rass Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 2 hours ago, xXCiTyZeNXx said: Did you watch the game saturday night. Sydney play counter attack through the centre with overlapping full backs. Thats how they have played the last two season. We have played this possession shit the last 3 seasons and all we have won is a little cup. We have tried to play similar to Man City and has not worked. Joyce is trying different methods so we cannot expect to win this season but on Saturday we played like last season and we got pounded because possession doesnt work in the A league. I am not saying to go with four centre backs and play through the middle but we need to test out different tactics and one of those tactics is playing through the middle. I agree we need to be flexible but you did say 4 defenders at all times with no full backs pushing up and a narrow 2-2-2 formation. You mentioned breaking quickly but those players you mentioned are not quick or quick releasing players. Also the teams that I presume you mean that counter best have fast, wide outlets - I.e Zullo, Barbarouses, etc... This is why I laughed. Yeah I saw the game and I saw a familiar pattern with a lot of our games - we fell behind early. As @playmaker's article said, counter attack football is great but you need to be flexible to suit the game scenario - and it's pretty hard to play counter attacking football a/ when you're behind and b/ when teams are happy to sit and defend deep against you. It's all well to say we need to play counter attack but it's only one tactic of many a team should be able to play and not rely solely on. Against Sydney, we started brightly. Moved the ball fairly quickly and created several good chances, notably Budzinski and Arzani. If one of those was converted and we took a lead, then yeah, we could've played then on the counter. But Cmon, pretty hard to when you're chasing a game... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, jw1739 said: Thanks for the correction. Not really any bias. The father once supported a club that's been all over every division in the old Football League, the young son born here. Have watched Victory before, but not a member. Okay that clears it a bit, I stand by my point that HAL teams will never attract new members (not related to current memebers etc.) just from their style/skill level. When I knew I was moving to Melbourne I had to think 'Do I support Victory, or do I support Heart?'. Legit the only reason I chose Heart was because they were the underdog. What a boring way to choose 'your club'. Now of course I would never go to the dark side or change teams for the rest of my life. But for other new potential members, theres no initial connection to any club (maybe except Wellington because thats the whole of New Zealand), in comparison to much older overseas clubs which were started by the working class, religous groups etc. They provide more of a initial connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbourne White Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, haz said: Okay that clears it a bit, I stand by my point that HAL teams will never attract new members (not related to current memebers etc.) just from their style/skill level. When I knew I was moving to Melbourne I had to think 'Do I support Victory, or do I support Heart?'. Legit the only reason I chose Heart was because they were the underdog. What a boring way to choose 'your club'. Now of course I would never go to the dark side or change teams for the rest of my life. But for other new potential members, theres no initial connection to any club (maybe except Wellington because thats the whole of New Zealand), in comparison to much older overseas clubs which were started by the working class, religous groups etc. They provide more of a initial connection. I agree to a certain extent but City do do a lot of good work appealing to the youth and doing community projects. Victory have the "original" team appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Melbourne White said: I agree to a certain extent but City do do a lot of good work appealing to the youth and doing community projects. Victory have the "original" team appeal. Yea I think these days for any new members (without parents/siblings already signed up) is that their kids are excited because 'melbourne city came to my school/club, they are so great and I got free tickets' etc Then as the kids want a membership the parents get one too. Then after a generation or two (assuming the HAL is still alive) we will have a few extra members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, rass said: I agree we need to be flexible but you did say 4 defenders at all times with no full backs pushing up and a narrow 2-2-2 formation. You mentioned breaking quickly but those players you mentioned are not quick or quick releasing players. Also the teams that I presume you mean that counter best have fast, wide outlets - I.e Zullo, Barbarouses, etc... This is why I laughed. Yeah I saw the game and I saw a familiar pattern with a lot of our games - we fell behind early. As @playmaker's article said, counter attack football is great but you need to be flexible to suit the game scenario - and it's pretty hard to play counter attacking football a/ when you're behind and b/ when teams are happy to sit and defend deep against you. It's all well to say we need to play counter attack but it's only one tactic of many a team should be able to play and not rely solely on. Against Sydney, we started brightly. Moved the ball fairly quickly and created several good chances, notably Budzinski and Arzani. If one of those was converted and we took a lead, then yeah, we could've played then on the counter. But Cmon, pretty hard to when you're chasing a game... Possession football is fine when you're 3-0 up and 10 to go, but not when you're chasing the game. You won't score unless you attack and actually shoot for goal, and neither will you score many if you do everything at a snail's pace. It's the latter that shit's me about City. Our players' first instinct seems to be to pass the ball sideways or backwards. At times against Sydney we went all the way back from their penalty area without even having a shot. It's a disease with many in the team. In contrast Sydney moved fluently from defence to a goal-scoring chance with 3-4 quick passes and some lovely running. