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Round 4: 'Do we really have to do this again mum?' V Welly @ AAMI Friday 7:50pm


Dylan
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Monday and Friday approaching fast.

When I was in the army stationed in Chichester England, I was sent on a coaching course and gained a  coaching licence. One of our lecturers was the great Bobby Robson. He gave a number of pieces of advice. One of the most important was never get your players to play out of position to suit your preferred formation. ALWAYS find a formation which best suits your players.  In my opinion Joyce is playing players out of position to suit his formation.

I feel, I have now got to know the players and I believe this is the formation which best suits or players. We can argue over who plays where but I still see this as the formation we need to play to get the best out of our players.

Squad.png

Edited by Inchcolm
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1 hour ago, Inchcolm said:

Monday and Friday approaching fast.

When I was in the army stationed in Chichester England, I was sent on a coaching course and gained a  coaching licence. One of our lecturers was the great Bobby Robson. He gave a number of pieces of advice. One of the most important was never get your players to play out of position to suit your preferred formation. ALWAYS find a formation which best suits your players.  In my opinion Joyce is playing players out of position to suit his formation.

I feel, I have now got to know the players and I believe this is the formation which best suits or players. We can argue over who plays where but I still see this as the formation we need to play to get the best out of our players.

Squad.png

There aren't to many coaches and or teams that can play a 3 5 2 formation. We don't have both. 

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Here is what I would go with

The obvious left field one is Atkinson straight in. He has played a few games while he was away, so I believe he will be fit enough. And it's not like Wales or Berenguer have taken their opportunity. 

Brattan goes to the bench for me, as I don't think him and baccus work well together when we have the ball, and baccus has been better over first 3 games

lineup.png

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14 minutes ago, neio said:

Here is what I would go with

The obvious left field one is Atkinson straight in. He has played a few games while he was away, so I believe he will be fit enough. And it's not like Wales or Berenguer have taken their opportunity. 

Brattan goes to the bench for me, as I don't think him and baccus work well together when we have the ball, and baccus has been better over first 3 games

lineup.png

Definitely agree with Baccus and Griffiths playing together there and unfortunately, Brattan to the bench. As I've alluded to before, I think the Sydney cdm duo set that team up and believe Baccus and Griffiths can do the same for us.

Last season, someone posted (maybe @playmaker?) that we should play a narrow 4-2-2-2 formation. In my usual style, I abused the crap out of them. Happy to put my hand up and say sorry, as I'm starting to warm to that particular formation working for us - or at least it can be switched to if the default isn't working in a game. It needs Jamo and De Laet getting up and down, but it may just help link our defence to attack better and give Bruno some much needed support.

 

Edited by rass
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I don't know the best formation and with what players. We have a lot of players who seem to me to have similar qualities. I think our issue is much more that we're so slow to move the ball. We just don't get the ball into the penalty area often enough, let alone the goal area, to be a threat. Watch all the other teams - they move the ball forwards with pace and create chances. We have to do a lot more of the sort of stuff that saw McGree's goal against Victory.

Even if we don't win, by being more attacking at least we'll give the crowd some hope. I don't think I've ever seen a more boring match than the Sydney game. It's only the second time that I've ever walked out of the ground before the final whistle - the only previous time when I was just a lad and had to cycle 30 miles back to boarding school in the dark.

This is not just about winning or losing. We are driving people away from the game by our style and attitude.

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Atkinson is a RB in my book. Seems to look a bit overwhelmed in any other spot. However i would have him on the wing befoe McGree. As it has already been stated, joyce plays players out of their natural positions which creates unnecessary errors just to play a certain style or formation. This creates more pressure on our players and not enough on the opposition players. They pounce on the small errors of judgement/ positioning/ball speed etc that players in unfamiliar positions make. We are making a rod for our back when we do this, giving the opposition an advantage. It needs to stop. Next Brattsy will be on the wing and Delbridge at 6. IMO this approach to players is  why Joyce has something like 10 midfielders (including Scholarship Lads) as he believes that a modern midfielder can play virtually any position. 

Edited by citymad
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Our pathetic display on Friday had very little to do with formation or personal. We could have played whatever system you can name and whatever player you want and the result would have been the same. To me it was the intent and lack of closing down space without the ball and the lack of making space with. It's a basic fundamental that if not done and the other team does you will get smashed. For 90 minutes we stood off and gave them way too much space and the when we had the ball (which was the majority) the players in front of the ball carrier didn't work hard enough to have any influence. 

We have enough good players and smart enough coaches to be able to do the basics better but for the life of me I can't understand how collectively the entire playing group and coaching staff fucked up so badly. 

