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LR9
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I am Sydney FC fan living in Melbourne. I attend Heart games to get my football fix and must admit I am developing a soft spot for your boys (save me, I even leapt out of my chair when you scored against CCM the other week, although that could just be because I hate CCM).

I have previously been a lurker on your forum but had to weigh in here as the FFA push for a Western Sydney team is a personal bugbear of mine. As a long time Sydney FC member I think a rush to institute a Western Sydney side will be a terrible move. Sydney FC crowds are not great. No one will argue against that point. Having grown up in Western Sydney and having lived there on and off for 30 years I am very confident in stating that a significant proportion of Sydney FC fans reside in Western Sydney. Will these people stick with Sydney FC or will they relocate their loyalties to a team playing just "up the road"? As a lot of them are families I am pretty confident that the convenience factor is likely to win...

If the FFA wanted a Western Sydney team so badly they should have based Sydney FC out of Parramatta Stadium or the Olympic Stadium (it is far too big), but we know the focus on moving away from the NSL would have made this impossible. I don't have an issue with where Sydney FC are currently based - it makes it a team for the whole city and the wide spread of active fans (ie game attendees) attests to this. To try and put a second team into the city anytime soon would just be a disaster for Sydney FC and anyone who argues that a struggling Sydney FC is good for the league is just deluding themselves really.

I would have like to seen the A-League start out with Wollongong, Sydney and Newcastle instead of Sydney, CCM and Newcastle. With the current spread of NSW teams you have 3 teams within 2.5 hours of each other. As a Sydney FC fan it's been fantastic because the train/bus trips to CCM and Newcastle are great but the Central Coast is far too close to both Sydney and Newcastle and a high proportion of football people living in the Northern Suburbs of Sydney are actually CCM fans instead of Sydney. When I hear talk of a Wollongong franchise now I have to laugh as it is quite likely that they would draw people from the Southern Suburbs of Sydney as well for reasons of proximity and convenience.

For mine, the only option within the boundaries of the NSW border is not even in NSW - Canberra!

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League from inception should have been:

Wellington Phoenix

Tasmania United

Melbourne Heart

Melbourne Victory

Canberra Cosmos

Sydney City

Western Sydney

Newcastle Jets

Central Coast Mariners

North Queensland

Brisbane Roar

Adelaide United

Perth Glory

Sunshine Coast

Each of these clubs would have had teething problems in their first few years, and would have faced numerous problems but a 14 league (which will never happen now) would have been ideal.

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Tesla, the Central Coast have never averaged 15k.

The 70% of half decent fans they have now are ex-NU supporters ffs.

Agreed on population however, Canberra would be just as legitimate now, as the WS bid.

07/08 season when a-league attendances peaked they were averaging 15k, source: http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=att&season=2007-08

That does include finals though, without that they are at like 12.5k, still good enough.

Edited by Tesla
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I am Sydney FC fan living in Melbourne. I attend Heart games to get my football fix and must admit I am developing a soft spot for your boys (save me, I even leapt out of my chair when you scored against CCM the other week, although that could just be because I hate CCM).

I have previously been a lurker on your forum but had to weigh in here as the FFA push for a Western Sydney team is a personal bugbear of mine. As a long time Sydney FC member I think a rush to institute a Western Sydney side will be a terrible move. Sydney FC crowds are not great. No one will argue against that point. Having grown up in Western Sydney and having lived there on and off for 30 years I am very confident in stating that a significant proportion of Sydney FC fans reside in Western Sydney. Will these people stick with Sydney FC or will they relocate their loyalties to a team playing just "up the road"? As a lot of them are families I am pretty confident that the convenience factor is likely to win...

If the FFA wanted a Western Sydney team so badly they should have based Sydney FC out of Parramatta Stadium or the Olympic Stadium (it is far too big), but we know the focus on moving away from the NSL would have made this impossible. I don't have an issue with where Sydney FC are currently based - it makes it a team for the whole city and the wide spread of active fans (ie game attendees) attests to this. To try and put a second team into the city anytime soon would just be a disaster for Sydney FC and anyone who argues that a struggling Sydney FC is good for the league is just deluding themselves really.

