisation appearing.

Also I would have thought that the obvious way to start would be to have a play-off series between the top two clubs from each of the NPL Leagues, each season, and just see how that pans out for 3-4 years before launching into another league altogether.

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6 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Given that we've only just seen the birth of Australian Professional Leagues I'm astonished that we now have another organisation appearing.

Also I would have thought that the obvious way to start would be to have a play-off series between the top two clubs from each of the NPL Leagues, each season, and just see how that pans out for 3-4 years before launching into another league altogether.

1. This organisation formed several years ago.

2. the finals (well a variation there of) you describe have been played  for a number of years.

Edited by Shahanga
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As the report notes there are currently 222 clubs in the various NPL.

That’s 2400 starting players, versus 121 (Australian clubs) in the A League.  Explains the gulf in football standard.

Why not have the best in the NPL play each other. Surely it makes sense? The NSD clubs are happy to take the financial risk, so what’s the downside?

As to promotion/relegation, the NSD is a viable concept without it. The NPL already exists without promotion/relegation to/from the A League. (I know they want it, but it’s a big hurdle, for many reasons- a separate post).

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IF the clubs can sustain it, even at a semi-pro level it's great for the game. With the amount some clubs spend in the NPL on wages, this can't be completely unfeasible as you'd expect an increase in crowds and sponsorship. Start at 10 or so clubs, and increase to 16 and any club that shows they have all their shit together can get the opportunity for a license in the A-League until the A-League reaches 16 clubs and a 30 game season. I don't think you could introduce A-League relegation until you reach 16 teams and the 2nd Division is strong enough that an A-League team can be relegated and won't die immediately. Theres a lot of work that needs to be done to make sure it's not like the last days of the NSL where clubs folded on an annual basis, but it needs to happen to help us develop players and bridge the gap between A-League and NPL.

I'd love to see some of our young guys like Idrus and Raphael being able to play out on loan in a 2nd Division to help their development, rather than in the waste of time that is the Y-League. In a perfect world a 2nd Division would have rules like 2/3 U21 players in the first XI and 4/5 in the matchday squad, rather than having 11 journeymen running around.

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The Preston Lions are a proud club with one of the country’s most passionate and dedicated fan bases.
Since 1947, “Makedonia” as they are affectionately known by their most ardent supporters, have epitomised the best of Australian football culture. A club formed by a migrant community that has embraced football people from all backgrounds. 

A nursery for some of Australia’s most talented footballers - producing 19 Socceroos - the Lions are making a comeback and are planning to get back to the top via the National Second Division. 
 
“We are excited with the progress that has been made on the N2D and the recent update,” said the club in a statement to fans and members. “We are an advocate for the Second Division and are fully supporting and contributing to the work being done by the AAFC.
 
“We will continue to position PLFC as a destination club of choice as one of Australia’s leading football clubs. We will continue to keep our loyal supporters informed.”
 
The club’s ambitions have been welcomed by their fans, with many believing a strong Preston competing in the higher levels of a properly tiered national football pyramid will help rejuvenate the interest in Australian domestic football.
 
During the club’s hey days from 1981-94, when the Lions competed in the old NSL, they would often have crowds in excess of 10,000 despite indifferent results on the field. 
 
Even after they left the NSL, the club continued to attract plenty of support in the Victorian domestic competition. 
 
The Lions won the Victorian Premier League in seasons 1994, 2002 and 2007, to add to their 1980 crown that originally got them into the NSL. 
 
The club has had its challenging times over the past decade and a bit, but after resolving their financial issues and re-building the fabric of their club, the Lions genuinely believe they can compete in the National Second Division. 
 
The club’s facilities at B.T Connor Reserve will undergo a $3 million re-development which will tie in nicely with the start of the National Second Division. 
 
The new look ground will include upgraded change rooms, medical facilities, a purpose built social area with a new bar and kitchen, undercover seating for fans, media facilities, disability friendly access to the pavilion and top notch lighting.
 
On the field, the club has established the Preston Pathways program for junior boys and girls. The program is designed to develop kids from as young as seven or eight and prepare them for the club’s youth system, which will eventually feed into the senior men’s and women’s teams. 
 