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffplz Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, haz said: 'melbourne city came to my school/club, they are so great and I got free tickets' etc Then as the kids want a membership the parents get one too. Then after a generation or two (assuming the HAL is still alive) we will have a few extra members. Can vouch for this a bit, though i'm not that young I supported melbourne heart because one of the boys from my youth club trained with and almost got a senior contract with the heart. That scouting alone made the entire club (Galatasaray youth academy in fawkner) heart and now city fans. In fact I have no idea where he is now, anyone know wtf is going on with Yaren Sozer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rass Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, jw1739 said: Possession football is fine when you're 3-0 up and 10 to go, but not when you're chasing the game. You won't score unless you attack and actually shoot for goal, and neither will you score many if you do everything at a snail's pace. It's the latter that shit's me about City. Our players' first instinct seems to be to pass the ball sideways or backwards. At times against Sydney we went all the way back from their penalty area without even having a shot. It's a disease with many in the team. In contrast Sydney moved fluently from defence to a goal-scoring chance with 3-4 quick passes and some lovely running. I think that's the point there - differentiating between counter and moving the ball quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, haz said: Yea I think these days for any new members (without parents/siblings already signed up) is that their kids are excited because 'melbourne city came to my school/club, they are so great and I got free tickets' etc Then as the kids want a membership the parents get one too. Then after a generation or two (assuming the HAL is still alive) we will have a few extra members. I'm not convinced that that sort of appeal still works TBH. There are too many distractions for the modern child and so many other "entertainments" for them to feel a gut-wrenching allegiance to a football club that brings you back to the match time and time again. What was it Nick Hornby wrote? “I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women: suddenly, inexplicably, uncritically, giving no thought to the pain or disruption it would bring with it.” That's for oldies like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) The thing that makes possession-based football effective is varying the pace of the ball and player movement - we don't do that, as well as player movement without the ball, making diagonal runs to receive the ball or to create space for other players. We don't do that either and so the ball just gets recirculated until we lose possession in midfield. It's not that possession-based football is no longer effective, more that badly implemented possession-based football has never been effective Edited February 13, 2018 by belaguttman 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playmaker Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I think we need to also acknowledge that we have no real striker and were missing our midfield sweeper in Malik for the game. Really in hindsight we were always going to struggle last match. Also we had no real defensive options on the bench. IMO Ross's absence and Malik's exclusion has really thrown a spanner in the works and any manager would have struggled to deal with it. Arzani vs Zullo was never going to end well and Jacobsen moving to DM is always a comprise. Also if Jamieson was injured then it explains his suboptimal performance. My real concern was Brattan's game and his tendency to revert back to indirect and slow ball movement. Also our set piece plays and corners are really bad and create zero opportunities to the point where a basic play can not even reach the penalty spot area which is basic schoolboy stuff. Until Bruno is up to speed, Wazza has a hard task to create a gameplan to score goals so I would be setting up a defensive block and play hoofball with Arzani and Fitzy up forward using speed to get behind the defenders with Bud lingering outside the box. Boring I know, but we need to minimize the damage until we get a real striker on the pitch for 90 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn Asunder Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 Interesting how since this issue was raised on social media about a month ago the smurfs have come down from 15 fouls per yellow card to 9.37. Shocking how many red cards we've had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn Asunder Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, belaguttman said: Interesting how since this issue was raised on social media about a month ago the smurfs have come down from 15 fouls per yellow card to 9.37. Shocking how many red cards we've had Love to get to the bottom of that one .