 

Edited by Jovan
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1 hour ago, Jovan said:

Our pathetic display on Friday had very little to do with formation or personal. We could have played whatever system you can name and whatever player you want and the result would have been the same. To me it was the intent and lack of closing down space without the ball and the lack of making space with. It's a basic fundamental that if not done and the other team does you will get smashed. For 90 minutes we stood off and gave them way too much space and the when we had the ball (which was the majority) the players in front of the ball carrier didn't work hard enough to have any influence. 

We have enough good players and smart enough coaches to be able to do the basics better but for the life of me I can't understand how collectively the entire playing group and coaching staff fucked up so badly. 

 

Finally someone sees it.

Sydney were up our arse the moment we had the ball. Whereas when they had the ball, all the City players were hold their position with no press. That has to be a tatic.

My (uneducated) theory is that the game plan was to let Sydney have the ball make them do all the work, hence making them tired after the 3 day turn-around. If that was correct, then it backfired horribly and we had no plan B.

Edited by haz
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25 minutes ago, haz said:

Finally someone sees it.

Sydney were up our arse the moment we had the ball. Whereas when they had the ball, all the City players were hold their position with no press. That has to be a tatic.

My (uneducated) theory is that the game plan was to let Sydney have the ball make them do all the work, hence making them tired after the 3 day turn-around. If that was correct, then it backfired horribly and we had no plan B.

We had 60% possession and Wazza made a point post match that it was a good thing, so I assume controlling possession was the plan.

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On 11/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, kingofhearts said:

Drastic measures need to be taken. This week i am inviting 10+ mates to come with me into the Melbirnians.

We will sit the entire game, not making a fucking noise, than maybe scot munn and the rest of the fuckwits who run this club

will understand that this club has lost the fans. Please everyone in Melburnians join in. 

After one loss you're doing that? Come on dude seriously...

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11 hours ago, fensaddler said:

The obvious right winger we have is Najjarine? 

What sort of minutes did he play with under 20s? Joyce hates when players go away and miss training etc. I'd love to see him in this week but if he is at all behind in training he won't be picked 

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28 minutes ago, neio said:

What sort of minutes did he play with under 20s? Joyce hates when players go away and miss training etc. I'd love to see him in this week but if he is at all behind in training he won't be picked 

IMO this is again an error of judgement on the part of Joyce. All the players in the squad should be perfectly fit at this stage of a season. Training for the seniors started on 5th July, and if they aren't fit now either they've been injured, or WTF do they do all day out there at Bundoora? I just don't believe that a week away with a national team doing slightly different training routines renders them unsuitable to be picked in the City team.

In the case of Najjarine I understand he had a dislocated shoulder, so he could be slightly behind the others, but I doubt it. The youth players are playing most of the year, with NYL and NPL.

IMO this "training" thing is just another smokescreen put up by City as an excuse for under-par performances. Against Sydney they looked as though they were all half asleep, despite all Joyce's "training." More City bullshit as far as I am concerned.

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On 05/11/2018 at 0:15 AM, n i k o said:

Or the Jets game where we were down a man (or were they down a man) 

The Jets were down to 10 men for most of the game, we had 23 shots on goal to their 2. They won the game 0-2

41 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

IMO this is again an error of judgement on the part of Joyce. All the players in the squad should be perfectly fit at this stage of a season. Training for the seniors started on 5th July, and if they aren't fit now either they've been injured, or WTF do they do all day out there at Bundoora? I just don't believe that a week away with a national team doing slightly different training routines renders them unsuitable to be picked in the City team.

In the case of Najjarine I understand he had a dislocated shoulder, so he could be slightly behind the others, but I doubt it. The youth players are playing most of the year, with NYL and NPL.

IMO this "training" thing is just another smokescreen put up by City as an excuse for under-par performances. Against Sydney they looked as though they were all half asleep, despite all Joyce's "training." More City bullshit as far as I am concerned.

Careful jw, you're starting to sound like me now!

 

Edited by belaguttman
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9 hours ago, haz said:

Possesion % is just a number. It depends on what you do with it

You just pass it around in your own half, don't you?

If the ball accidentally moves up to the front third, recirculate it.

If you accidentally move the ball quickly and an attacking opportunity has developed then pass to an opponent.

Pass to Bruno if:

  • he's in the middle third
  • double-teamed
  • both
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15 hours ago, haz said:

Possesion % is just a number. It depends on what you do with it

Totally agree, but it was Wazza's plan to have most of the ball and not give it up, unfortunately it may be the only plan Wazza has.

As I have said many times, I would prefer to have the least possession at this level because of the high error rates.

What Wazza has to realise is that we can't play like EPL or EFL teams do because the players aren't that skilled.