The senior men currently compete in the National Premier League Three competition, after winning promotion in 2019. 
 
The Preston women’s team were promoted to the newly established Victorian Premier League Women’s competition, the second tier of Victorian football. 
 
“We are a club with strong ambitions and a clear strategy to be the the destination club of choice for players and families,” said Lions technical director Nick Radecki. “Over the last few years we have implemented the Preston Pathways program.
 
“It has a clear and distinct structure for our coaches and players to follow that progresses them from the under 7s through to the under 9s and discovery phase, leading into the skill acquisition phase between the ages of 10-12. 
 
“From there they go to our junior program using the national curriculum, and hopefully from our development they can progress to our NPL 18s, 20s and then ideally into our senior structure.”
 
The club this week launched its 2021 membership campaign, making an impassioned plea for fans to join the Lions family as they embark on the most exciting era of the club’s rich 74 year history.

In a club statement, the Lions committee urged fans to sign up and help the club reach their lofty goals.
 
“We need every supporter on board in 2021 like never before as we get into the season and deliver on a wide range of projects. 
 
“2021 is the year we will be asking every loyal Preston supporter to contribute in whatever way possible to support our 2021 Fundraising Project, with funds being allocated to the various infrustructure upgrades and projects.
 
“We ask all supporters to get your Membership Now. Our strength is in the hands of our supporters. Memberships play a key role in the success of our club.”

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/lions-from-preston-set-to-roar-once-more-560099

Pretty wishful thinking that they'd even be in the top 50 potential clubs for a future 2nd Division given their history of the past 10 years. I'd imagine South Melbourne, Heidelberg and Melbourne Knights are best prepared with facilities and supporter base in Victoria. The likes of Bentleigh and Green Gully need some improvements in facilities, but could possibly work.

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  • 10 months later...

Here we go again. https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/football-australia-targets-national-second-division-for-2023-20211214-p59hdi.html 

A $6m cash windfall and FA possibly proposes to set up two more national competitions? That'll be swallowed by administration costs in no time at all. How they think that clubs are suddenly going to find somewhere between $2.5m and $5.4m is beyond me - IIRC 10-11 years ago Peter Sidwell said it cost around $3m to run Heart each year.

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Can someone tell me why it's so important in football ;compared to other sports; that theirs a second/ multiple division's?

No other (or most other sports rather) only have on division and they run fine. Just seems like a heavier financial burden on football Australia when they already can't afford it.

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On 15/12/2021 at 6:13 PM, kingofhearts said:

Can someone tell me why it's so important in football ;compared to other sports; that theirs a second/ multiple division's?

No other (or most other sports rather) only have on division and they run fine. Just seems like a heavier financial burden on football Australia when they already can't afford it.

Actually that's not entirely accurate. 

All sports have lower levels, AFL, Basketball, League etc, but they don't have promotion relegation. 

What soccer is talking about is a national second division. 

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1 hour ago, Jovan said:

Actually that's not entirely accurate. 

All sports have lower levels, AFL, Basketball, League etc, but they don't have promotion relegation. 

What soccer is talking about is a national second division. 

Well, yes, what you say is true. However, IMO it's fairly clear that the ultimate objective in football seems to be to create an Australian football pyramid, of sorts, and that is not quite the same as having lower levels. At the moment we can support only 11 Australian clubs at the highest level, and I don't think any of those make an operating profit, and the administrative bodies are always looking for cash, so it doesn't seem to be the sensible to consider a national second division. Especially when we are in the middle, or perhaps only at the start, of a pandemic.

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On 18/12/2021 at 1:40 PM, Jovan said:

Actually that's not entirely accurate. 

All sports have lower levels, AFL, Basketball, League etc, but they don't have promotion relegation. 

What soccer is talking about is a national second division. 

Most of those sports have second divisions of competition in their particular state or territory though. But I understand what you're saying, I just don't know where the money would.come from to make it work.

To try and make a whole national second division, when they're are clubs currently in the top level who aren't even stable at the moment, just makes no sense to me.

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