I would have like to seen the A-League start out with Wollongong, Sydney and Newcastle instead of Sydney, CCM and Newcastle. With the current spread of NSW teams you have 3 teams within 2.5 hours of each other. As a Sydney FC fan it's been fantastic because the train/bus trips to CCM and Newcastle are great but the Central Coast is far too close to both Sydney and Newcastle and a high proportion of football people living in the Northern Suburbs of Sydney are actually CCM fans instead of Sydney. When I hear talk of a Wollongong franchise now I have to laugh as it is quite likely that they would draw people from the Southern Suburbs of Sydney as well for reasons of proximity and convenience.

For mine, the only option within the boundaries of the NSW border is not even in NSW - Canberra!

You honestly think a team had to be placed in the East rather than the West to stop the League having ties to the NSL???

Dont you remember back then that Melbourne started Season One with MV based at Olympic Park where NSL games were played for years and years, including many famous Grand Finals.

Yet the team grew a pretty non fractured fan base – Albeit of a Mong kind.

The fact is that all the supporters of the major NSL teams (Who were prepared to accept things had moved on at the highest level of club football) could of been united in a very similar way in the West of Sydney.

Instead of having a half full stadium in the East – Sydney could had stadium’s near full in the West.

You have also conveniently skipped over another major fact, which is there was a NSL team once that was based in the Inner East of Sydney. They were called Sydney City and they still play in Light Blue Shirts in some forgotten division in NSW (They do however have strong juniors).

As I sure you know this club was far too successful for its tiny supporter base as it was bankrolled by its very successful Chairman. The same man who also happens to be the guy who owns a share of Sydney FC and also setup up the A League and decided where they initial teams would be.

Thank god now Frank Lowy is hopefully going to make amends for his personal feeling erring his judgement back when the A League started.

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You honestly think a team had to be placed in the East rather than the West to stop the League having ties to the NSL???

Dont you remember back then that Melbourne started Season One with MV based at Olympic Park where NSL games were played for years and years, including many famous Grand Finals.

Yet the team grew a pretty non fractured fan base – Albeit of a Mong kind.

The fact is that all the supporters of the major NSL teams (Who were prepared to accept things had moved on at the highest level of club football) could of been united in a very similar way in the West of Sydney.

Instead of having a half full stadium in the East – Sydney could had stadium’s near full in the West.

You have also conveniently skipped over another major fact, which is there was a NSL team once that was based in the Inner East of Sydney. They were called Sydney City and they still play in Light Blue Shirts in some forgotten division in NSW (They do however have strong juniors).

As I sure you know this club was far too successful for its tiny supporter base as it was bankrolled by its very successful Chairman. The same man who also happens to be the guy who owns a share of Sydney FC and also setup up the A League and decided where they initial teams would be.

Thank god now Frank Lowy is hopefully going to make amends for his personal feeling erring his judgement back when the A League started.

Apologies for the essay length response (slow day at work!)

Unfortunately (as a result of personal experience) I have to disagree that all of the supporters of the major NSL teams were willing to move on and be united under the Western Sydney banner, there was (and probably still is) a lot of bitterness towards the A-League from significant portions of the fan base of such clubs. This might have been the case in Melbourne (I honestly couldn't offer an opinion on the Melbourne market either way) but it certainly wasn't the case in Sydney.