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, belaguttman said: Shocking how many red cards we've had From memory at least 50%+ of red cards given this season (in total) were from VAR, especially for CCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malloy Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Torn Asunder said: Is the foul count those actually given or does it include fouls that should have been given. Because Sydney seem to have a fair few of the latter, which would make the stats even worse reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisphantomfortress Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, malloy said: Is the foul count those actually given or does it include fouls that should have been given. Because Sydney seem to have a fair few of the latter, which would make the stats even worse reading. That is what concerns me most about the bias toward them - and why I don't think they'll go far in the ACL. Sydney seem to get away with a lot of fouls with out bookings ALONG WITH a lot of fouls that don't get called. Worth noting their one red card was for the retaliation to being spat at too, an off the ball incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said: That is what concerns me most about the bias toward them - and why I don't think they'll go far in the ACL. Sydney seem to get away with a lot of fouls with out bookings ALONG WITH a lot of fouls that don't get called. Worth noting their one red card was for the retaliation to being spat at too, an off the ball incident. ...and Manny Muscat got one red card for a second yellow against Bobo who, as usual, escaped any sanction after raking his studs down Manny's shin in an off the ball incident Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said: That is what concerns me most about the bias toward them - and why I don't think they'll go far in the ACL. Sydney seem to get away with a lot of fouls with out bookings ALONG WITH a lot of fouls that don't get called. Worth noting their one red card was for the retaliation to being spat at too, an off the ball incident. I dont think theres a conspiracy, just the usual thing where HAL Referees are unconsciously bias because Sydney are so dominate. Happens all the time in big leagues, Man U (during their dominate years) are an example. Plus Sydney foul well by rotating players as well as commitng 'minor' professional fouls, unlike the PK rugby tackle a few years. Overall it comes down to the quality of the HAL Refs. If they cant see this consistant rotating fouling, then they shouldnt have their licenses. Edited February 14, 2018 by haz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playmaker Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 35 minutes ago, haz said: it comes down to the quality of the HAL Refs Enough said. Can't see why we can't get ref's from Asia in their off season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartOfCity Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 I know im probably in the wrong thread here but i cant wait for City to play champions league! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) Annnnnnd Sydney get their first yellow after 16 minutes and 3 fouls in the ACL being played right now Edited February 14, 2018 by haz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartOfCity Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, haz said: Annnnnnd Sydney get their first yellow after 16 minutes and 3 fouls in the ACL being played right now How good is the non bias reffing 😍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, HeartOfCity said: How good is the non bias reffing 😍 2 Yellows from 6 fouls, 29 minutes (The HAL refeering is not bias. The general quality is shit, Sydney are smart and make the most out of the situation) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughJass Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, haz said: Annnnnnd Sydney get their first yellow after 16 minutes and 3 fouls in the ACL being played right now Both o'neil and brillante yellows by 28 mins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartOfCity Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, haz said: 2 Yellows from 6 fouls, 29 minutes (The HAL refeering is not bias. The general quality is shit, Sydney are smart and make the most out of the situation) I know ha ha i am just being a whinging sod. It is good to see the fouls being called out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 2 hours ago, haz said: 2 Yellows from 6 fouls, 29 minutes (The HAL refeering is not bias. The general quality is shit, Sydney are smart and make the most out of the situation) It's much harder to be 'The Invincibles' when you get penalised for fouling.. It's a major disruption to Arnold's gameplan Lovin' the Schadenfreude 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 44 minutes ago, belaguttman said: Lovin' the Schadenfreude Cheeky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imtellingyou Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 Sydney is the best team for the last two seasons, obviously. Everything else is blah blah blah. We were up in Sydney and still lost the game. As elsewhere, big clubs (by results, members, ownership) are treated better. Above statistics shows that we are next to Sydney and we aren't liked by many also. Bottom teams are always liked the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted February 15, 2018 Report Share Posted February 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Imtellingyou said: Sydney is the best team for the last two seasons, obviously. Everything else is blah blah blah. We were up in Sydney and still lost the game. As elsewhere, big clubs (by results, members, ownership) are treated better. Above statistics shows that we are next to Sydney and we aren't liked by many also. Bottom teams are always liked the most. My comment was serious though, persistent fouling is an integral part of their game plan, it's been aided by the reluctance of refs to penalise persistent fouling in successful sides. Last night they were unable to break down Suwong's game with their persistent fouling as the ref rewarded their efforts with yellow cards. Suddenly they are much less invincible. Arnold may need a Plan B for ACL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imtellingyou Posted February 15, 2018 Report Share Posted February 15, 2018 It's an individual opinion. Victory looks as a very aggressive side and A-league stats show that. We made (by stats number) much more fouls than Sydney. We also have players who 'constantly' commit fouls, like Muscat and Malik. Brattan tackles a lot but he's skilful in doing that. Bart tackles more than Wilko. I'm not sure that there is a ref which can reverse 0:4 and total points difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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