Too many errors means too many opportunities for the opposition to take advantage of players out of position, the other teams know it hence why they play a high pressuring defensive counter attack and just wait patiently.

Anyway whatever the case, it needs to be addressed quickly.

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7 hours ago, jw1739 said:

IMO this is again an error of judgement on the part of Joyce. All the players in the squad should be perfectly fit at this stage of a season. Training for the seniors started on 5th July, and if they aren't fit now either they've been injured, or WTF do they do all day out there at Bundoora? I just don't believe that a week away with a national team doing slightly different training routines renders them unsuitable to be picked in the City team.

In the case of Najjarine I understand he had a dislocated shoulder, so he could be slightly behind the others, but I doubt it. The youth players are playing most of the year, with NYL and NPL.

IMO this "training" thing is just another smokescreen put up by City as an excuse for under-par performances. Against Sydney they looked as though they were all half asleep, despite all Joyce's "training." More City bullshit as far as I am concerned.

Spot on. 

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2 hours ago, playmaker said:

Totally agree, but it was Wazza's plan to have most of the ball and not give it up, unfortunately it may be the only plan Wazza has.

As I have said many times, I would prefer to have the least possession at this level because of the high error rates.

What Wazza has to realise is that we can't play like EPL or EFL teams do because the players aren't that skilled.

Too many errors means too many opportunities for the opposition to take advantage of players out of position, the other teams know it hence why they play a high pressuring defensive counter attack and just wait patiently.

Anyway whatever the case, it needs to be addressed quickly.

It' the "City way", mandated by CFG isn't it? I don't think it'll change any time soon.

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4 hours ago, playmaker said:

Totally agree, but it was Wazza's plan to have most of the ball and not give it up, unfortunately it may be the only plan Wazza has.

As I have said many times, I would prefer to have the least possession at this level because of the high error rates.

What Wazza has to realise is that we can't play like EPL or EFL teams do because the players aren't that skilled.

Too many errors means too many opportunities for the opposition to take advantage of players out of position, the other teams know it hence why they play a high pressuring defensive counter attack and just wait patiently.

Anyway whatever the case, it needs to be addressed quickly.

On this stats thing, the web site aleaguestats.com has interesting info. Summarising, teams earn more points by scoring and shooting. Simply possessing the ball or passing accurately is not as strongly correlated with earning points.

30806405197_ec50862e08_o.jpg

A couple of graphs from the website. Shots from inside the box are correlated with points earnt but passing accuracy in attacking half is moderately/medium correlated.

30806504017_ed8b795068_o.jpg

45696450632_379fdd4463_o.jpg

 

Moral of the story, possession and passing mean nothing if you don't pull the trigger. We need to start pulling the trigger rather than passing backwards and sideways. This is where Novillo was such a beast. He took every opportunity to run at defenders and pull the trigger.

 

Edited by HEARTinator
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3 minutes ago, Originalmeme said:

we have bort, the best cb in the league

As much as I love him, Bort cant be two people

 

EDIT (Improvement):

Bort is not Tasmanian, he doesn't have two heads to cover the arial work of two players.

Edited by haz
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51 minutes ago, HEARTinator said:

On this stats thing, the web site aleaguestats.com has interesting info. Summarising, teams earn more points by scoring and shooting. Simply possessing the ball or passing accurately is not as strongly correlated with earning points.

30806405197_ec50862e08_o.jpg

A couple of graphs from the website. Shots from inside the box are correlated with points earnt but passing accuracy in attacking half is moderately/medium correlated.

30806504017_ed8b795068_o.jpg

45696450632_379fdd4463_o.jpg

 

Moral of the story, possession and passing mean nothing if you don't pull the trigger. We need to start pulling the trigger rather than passing backwards and sideways. This is where Novillo was such a beast. He took every opportunity to run at defenders and pull the trigger.

 

Here's an interesting analysis that backs up this point

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On 05/11/2018 at 8:38 PM, Inchcolm said:

In my mind the starting formation is; "a back 5 with attacking full backs"  "a narrow diamond midfield" and "1 striker".  I am sure Joyce and the players can coach and the three sections of the formation

The role of each player in the formation and their movement is more important than the nominal static formation. If we had good movement off the ball I'd be keen to include Brattan who is a very good player when he has someone to pass the ball to.

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On 04/11/2018 at 10:35 PM, kingofhearts said:

Drastic measures need to be taken. This week i am inviting 10+ mates to come with me into the Melbirnians.

We will sit the entire game, not making a fucking noise, than maybe scot munn and the rest of the fuckwits who run this club

will understand that this club has lost the fans. Please everyone in Melburnians join in. 

Just stand there and don’t make a peep like the rest of the blokes in the terrace.

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