Whether a stated aim or not, it was clear to most in NSW that the FFA considered it important in Sydney to ensure that the Sydney franchise steered clear of being associated with the better known Sydney clubs of the NSL - the likes of Olympic, United, APIA etc. I am not willing to get into too thorough analysis on the reasons why all this happened because it really does, in my opinion, border on racial stereotyping. All I am willing to say is that in the Sydney football landscape as the A-League there was a strong perception from a lot of the "football community" that Club A was for people from certain backgrounds, Club B for those of another and so on. In fact, in my local association (Granville and Districts Soccer Football Association) there was a push from a couple of clubs located in the far reaches of the association (the very conservative bible belt suburbs) to be released from Granville and placed into the Gladesville Association with some "interesting" justifications provided. Not a pleasant concept to think about in what is supposed to be a multicultural city I know, but unfortunately Football in NSW struggled (possibly still does) to escape this sticky issue and make attending the football appeal to a wider audience in the city.

Without overlooking Lowy’s previous involvement with Sydney City, I also don’t believe this is the reason Sydney is located where it is. Whilst the Moore Park sporting precinct is on the border of the Eastern Suburbs it is considered by the citizens of Sydney to be a city location. In locating Sydney FC in the city of Sydney it helped people to feel like this was a club for the whole city.

I don’t disagree with the notion that a full stadium in the west would be better than the current half empty stadium that Sydney FC plays in front of now, I am just outlining what I believe to be the reasons why this happened the way it did. I also still believe that the introduction of a Western Sydney franchise in the near future would not be a good thing for Sydney FC. That’s just my opinion though, and it seems likely I will get to see it tested in the near future. If so, as a Sydney FC member, I hope I am wrong!

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07/08 season when a-league attendances peaked they were averaging 15k, source: http://www.ultimatea...&season=2007-08

That does include finals though, without that they are at like 12.5k, still good enough.

rofl, the grand final is considered their home game? It was in Sydney ffs, fucking gypo's, that day at the sfs, 26k were Novocastrians.

FTM.

Fold the cunts.

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It's 2,000 more and 4 million more than west sydney, i can't see how West Sydney are any more sustainable.

They aren't jumping quickly either, the Canberra idea has been knocked back several times already, 2008 being one of them. It's not the case of the ffa saying west sydney is a goal, its a case of Canberrans wanting a team, which is in my opinion why Canberra is a much better option.

http://www.foxsports...l-1226287305800 - shows how bullshit the ffa are being about this new team, people in Canberra have worked there asses off for basically nothing.

Alright, I've never said West Sydney would be sustainable. In fact, I think it is a terrible idea to push them into the next season. However, this is just bad luck, and to be honest, we need another intra-city derby to boost our tv deal. In terms of figures, West Sydney also had some signed members for their original bid, I can't remember any numbers though. However when it comes to cash, I can guarantee that they will have much more than Canberra, the FFA will bank roll the absolute shit out of them.

However, this isn't my point. Canberra has a much better set-up, and this shows that they really are serious about getting a team, and the FFA realise this. But because of this, the FFA won't rush them into the league, instead waiting until they have legitimately met all the requirements to enter the league. Let West Sydney be the guinea pig, and save Canberra for further down the track as a completely functional expansion team.

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Apologies for the essay length response (slow day at work!)

Unfortunately (as a result of personal experience) I have to disagree that all of the supporters of the major NSL teams were willing to move on and be united under the Western Sydney banner, there was (and probably still is) a lot of bitterness towards the A-League from significant portions of the fan base of such clubs. This might have been the case in Melbourne (I honestly couldn't offer an opinion on the Melbourne market either way) but it certainly wasn't the case in Sydney.

Whether a stated aim or not, it was clear to most in NSW that the FFA considered it important in Sydney to ensure that the Sydney franchise steered clear of being associated with the better known Sydney clubs of the NSL - the likes of Olympic, United, APIA etc. I am not willing to get into too thorough analysis on the reasons why all this happened because it really does, in my opinion, border on racial stereotyping. All I am willing to say is that in the Sydney football landscape as the A-League there was a strong perception from a lot of the "football community" that Club A was for people from certain backgrounds, Club B for those of another and so on. In fact, in my local association (Granville and Districts Soccer Football Association) there was a push from a couple of clubs located in the far reaches of the association (the very conservative bible belt suburbs) to be released from Granville and placed into the Gladesville Association with some "interesting" justifications provided. Not a pleasant concept to think about in what is supposed to be a multicultural city I know, but unfortunately Football in NSW struggled (possibly still does) to escape this sticky issue and make attending the football appeal to a wider audience in the city.

Without overlooking Lowy’s previous involvement with Sydney City, I also don’t believe this is the reason Sydney is located where it is. Whilst the Moore Park sporting precinct is on the border of the Eastern Suburbs it is considered by the citizens of Sydney to be a city location. In locating Sydney FC in the city of Sydney it helped people to feel like this was a club for the whole city.

I don’t disagree with the notion that a full stadium in the west would be better than the current half empty stadium that Sydney FC plays in front of now, I am just outlining what I believe to be the reasons why this happened the way it did. I also still believe that the introduction of a Western Sydney franchise in the near future would not be a good thing for Sydney FC. That’s just my opinion though, and it seems likely I will get to see it tested in the near future. If so, as a Sydney FC member, I hope I am wrong!

You do realise that the same problems you are alluding to that were not isolated to purely West Sydney they also occurred in Melbourne in equal if not greater measure?

Of course I know many NSL supporters never will come aboard the A League (I alluded to that in post) but by and large a lot actually have come on board, in fact I think you would find numbers wise probably as many jumped on MV as those that did not.

It’s just that they tend to be the older and less vocal supporters, the ones that take their family’s to games and don’t have time to discuss Australian Football Politics on Forums.

I know for a fact you see a lot of Older guys in MV caps and stuff at most VPL games (Heaps at South games in fact) and nobody screams and hurls abuse at them.

What happened generally was those supporters who supported their NSL side for strong ethnic reasons stayed as strictly supporters of those sides in the VPL.

Whilst those prepared to follow the new league put any Ethnic Differences between them, I really fail to see why this would not of worked in West Sydney either.

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Whether a stated aim or not, it was clear to most in NSW that the FFA considered it important in Sydney to ensure that the Sydney franchise steered clear of being associated with the better known Sydney clubs of the NSL - the likes of Olympic, United, APIA etc. I am not willing to get into too thorough analysis on the reasons why all this happened because it really does, in my opinion, border on racial stereotyping. All I am willing to say is that in the Sydney football landscape as the A-League there was a strong perception from a lot of the "football community" that Club A was for people from certain backgrounds, Club B for those of another and so on.

You raise some good points mate but i have to say i disagree strongly on this point in particular, as you are only versed in the workings of the Sydney scene, Iam only so in the Melbourne example.

The racial stereotyping you speak of may have in fact been present at the time of conception regarding the A-league but I think it would be hard to disengage with the National/Ethnic component of the NSL scene. When considering clubs such as South Melbourne HELLAS, Melbourne CROATIA(Knights), Sunshine StGeorge Cross(MALTA), Preston MAKEDONIA, Brunswick Juventus etc dominated the Melbourne football landscape it would seem that large sections of the population would feel excluded from these clubs. Intentionally or not.

many people, young and old, regularly broke these pre-conceptions about what these clubs stood for and participated on all levels regardless of background but with all the A-league bashing of late, one thing i can say that i believe the modern competition has done successfully is remove the ambiguity about participation in support and engagement.

Just my opinion.

Edited by Braveheart
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You do realise that the same problems you are alluding to that were not isolated to purely West Sydney they also occurred in Melbourne in equal if not greater measure?

Of course I know many NSL supporters never will come aboard the A League (I alluded to that in post) but by and large a lot actually have come on board, in fact I think you would find numbers wise probably as many jumped on MV as those that did not.

It’s just that they tend to be the older and less vocal supporters, the ones that take their family’s to games and don’t have time to discuss Australian Football Politics on Forums.

I know for a fact you see a lot of Older guys in MV caps and stuff at most VPL games (Heaps at South games in fact) and nobody screams and hurls abuse at them.

What happened generally was those supporters who supported their NSL side for strong ethnic reasons stayed as strictly supporters of those sides in the VPL.

Whilst those prepared to follow the new league put any Ethnic Differences between them, I really fail to see why this would not of worked in West Sydney either.

Re bolded bit 1 - I was not willing to comment on Melbourne as my knowledge of what happened here when the A-League took over is very limited. All I am saying is that this has been a significant issue in Sydney which I believe was given a lot of weight when determining the direction the A-League would take with the Sydney team.

Re bolded bit 2 - A lot of fans of the NSL do attend A-League matches in Sydney as well, a lot refuse to have anything to do with Sydney FC and a number of those people will probably come on board with a Western Sydney side. I should probably have been clearer in framing where my posts come from - I believe the approach taken in Sydney was more focused on engaging those people who had an interest in Football but who weren't engaged with the NSL. It was frequently spoken of in the press at the time as their strategy for growing the game. This is one reason why a number of NSW based NSL fans resent the A-League (and again, I am only not commenting on Melbourne here because Sydney is where my experience lay) - they feel that Sydney FC made it clear that they didn't care about them or want them involved. This focus on attracting the "unengaged" is where the issues I pointed out in my previous post become part of my case - a lot of these families weren't engaging with the NSL because they didn't feel like it was for "people like them" and even had concerns about safety at matches. I personally think this weighed heavily on the direction SFC took.

Please don't think that I agree nor disagree with the approach taken with Sydney FC. I am just putting into the mix what I think was the rationale behind any decisions either way. It would have been way more convenient for me at the time if the team was based at Parramatta Stadium as I lived 15 minutes up the road!

My only strong personal opinion on this whole matter is this - they had their chance to get a Western Sydney side up and running when the league started. To do so anytime soon would be a massive blow to a struggling Sydney FC.

Oh and just wanted to say thanks for a well reasoned, non inflammatory conversation. So rare on football boards! :)

Edited by Brodebec
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I think that if you go here and look at the top 10 of the '50 largest urban centres by population' you will see where a 12-team A-League should come from.

The facts are that the FFA has completely mismanaged its 'expansion clubs' by not having any strategic or contingency plans for the first few years of the establishment of these clubs. It killed off NQF without giving it time to get its 'community ownership' going, having first refused the participation of Asian interests in the club (only to later allow overseas interests to buy Brisbane lock, stock and barrel), and looks as though it will kill off GCU.

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I think that if you go here and look at the top 10 of the '50 largest urban centres by population' you will see where a 12-team A-League should come from.

The facts are that the FFA has completely mismanaged its 'expansion clubs' by not having any strategic or contingency plans for the first few years of the establishment of these clubs. It killed off NQF without giving it time to get its 'community ownership' going, having first refused the participation of Asian interests in the club (only to later allow overseas interests to buy Brisbane lock, stock and barrel), and looks as though it will kill off GCU.

something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by_population

i think it looks good, but ......

Cairns (NQF) > Geelong

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something like this? http://en.wikipedia....a_by_population

i think it looks good, but ......

Cairns (NQF) > Geelong

Sorry, yes, that's the link. Two teams each from Sydney and Melbourne, one from each of the next eight listed centres.

Anything else is just pie in the sky.

If the FFA could bed down that 12-team league and run it for 10 years, then maybe two others could come in. But not now.

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the ffa fucked it up from the beginning, as pretty much these ^ 12 teams should have been the 'founding fathers' of the A-League. but, its much easier to say that now.

people arent happy that the league lost NQF so early, and i think the same will happen if we lose Gold Coast.

the league should never have under 10 teams, and clubs must not be rushed in, as this means they dont have enough time to engage the community, and before you know it, the club folds.

this is why canberra is a good idea to hand a license because they have already found quite a few founding members....

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Some good points have been raised. Yes, I agree that rushing a West Sydney team into next years comp may have a negative impact on the existing club. I also think rushing any team into the comp next season will cause problems, weather they be short term or long term.

The problem is that the FFA have no choice. They have to rush a new club in for next season because, lets face it Gold Coast are gone. A club from Canberra will require nurturing before it blossoms which takes time and money. Two things we dont have. A club is going to spring up virtually over night and will need to float straight away which is why WS is for me the only option.

I imagine that it is going to cause problems but hopefully Sydney is big enough to work through and overcome these problems.

As for the "racist" stuff, I wont revert back to mr "5 page essay at 3am". I think I have made my feeling pretty clear regarding ethnic clubs and their treatment.

Anyway. I think all this talk of who should go in is all academic anyway. Pretty sure the decision has already been mad and the wheels are well and truly in motion.

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Pretty big stadium for a new franchise, SFS looks bad enough half empty. Great location though, IMHO only other options are Parramatta Stadium and Campbelltown.

Did you read it? ANZ is only for the 'marquee' games (against sydney fc and visitors fc), they will use another stadium for other games, most likely Parramatta.

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Did you read it? ANZ is only for the 'marquee' games (against sydney fc and visitors fc), they will use another stadium for other games, most likely Parramatta.

yes thats right....

i posted it because it looks as things are coming together, the wheels are in motion (seinfeld hahahahah) but it looks now that they will be the mostly likely new franchise.

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Did you read it? ANZ is only for the 'marquee' games (against sydney fc and visitors fc), they will use another stadium for other games, most likely Parramatta.

Still huge. Sydneys biggest crowd this year (and in a long time) was 18000 last night against MV. A derby might get 25,000.

Stadium Australia seats close to 85000! Nearly double the capacity of the SFS.

Would love to see a Sydney derby at Parra stadium. 20,000 capacity, sold out and in an intimate stadium. Would be amazing!

Edited by Brodebec
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bit off topic but.. is there a country in the world that has a more pointless capital city than Ausrtalia with Canberra? I honestly can't think of one

Vatican City.

As for people talking about having a tiered system; there's a plethora of reason it wouldn't work - funding, promotion, space, population, demographics etc. I think Sydney would do ace personally.

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I'm claiming that Vatican City is so small that many geographers, almanacs, altases etc do not list a capital for it (although for some reason in heaps of history books it's plastered as Vatican City being the capital). For one i personally believe that it should be it's own country as it has it's own government system, passport requirements, internationally recognized boarders etc etc. Insaying all this, that's the reason I find the 'capital' of Vatican City pointless. I don't feel the geographical area is entirely in need of one unless it becomes it's own country.

Speaking of Singapore though no I don't believe that's pointless. Singapore is actually a really beautiful city. how about next time you read what i'm replying to instead of just assuming things.

Edited by pip
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I'm claiming that Vatican City is so small that many geographers, almanacs, altases etc do not list a capital for it (although for some reason in heaps of history books it's plastered as Vatican City being the capital). For one i personally believe that it should be it's own country as it has it's own government system, passport requirements, internationally recognized boarders etc etc. Insaying all this, that's the reason I find the 'capital' of Vatican City pointless. I don't feel the geographical area is entirely in need of one unless it becomes it's own country.

Speaking of Singapore though no I don't believe that's pointless. Singapore is actually a really beautiful city. how about next time you read what i'm replying to instead of just assuming things.

So according to u Singapore deserves to be a capital city because it's "Beautiful".

Vatican City not beautiful enough for u? :P

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  • 3 weeks later...

Rather thy kept Gold Coast instead of destroying a club again.

But West Sydney was always going to happen. Smart move by FFA funding it all themselves, as this is actually a club that could be profitable in the medium term.

I really dont know how a West Sydney team could end badly, but if someone will find a way to fuck it up it will be the FFA.

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